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Judge sends children to Australia with mother and tells father to talk to them via th

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    #122
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    OUTOFSYNC wrote: »
    WebCam interactions form an important link between myself and my 3 year old.

    She is in North America with her mother, who did not return to Ireland after a holiday, 2 years ago.

    I've made 17 transatlantic trips and have been to court numerous times which is still ongoing. The bond has been maintained with my daughter and she is still delighted everytime she sees me [much to her mothers annoyance].

    I do webcam 3 times a week - Its been a success in that the visual connection with the regular physical contact have maintained the relationship thus far despite what Ive been lead to believe by child psychologists. The mother co-operates in that she switches the computer on but still occasionally sabotages the calls - I also worry as the kid grows how to maintain her interest.

    That said I am very glad that skype exists.

    Wouldnt you be even gladder if your daughter was in the same city or country as you?

    I know with citizenship problems this may be impossible.

    How did life get so sad?

    Call me old fashioned but people should work it out for the kids, bar cruelty. If you dont get on, work it out. It's worth it and the kids are worth it. Not lecturing you specifically, but seriously I dont think people have notion of what the consequences of their decisions like this do to their kids.

    Your post makes me sad.


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    #123
    OUTOFSYNC
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭OUTOFSYNC


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Wouldnt you be even gladder if your daughter was in the same city or country as you?

    I know with citizenship problems this may be impossible.

    How did life get so sad?

    Call me old fashioned but people should work it out for the kids, bar cruelty. If you dont get on, work it out. It's worth it and the kids are worth it. Not lecturing you specifically, but seriously I dont think people have notion of what the consequences of their decisions like this do to their kids.

    Your post makes me sad.


    I would love if we could work it out....all attempts thus far have failed. I focused on the kid in the short term and it has worked [for her]. However I am exhausted and pursing it through court was my last resort.


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    #124
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    OUTOFSYNC wrote: »
    I would love if we could work it out....all attempts thus far have failed. I focused on the kid in the short term and it has worked [for her]. However I am exhausted and pursing it through court was my last resort.

    I don't know if you are talking about Canada or the US when you say North America but in the US the courts are never a last resort. Without the courts, no one has any rights at all so you have to get the courts to back you up. Thats just how its done, even if you get it done through mediation or whatever, the agreements still need to be backed by the courts, they are always a direct part of the process and not a last resort.


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    #125
    polly78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 139 ✭✭polly78


    I completely agree with this judgement. Unless someone can prove that the mother is unfit to be a mother then she is the most beneficial carer for the child. If her life takes her into another country so be it. I think men are sometimes a bit naive or choose not to think about this when they have children. It's ultimately a girls choice to have a child, she controls most of the planning and production of (sorry that that sounds cold). I would stand by this opinion regardless if it were my brother or my own son in a similar position.

    BTW I would always insist on a child having a relationship with his/her father ordinarily.


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    #126
    Klingon Hamlet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    polly78 wrote: »
    I completely agree with this judgement. Unless someone can prove that the mother is unfit to be a mother then she is the most beneficial carer for the child. If her life takes her into another country so be it. I think men are sometimes a bit naive or choose not to think about this when they have children. It's ultimately a girls choice to have a child, she controls most of the planning and production of (sorry that that sounds cold). I would stand by this opinion regardless if it were my brother or my own son in a similar position.

    BTW I would always insist on a child having a relationship with his/her father ordinarily.

    Why is a mother automatically the most beneficial? Surely that's sexism at it's worst?! I love my son to bits and I care for him just as well as his mother does.

    Are you saying gender defines ability to parent?!


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    #127
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Klingon Hamlet wrote: »
    Why is a mother automatically the most beneficial? Surely that's sexism at it's worst?! I love my son to bits and I care for him just as well as his mother does.

    Are you saying gender defines ability to parent?!

    Its also sexism that the woman has to carry and nurse the child? Is it sexism that she has to give birth to the child? Is it sexism that she takes all the risks to do so?

    Surely that's sexism at its worst.


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    #128
    Klingon Hamlet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Its also sexism that the woman has to carry and nurse the child? Is it sexism that she has to give birth to the child? Is it sexism that she takes all the risks to do so?

    Surely that's sexism at its worst.

    Are you for real:rolleyes::P


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    #129
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Klingon Hamlet wrote: »
    Are you for real:rolleyes::P

    Just because something is sexist doesnt make it inaccurate, the same can go for any IST comment, like the Irish like to drink. Racist, but true.


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    #130
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Time to get a room you two. Take it to PM and get back on topic please.

    I think this thread has a limited lifespan due to it being dragged off topic too often. OUTOFSYNC has brought a new perspective to the thread - let's go with that instead of man vs woman debates.


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    #131
    thebullkf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    Macros42 wrote: »
    Time to get a room you two. Take it to PM and get back on topic please.

    I think this thread has a limited lifespan due to it being dragged off topic too often. OUTOFSYNC has brought a new perspective to the thread - let's go with that instead of man vs woman debates.

    one of the reasons i stopped posting here- that and metrovelvets refusal to answer certain questions,or respond to certain queries but instead make wild generalisations..
    On topic- OUTOFSYNC all i can say is fair play:):):).

    Must be extremely tough:( but you've made trojan efforts thus far to stay in touch. One hopes the mother realises this,and hopefully you can bring her over here for an extended holiday?


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    #132
    padr81
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭padr81


    polly78 wrote: »
    I completely agree with this judgement. Unless someone can prove that the mother is unfit to be a mother then she is the most beneficial carer for the child. If her life takes her into another country so be it. I think men are sometimes a bit naive or choose not to think about this when they have children. It's ultimately a girls choice to have a child, she controls most of the planning and production of (sorry that that sounds cold). I would stand by this opinion regardless if it were my brother or my own son in a similar position.

    BTW I would always insist on a child having a relationship with his/her father ordinarily.

    Its nothing to do with the mother being unfit its to do with the father being equally fit to raise the child and not getting his fair chance. Are you for real that a fit mother is a more beneficial parent than a fit father?

    No man with custody of a child would be allowed to bring them away from a fit mother with normal access so why should a woman? No I'm afraid when you have a child your life should become secondary to theirs and maybe i'm old fashioned but dragging them away from another fit parent isn't in any way beneficial. I know plenty of fathers who've had to turn down jobs in other countries, so they could be with their kids. I know 2 Polish dads to irish kids, who'd love to go home "where their life takes them", but they put their kids first.

    As for its ultimately a girls choice well I'm afraid its not. In fact i'd say most children are either the choice of both parents or on occasion the choice of neither.

    And how exactly does she control the production?


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    #133
    polly78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 139 ✭✭polly78


    Yes I am for real in my opinion a fit mother is without doubt a more benficial parent than a fit father.

    It is ultimately the girl who controls whether or not to have a baby. It develops inside her and this, imo creates a bond far stronger than that of a man with his children.


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    #134
    Klingon Hamlet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    Would you reckon there's a possibility of the father getting his children back? By applying to the Australian courts for full custody.


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    #135
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Based on the minimal info we have, no I wouldnt. I could see a court order for her to bring the kids back for visits or for her to be open to him visiting the kids in Australian or when they are old enough for them to travel as unaccompanied minors to Britain during school breaks. But full custody, sincerely doubt it.


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    #136
    polly78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 139 ✭✭polly78


    Lets not forget that the children wanted to go with their mother.
    Also a year is not really that long and the guy would probably have more quality time with the kiddies in a whole month than in weekend visits. I would think a man is better equipped to deal with this than a girl would be.


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    #137
    Klingon Hamlet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    polly78 wrote: »
    I would think a man is better equipped to deal with this than a girl would be.

    You would be wrong. Being a dad's the same as being a mum in every way, seriously. It's a shame they can't all be close:(


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    #138
    polly78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 139 ✭✭polly78


    Of course it is, as all relationship breakdowns with kids involved are.

    I don't think you can categorically state that what you quoted me on is wrong as you do not know the feelings of a mother (I also don't fully know a guys) I am fairly confident though and would, I suspect, be backed by the majority in that a girl having carried and given birth to the child feels more.
    My own ex partner would have loved to have had full custody of our son but he would never have separated me from my child (this guy is no pushover either) and would agree with you on how strong a fathers feelings are. I have always respected and admired him for recognising that difference. I also believe that if I wanted to leave the country for very real reasons he would not prevent it.


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    #139
    rolly1
    Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭rolly1


    polly78 wrote: »
    My own ex partner would have loved to have had full custody of our son but he would never have separated me from my child (this guy is no pushover either) and would agree with you on how strong a fathers feelings are. I have always respected and admired him for recognising that difference. I also believe that if I wanted to leave the country for very real reasons he would not prevent it.

    I wouldn't bet on it. Having spoken to many men who have gone through this, most of whom who would have had a reasonable relationship with the mother beforehand, everything changes and the battle lines harden very quickly once as this form of parental terrorism is visited upon them.

    I hope you succeed outofsync, best of luck.


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    #140
    OUTOFSYNC
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭OUTOFSYNC


    Klingon Hamlet wrote: »
    Would you reckon there's a possibility of the father getting his children back? By applying to the Australian courts for full custody.

    I dont know the circumstances of the case but even if the fathers relationship wasn't embryonic I very much doubt it. Although things are changing (very slowly) it is still rare for courts to remove children from their mother. The mother has to really really mess up for the father to get custody.

    I dont know whats going to happen in my own case, my daughter is still close to me (loves when I am there with her). Webcam works in that she sees me - sometimes she loves it - sometimes she is distracted. Longer term - I worry especially as her mother is still so resistant.


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    #141
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    At least North America isnt Australia. Assuming its the east coast, its a five or six hour trip.

    Why is her mother resistent?

    How often can one do the Australia trips realistically speaking? Its expensive and its a HUGE trip. Once a year? The rest is SKYPE?

    I wonder if judges and emmigrants would think twice about these things if SKYPE didnt exist.


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    #142
    OUTOFSYNC
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭OUTOFSYNC


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    At least North America isnt Australia. Assuming its the east coast, its a five or six hour trip.

    Why is her mother resistent?

    How often can one do the Australia trips realistically speaking? Its expensive and its a HUGE trip. Once a year? The rest is SKYPE?

    I wonder if judges and emmigrants would think twice about these things if SKYPE didnt exist.

    Its the east coast but realistically it takes 24 to 36 hours to get there - and about 18 hours to get back [Theres always an over night on the way over and I sleep on the plane on the way back].

    In terms of skype - I can glad it exists (and face time) and whatever else will become available over the next few years, however it is no substitute for a real relationship. A Regular physcial presence is essential.

    I dont know why the mother is so resistant ? Malice? Difficult family background? she has no relationship with her father? Its inconvenient....I dont know I can only guess.

    I dont want this for my kid.


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    #143
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    No body wants this for their kid. But you may have to accept it, like we all do for the cards dealt to them.

    I feel for everyone in these circumstances.

    Its exhausting and painful for the dads.

    The kids are missing out.

    Its disruptive and painful for the mother [you know.. the tear wiping and acting out after daddy leaves...]

    It sucks. Everyone is a loser.

    I knew a guy a flew to London from NYC every weekend to see his kid. He would have emigrated if he could have, but its not that easy, [US isnt on the former colony list of citizenship entitlements]


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    #144
    rolly1
    Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭rolly1


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    No body wants this for their kid. But you may have to accept it, like we all do for the cards dealt to them.

    I feel for everyone in these circumstances.

    Its exhausting and painful for the dads.

    The kids are missing out.

    Its disruptive and painful for the mother [you know.. the tear wiping and acting out after daddy leaves...]

    It sucks. Everyone is a loser.

    I knew a guy a flew to London from NYC every weekend to see his kid. He would have emigrated if he could have, but its not that easy, [US isnt on the former colony list of citizenship entitlements]

    Back up the truck there a minute. From what OUTOFSYNC has posted his daughter was taken without his consent and without any court process to live permanently in another country.
    I assume from his posts that he is now going through the courts to prove that she did in fact commit the criminal act of child abduction.

    My level of acceptance of what is potentially criminal behaviour is zero.

    If someone, for the want of a better word, robbed your child would you just accept it too? This thread gets more jaw dropping by the day..


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    #145
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    It takes two years to establish habitual residency in Ireland. If she was under two the custodial parent can take her back to North America especially if the custodial parent was already a resident of North America.

    For all you know she went back when she was pregnant.


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    #146
    polly78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 139 ✭✭polly78


    rolly1 wrote: »
    This thread gets more jaw dropping by the day..

    I said in an earlier post that men are naive or don't stop to think before the child is born of these possible scenarios.


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    #147
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    polly78 wrote: »
    I said in an earlier post that men are naive or don't stop to think before the child is born of these possible scenarios.

    Obviously women don't either!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #148
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    For all you know she went back when she was pregnant.
    She went two years ago and the child is three. I'm not a maths professor but I can work that one out.
    polly78 wrote: »
    I said in an earlier post that men are naive or don't stop to think before the child is born of these possible scenarios.
    K-9 wrote: »
    Obviously women don't either!
    Enough.
    I really am loathe to close this thread because there is some value in the debate and some good points made.
    So the next "boys rule girls drool" argument is going to result in a vacation from this forum. No more warnings.
    rolly1 wrote: »
    This thread gets more jaw dropping by the day..
    I can't agree more. While loathe to close the thread it's dancing on the line and as I said earlier it's lifespan is ticking away. It's just taking up too much time now.


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    #149
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Macros42 wrote: »
    She went two years ago and the child is three. I'm not a maths professor but I can work that one out.




    Enough.
    I really am loathe to close this thread because there is some value in the debate and some good points made.
    So the next "boys rule girls drool" argument is going to result in a vacation from this forum. No more warnings.


    I can't agree more. While loathe to close the thread it's dancing on the line and as I said earlier it's lifespan is ticking away. It's just taking up too much time now.

    Apologies, I was being too flippant, generalising about a generalisation.

    It's just a very sad case all round and an example of unfair life can turn out, not much else though!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #150
    deceit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭deceit


    I was in the same situation as this with my ex but I decided too let her go as it was only germany as she was unhappy here and I still get too see him for about a week every 1-2months, (its heart breaking everytime I have too leave and it upsets him also, he's nearly 3).
    If she was from australia I would never let her go unless I was able too move over and get a job and think it would be a stupid decision by the judge too let this happen
    (but only if the father is actually participating in the childs life, like seeing him every weekends, but from the story you never know it could just be that he never deals with the kid and they just want too make a story out of it).


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    #151
    tenchi-fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭tenchi-fan


    That's a disgrace. He's their father, not a tamagochi.


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