Should maths be optional for leaving cert?

bb1234567

i think you should only have to do it for junior cert to learn basics. so many pupils find maths extremely hard nd its one of those subjects that isnt just learning off nd its not all about how much stdy you do as a lot of it is to do with natural ability. im not saying that noone can do well except the people who are rly good at maths its just its too much work for ppl who are bad at maths!! the course ATLEAST should be recreated nd made easier as its VERY DIFFICULT!!
What do you all think??

higgz

yeah I think I'd agree, although if they make it optional they should also give bonus points for those to do it as a way to encourage people to keep it up.

Monty Burnz

The standard of maths among Irish students/university graduates is already woeful. If we made it optional we may as well all emigrate tomorrow. The curriculum perhaps should be reformed to make maths more accessible and relevant, and maths teachers could be trained to teach it in a more interesting way, but ditching it altogether? No no no no.

With a good understanding of maths and the ability to write and understand English well, you can do anything. Minus either and your options are cut right back. Minus both and you can just head straight for the dole queue.

rainbowtrout

bb1234567 wrote: »

i think you should only have to do it for junior cert to learn basics. so many pupils find maths extremely hard nd its one of those subjects that isnt just learning off nd its not all about how much stdy you do as a lot of it is to do with natural ability. im not saying that noone can do well except the people who are rly good at maths its just its too much work for ppl who are bad at maths!! the course ATLEAST should be recreated nd made easier as its VERY DIFFICULT!!
What do you all think??

Are you crazy??? Natural ability does help, and it isn't about learning off. It's about practice. Sounds more like you are coming from the view of 'I can't be bothered to practice' rather than anything else.

Maths is needed in most areas, science, business, engineering. Might as well start handing out the social welfare forms with the junior cert results if maths was made optional.

By the way your keyboard seems to be missing a fair few vowels. Makes reading your post difficult.

Aoifey!

I thought the course was getting "recreated"? It's called Project Maths?


Maths comes in to much more things than you might think. Many college courses have a maths element when you wouldn't think it would. Maths is essential for most computer courses, science courses, business courses and many more. Without Leaving Cert maths these courses would be very difficult. Maths is far from irrelevant and is used in many fields so there's not the same argument as there is for Irish being made optional.

I know many find Maths difficult and everyone is better at different subjects, but a lot of the questions are repeated so if you go through the exam papers and do all previous years papers you should pick up enough to scrap a pass. And there's always the option of Foundation maths if you are really struggling with Ordinary.

Bottleopener

I have to disagree with you there, mainly for reasons that have already been posted. In my opinion, it is vital that Maths be compulsory for the Leaving Cert, as it teaches you a variety of important transferable skills - and maths is important for a very high amount of college courses.

As has been said before, Ordinary Level and Foundation Level are available if you're struggling at the level you're currently doing.

J_E

Maths as an optional subject? Hell no! Making it more accessable? Perhaps.

Chuchoter

bb1234567 wrote: »

i think you should only have to do it for junior cert to learn basics. so many pupils find maths extremely hard nd its one of those subjects that isnt just learning off nd its not all about how much stdy you do as a lot of it is to do with natural ability. im not saying that noone can do well except the people who are rly good at maths its just its too much work for ppl who are bad at maths!! the course ATLEAST should be recreated nd made easier as its VERY DIFFICULT!!
What do you all think??

I think maths is a vital subject, perhaps more important than Irish and English. It makes you more logical and able to solve problems. It has nothing to do with natural ability, I used to be **** at maths, consistently near failing, now I'm an A student at HL. How did I get there? Practice. The maths course is not that difficult, any easier and it would be boring and useless for 3rd level.

bb1234567

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Are you crazy??? Natural ability does help, and it isn't about learning off. It's about practice. Sounds more like you are coming from the view of 'I can't be bothered to practice' rather than anything else.

Maths is needed in most areas, science, business, engineering. Might as well start handing out the social welfare forms with the junior cert results if maths was made optional.

By the way your keyboard seems to be missing a fair few vowels. Makes reading your post difficult.

Well rainbowtrout if you had read my post correctly ...which you obviously have not! I SAID that the subject ISNT all just learning off, and i NEVER said that practising maths didnt help ...never once! And I most definitely DIDNT say that natural ability didnt help...in fact I said quite the opposite...I said that maths is far easier with those lucky enough to have natural ability.

rainbowtrout think about what you post next time and actually read the post beforehand before making stupid narky comments about my post saying that i said the exact opposite of what I posted!! Dont try to act as if you are so smart...nobody else seemed to have a problem reading my post..I was unaware that there was a rule on the forum which banned MILD text talk! Im only 14 Im doing my junior cert this year...
Also do not make wild,stupid assumptions about somebody who you have never met before. You have no idea if 'I can't be bothered to practice' my maths...I practise maths and still happen to have difficulties with them!! Well seeing as we seem to be judging other people from their posts on the forum...I judge rainbow trout to be the kind of person who does'nt look before they leap type,big headed,know it all, who thinks hes smarter than he is,narky and a generally negative person. Judging by your boards.ie post thats what I see. Just because you assume something about somebody doesnt mean you have to post it, so I'll do what you did and post what I assume somebody's personality to be......

Flabangav

Definitely not, maths is essential! For college courses and even some leaving cert subjects, to not study it would limit people and rule out certain courses. It's definitely more important than Irish.

Chuchoter

bb1234567 wrote: »

Well rainbowtrout if you had read my post correctly ...which you obviously have not! I SAID that the subject ISNT all just learning off, and i NEVER said that practising maths didnt help ...never once! And I most definitely DIDNT say that natural ability didnt help...in fact I said quite the opposite...I said that maths is far easier with those lucky enough to have natural ability.

rainbowtrout think about what you post next time and actually read the post beforehand before making stupid narky comments about my post saying that i said the exact opposite of what I posted!! Dont try to act as if you are so smart...nobody else seemed to have a problem reading my post..I was unaware that there was a rule on the forum which banned MILD text talk! Im only 14 Im doing my junior cert this year...
Also do not make wild,stupid assumptions about somebody who you have never met before. You have no idea if 'I can't be bothered to practice' my maths...I practise maths and still happen to have difficulties with them!! Well seeing as we seem to be judging other people from their posts on the forum...I judge rainbow trout to be the kind of person who does'nt look before they leap type,big headed,know it all, who thinks hes smarter than he is,narky and a generally negative person. Judging by your boards.ie post thats what I see. Just because you assume something about somebody doesnt mean you have to post it, so I'll do what you did and post what I assume somebody's personality to be......

Everything is easier if you have natural ability, but most maths (especially at JC) is just mountains of practice. Little of it is down to natural ability.

Just because you are 14 doing the Junior cert doesn't mean you're not being very shortsighted about what should and shouldn't be done at LC.

rainbowtrout

bb1234567 wrote: »

Well rainbowtrout if you had read my post correctly ...which you obviously have not! I SAID that the subject ISNT all just learning off, and i NEVER said that practising maths didnt help ...never once! And I most definitely DIDNT say that natural ability didnt help...in fact I said quite the opposite...I said that maths is far easier with those lucky enough to have natural ability.

rainbowtrout think about what you post next time and actually read the post beforehand before making stupid narky comments about my post saying that i said the exact opposite of what I posted!! Dont try to act as if you are so smart...nobody else seemed to have a problem reading my post..I was unaware that there was a rule on the forum which banned MILD text talk! Im only 14 Im doing my junior cert this year...
Also do not make wild,stupid assumptions about somebody who you have never met before. You have no idea if 'I can't be bothered to practice' my maths...I practise maths and still happen to have difficulties with them!! Well seeing as we seem to be judging other people from their posts on the forum...I judge rainbow trout to be the kind of person who does'nt look before they leap type,big headed,know it all, who thinks hes smarter than he is,narky and a generally negative person. Judging by your boards.ie post thats what I see. Just because you assume something about somebody doesnt mean you have to post it, so I'll do what you did and post what I assume somebody's personality to be......

I didn't. I was agreeing with you on the ability and learning off comments. That was quite clear from what I posted.

Posted reported.

No definitely not optional. What needs to happen is a revamp in teaching & attitudes right from primary level. Students think they can't do it because everyone tells them they can't. It's probably also not taught with enough curiosity.
It's essential in general. Also bear in mind not everyone knows what they want to do in life at age 16, and ruling out maths then discovering you may need it for a course change later on isn't a good situation to be in!

rainbowtrout

bluewolf wrote: »

No definitely not optional. What needs to happen is a revamp in teaching & attitudes right from primary level. Students think they can't do it because everyone tells them they can't. It's probably also not taught with enough curiosity.
It's essential in general. Also bear in mind not everyone knows what they want to do in life at age 16, and ruling out maths then discovering you may need it for a course change later on isn't a good situation to be in!

Since when??

Personally when it comes to maths I find students have become over reliant on calculators for everything. Even down to the simplest arithmetic. It sets the seed for lazy habits to be formed and if students aren't practicing basic maths, it doesn't make them want to practice more complicated stuff.

My leaving certs were asking me about a book they could buy the other day, I could get it for them with teacher discount @ 12.5%. So they told me the price of the book and I worked out the discount by diving by 8 on the board. I was met with protests of 'Why did you waste your time doing it on the board, you could have used a calculator?' The general concensus was let the calculator do the work, why bother wasting your time. It would have taken me longer to rummage in my bag for a calculator and input the numbers than the time it took me to write it on the board but they couldn't see that.

I hope this new Project Maths course does encourage students to like and want to practice maths again.

rainbowtrout

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Since when??

Since an early age? It seems clear enough people are happy announcing they can't do maths, whereas they wouldn't be so quick with spelling. Add in the fact they're finally acknowledging the problem with "project maths" (which isn't going to solve the problem), offering bonus points, making it into a big deal etc, it just keeps reinforcing the "maths is so hard" hype. It's been getting easier for ages!
I think we're getting some acknowledgment in the language area when people say "x years of learning french/irish/etc in school and we aren't fluent leaving? - there must be a problem".

Personally when it comes to maths I find students have become over reliant on calculators for everything. Even down to the simplest arithmetic. It sets the seed for lazy habits to be formed and if students aren't practicing basic maths, it doesn't make them want to practice more complicated stuff.

What about in primary school though?

rainbowtrout

bluewolf wrote: »

Since an early age? It seems clear enough people are happy announcing they can't do maths, whereas they wouldn't be so quick with spelling. Add in the fact they're finally acknowledging the problem with "project maths" (which isn't going to solve the problem), offering bonus points, making it into a big deal etc, it just keeps reinforcing the "maths is so hard" hype. It's been getting easier for ages!
I think we're getting some acknowledgment in the language area when people say "x years of learning french/irish/etc in school and we aren't fluent leaving? - there must be a problem".

What about in primary school though?

I still don't understand your comment. I get the whole 'I can't do maths' thing, I get it the whole time in science 'I can't do physics/chemistry' etc etc, but I don't think that's coming from teachers telling students they can't do maths.

Project maths might help, but it does have to start in primary school. From what I understand children don't learn off times tables anymore. Now some would argue rote learning is pointless, but I find it handy when I'm in the supermarket if I'm buying multiples of an item and I can multiply in my head etc. Some rote learning is no harm. Children in primary school are using calculators. This doesn't allow them to lay foundations in basic maths for later on in the education system. Children aren't getting thicker by any means so why do people who went through primary school in the 80s like me without a calculator have the ability to do maths by and large yet students today don't? They are in smaller classes, so they should get more attention. There were 43 in my primary school class and we all came out OK.

We had plenty of practice though. My students are often shocked to hear that calculators weren't allowed when I did JC Maths in 1994. They can't get their heads around the idea that we worked everything out on paper or used log tables. Not that we need to return to log tables but again, we got lots of practice in.

Then again, we didn't have as much distractions, only one TV, only a few channels, no internet, no electronic gadgets and for a large part many had a parent at home to help with/check over homework. I'm sure all of those external factors played a part too.

rainbowtrout

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I still don't understand your comment. I get the whole 'I can't do maths' thing, I get it the whole time in science 'I can't do physics/chemistry' etc etc, but I don't think that's coming from teachers telling students they can't do maths.

Sorry I did mean in general from parents at home also

.From what I understand children don't learn off times tables anymore.

They what?!

Now some would argue rote learning is pointless,

Not for the basics! You need to learn your alphabet before you deal with literature!

Children in primary school are using calculators. This doesn't allow them to lay foundations in basic maths for later on in the education system.
My students are often shocked to hear that calculators weren't allowed when I did JC Maths in 1994. They can't get their heads around the idea that we worked everything out on paper or used log tables. Not that we need to return to log tables but again, we got lots of practice in.
.

What?!
I'm going to get a heart attack here. Calcs in primary school and for JC?

randylonghorn

bb1234567 wrote: »

i think you should only have to do it for junior cert to learn basics. so many pupils find maths extremely hard nd its one of those subjects that isnt just learning off nd its not all about how much stdy you do as a lot of it is to do with natural ability. im not saying that noone can do well except the people who are rly good at maths its just its too much work for ppl who are bad at maths!! the course ATLEAST should be recreated nd made easier as its VERY DIFFICULT!!
What do you all think??

Please avoid textspeak and write in English, using capital letters and punctuation generally. It makes what you are trying to say much more comprehensible, and is in any case a requirement of posting on this site.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Are you crazy???

There are more polite ways of disagreeing!

bb1234567 wrote: »

rainbowtrout think about what you post next time and actually read the post beforehand before making stupid narky comments about my post saying that i said the exact opposite of what I posted!! Dont try to act as if you are so smart...nobody else seemed to have a problem reading my post..I was unaware that there was a rule on the forum which banned MILD text talk! Im only 14 Im doing my junior cert this year...
Also do not make wild,stupid assumptions about somebody who you have never met before. You have no idea if 'I can't be bothered to practice' my maths...I practise maths and still happen to have difficulties with them!! Well seeing as we seem to be judging other people from their posts on the forum...I judge rainbow trout to be the kind of person who does'nt look before they leap type,big headed,know it all, who thinks hes smarter than he is,narky and a generally negative person. Judging by your boards.ie post thats what I see. Just because you assume something about somebody doesnt mean you have to post it, so I'll do what you did and post what I assume somebody's personality to be......

Cut out the abuse, it won't be tolerated. It may be advisable to read the forum charter and FAQs for the site (linked in the charter) before posting again.

rainbowtrout

bluewolf wrote: »

Sorry I did mean in general from parents at home also


They what?!


Not for the basics! You need to learn your alphabet before you deal with literature!



What?!
I'm going to get a heart attack here. Calcs in primary school and for JC?

Yep, calculators for everything now. Probably explains an awful lot. I'm teaching some resource maths this year. I have three first years. All have a standard scientific calculator. All the same model so I assume it was on the book list or is the only one that is stocked in one of the local shops.

I had to teach one of them how to use a protractor the other day. He had no idea how it worked, something he should have probably learned in fourth class. He was working out the different angles in a pie chart. The first angle was 30 degrees, the second was 15 degree and he had to find the third. I asked him what was 30 + 15 and watched as he pulled out the calculator to add them up. :eek:

I wouldn't even go as far as to say that this student was weak, he got everything I taught him, but he didn't have basic maths skills. I was also teaching him how to mark out angles in a circle with the protractor. The other two students were much the same.

Chuchoter

I think primary school maths is horrendous tbh, I was never able to do any of it. I also think calculators are a great invention, main reason I wasn't good at maths at primary school (and therefore didn't have any confidence in my own ability, even to this day) is that I'm not great at mental maths. I'm really good at the complicated x and y stuff, I just can never keep the numbers straight in my head to multiply them. I don't think being able to do mental maths is a very useful skill and if calculators get you around that then grand.

rainbowtrout

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, calculators for everything now. Probably explains an awful lot. I'm teaching some resource maths this year. I have three first years. All have a standard scientific calculator. All the same model so I assume it was on the book list or is the only one that is stocked in one of the local shops.

I had to teach one of them how to use a protractor the other day. He had no idea how it worked, something he should have probably learned in fourth class. He was worked out the different angles in a pie chart. The first angle was 30 degrees, the second was 15 degree and he had to find the third. I asked him what was 30 + 15 and watched as he pulled out the calculator to add them up. :eek:

I wouldn't even go as far as to say that this student was weak, he got everything I taught him, but he didn't have basic maths skills. I was also teaching him how to mark out angles in a circle with the protractor. The other two students were much the same.

/headdesk
No wonder we are having troubles with maths. I didn't realise things had got this bad since the days I did it.
I think I had better just back away from this thread now...

partyatmygaff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, calculators for everything now. Probably explains an awful lot. I'm teaching some resource maths this year. I have three first years. All have a standard scientific calculator. All the same model so I assume it was on the book list or is the only one that is stocked in one of the local shops.

I had to teach one of them how to use a protractor the other day. He had no idea how it worked, something he should have probably learned in fourth class. He was working out the different angles in a pie chart. The first angle was 30 degrees, the second was 15 degree and he had to find the third. I asked him what was 30 + 15 and watched as he pulled out the calculator to add them up. :eek:

I wouldn't even go as far as to say that this student was weak, he got everything I taught him, but he didn't have basic maths skills. I was also teaching him how to mark out angles in a circle with the protractor. The other two students were much the same.

If it's any consolation I know people in sixth year who don't know how to use a protractor and who don't understand the difference between radius and diameter of a circle. It's not so much that they're thick (At least I hope not) but that they don't bother themselves with actually doing any work. These are the type of people who managed to get themselves a whopping 0 points in the Christmas and perhaps even the Mock exams.

randylonghorn

crayolastereo wrote: »

I don't think being able to do mental maths is a very useful skill and if calculators get you around that then grand.

I don't think it's essential to be able to multiply 579 x 97 in your head, crayola, but we've gone to the other extreme.

I handed in €10.14 to-day for a bill of €9.14, expecting to get a euro change (I fight a losing battle to keep small change out of my pocket).

Not alone did he glare at me for confusing him, but even with the calculator / till he got it wrong and tried to give me 90 cent change!

I could give you so many other examples, but I'd sound like Victor Meldrew!

bluewolf wrote: »

/headdesk
No wonder we are having troubles with maths. I didn't realise things had got this bad since the days I did it.
I think I had better just back away from this thread now...

It's gotten so bad that I've given up going :eek:, tbh!

rainbowtrout

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think primary school maths is horrendous tbh, I was never able to do any of it. I also think calculators are a great invention, main reason I wasn't good at maths at primary school (and therefore didn't have any confidence in my own ability, even to this day) is that I'm not great at mental maths. I'm really good at the complicated x and y stuff, I just can never keep the numbers straight in my head to multiply them. I don't think being able to do mental maths is a very useful skill and if calculators get you around that then grand.

Why not? You use mental arithmetic every day whether you think about it or not? What do you do when you go to the shop at lunch and you buy a sandwich and a drink and wonder do you have enough change in a fiver for a bar of chocolate?? It's all mental arithmetic. Being able to do that basic stuff, speeds you up to be able to do more complicated stuff without having to put too much effort into the basics. Granted some people do have difficulties with it and calculators are there to help, but if we do away with mental arithmetic altogether we are becoming over reliant on machines to do all the work for us. If you don't let your brain practice some basic maths from early on, it's going to find it more difficult to process the complicated stuff later on.

Chuchoter

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't think it's essential to be able to multiply 579 x 97 in your head, crayola, but we've gone to the other extreme.

I handed in €10.14 to-day for a bill of €9.14, expecting to get a euro change (I fight a losing battle to keep small change out of my pocket).

Not alone did he glare at me for confusing him, but even with the calculator / till he got it wrong and tried to give me 90 cent change!

I could give you so many other examples, but I'd sound like Victor Meldrew!

It's gotten so bad that I've given up going :eek:, tbh!

Ok, didn't actually realize we were talking that basic, but I mean I can't imagine trying to do even JC maths without a calculator. I was never great at adding fractions or big numbers without paper, and at primary the whole thing is that kind of idea. Its can be really discouraging to people who then think they can't do maths but then really they can.

partyatmygaff

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't think it's essential to be able to multiply 579 x 97 in your head, crayola, but we've gone to the other extreme.

The problem is that most people would look at something like 579 x 97 (Let alone something simple) and then give up. Something like 579 x 97 may look difficult but in fact is quite easy if you break it down.

Mental arithmetic is a very useful skill.

rainbowtrout

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't think it's essential to be able to multiply 579 x 97 in your head, crayola, but we've gone to the other extreme.

Just had a flashback of my fourth class primary school teacher ( who was a good teacher but a bit of a tyrant) making us learn 13, 15, 17 and 19 times tables. Up to 12 wasn't good enough for her. Oddly enough she seemed to have a set against 14, 16, 18 as we never did them.

However it does mean that I have never forgotten that 17 x 17 = 289 and 19 x 19 = 361! :pac:

rainbowtrout

crayolastereo wrote: »

Ok, didn't actually realize we were talking that basic, but I mean I can't imagine trying to do even JC maths without a calculator. I was never great at adding fractions or big numbers without paper, and at primary the whole thing is that kind of idea. Its can be really discouraging to people who then think they can't do maths but then really they can.

But that's because you've never had to. The course hasn't changed wildly in the last 15 years (until Project Maths was brought in this year), and students managed fine with it before.

We all learned how to do trigonometry (Sin, Cos, Tan) with paper and log tables. It worked out fine in the end.

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Just had a flashback of my fourth class primary school teacher ( who was a good teacher but a bit of a tyrant) making us learn 13, 15, 17 and 19 times tables. Up to 12 wasn't good enough for her. Oddly enough she seemed to have a set against 14, 16, 18 as we never did them.

Coz you just use 7, 8 and 9 and then double it!

Jeez!!! :rolleyes: :pac:

evolving_doors

2 easy solutions

1. Bring back rote learning in primary schools, for the times tables at least.

2. Ban calculators for the Junior cert, all workings at the side of the page

,, asking certain 2nd level students to do simple calculations in their head without a calculator is like meeting a brick wall, not their fault really but it's about being comfortable with numbers, you can really spot the students who have the calculations learnt off, I've also noticed that there is a divide between what schools some students have come from and the grade they achieve in exams.

Maths should definitely be compulsory out of any subject. From speaking to friends in business, they say that people in meetings really lose face and look bad if they cant even make rough estimations on the hoof

Chuchoter

Armelodie wrote: »

2 easy solutions

1. Bring back rote learning in primary schools, for the times tables at least.

2. Ban calculators for the Junior cert, all workings at the side of the page

,, asking certain 2nd level students to do simple calculations in their head without a calculator is like meeting a brick wall, not their fault really but it's about being comfortable with numbers, you can really spot the students who have the calculations learnt off, I've also noticed that there is a divide between what schools some students have come from and the grade they achieve in exams.

Maths should definitely be compulsory out of any subject. From speaking to friends in business, they say that people in meetings really lose face and look bad if they cant even make rough estimations on the hoof

But if you get rid of calculators for JC, you would exclude all the people like me, who would be constantly frustrated, discouraged and bored by the endless basic maths. I think its way better to allow people to do the interesting more complicated maths without the tedious other bits.