Car Bomb in Omagh

tbh

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well I dunno about you but whenever I read or hear about people being killed I always want to know why it happened.

Why? What difference does it make?

OhNoYouDidn't

tbh wrote: »

Why? What difference does it make?

Is that a serious question? :eek:

Dr Galen

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I could, and would try to answer them but any attempt at understanding or answering those questions makes you a supporter apparently, thems dangerous questions!

I am by no means a supporter of such acts. In fact, having grown up in the North (something many of the Republicans in this forum haven't) and lived through the troubles, I'm actually quite apathetic to the Republican cause. In that case, I'll ask the questions for you?

tbh wrote: »

It's not that. The question above basically asks "how would these murderes justify this murder?" some people on this site, me included, would suggest that there really isn't any justification they could give that would make this into anything else but a murder of someone we need more of by someone we would be better off without. A lot of posters on this site wouldn't stop to think "what made that pedophile abuse that child", the question you think we are afraid of addressing is much the same.

Agreed that there cannot be any "justification" in the normal sense for such acts, but that doesn't mean at all that we shouldn't ask why. Its only by understanding the thought process, no matter how perverted or wrong, that we can attempt to counteract it. That counteraction may take different forms in fairness, like addressing disaffection within the young people in Republican strongholds, and creating opportunity for people to break free from such mindsets.

Still, its a pretty sad day for the North and the Island as a whole.

Wolfe Tone

tbh wrote: »

Of course it's a serious question. If someone is murdered, what else matters other than that?

The reason why someone is murdered doesn't matter? I think it does, motive is pretty important is it not?

Maybe I am(I dont think I am) unusually curious in wanting to know why these people, or anyone, kill.

RDM_83 again

amacachi wrote: »

I thought it was about time til I read how low the current ratio still is.

Yeah the ratios are pretty bad alright and this is just pure hearsay but have heard said (and do know of one actual example) that a considerable number of the catholic recruits wouldn't be from NI as such, which due to attacks like this is sort of understandable. Unfortunately unlike the dissident bombing campaign this is a tactic that i can see working for them in the long term (as well as there attacks on policing board members)

ps feel like an idiot for not noticing Ronan

tbh

Sounds to me like you're claiming that some murders are more understandable than others. If you are not saying that, why would the motive count for anything.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And we are off....

Who actually said any of the above? Where is the support for the bombins? Pure strawman. The blame is being squarely laid, just that some posters have the audacity to place the attack in a context as opposed to the 'conflict junkie' line...

Aye. Context is very important in this murder of a catholic earning a living in a job with a police force supported by the vast majority of people on the island and Northern Ireland and supported by all nationalist parties.

But hey, lets focus on the context. :rolleyes:

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

Aye. Context is very important in this murder of a catholic earning a living in a job with a police force supported by the vast majority of people on the island and Northern Ireland and supported by all nationalist parties.

But hey, lets focus on the context. :rolleyes:

So what you are saying is we should ignore the context and hope they just go away?

Worked out great for you in 1969, didn't it...

OhNoYouDidn't

tbh wrote: »

Sounds to me like you're claiming that some murders are more understandable than others. If you are not saying that, why would the motive count for anything.

Thats an unhelpful strawman. You are putting words in peoples mouths.

In any murder, the cops always look for a motive to help the investigation. are they wrong?

Wolfe Tone

tbh wrote: »

Sounds to me like you're claiming that some murders are more understandable than others. If you are not saying that, why would the motive count for anything.

Don't you ever ask "why"? when you hear about these things?

TV is chock a block with programs about serial killers and why they did what they did for example.. Are those programs justifying them?

Dr Galen

tbh wrote: »

Sounds to me like you're claiming that some murders are more understandable than others. If you are not saying that, why would the motive count for anything.

Understanding motive is not the same as justifying that motive. I think its fair to say that there is a pretty big sociological question to be asked regarding any murder.

Some murder is completely senseless and without reason, or driving force. Thats rare though. Most murder/killing has a reason, and also a reason for that reason, which I feel is especially relevant in the case of Northern Ireland.

tbh

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So what you are saying is we should ignore the context and hope they just go away?

Worked out great for you in 1969, didn't it...

The context is, the people of Ireland have said in overwhelming numbers that we want to move on, and these guys are just going to do this anyway

unclejunior

a british police officer killed in ireland...what a sad day in irish politics

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So what you are saying is we should ignore the context and hope they just go away?

Worked out great for you in 1969, didn't it...

Who cares for 1969? I honestly don't care about 1969, unless im doing a history course. That was then and this is now. Its a different time now. That has all been settled. These people don't have a legitimate cause supported by any sort of majority at all.


They are thugs, killing thugs. Plain and simple. I call on all people from the nationalist community to turn them in if you have any information and put them before the courts. It simply needs to be done.


There is just no sensible context in regards to this. Only deluded people with a romantic vision can see any sort of context in this murder. All I see is murder and a young man’s life taken away. Disgrace.

Dr Galen

KeithAFC wrote: »

I call on all people from the nationalist community to turn them in if you have any information and put them before the courts. It simply needs to be done.

No complaint from me. Upholding the rule of law applies to all, and hopefully the people who carried out this killing will be brought to justice.

Only deluded people with a romantic vision can see any sort of context in this murder.

or people with an interest in criminology, the thought processes behind crime or even just those interested in sociology and crime/murder.

Removing your (and others) personal political viewpoints from this discussion would possibily be a good thing. Just sayin......

a young man’s life taken away. Disgrace

+1000

KeithAFC

or people with an interest in criminology, the thought processes behind crime or even just those interested in sociology and crime/murder.

Removing your (and others) personal political viewpoints from this discussion would possibily be a good thing. Just sayin......

I understand your point in that regard but can't this be done in many different situations or stories like Ted bundy for example. I just don't see any sort of 'context' in this at all. Same with the Shankill Butchers. People are just killers, plain and simple.

These people seem to think they have a right to tell catholics what jobs they are allowed.

alan85

tbh wrote: »

The context is, the people of Ireland have said in overwhelming numbers that we want to move on, and these guys are just going to do this anyway

So it's that simple? Some young lad on www.boards.ie thinks that a vote of the people of Ireland matter to disaffected people of a mind f**kinly f**ked up period in the history of the 20th Century(and I think it is fair to put if up there in terms of disagreements worldwide. IRA was sometimes the first thing people from South America said to me that knew nothing else about Ireland!) and you think it's going to change overnight?! You're deluded if you do think it's as clear as that. Understanding them and learning about their lives might be a start! Look at how far members of SF have brought the North through cooperation... Grow up!

Dr Galen

KeithAFC wrote: »

I understand your point in that regard but can't this be done in many different situations or stories like Ted bundy for example. I just don't see any sort of 'context' in this at all. Same with the Shankill Butchers. People are just killers, plain and simple.

These people seem to think they have a right to tell catholics what jobs they are allowed.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one tbh. Comparing the likes of the IRA/RIRA/CIRA/low-fat low sugar IRA/AL Qaieda etc to Ted Bundy is not a like for like comparison to be fair. Sure the end product is the same, i.e. someone gets murdered, but the motive behind these killings is fundamentally different, and much more complicated than you are assuming.

Murder in all forms is to be condemned, we agree on that.

The Scientician

KeithAFC wrote: »

I understand your point in that regard but can't this be done in many different situations or stories like Ted bundy for example. I just don't see any sort of 'context' in this at all. Same with the Shankill Butchers. People are just killers, plain and simple.

These people seem to think they have a right to tell catholics what jobs they are allowed.

Boredom, irrelevance, wanting to be a big man, frustration, take your pick.

Godge

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The reason why someone is murdered doesn't matter? I think it does, motive is pretty important is it not?

Maybe I am(I dont think I am) unusually curious in wanting to know why these people, or anyone, kill.

Are you a criminal psychologist or do you have an interest in that science?

Do you have an interest in supporting groups that use violence murder and terrorism as a means to an end?

Do you read crime thrillers?

Do you work for law enforcement (judge, courts, police etc.)?

Are you a closet real IRA supporter?

If you fall into one of the above categories, you wouldn't be unusually curious in wanting to know why these people kill. If you don't, you probably are unusually curious. So which one are you?

Godge

Dr Galen wrote: »

Comparing the likes of the IRA/RIRA/CIRA/low-fat low sugar IRA/AL Qaieda etc to Ted Bundy is not a like for like comparison to be fair. Sure the end product is the same, i.e. someone gets murdered, but the motive behind these killings is fundamentally different, and much more complicated than you are assuming.

What makes you think they are so different? Except that a group of patholigically insane people is more dangerous than a single pathologically insane person?

The Scientician

Godge wrote: »

What makes you think they are so different? Except that a group of patholigically insane people is more dangerous than a single pathologically insane person?

The context they operate in. There was some popular support for the heinous actions of physical force republicans all down the days they've operated. The politics lends a vague legitimacy to the actions. Also, acts of political violence can be stopped by changing the sociopolitical status quo, serial killers are usually only stopped by being caught, convicted and confined.

RMD

unclejunior wrote: »

a british police officer killed in ireland...what a sad day in irish politics

A young man was called today by a bunch of callous scum who will achieve nothing by doing this. If you don't consider it a sad day that a man unnecessarily killed, then you might consider it a sad day that this will damage any hope of a united Ireland?

Dr Galen

The Scientician wrote: »

The context they operate in. There was some popular support for the heinous actions of physical force republicans all down the days they've operated. The politics lends a vague legitimacy to the actions. Also, acts of political violence can be stopped by changing the sociopolitical status quo, serial killers are usually only stopped by being caught, convicted and confined.

This

As well Ted Bundy et al, being actually bananas loco, like padded cell, bat**** crazy as opposed to the type of thing that you would see with most terrorist style organisations. Terrorist groups are usually led and directed by people who are far from what I've described above, well unless you count the bad guys in Die Hard

decies

Pointless death by Irish losers !!! Hope he is caught soon.

Godge

The Scientician wrote: »

The context they operate in. There was some popular support for the heinous actions of physical force republicans all down the days they've operated. The politics lends a vague legitimacy to the actions. Also, acts of political violence can be stopped by changing the sociopolitical status quo, serial killers are usually only stopped by being caught, convicted and confined.

Ah yes, let me accept your argument for a minute. If it were true that acts of viloence can be stopped by changing the sociopoloitical status quo they should have stopped because it did. But they haven't stopped.

When you have changed the sociopolitical status quo to a situation where it has overwhelming majority support then the physical force republicans can only fall into your Ted Bundy category. Otherwise a serial killer could claim legitimacy under your theory if he was fighting for the Klingon Liberation Front. I am not being facetious - the time for excuse and moral justification has gone. Those who committed that murder are pathologically insane.

Wolfe Tone

Terrontress wrote: »

I am led to believe that he is a teenage schoolchild whose hobbies include extreme republicanism and WWF wrestling.

Well you would be wrong there... Not that it in any way matters.

Terrontress

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well you would be wrong there... Not that it in any way matters.

I would be wrong if......? I would be wrong if I had described you differently. But as I did not I am not wrong. Does that sound better? I don't wish to put words in your mouth. Or in your posts.

I apologise if I have posted something incorrect. I was just trying to answer another poster's questions when I should have left that to you.

Wolfe Tone

Terrontress wrote: »

I would be wrong if......? I would be wrong if I had described you differently. But as I did not I am not wrong. Does that sound better? I don't wish to put words in your mouth. Or in your posts.

I apologise if I have posted something incorrect. I was just trying to answer another poster's questions when I should have left that to you.

You posted incorrect, and irrelevant information, this thread is not about me.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

These boyos are dead beats and political non entities, relics of a past. I doubt they think they have anything better to do with their "skill sets" and no one has been able to persuade them of not seeking to kill and maim.

Precisely. I wouldn't even have given them the credibility of starting a thread in a Politics forum about them.

They are 100% scum with no regard for human life.

May the man murdered rest in peace, and the thoughts of all decent Irish people should be with him and his family.

Those who committed this represent no Irish man, woman or child, and are only out for their own facist agenda.

If they ever do get their way it will be an Ireland that I want no part of.

OhNoYouDidn't

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

They didn't. They targeted a policeman who knew the risk when he joined up.

Lets be clear here, I do not support the dissidents for one second, but I think two important points need to be made.

1: The PSNI are still not accepted by a large number of folk in the 6 counties as a fair and impartial police force.

2: Pearse was right. Ireland unfree will never be at peace. While there is British rule, there will be people who will fight that rule.

Some of the hand-wringing on this thread is cringeworthy.

What? You think people in the Republic yearn to be re-united with Northern Ireland?!

If so, you are sadly deluded.

Rabble Rabble

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And we are off....

Who actually said any of the above? Where is the support for the bombins? Pure strawman. The blame is being squarely laid, just that some posters have the audacity to place the attack in a context as opposed to the 'conflict junkie' line...

There is no context for murder. The fascists who did this live on an Island where the majority, north and south, have agreed in the most democratic fashion to not unite the Island until both parts of the Island agree. By opposing that with violence they are fascists.

The fascists who did this live in a political entity which has reformed itself and has a power sharing agreement where a party which represents their community, and supports a united Ireland by democratic means is in power.

Supporting them, understanding them, wondering about what they feel when a young man who wished to serve his community lies dead because of their fascism, is also fascism.

K-9

They don't have any substantial support for their actions.

There'll always be a group who'll do this. If you brought the RIRA into the process tomorrow there'd be the Real RIRA to try and understand.

Einhard

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And we are off....

Who actually said any of the above? Where is the support for the bombins? Pure strawman. The blame is being squarely laid, just that some posters have the audacity to place the attack in a context as opposed to the 'conflict junkie' line...

There is a context for every murder. Indeed, there is a context for every action. However, when it comes to murders by ideologues of any stripe, there is a tendency amongst some of those who share their convictions, but disdain their methods, to contextualise to the point of justification, and sometimes well beyond. Given that a sizeable proportion of the Irish population, North and South, supported the IRA as they murdered civilians, it is not unreasonable that, when such people claim to be establishing context, that they provoke some scepticism.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

My intuitive reaction when I hear of a bombing is to ask why it happened. Maybe for you it isn't, but I don't think it points to a moral defect on my part

Context is of course important, but sometimes I find that it is sought, not to edify and suggest solutions, but rather in an attempt to transfer some responsibility for such crimes from the actual perpetrators to a wider socio-political movements. That, I think, partly explains the skepticism aroused by the context seekers. Quite often, they are not quite genuine in their search for it. It strikes me, for example, that there is rarely the same emphasis on context following gangland murders. More pertinently, I have yet to see Republicans place such import on context in threads dealing with the criminal actions of Crown forces.

Dr Galen wrote: »

Agreed that there cannot be any "justification" in the normal sense for such acts, but that doesn't mean at all that we shouldn't ask why. Its only by understanding the thought process, no matter how perverted or wrong, that we can attempt to counteract it. That counteraction may take different forms in fairness, like addressing disaffection within the young people in Republican strongholds, and creating opportunity for people to break free from such mindsets.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with this. An understanding of even the most perverse and inhuman actions is necessary for the evolution of strategies to deal with such behaviour. However, as I mentioned, when it comes to ideologically motivated crimes, there is a tendency amongst some less extreme "fellow travellers" to use context in an attempt to minimise the offence, and to make the crime look more understandable. I don't accuse anyone of seeking to do so in this thread, but that universal reality goes some way towards explaining the skepticism that is invariably aroused when context is raised after political crimes.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So what you are saying is we should ignore the context and hope they just go away?

Sometimes though, an intimate understanding of the context will have no impact or effect. I believe that is the situation with the dissidents. We know their aims and goals, but understanding them won't make such people go away.

The Scientician wrote: »

Also, acts of political violence can be stopped by changing the sociopolitical status quo, serial killers are usually only stopped by being caught, convicted and confined.

But only if there is widespread democratic support for changing the status quo. It cannot be enforced down the barrel of a gun. That is why understanding their motivations will do precious little to stop those who carried out this horrible attack.

Dr Galen

I'd take your points on much of the above tbh, especially the points on how seeking understanding can be used to place some pretty heinous crimes in a "context" that allows them to become excusable. I think its very difficult for anyone with a strong view on either side, to be able to remove that view from their analysis. Saying that, nothing excuses the event that took place today.

I agree that an understanding of the motivations of the RIRA will probably not change things, but i would suggest that only applies to those in a position of leadership. While support for the RIRA etc might be small, it still exists. By understanding what drives people to support such extreme organisations maybe then we can try and cut off any support they would gain in the future. For the leadership, then who knows the best outcome. Something involving a deserted island in the South Pacific sounds good right about now.....

laughter189

decies wrote: »

Pointless death by Irish losers !!! Hope he is caught soon.

Not he ... They ............

This is a group , THEY need to be brought to justice ASAP

FUNKY LOVER

simple as this-no occupation,no IRA.

there will always be resistance.im no republican but surely the british have sussed this by now.

rebels in libya,rebels in ireland,tell me the difference?

K-9

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

simple as this-no occupation,no IRA.

there will always be resistance.im no republican but surely the british have sussed this by now.

rebels in libya,rebels in ireland,tell me the difference?

The rebels are in a power sharing Government?

markesmith

salonfire wrote: »

What? You think people in the Republic yearn to be re-united with Northern Ireland?!

If so, you are sadly deluded.

According to a recent poll on boards.ie, a significant number of us in the Republic want to re-unite with Britain.

You, salonfire, don't speak for everyone in this country. I'd like a united Ireland. I'm just not up for killing people to achieve it.

amacachi

Good argument. Most people in the South don't give a ****. Those that do would rather avoid Dublin getting bombed. The ones thinking past that again don't want the state-employment reliance the North has relied on since its foundation.

PatricaMcKay

salonfire wrote: »

What? You think people in the Republic yearn to be re-united with Northern Ireland?!

If so, you are sadly deluded.

Actually in the estate in the south I live there is a good bit of support for armed resistance in the north. Outside of middle class ghettoes I think most people have a feeling of what the north have been through and care.

I dont support this attack...But it was an attack on an armed and uniformed member of paramilitary militia that regularly haresses people for political reasons while seemingly ignoring the drug dealers and the anti-social hoods.

The Scientician

Godge wrote: »

Ah yes, let me accept your argument for a minute. If it were true that acts of viloence can be stopped by changing the sociopoloitical status quo they should have stopped because it did. But they haven't stopped..

No they haven't stopped, but they have become isolated incidents instead of part of the mainstream of NI politics and history. Society in the North has moved from an "acceptable level of violence" ie regular random violent acts, to the situation post-Good Friday Agreement, where those acts are way less common. The main apparatus of the Provisional IRA no longer acts the way it did, nor do Loyalist terrorists, despite this incident and others like it. So, I think what I say is still true, albeit unfortunately no change in the status quo, politically will ever fully appease all those who want to stir sh1t.

The Scientician

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

simple as this-no occupation,no IRA.

there will always be resistance.im no republican but surely the british have sussed this by now.

rebels in libya,rebels in ireland,tell me the difference?

Dictatorship versus democracy? The North was a flawed democracy for many years but now there are procedures in place to protect the civil rights of the minority there. Libya is/was a kleptocratic dictatorship.

The Scientician

Einhard wrote: »

But only if there is widespread democratic support for changing the status quo. It cannot be enforced down the barrel of a gun. That is why understanding their motivations will do precious little to stop those who carried out this horrible attack.

Well understanding their motivation can help prevent similar attacks in the future, I'm sure of it. Making sure kids in Republican sink estates have prospects other than terrorist infamy is one obvious one.

amacachi

The Scientician wrote: »

Well understanding their motivation can help prevent similar attacks in the future, I'm sure of it. Making sure kids in Republican sink estates have prospects other than terrorist infamy is one obvious one.

Aye, brits out.

FUNKY LOVER

The Scientician wrote: »

Dictatorship versus democracy? The North was a flawed democracy for many years but now there are procedures in place to protect the civil rights of the minority there. Libya is/was a kleptocratic dictatorship.

civil rights?you know there is civil rights for a fact?stop watching utv and sky news.

not much has changed up there but igorance and arrogance to the situation will tell it different..

The Scientician

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

civil rights?you know there is civil rights for a fact?stop watching utv and sky news.

not much has changed up there but igorance and arrogance to the situation will tell it different..

What civil rights are lacking up there?

PatricaMcKay

The Scientician wrote: »

Well understanding their motivation can help prevent similar attacks in the future, I'm sure of it. Making sure kids in Republican sink estates have prospects other than terrorist infamy is one obvious one.

What exactly is terrorist infamy?

So if the sink so called estates in the south acted up that would you give care for us?

PatricaMcKay

The Scientician wrote: »

What civil rights are lacking up there?

The anti-terrorist laws are much more vicious than they were during the last full blown insurgency...Plus we have internment in the south.

I dont support the militarists (at the moment) but the likes of yourself really do a good job recruiting for them, you realize that?

The Scientician

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

What exactly is terrorist infamy?

So if the sink so called estates in the south acted up that would you give care for us?

Terrorist infamy is becoming famous for killing/maiming people for whatever cause you purport to espouse.

I don't understand your second question.