WRC Caused Cancelation of DU, MN and Navan Rail Line

OurLadyofKnock

They demanded their crazy trainspotter wet dream. The made sure it became the most important rail project in the country. People in Dublin who did not even know there was a Dart Underground were "excited" about this amazing Western Rail Corridor which was constantly on the news in the papers. They could not wait to use it hearing amazing stories of trains flying up and down the West Coast. Anyone who pointed out it was a joke were called "haters of the people of the West..."

Then:

• IT FLOPPED

• IT THEN BECAME THE EXCUSE NOT TO INVEST IN RAIL TRANSPORT ANYWHERE.

Just how it was planned all along.

Victor

Loaded language removed from title.

dowlingm

I'm not sure why this topic needs to exist at all - and this coming from someone who has fulminated about the prioritisation of Athenry-Ennis in the several previous threads on the subject.

In any case, the WRC could be said to have delayed some IE projects by diverting engineering, planning or track laying resources - maybe the Nenagh relay, maybe Cork-Midleton, maybe Dunboyne but it can't seriously be argued that it significantly affected KRP/DU and certainly not MN since the RPA wasn't getting that money either way and none of its engineers or PMs would have worked on it.

corktina

im not sure this is an accuate assesment either as the funding for the WRC was chicken feed compared to that required elsewhere which wasnt even getting close to being allocated.

It was in a a sense a Red Herring given to a) win votes and b) make it look as if something was being done about investmant in our rail network.

Maybe it should be added that it was partly created at the expense of another line, a rob Peter to pay Paul approach. Hoepfully some of the detractors of the very sensible opinions given on here about the undesirability of the re-opening of the WRC in the form it was will now begin to see the point.

Cookie_Monster

The above has been a well know fact on here for as long as I've been a member, nothing new, see WRC thread, etc etc

shamwari

dowlingm wrote: »

I'm not sure why this topic needs to exist at all - and this coming from someone who has fulminated about the prioritisation of Athenry-Ennis in the several previous threads on the subject.

In any case, the WRC could be said to have delayed some IE projects by diverting engineering, planning or track laying resources - maybe the Nenagh relay, maybe Cork-Midleton, maybe Dunboyne but it can't seriously be argued that it significantly affected KRP/DU and certainly not MN since the RPA wasn't getting that money either way and none of its engineers or PMs would have worked on it.

Well said and I agree 100% dowlingm. And its a pity that this board doesn't have a big YAWN smiley, because it would be very apt here as this topic has been debated to death now.

Victor

shamwari wrote: »

Well said and I agree 100% dowlingm. And its a pity that this board doesn't have a big YAWN smiley, because it would be very apt here as this topic has been debated to death now.

shamwari

What a cute child!

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

I'm not sure why this topic needs to exist at all -

Because the (second) Western Rail Corridor thread is locked and for no apparent reason?

Of course one could speculate and say that its an attempt by mods to bait certain people into committing heinous Boards charter crimes. But that is just speculation on my part and certainly not an accusation. I for one will not be treated like a dumb fish if that is the case. (Which it may not be of course.)

In relation to the OPs point and in the absence of a previously available thread in which to articulate my opinion, I shall express myself here for the benefit of the bored, bewildered, paranoid, disinterested and even ignorant. (that last word is not an accusation either. Some may succumb to that particular facet so one must be careful on this forum.)

The WRC debacle is probably not responsible for the demise of DU or MN, however it did take up a lot of debate at Government level in its fight for realisation. This exposure at such an altitude did take the public/media focus off the aforementioned projects. So maybe it had a negative role.

If a Government realises that rail based public transport projects in the GDA aren't election deciders, but a well publicised mickey mouse rail project like the WRC, could be, then they will act accordingly. So they did. MN and DU were agreeable (more or less) after the rail review of 2003. The WRC wasn't. The backlash was unprecedented. So the whole thing was set in train (bad pun). Dick Fearn spent more time talking about it than DU. The media spent far too much time talking about it as the GDA was grinding to a halt.

Meanwhile the charade that was MN and DU continued. However, while Midleton waited 20 years, the WRC waited a mere 6 years to get itself a result. (don't mention the priests 1981 report as its irrelevant) As the 100 million was spent on the WRC, key improvements on the existing network were forgotten or even, dare I say it, neglected! As the WRC is the first major reopening of a line its obvious that it will be a bench mark. But as predicted its a bad one and will no doubt kill off future reopening proposals that perhaps have more commercial merit. Lets not forget that the south Wexford lines subvention was an issue within IE when pitted against the WRCs subvention. Without clear accounting practices from CIE, I can't expand on this any further, but I'm sure you get the point. I'm all for protecting what you have, maximising it, helping it, developing it and all before you head off in the direction of lashing money at whims.

Ive no doubt that the WRC will be used in the future by some politician as a reason not to reopen or develop a rail line. Can I prove it now? No. But I'm happy to wait, because a lot of what I have said in the past has come home to roost. Im rarely wrong and its a thankless task as its upsets many.:D

MN and DU will not be happening for a variety of reasons. Originally it was a complete lack of real Government commitment. Now its the reality that money cannot be raised via a PPP. However, considering the country's transport problems, the fact that the WRC became a story in the first place, does suggest it had a role in distorting the needy development of critical projects elsewhere.

Victor

DWCommuter wrote: »

Because the (second) Western Rail Corridor thread is locked and for no apparent reason?

As an April fools prank (not joke) I closed everything on the front page on Thursay night.

Dav re-opened them at lunchtime on Friday and seems to have missed those that were bumped onto the second page.

Judgement Day

The whole farce of the WRC reopening and the half-assed reopening of part of the Navan line and part of the Youghal branch could only happen in Ireland. Priests, pressure groups and "Transport 21", worked out on the back of an envelope in Buswells, have led to the present situation. As Derek says the kitty is empty and the two Dublin schemes will now never see the light of day. This piece http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0402/1224293621909.html?via=mr from last Saturday's Irish Times says all you need to know about IE's inability to see the big picture. Youghal a town terminally damaged by Fianna Fail and CIE's 1960s decision to close its rail link could have had new life breathed into it by the logical reopening of the line at the same time as Midleton. That it stopped in Midleton is due to a combination of utterly inept local politicians, Noel Dempsey,the WRC project, CIE/IE who according to the IT piece still say that it would not be viable.....CIE/IE don't think railways are viable - full stop!

DWCommuter

Victor wrote: »

As an April fools prank (not joke) I closed everything on the front page on Thursay night.

Dav re-opened them at lunchtime on Friday and seems to have missed those that were bumped onto the second page.

While I have no wish to waste my time arguing about it, its still not open and hence any comment that people feel the need to make re the WRC requires a new thread. So righting off new threads is a little childish in the circumstances.

Aidan1

could have had new life breathed into it by the logical reopening of the line at the same time as Midleton

OT, I know, but I'm afraid that's completely untrue. In much the same way as the WRC will make little or no difference to the people of Clare/Galway that live along it, the reopening of the rail line to Youghal would have made no difference whatsoever to the people living there.

It's time to stop seeing the reopening of old rail lines as a 'balanced regional development' panacea - they're not. They're a fig leaf grasped at by politicians as evidence that they can actually have an impact on regional decline, when in reality the factors at play are far older and deeper than most can comprehend. Youghal, like many other towns like it, has been slowly dying on its feet since the 1950s, reopening the rail line would not change that one bit.

Judgement Day

Aidan1 wrote: »

OT, I know, but I'm afraid that's completely untrue. In much the same way as the WRC will make little or no difference to the people of Clare/Galway that live along it, the reopening of the rail line to Youghal would have made no difference whatsoever to the people living there.

It's time to stop seeing the reopening of old rail lines as a 'balanced regional development' panacea - they're not. They're a fig leaf grasped at by politicians as evidence that they can actually have an impact on regional decline, when in reality the factors at play are far older and deeper than most can comprehend. Youghal, like many other towns like it, has been slowly dying on its feet since the 1950s, reopening the rail line would not change that one bit.

The railway brought thousands of people to Youghal ever summer in much the same way as the Dublin suburban (pre-DART) trains did to Bray and this would have made a major contribution to the overall economics of the sawn-off stump of the branch which now terminates at Midleton. It would have encouraged the development of Youghal as a commuter town and both Killeagh and Mogeely could have been opened up for housing instead of building estates all over the place with no public transport corridor. You cannot compare reopening to Youghal, a seaside resort with approx. 6,500 population on the doorstep of Cork, with reopening places like Craughwell and Ardrahan with only sheep living in the vicinity. Also the WRC is far slower than the road alternative whereas the rail journey to Youghal would be competitive. I can only put down your dismissal of my point to the possibility that you don't know the Cobh Junction/Youghal branch or its history.

Why do you think Youghal has died? Have you been there?

Neworder79

WRC2/3 are dead. Even the Mayo Taoiseach doesn't believe in it (as indicated in his support for a greenway). We'll be lucky to have money to pay for any rail services in the West if the countries finances continue on the current death spiral.

No one I know in the West wants WRC2/3 to go ahead, they never believed in WRC1 as planned. I don't think it can be blamed for stopping other projects, but there certainly were far higher priorates for Western infrastructure like providing an acceptable standard of safe road access which should have been addressed long ago. Many of the primary routes north of Glaway remain as poor as 20 years ago after a decade where 6 national motorways were built. The "Atlantic Corridor" is no more, best we can hope for is the odd grant for road re-alignments and maintaining the current rail service levels.

It was a nice idea had the business boom and population growth continued but with the flames at our heels it's time for the myopic WOT pressure group to stop fiddling and damaging the case for investment in western infrastructure.

dowlingm

Funnily enough there was an article about Youghal's hollowing out in the IT the other day, which remarked on the implosion of town centre retail arising from the opening of chain superstores on the outskirts. IE were also quoted as not wanting to reopen Youghal.

I don't think reopening Midleton-Youghal would do anything for regional development, it would solely facilitate easier access by people there to Cork city centre for commuting to jobs within walking distance of Kent. The rail distance is practically doubled through a fairly thin catchment. If the alignment had been actually preserved in any real way you could try a limited service but it wasn't. Even if it was relaid it would probably be only 50/60mph and not the 70mph that could really compete with the road. It would be important to minimise the number of extra station absent demonstrated demand - Youghal town, a P&R at Killeagh (incidentally - does IE still own the alignment?) and maybe nothing at all at Mogeely-Castlemartyr (a station would have been handy in my schooldays there).

If you get past those objections, which are pretty big ones, then you're looking at stabling a couple of trains at Youghal, so they would have two services to Cork in the morning peak (probably what is now the 0645 and 0745 ex Midleton which connect to Dublin trains) and two in the evening at minimum, plus extension of the current hourly service to Midleton off peak but it's hard to avoid netting up trains and drivers in any scenario that involves Youghal, and BE will be there to keep the economics as thin as possible.

One last note - the IE network statement retains Limerick-Foynes and Athenry-Claremorris but not Midleton-Youghal. Doesn't say much for its chances.

Aidan1

What makes you think that masses of people have any interest in taking seaside holidays in Youghal in the 21st century, railway or no railway? The nineteenth century is over - people now get in their cars, drive to Cork Airport and spend two weeks in Spain/Portugal/Wherever.

Secondly, Youghal was deliberately not chosen as a commuter town in a series of land-use and planning initiatives, from LUTS in 1978 right through to CASP - it's too far from Cork (nearly 50km by road), and far better alternatives exist that can be far more efficiently served with public transport (Midleton, Cobh and Mallow - and Carrigaline if BE got of their collective behinds). As for the fate of Youghal - in the last intercensal (02-06), Midleton grew by 26%, and Youghal basically flatlined. In fact, the stated aim of regional policy has been to keep employment and population growth in close to the city/harbour region, with Midleton expressly and deliberately chosen as the Eastern bounds of that region. If you know the area, then you will know that population density falls off very dramatically once you are east of Midleton (and always has) - it has only been the willingness of some Councillors to re-zone lands around Killeagh and Castlemartyr that has seen any increase (together with one off rural housing, which is of course a critical driver of urban decay).The fact that the town didn't grow during the biggest economic boom in the history of the State is evidence enough of the effect of this - the demographics of the town are worrying also.

Opening the railway would have done precisely nil for the IDA backed manufacturing and assembly plants that kept the town going through the 1990s, most of which have now closed, and it would have done very little for those commuting to Cork, because the traffic just doesn't exist to run any kind of service (all of this was well covered by the analyses in the 1990s and early 2000s), exactly the same as the case with the WRC. Opening this section would merely have severely diluted the business case for commuter rail in Cork, and would have significantly added to the cost base for very little gain (apart from the joy of running a 'commuter' train through largely empty countryside every day).

CIE

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

They demanded their crazy trainspotter wet dream. The made sure it became the most important rail project in the country. People in Dublin who did not even know there was a Dart Underground were "excited" about this amazing Western Rail Corridor which was constantly on the news in the papers. They could not wait to use it hearing amazing stories of trains flying up and down the West Coast. Anyone who pointed out it was a joke were called "haters of the people of the West..."

Then:

• IT FLOPPED
• IT THEN BECAME THE EXCUSE NOT TO INVEST IN RAIL TRANSPORT ANYWHERE.

Just how it was planned all along

Care to start making sense please? Nothing related to the WRC had anything to do with failure to re-expand the Irish railway network in other places. Nothing. Kindly stop propagandising for the government's benefit. The only things that caused "cancellation" of such projects were politics, and the related costs that were grossly inflated beyond reason. Not to mention that there's no case for calling WRC a "flop" at this juncture, especially when you have the state "competing" against itself by running buses at a higher frequency than the trains, and running no express trains, while (isn't this funny!) nobody questions that there's a need for such high-frequency services between Galway and Limerick. Try running trains at the same average speed and frequency and you'll see something remarkable happen.

aidan1 wrote: »

Opening the railway would have done precisely nil for the IDA backed manufacturing and assembly plants that kept the town going through the 1990s, most of which have now closed, and it would have done very little for those commuting to Cork, because the traffic just doesn't exist to run any kind of service (all of this was well covered by the analyses in the 1990s and early 2000s), exactly the same as the case with the WRC. Opening this section would merely have severely diluted the business case for commuter rail in Cork, and would have significantly added to the cost base for very little gain (apart from the joy of running a 'commuter' train through largely empty countryside every day)

Funny how the N25 (sorry, is that E30?) has no shortage of people driving through "largely empty countryside" though, and loads of local traffic causing jams in Youghal too; there's certainly no shortage of buses traversing that "largely empty countryside" as well. Youghal's population is equal to that of Midleton, the current rail terminus (how about that) and the majority of Youghal denizens, IINM, commute into Cork City; having as an alternative a train that does not get stuck in traffic, and upon which one could (hopefully, in light of the money overspent on the Midleton extension, at €75 million for a mere 6.2 mile-long extension, which is €12 million per mile; at least you get 25 trains a day for the trouble, but the cost ought to have been far lower) cost a great deal less to the taxpayer than a parallel M25 motorway (which would itself be subject to traffic jams). 20 buses per day weekdays (19 outbound and 22 inbound), 19 on Saturday 17 on Sunday between Cork and Youghal bespeak demand enough for a train; so while equally-populated Midleton (and environs) have the 20-odd buses plus 25 trains, Youghal has the buses alone, in spite of equal potential for demand...hmm.

Aidan1

Youghal's population is equal to that of Midleton

Nope. As per the 2006 census, Midleton (+ Environs) has a population of 10,048, while Youghal (+Environs) has a population of 6,785. Furthermore, Midleton has a significant additional catchment to the south, which contributes a lot of business to the park and ride (or just the riding bit). Moreover, in both the CASP and the SLAP(!) for Midleton, Midleton was/is designated for substantial future growth, while Youghal is not.

Funny how the N25 (sorry, is that E30?) has no shortage of people driving through "largely empty countryside" though, and loads of local traffic causing jams in Youghal too

The 'N' in N25 is a helpful guide as to the reason for that - it's a national route, and part of the main Cork/Waterford road. Most of the traffic just skips over the Youghal bypass. Again, just like the WRC, adding a train to an already quite good bus service will do very little to help the town - it'll just add expense, and damage the (actually quite successful) Midleton commuter service.

And what has made the Midleton service work? Short journey times (well and truly competitive with car and bus), critical mass of population, and an integrated landuse and transport plan which was built around the service from the outset. And not running nearly empty railcars through countryside populated by one off housing, and little critical mass.

DWCommuter

Aidan1 wrote: »

Nope. As per the 2006 census, Midleton (+ Environs) has a population of 10,048, while Youghal (+Environs) has a population of 6,785. Furthermore, Midleton has a significant additional catchment to the south, which contributes a lot of business to the park and ride (or just the riding bit). Moreover, in both the CASP and the SLAP(!) for Midleton, Midleton was/is designated for substantial future growth, while Youghal is not.



The 'N' in N25 is a helpful guide as to the reason for that - it's a national route, and part of the main Cork/Waterford road. Most of the traffic just skips over the Youghal bypass. Again, just like the WRC, adding a train to an already quite good bus service will do very little to help the town - it'll just add expense, and damage the (actually quite successful) Midleton commuter service.

And what has made the Midleton service work? Short journey times (well and truly competitive with car and bus), critical mass of population, and an integrated landuse and transport plan which was built around the service from the outset. And not running nearly empty railcars through countryside populated by one off housing, and little critical mass.

Welcome to the club of talking sense. There's not many of us in it, but who knows!

OurLadyofKnock

Aidan1 wrote: »

And what has made the Midleton service work? Short journey times (well and truly competitive with car and bus), critical mass of population, and an integrated landuse and transport plan which was built around the service from the outset. And not running nearly empty railcars through countryside populated by one off housing, and little critical mass.

I took it a few months ago and it is a super little service. Decent speed and a very handy timetable. Not surprised it is a winner.

DWCommuter

CIE wrote: »

Care to start making sense please? Nothing related to the WRC had anything to do with failure to re-expand the Irish railway network in other places. Nothing. Kindly stop propagandising for the government's benefit. The only things that caused "cancellation" of such projects were politics, and the related costs that were grossly inflated beyond reason. Not to mention that there's no case for calling WRC a "flop" at this juncture, especially when you have the state "competing" against itself by running buses at a higher frequency than the trains, and running no express trains, while (isn't this funny!) nobody questions that there's a need for such high-frequency services between Galway and Limerick. Try running trains at the same average speed and frequency and you'll see something remarkable happen.Funny how the N25 (sorry, is that E30?) has no shortage of people driving through "largely empty countryside" though, and loads of local traffic causing jams in Youghal too; there's certainly no shortage of buses traversing that "largely empty countryside" as well. Youghal's population is equal to that of Midleton, the current rail terminus (how about that) and the majority of Youghal denizens, IINM, commute into Cork City; having as an alternative a train that does not get stuck in traffic, and upon which one could (hopefully, in light of the money overspent on the Midleton extension, at €75 million for a mere 6.2 mile-long extension, which is €12 million per mile; at least you get 25 trains a day for the trouble, but the cost ought to have been far lower) cost a great deal less to the taxpayer than a parallel M25 motorway (which would itself be subject to traffic jams). 20 buses per day weekdays (19 outbound and 22 inbound), 19 on Saturday 17 on Sunday between Cork and Youghal bespeak demand enough for a train; so while equally-populated Midleton (and environs) have the 20-odd buses plus 25 trains, Youghal has the buses alone, in spite of equal potential for demand...hmm.

Your quotes both intrigue and amuse in equal measure.

Nothing related to the WRC had anything to do with failure to re-expand the Irish railway network in other places.

Surely it played a role in the demise of Waterford - Rosslare? Surely I don't have to tell you how?:D

The only things that caused "cancellation" of such projects were politics, and the related costs that were grossly inflated beyond reason.

Any evidence of what projects costs were/are grossly inflated?

Not to mention that there's no case for calling WRC a "flop" at this juncture, especially when you have the state "competing" against itself by running buses at a higher frequency than the trains, and running no express trains, while (isn't this funny!) nobody questions that there's a need for such high-frequency services between Galway and Limerick. Try running trains at the same average speed and frequency and you'll see something remarkable happen.

Competition is good. Your namesake, CIE, have been doing it for years with absolutely no regard for anything! Can you tell me and indeed the forum how many trains you'd like to see running on the WRC? Don't you realise that the WRC linespeed cannot be increased due to the fact that its alignment is effectively a donkey track? You genuinely believe that an express city to city service on the WRC would work? Show me some evidence. In fact please don't come on here and make statements without any shred of evidence.

Over to you. Back it up.

dowlingm

CIE - the only way you get the bus traffic onto the railway is to remove BE's license for the 260. Not gonna happen. As Aidan1 pointed out, south of Midleton is Whitegate. South of Youghal is the Celtic Sea, east of it the Blackwater and north of it damn all. Short of levying a 100% tax on Santa Ponza, it seems unlikely that Youghal's going to make up the rest from bucket and spade travel.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

The railway brought thousands of people to Youghal ever summer in much the same way as the Dublin suburban (pre-DART) trains did to Bray and this would have made a major contribution to the overall economics of the sawn-off stump of the branch which now terminates at Midleton. It would have encouraged the development of Youghal as a commuter town and both Killeagh and Mogeely could have been opened up for housing instead of building estates all over the place with no public transport corridor. You cannot compare reopening to Youghal, a seaside resort with approx. 6,500 population on the doorstep of Cork, with reopening places like Craughwell and Ardrahan with only sheep living in the vicinity. Also the WRC is far slower than the road alternative whereas the rail journey to Youghal would be competitive. I can only put down your dismissal of my point to the possibility that you don't know the Cobh Junction/Youghal branch or its history.

Why do you think Youghal has died? Have you been there?

While Youghal is indeed of bigger stature than Craughwell and Ardrahan, its promotion as a rail connected commuter town goes against every type of decent planning in the book. We already have existing rail connected towns like Longford, Carlow, Gorey and Mullingar acting as unsustainable dormer towns with a history of poor rail services that no amount of sense or money can improve to a point where it makes sense.

With respect JD, I fear you see Youghal as a candidate for the rediculous long distance rail commute that has proven to be wrong and unsustainable. As a past supporter of Navan, I now see the error of our ways.

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

With respect JD, I fear you see Youghal as a candidate for the rediculous long distance rail commute that has proven to be wrong and unsustainable. As a past supporter of Navan, I now see the error of our ways.

Once upon a time IE used to run a commuter ex Charleville

The difference between Navan and Youghal is that Navan adds resiliency to the network (if it had existed when Broadmeadow went down at least railcars could have been shuttled to and from Drogheda Depot). Youghal has no additional upside.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Once upon a time IE used to run a commuter ex Charleville

The difference between Navan and Youghal is that Navan adds resiliency to the network (if it had existed when Broadmeadow went down at least railcars could have been shuttled to and from Drogheda Depot). Youghal has no additional upside.

Once upon a time IE used to run a commuter ex Charleville

For their own benefit.

Navan adds resiliency to the network

It doesn't.

Judgement Day

Aidan1 wrote: »

What makes you think that masses of people have any interest in taking seaside holidays in Youghal in the 21st century, railway or no railway? The nineteenth century is over - people now get in their cars, drive to Cork Airport and spend two weeks in Spain/Portugal/Wherever.

Day trippers arriving at Youghal in Victorian/Edwardian times - they weren't people substituting the "Grand Tour" with Youghal - they were day trippers!

If you knew anything about the line you would know that I was not suggesting that people would go to Youghal instead of Spain for the annual holidays - no more than the people of Dublin choose to go to Bray or Howth for their holidays rather than Spain. Funny thing is though that the DART carries thousands of people to both seaside destinations every summer - I guess they must be lost on their way to the airport.

As for LUTS, people have been pointing out the folly of excluding Youghal from the reopening of the line since the study was carried out. However, with assholes like CIE saying there wouldn't be sufficient demand for the service what hope was there than any damn useless politicians would get their fingers out. Have you any figures to show me what a resounding success Midleton has been? How is it that people commute from Dundalk, Drogheda, Longford, Athlone, Mullingar, Arklow, Gorey etc to Dublin to work but Youghal is too far from Cork. :rolleyes:

westtip

JD lovely b&w photo from you library - not a car in sight, only one solution for Youhgal - Cork. Greenway. Wil get Tired HUngry Tourists - and indeed locals having a day trip to Youghal on their bikes. They will in turn eat chips, drink beer, eat chocolate drink coke. In otherwords spend money.

10,000 people a month using Great Western Greenway and not a city within 40 miles of the head of trail.

less than 5,000 people a month using WRC new section - supposedly linking two cities.

How many poeple would use a greenway between Cork and Youghal - thousands - it would be a local attraction as well as an international tourist attraction.

We need to reinvent our tourism not re-open 19th century rail alirnments in some mythical belief we are all going to pack ginger beer and chees sandwiches into our knapsacks for a family day out.

Believe me the WRC is doomed and will be a greenway within 3 years as will Youhgal - Cork.

DWCommuter

westtip wrote: »

JD lovely b&w photo from you library - not a car in sight, only one solution for Youhgal - Cork. Greenway. Wil get Tired HUngry Tourists - and indeed locals having a day trip to Youghal on their bikes. They will in turn eat chips, drink beer, eat chocolate drink coke. In otherwords spend money.

10,000 people a month using Great Western Greenway and not a city within 40 miles of the head of trail.

less than 5,000 people a month using WRC new section - supposedly linking two cities.

How many poeple would use a greenway between Cork and Youghal - thousands - it would be a local attraction as well as an international tourist attraction.

We need to reinvent our tourism not re-open 19th century rail alirnments in some mythical belief we are all going to pack ginger beer and chees sandwiches into our knapsacks for a family day out.

Believe me the WRC is doomed and will be a greenway within 3 years as will Youhgal - Cork.

And may I take this opportunity to say that I may be really wrong about the Tuam reopening. It appears that FG have returned to form and will act out their mid 80s approach to the rail network. Good for nobody, but really bad for the WRC. I'll dig out my old chopper and see you in Ballygunin.:D

Judgement Day

DWCommuter wrote: »

And may I take this opportunity to say that I may be really wrong about the Tuam reopening. It appears that FG have returned to form and will act out their mid 80s approach to the rail network. Good for nobody, but really bad for the WRC. I'll dig out my old chopper and see you in Ballygunin.:D

There's a surprise then! Who could have predicted that from the party of Garret 'anti-joined up Luas' Fitzgerald. :rolleyes:

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's a surprise then! Who could have predicted that from the party of Garret 'anti-joined up Luas' Fitzgerald. :rolleyes:

Personally I never held out any hope that a FG lead Government would be radical in terms of Public Transport. They invariably get into Government after financial chaos, clean it up a bit and then hand it back to FF to mess up again. Railways will be pruned no doubt. It inevitably all comes back to the political mindset in Ireland and the haphazard and careless approach to public transport. Even with money we made a crapola of it. So I'm ****ed if I'm gonna start a fresh attack on FG or LAB. Its pointless. They are the victims of their own political cycle.

Expectancy is real knowledge.:D

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

It doesn't (add resilency to the network to connect Dunboyne and Navan)

Why not? Even if you don't take the resilency angle having Navan-Clonsilla open would force IE to justify Navan-Slane-Drogheda's existence since the Tara could go to North Wall via Clonsilla as easy as it could the Northern Line.

Aidan1

How is it that people commute from Dundalk, Drogheda, Longford, Athlone, Mullingar, Arklow, Gorey etc to Dublin to work but Youghal is too far from Cork.

Thank you, you have just made my point for me.

Long distance commuting is not an ideal to be cherished and replicated, it is an inevitable consequence of bad planning. For all of it's failings, at least the LUTS/CASP model has tried to avoid it, and to keep the city region coherent and sustainable. Are you seriously suggesting that Cork should try and expand it's commuter belt as far as possible? Why?

south of Midleton is Whitegate

And Cloyne, Ballycotton, Aghada, Saleen, Ballinacurra ... between Cloyne, Ballycotton and Corkbeg EDs in 2006 there was more than 6,000 people (6,144). On a more general note, if you take the total population of the EDs (Urban and Rural) in 2006, Midleton ED has a pop. of 30,577, and Youghal ED has a pop. of 10,603.

dermo88

The arguments put forward by CIE have been addressed many times over. When it came to Limerick to Galway, the facts are, it was rebuilt on a very poor alignment. CIE mentioned using tilting trains in a previous post, which cost 30% more to buy than normal rolling stock suited for the trip distance based on cost, power/weight ratio, fuel consumption and a host of other factors.

Next - showing pictures of the Edwardian/Victorian age is romantic, but inappropriate in the context of the 21st century. I have not been to Youghal since 1994, so I am unable to judge. I do know that Midleton commuter is a success, but adding on the additional 30 kilometers to Youghal would be a repeat of the Greystones fiasco for DART, where it upset the service pattern. On a sidenote - Youghal was where I had my first proper Pint of Guinness after my Leaving Cert.

As for the CSP/LUTS, it appears to be the first time that a plan was implemented and the city rewarded properly for being proactive. Its a shame it took 30 years to do so, but better late than never.

As for WRC replacing Rosslare to Waterford, that was inevitable once the Beet traffic went in 2006. As long as the Sugar Beet was around, then it was feasible to provide a service. Once it went, the revenue recovery ratio (RRR) vs cost dropped to 2%. Judging by similar reports on comparable regional lines run by Renfe (Spain), CFR (Romania), DR (East Germany), CP (Portugal) the basis of survival was given as 1,000 passengers per annum per kilometer, OR/AND RRR of 25%. Neither of these are achievable with the investment required on Rosslare to Waterford. They are possible with some ambition on the Waterford to Galway axis in the medium to long term. Population levels are greater than they were at the time of the original closure and cutback in April 1976.

Aidan1 "Long distance commuting is not an ideal to be cherished and replicated, it is an inevitable consequence of bad planning"

Yes, very true. But Irish people refuse to build up, and choose to build out. That was expected to change, but it has yet to happen, and probably never will. Its there now, however undesirable it is.

DWCommuter

It appears that FG have returned to form and will act out their mid 80s approach to the rail network.

If I remember the network of the mid 1980's, it was shambolic. The track was ancient. The rolling stock was aging rapidly. Frankly speaking, the network of 2010 is a world away from that of Jim Mitchells 1984 "Building on reality". I HOPE Fine Gael are rather more enlightened and realise that if they wish to get people out of cars, they need to provide viable alternatives, rather than paying lip service to it. However, being "mean" to the railway has some nice side effects. The management start working as if a fire has been lit under their bottoms. Speeds improve "miraculously". The Cost/Revenue ratio ALSO improves. I see no harm whatsoever on trimming some fat within Iarnrod Eireann.

As regards Navan, its probably the most viable reopening there is. A compromise however is to make it Single track with crossing loops beyond Dunboyne, which should be sufficient initially. Double track it later on. Also, do the majority of people in Navan actually care, or is it a secondary issue. Along the towns of Swinford, Tubbercurry out West, its a secondary issue also, with Health, Employment, Education and other issues getting far higher priority.

dowlingm

I don't know what on earth "resiliency" means. It sounds too much like Sir Humphrey Appleby has invaded before Phil and Betty visit next month. I will hazard a guess and ask for clarification.

- Does "resiliency" mean that in connecting another town of 25,000 people including its hinterland, it ensures more passengers and benefits the network as a whole, and consequently justifies the existence and survival of the system in its present condition? Does this resiliency also justify further expansion?"

Finally - in comparing the attitude of Fine Gael in 1984 with Jim Mitchell as Minister for Transport, it has to be stated that CIE's costs were running out of control. Social and Financial objectives have to be balanced in a sensible manner. The people at the CIE "love in" scream bloody blue murder when that fundamental fact is stated. Jim Mitchell did regard DART as a white elephant initially. He stated that it was the CIE rail division that gave him the greatest cause of concern when he took office in 1984 as Minister for Transport. He then partially implemented McKinsey II (1981 report) by splitting into 3 subsidiaries. The result - growth for the rail network, and there is no denying that fact since, even with haphazard management. DART is now a proven success. So is LUAS. So is Midleton commuter. There is no use retaining 19th century heritage routes such as Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy when the potential to improve or save them with relatively small amounts of cash does NOT exist. The money and rolling stock is better off improving potentially better routes, including Waterford-Limerick Jctn, and rebuilding Navan-Clonsilla. Or

Dare I mention the line through the Phoenix Park Tunnel, and eventually DART Underground?

steamengine

Judgement Day wrote: »

If you knew anything about the line you would know that I was not suggesting that people would go to Youghal instead of Spain for the annual holidays - no more than the people of Dublin choose to go to Bray or Howth for their holidays rather than Spain. Funny thing is though that the DART carries thousands of people to both seaside destinations every summer - I guess they must be lost on their way to the airport.

Brilliant photo JD !!! - the odd thing about it is that people also fly out to destinations such as the I.O.M., Blackpool etc etc., in essence, places similar to Youghal. Youghal, and other seaside destinations like it, could be a lot more viable than they are at present, the closure of its railway service in the 70's certainly wouldn't have done anything to boost tourism and most likely the closure was indeed a factor in the fall-off . Youghal is steeped in medieval history, a walled town, one of the country's first seaports (and still an active port), an early university, and alms houses on the main street, all centuries old. Oodles going for it historically, not forgetting Walter Raleigh. Reading that Irish Times article is quite sad.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Why not? Even if you don't take the resilency angle having Navan-Clonsilla open would force IE to justify Navan-Slane-Drogheda's existence since the Tara could go to North Wall via Clonsilla as easy as it could the Northern Line.

Justify Navan - Drogheda? No they wouldn't. They'd just close it down.

Aard

Aidan1 wrote: »

Long distance commuting is not an ideal to be cherished and replicated, it is an inevitable consequence of bad planning. For all of it's failings, at least the LUTS/CASP model has tried to avoid it, and to keep the city region coherent and sustainable. Are you seriously suggesting that Cork should try and expand it's commuter belt as far as possible? Why?

+1

My guess would be that it's easier to suggest propping up Youghal as a commuter town for Cork, rather than address the real problems the town faces:
- one-off housing reducing the density of the town, and by extention its critical mass;
- big-box stores on the outskirts rotting the core.

Turning it into a dormitory town is clearly the answer... :rolleyes: Instead of having the people spend their day in Youghal, they'd rather have them spend their day in Cork. That's one sure-fire way to drain more life out of the town. Granted, the train operates both ways, but who in the City is gonna take it out to Youghal when they can easily drive?

Youghal needs to address its bad planning policies before addressing the more trivial matter of the railway. Otherwise it's a case of cart before the horse.

DWCommuter

From Dermo;

As regards Navan, its probably the most viable reopening there is. A compromise however is to make it Single track with crossing loops beyond Dunboyne, which should be sufficient initially. Double track it later on. Also, do the majority of people in Navan actually care, or is it a secondary issue. Along the towns of Swinford, Tubbercurry out West, its a secondary issue also, with Health, Employment, Education and other issues getting far higher priority.

Very few in Navan cared about the rail link. They moaned about the traffic problems on the N3. They loosely supported the idea of a railway, but realistically a lot worked in parts of Dublin that the railway wouldn't serve even via a connection. Two things happened to change everything. Recession brought a reduction in commuters and the M3 opened. Had the boom continued more houses would have been built in Navan and its environs and this may have kept the railway idea alive despite a continuation of bad planning. Now that the boom is over and we have all been reality checked, never again should we encourage towns like Navan to be commuter towns for Dublin. They have the M3 now and pay a toll as well as a contribution from their taxes to cover any shortfall by the toll operators. Foisting another financial drain on them via a railway that will never cover its costs unless we perhaps build even more houses out there is just not on.

I was a supporter of the Navan rail line for a long time. Apart from the very obvious negligence towards its alignment from Government and MCC, it quickly became apparent that the figures didn't stand up anyway and that it was being used as a safety net for Noel Dempsey and nothing else. The line to Navan is nothing more than a blatant example of how we anticipated throwing 100s and 100s of millions at a project to a town with a swelling of housing developments that in themselves were built because landbanks in Dublin were being sat on to increase their value. (thankfully a lot of this is now in NAMA)

It was all bonkers. Let it go to the wayside and if things ever pick up again, don't build another goddamn housing estate in Navan. It doesn't need one.

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Justify Navan - Drogheda? No they wouldn't. They'd just close it down.

Yes - except then you'd be closing a railway with only one use and replacing it with one that had two. The manner in which the Navan line connects at Drogheda essentially rules out a passenger service there without major works there as well as upgrades to the trackage to Navan. At the very least the line should go as far as Dunshaughlin.

dermo88: Resilience is the ability to provide and maintain an acceptable level of service in the face of faults and challenges to normal operation.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Yes - except then you'd be closing a railway with only one use and replacing it with one that had two. The manner in which the Navan line connects at Drogheda essentially rules out a passenger service there without major works there as well as upgrades to the trackage to Navan. At the very least the line should go as far as Dunshaughlin.

dermo88: Resilience is the ability to provide and maintain an acceptable level of service in the face of faults and challenges to normal operation.

See my post above. It won't be built and doesn't need to be built. And Tara Mines traffic is hardly reliable in the long term. Nor do I favor resilience as being a factor in its reopening. Accidents happen. Trains get stuck and I think this resilience argument has merits but is weak.

OurLadyofKnock

This wibbling pulled off Giger Ale Productions is not only 100% completely serious but is an insight into the psychological landscape of the typical WRC supporter and how these people hogged the entire rail transport debate in this country which resulted in the mess we are in now.

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2210/Varadkar-to-review-road-and-rail-projects

Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

Anyone else want to dispute my statements on this thread.

Judgement Day

Aard wrote: »

+1

My guess would be that it's easier to suggest propping up Youghal as a commuter town for Cork, rather than address the real problems the town faces:
- one-off housing reducing the density of the town, and by extention its critical mass;
- big-box stores on the outskirts rotting the core.

Turning it into a dormitory town is clearly the answer... :rolleyes: Instead of having the people spend their day in Youghal, they'd rather have them spend their day in Cork. That's one sure-fire way to drain more life out of the town. Granted, the train operates both ways, but who in the City is gonna take it out to Youghal when they can easily drive?

Youghal needs to address its bad planning policies before addressing the more trivial matter of the railway. Otherwise it's a case of cart before the horse.

I never suggested that turning Youghal into a dormitory town would be the saving of it, part of it - yes. Do you think that it's not already a commuter town despite having no rail link? By making it a more attractive commute it would encourage people to want to live there, and just because the breadwinners in a family might have to commute to work in Cork doesn't mean the rest of the family would also - they would most probably be at school, doing their shopping etc in the town. I agree that out of town shopping centres rot the core out of a town but there's more than that behind Youghal's decline. Another major problem which affects the town is the non existence of a well thought out tourism development strategy for the country as a whole. Have a think about it before replying as your reasoning is very simplistic.

DWCommuter

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

This wibbling pulled off Giger Ale Productions is not only 100% completely serious but is an insight into the psychological landscape of the typical WRC supporter and how these people hogged the entire rail transport debate in this country which resulted in the mess we are in now.

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2210/Varadkar-to-review-road-and-rail-projects



Anyone else want to dispute my statements on this thread.

I read that earlier. ****ing demented and still believing the same old ****. It must be ingrained in the mind of the old fart trainspotter that cannot see beyond 21st century living. What a pity that it can't be challenged on that particular site.:rolleyes:

If I may add, the site you took it from is almost surreal in it representation of rail matters. (despite its claim to being the "Informed Online resource for all matters relating to Irish Railways) If one was new to railways in Ireland and that site came up in a google search, you would end up with such a backward view of Irish Railways that you would be convinced we were still an antiquated museum for Irish/British trainspotters.

Recent news that MN and DU are about to be shafted, barely makes a thread on it, while the WRC and similar lines are kept relatively up to date via threads. It really makes the banner claim so irrelevant. But there you go!:rolleyes:

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

I never suggested that turning Youghal into a dormitory town would be the saving of it, part of it - yes. Do you think that it's not already a commuter town despite having no rail link? By making it a more attractive commute it would encourage people to want to live there, and just because the breadwinners in a family might have to commute to work in Cork doesn't mean the rest of the family would also - they would most probably be at school, doing their shopping etc in the town. I agree that out of town shopping centres rot the core out of a town but there's more than that behind Youghal's decline. Another major problem which affects the town is the non existence of a well thought out tourism development strategy for the country as a whole. Have a think about it before replying as your reasoning is very simplistic.

Honestly JD, while I respect a lot of what you have to say, this Youghal thing is going nowhere and it will generate no support beyond a trainspotter that merely wants to see previous haunts reopened for no reason beyond nostalgia.

dermo88

Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.

weehamster

I really wish people get real.:mad: So for all those dreamers who still have their heads in the clouds...

There is no money around to build any rail or road project. None. There isn't a secret stash of cash hidden somewhere that will suddenly appear out of the blue. Oh yeh, and the state owes hundreds of billions of Euros.

Have a nice day.:)

Aard

@Judgement Day:

I didn't mean that you thought turning Youghal into a dormitory town would be its saving. What I meant was that it has more pressing issues to deal with. I would support a plan to reopen the line, as long as it was part of an overall strategy. Unfortunately, many politicians seem to think that a railway line by itself is a panacea.

sdanseo

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

They demanded their crazy trainspotter wet dream. The made sure it became the most important rail project in the country. People in Dublin who did not even know there was a Dart Underground were "excited" about this amazing Western Rail Corridor which was constantly on the news in the papers. They could not wait to use it hearing amazing stories of trains flying up and down the West Coast. Anyone who pointed out it was a joke were called "haters of the people of the West..."

Then:

• IT FLOPPED

• IT THEN BECAME THE EXCUSE NOT TO INVEST IN RAIL TRANSPORT ANYWHERE.

Just how it was planned all along.

Maybe you'd get more sympathetic replies here...

shamwari

dermo88 wrote: »

That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.

I'm sure you'll get over it. Time heals.

Partizan

dermo88 wrote: »

Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.

Maybe you didnt like his chicken dinner

OurLadyofKnock

dermo88 wrote: »

Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.

The deluded fellow who from the mainland wrote endless letters to the Irish media talking about reducing road congestion in the West of Ireland.

This thread is great. You can see the fear in their Chicken Dinner eyes. They want it shut down as it is truth. Just like when we said the WRC would flop was the truth.

Not one of the Lemon Curd Contingent can say. "You guys were right abuot the WRC all along..." Nope not a man among any of them.

It takes a man to admit he was wrong. It take a maggot to post a link to a conspiricy thorey message board to shut a thread down and a cowardly lesser maggot to give it a thumbs up with a creppy smirk on their pasty faces.

History will record the truth. Trainspotters kill Transport 21 as much as Bertie. They kept all eyes on a ball which was deflated and incapble of rolling properly.

Derek when is your book coming out?