a4 training

mumfordandsons

HI,

quick question mainly to a4 please. i started racing again this year , due sickness ect , lack of any good training. can i ask a4 how much per week or per month from say dec in km would you have done.
just trying to compare to my own. any information would be great.

also can i ask does anyone use any stuff like maximuscle or others to help them on bike. thanks.

and last question. -- for any a4 in sundays race that finished close to winner what was your aver speed.
thanks

Rocketpocket

i was in the successfull break sunday,it averaged 34.8kph. Got in a break in saturdays race with some A3s untill we were caught by scratch on last lap,averaged 40kph.

Ryaner

Second group on Sunday and avg of 34.1.

Training is more about quality than quantity. You can have a week of 20+ hours and get less benefit than 2-3 properly hard sessions of 2 hours each, at least for racing. It is a different beast if you are training for endurance.

Lumen

The first rule of training is...no one talks about training.

Last spring for A4 I was doing relatively little, maybe four hours a week of sustained intensity including the races. It worked fine as the A4 races were so short, although I wasn't close to winning anything. Then I did a couple of long hard sportives (160km+) and my knee exploded.

This year I'm taking the long view, coming back from six months off the bike with the knee problem. I have an A3 licence and I'm trying to build endurance for 100km races, so have worked up to about 10 hours a week of medium intensity (including commuting) with the odd burst. I'm dog slow but I can now do >100km without eating much so progress is being made.

Everyone's training needs are different.

If you're just trying to avoid getting dropped then look at your power/weight for the "hills", as you're unlikely to get dropped on the flat if you're paying attention.

If you actually intend to win races then there are no shortcuts unless you have a demon sprint or freakish natural ability.

Ignore nothing and be patient.

kennyb3

Lumen wrote: »

The first rule of training is...no one talks about training.

What is the story with this actually? I ve noticed this seems to be a real thing in cycling, the logs here are quiet enough and the number of threads on new bikes, locks and so on always far outweighs training threads/discussions.

I was kind of half thinking about moving my log over here with the reasoning of trying to show newcomers what im doing, showing what its like for a newbie starting into A4 and hopefully charting some progress.

In saying that im very unscientific (dont use garmin or even a HRM at present), just go on feel. But i definitely think some newer riders see 37-40km/ph and think god i cant do that. On my own i cant break than 30km/ph for more than 50km yet found my first A4 race a piece of p'iss (well until i crashed:rolleyes:), although that was a flat handy one.

I guess it can depend on loads of factors whether you're able - age, weight, fitness, ability to suffer.

Diarmuid

kennyb3 wrote: »

What is the story with this actually? I ve noticed this seems to be a real thing in cycling, the logs here are quiet enough and the number of threads on new bikes, locks and so on always far outweighs training threads/discussions..

If you are training for A4's I don't think you really need to focus a lot on building a structured training plan with periodization , intervals etc. If you go for regular spins on your own in the mountains and climb at a good intensity then you'll have no problem in the A4 pack. It may not be the most time efficient but you'll get there. That probably won't work for A2's and up but worry about that when you get there.

shaungil

After getting a decent base and being reasonably fit I find interval and hill training the most important things.

Hills cause I'm a large unit (though a stone lighter than last year) and intervals to be able to go when the pace goes up or to be able to attack or try to bridge to an attack.

The best training for racing is training though so though I was averaging 11hrs a week including a lot of commuting it's now dropped as I race.

a lot of racing is fine if you are confident to get stuck in the middle of the bunch. But really the best way of knowing is to just give it a lash.

ROK ON

I guess why most experienced cyclists don't get Overawed by the speed of a race or event is that the fitness or effort put out by a rider is only some of the factors. Wind speed and direction, road surface, drafting etc all influence speed.
I was out for two hours last night the first hour into the wind was significantly slower than the second hour. However I worked much harder in the first hour.
Also riding in a pack allows any of us to sustain much higher speeds than we would normally be capable of on our own.

I have done only one race. It was my fastest ever 48k. I was dropped. However when I looked at my effort I spent the vast majority of the event between threshold and anaerobic. Despite my slowness I was not slacking - I was going as hard as i could in terms of effort. That is probably more important than average speed.

Lumen

kennyb3 wrote: »

In saying that im very unscientific (dont use garmin or even a HRM at present), just go on feel. But i definitely think some newer riders see 37-40km/ph and think god i cant do that. On my own i cant break than 30km/ph for more than 50km yet found my first A4 race a piece of p'iss

Numbers from my powermeter show that for a flattish course, cycling behind a big bunch at 39kph requires less power than cycling my own at 28kph.

Examples:

Paddy's day race, A3, 39.4kph, 167W (192W normalised). Epic wheelsucking.
Last Sunday easy spin: 27.8kph, 186W (201W normalised). Solo.

Now obviously there are surges in a race, and wheelsucking doesn't help much on the bumps, but it just goes to show the effect of drafting.

None of that matters if you actually intend to win because sooner or later you're going to get exposed to the wind.

As Diarmuid says, just ride your bike more.

kennyb3

Diarmuid wrote: »

If you are training for A4's I don't think you really need to focus a lot on building a structured training plan with periodization , intervals etc. If you go for regular spins on your own in the mountains and climb at a good intensity then you'll have no problem in the A4 pack. It may not be the most time efficient but you'll get there. That probably won't work for A2's and up but worry about that when you get there.

I'd say this more describes what i do - 200km a week with one long spin of circa 80km alternating every week between alone and the club and then a couple of days of hill reps up howth mixed in with some commutes.

Beasty

kennyb3 wrote: »

What is the story with this actually? I ve noticed this seems to be a real thing in cycling, the logs here are quiet enough and the number of threads on new bikes, locks and so on always far outweighs training threads/discussions.

A few factors here

1. The A/R/T training logs have been running for much longer
2. You only get triathletes over there - here you get commuters, MTB'rs, racers, casual weekend cyclists etc
3. Most serious roadies are too busy spending time on their bikes to get into all this scientific stuff
4. Most of those who tend to maintain training logs over here have never actually won anything;)

Lumen

Beasty wrote: »

A few factors here

1. The A/R/T training logs have been running for much longer
2. You only get triathletes over there - here you get commuters, MTB'rs, racers, casual weekend cyclists etc
3. Most serious roadies are too busy spending time on their bikes to get into all this scientific stuff
4. Most of those who tend to maintain training logs over here have never actually won anything;)

5. Omerta.

kennyb3

Lumen wrote: »

Numbers from my powermeter show that for a flattish course, cycling behind a big bunch at 39kph requires less power than cycling my own at 28kph.

Examples:

Paddy's day race, A3, 39.4kph, 167W (192W normalised). Epic wheelsucking.
Last Sunday easy spin: 27.8kph, 186W (201W normalised). Solo.

Good stuff, this is exactly what others out there considering starting need to see. This is exactly why i wanted to get into this.

What i mean is rewind a year ago and i didnt have a clue (i still dont compared to where i ll be this time next year) but i was overawed with looking at stats from races, even after doing a few club league races and finding them ok. I couldnt imagine doing an A4 race.

Having done an A4 race last week i ve seen that they arent half as tough as i imagined (bit early to say that really but anywho), so if anyone out there who is considering it just do it!

dare2be

What i have gathered in the short space of time over on this forum is

1. No need for a 'plan' - time in the saddle is the key
2. Take to the hills. I take it that this is more for endurance/power
3. Interval training for speed. Anybody got any specific interval sessions that a new A4 rider could learn from?
4. Join a club and enter club races
5. If not racing at the weekend, long moderate intensity rides. Would you recommend addition of hills and intervals into this ride?

When i take to the hills on my weekend spins i try to keep myself on the saddle and stand up on the bike of i can help it. When is the best time to stand and sit??

Diarmuid

dare2be wrote: »

What i have gathered in the short space of time over on this forum is

Riding the hills is interval training. Working going up, resting going down. How you do it: in the saddle /out of the saddle / high gear / low gear is mostly personal preference.
Just ride your bike and learn to suffer (and join a club)

dare2be

Diarmuid wrote: »

Riding the hills is interval training. Working going up, resting going down. How you do it: in the saddle /out of the saddle / high gear / low gear is mostly personal preference.
Just ride your bike and learn to suffer (and join a club)

Ok, so what about sessions like taking a flat 1/2km stretch of road and really tearing it up x say 5reps? Sounds like speed work (similar to running)

But for all intensive purposes an A4 rider would not be worrying about this in his 1st season? Unless of course you have natural talent etc

kennyb3

dare2be wrote: »

Ok, so what about sessions like taking a flat 1/2km stretch of road and really tearing it up x say 5reps? Sounds like speed work (similar to running)

But for all intensive purposes an A4 rider would not be worrying about this in his 1st season? Unless of course you have natural talent etc

Depends if they want to be able to make a break or not. A4 is boring enough at times from what i ve seen and read with wanting to sit in the bunch for the whole year.

Personally i plan on trying to get a few points if possible later in the season on the hillier courses. May be ambitious but you ve got to have goals

shaungil

Quote of the year so far I heard was from emma pooley paraphrasing Gary Player.

"The more I attack the luckier I get".

There seems to be a fear of going for it in a lot of races. What's the worst that can happen? Shelled out the back cos you're shattered? Still a good workout. Also though it's hard it's great fun. Most fun I had in a race was last Saturday being in a break for 5 laps with a few of the lads from here.

Must resurrect MoranA post Re A3 and A4 racing to hear what he thinks a month later.

Raam

shaungil wrote: »

Most fun I had in a race was last Saturday being in a break for 5 laps with a few of the lads from here.

Is that what you call it?

dare2be

kennyb3 wrote: »

Depends if they want to be able to make a break or not. A4 is boring enough at times from what i ve seen and read with wanting to sit in the bunch for the whole year.

Personally i plan on trying to get a few points if possible later in the season on the hillier courses. May be ambitious but you ve got to have goals

I hear what you are saying Kenny. I would want to compete also, why bother entering races otherwise. Altough tactics and knowing when to make a move would be where a more experienced rider would have the advantage.

Anyways, i joined a club and will enter their races to get a feel for the thing and take it from there.

Lumen

kennyb3 wrote: »

Depends if they want to be able to make a break or not. A4 is boring enough at times from what i ve seen and read with wanting to sit in the bunch for the whole year.

Indeed.

However, the effort varies massively between (a) different races (b) the front and the back of the same race.

I saw some stats (not my own) from the hilly Des Hanlon A3 which indicated 5.3W/kg for 10 minutes up the main climb. That's the sort of effort which would get you 800m off the front of a flat race on your own.

petethedrummer

shaungil wrote: »

"The more I attack the luckier I get".

She misquoted him: "The more I practice the luckier I get"

I believe he was a fairly conservative golfer. Arnold Palmer was the risk taker in those days.

shaungil

petethedrummer wrote: »

She misquoted him: "The more I practice the luckier I get"

I believe he was a fairly conservative golfer. Arnold Palmer was the risk taker in those days.

I knew his quote I thought she was paraphrasing. But is paraphrasing the correct term to use when you steal a quote and change it slightly?

His quote also aplies to cycling though.:)

Lumen

shaungil wrote: »

But is paraphrasing the correct term to use when you steal a quote and change it slightly?

No, that's misquoting.

fireblade001

Reading between the lines here you seem to be asking are you doing enough, having I been doing enough and what can I expect speed wise from an A4 race. You may have raced on Sunday but were dropped and want to know what the gap in speed and quality is between you and being able to finish the race.

I would guess that most guys have been doing weekend rides of 2hrs on a Sat and 2½ - 4hrs on a Sunday with two or three session during the week (either gym, spinning, turbo session or road session).

As a rough target an A4 would need to be able to cover 40miles in aprprox. 2:30hrs, with a couple of hills/drags or 55miles in approx. 3:30hrs.
To complete and compete in an open road race, even A4, you need to be able to react and recover from intense efforts, and so you need to incorporate this into your training spins.

Allot depends on your current fitness, how many years cycling you’ve got in your legs and background.
I’ve purposely not include Zones or HR % as you’ve not mentioned that in your question.

I’d suggest going forward you built a training program roughly around something like this:
Mon Rest
Tues 1-1½ hrs with a couple efforts riding at 53x15/16.
OR a Club race or Club TT.
Wed Rest
Thurs 1-1½ hrs riding steady again with a few “hard efforts”
Fri Rest
Sat 2hrs
Sun 2-3hrs or A4 Race

shaungil

Yeah but I guess she knew she was misquoting him to her advantage.

what is it called when you always take something off topic though.....

dare2be

fireblade001 wrote: »

Reading between the lines here you seem to be asking are you doing enough, having I been doing enough and what can I expect speed wise from an A4 race. You may have raced on Sunday but were dropped and want to know what the gap in speed and quality is between you and being able to finish the race.

I would guess that most guys have been doing weekend rides of 2hrs on a Sat and 2½ - 4hrs on a Sunday with two or three session during the week (either gym, spinning, turbo session or road session).

As a rough target an A4 would need to be able to cover 40miles in aprprox. 2:30hrs, with a couple of hills/drags or 55miles in approx. 3:30hrs.
To complete and compete in an open road race, even A4, you need to be able to react and recover from intense efforts, and so you need to incorporate this into your training spins.

Allot depends on your current fitness, how many years cycling you’ve got in your legs and background.
I’ve purposely not include Zones or HR % as you’ve not mentioned that in your question.

I’d suggest going forward you built a training program roughly around something like this:
Mon Rest
Tues 1-1½ hrs with a couple efforts riding at 53x15/16.
OR a Club race or Club TT.
Wed Rest
Thurs 1-1½ hrs riding steady again with a few “hard efforts”
Fri Rest
Sat 2hrs
Sun 2-3hrs or A4 Race

Now we are talkin...

In relation to your 'rough target', i covered 101.8km in 3hrs 30 on Sunday which included a few drags and 1 hill (not sure of gradient but i could look at the Garmin profile i suppose). So, i would be comfortable in a bunch of A4 riders.

I started cycling this time last year after doing a duathlon so not much cycle time in the legs but my fitness would be good at present. Could i ask (excuse the ignorance here) what is the tuesday session 53x15/16. Gearing??

Thanks for the rough plan

Beasty

shaungil wrote: »

what is it called when you always take something off topic though.....

.... "banhammer time";)

chakattack

Last year I found regular commuting and training for sportives and riding them flat out at the weekends stood to me well when I finally took up league racing.

6 hours in the saddle trying to maintain a decent pace on your own and suffering in the wind, rain and hills is much better training than a relatively sedate 3-4 hr club spin where you're sheltered for alot of it and climbing at a moderate group pace.

Training has been more structured this year but I'm not sure if it's better.

kennyb3

chakattack wrote: »

Last year I found regular commuting and training for sportives and riding them flat out at the weekends stood to me well when I finally took up league racing.

6 hours in the saddle trying to maintain a decent pace on your own and suffering in the wind, rain and hills is much better training than a relatively sedate 3-4 hr club spin where you're sheltered for alot of it and climbing at a moderate group pace.

Training has been more structured this year but I'm not sure if it's better.

I agree with this too i've found long spins on my own this year have made me alot stronger than sitting in a bunch club spin and only getting to take 2 to 4 decent turns over 70/80km. You get use to the wind and bit more suffering, and build good endurance. Although most a4 races are short enough.

But i still try to make it out with the group every 2nd weekend for the changes in pace at the end, picking up tips off older members and of course the social aspect of it.

For me though hill repeats are your only man once you ve a decent base, you learn to suffer and get a great workout.

Raam

kennyb3 wrote: »

... only getting to take 2 to 4 decent turns over 70/80km. You get use to the wind and bit more suffering, and build good endurance

What size group do you go out with?

fireblade001

dare2be wrote: »

Now we are talkin...

I started cycling this time last year after doing a duathlon so not much cycle time in the legs but my fitness would be good at present. Could i ask (excuse the ignorance here) what is the tuesday session 53x15/16. Gearing??

Thanks for the rough plan

OK, it seems like you have a good base to build on and you sound pretty strong if you can cover 100km in 3:30hrs, inlcuding a couple drag/hills.

53x15/16 is gearing yes, 53 on the front (you may have a 50 if it's a compact) and 15 or 16 on the back. If you have a 10 speed setup it'll probably be the 4th from last sprocket.

At a guess I expect you'd need to work on your able to recover from multiple hard efforts, this is best accomplished by doing Club races and/or club spins. Or if this is not available try "lashing" up 200/300m hills as thou you were attacking.

El Director

Great thread guys. Makes for interesting reading. After doing my first A4 on Sunday I really am itching for more. It didn't end well for me, I made mistakes but isn't that the fun of it. I will take what I have learned and come back stronger I''m sure.

For me a typical week is:

Mon: Turbo - either intervals/cadence work or FTP work

Weds: Same as above but soon to change with the start of the club league

Sat: 60-100k, easy enough up to two weeks ago, now including hill reps and lots of them.

I do well to fit in even that amount as I have swimming and running to fit in too!

kennyb3

Raam wrote: »

What size group do you go out with?

Last few times its been up to 15-20, its swords half 8. I try get as many turns in and hog the front when im out but in saying that I havent been out many times this year though as i ve been doing my own thing abit more lately and when i have gone down i ve noticed the big improvements.

I should prob qualify some of that though - i only cycled a few thousand km the last couple of summers while injured from running so in cycling terms i ve done feck all really and this year is my first year doing it pre june (as i ve ditched running to focus on cycling) so its obvious i ll see big improvements

Hungrycol

5dollakarl wrote: »

Lance Armstrong always won races by racing into the wind and not drafting behind any other guys - cos they were all slow and he raced off the front and won 7 tours de france in case you didnt know. He is the greatest cyclist of all time (possible greatest sportsman and ambassador) so how come he doesnt need to?

Brilliant!

Question.
How would the grouping in the Swords leagues translate to open race groups, roughly?

E.g.
Group 3 - A4
Group 4 - A3
Scratch - A1&2?

Beasty

Hungrycol wrote: »

Question.
How would the grouping in the Swords leagues translate to open race groups, roughly?

E.g.
Group 3 - A4
Group 4 - A3
Scratch - A1&2?

A lot of the guys who were racing A4 last year have moved up to A3 this year - they are typcally in semi-scratch in the Swords League. Scratch riders in the Swords League are typically in A2, with the odd one in A1

Quite a few new riders appear to have taken up A4 this year, and they have typically come from the guys who were in the middle Swords Group last year, with one or two from semi-limit

kennyb3

Hungrycol wrote: »

Brilliant!

Question.
How would the grouping in the Swords leagues translate to open race groups, roughly?

E.g.
Group 3 - A4
Group 4 - A3
Scratch - A1&2?

well i was in group 1 for 3 races last year but will be in group 2 this year and found a4 fine in my one race. My aim is to be okay in group 3 by the end of summer. Again might be another pie in the sky aim, we ll see. So i would say more

group 2 - A4
group 3 - stronger A4's and A3's
group 4 - ask someone more in the know

Of course it can change from week to week.

dare2be

Apart from fireblade's worthwhile contribution has anybody else any tips/plans for training?

Should i have a go at my own and see how i fare throughout the league and whatever races i enter? Thing is,i'm not totally up with all of the cycling jargon yet and whilst i have a good bit of kit, things like power outputs etc are for the meantime non-existent (apart from on the turbo trainer) which i'm still on in the evenings.

I know where Kennyb3 is coming from Re the plans as per the ART forum but it seems cyclists just do their own thing so to speak

kennyb3

dare2be wrote: »

Apart from fireblade's worthwhile contribution has anybody else any tips/plans for training?

Should i have a go at my own and see how i fare throughout the league and whatever races i enter? Thing is,i'm not totally up with all of the cycling jargon yet and whilst i have a good bit of kit, things like power outputs etc are for the meantime non-existent (apart from on the turbo trainer) which i'm still on in the evenings.

I know where Kennyb3 is coming from Re the plans as per the ART forum but it seems cyclists just do their own thing so to speak

Re plans - have a look at joe friels book. they are out there. I was more talking about the logs and the silence over training in cycling in general - ask lads what they ve been doing the last month everyone will start making excuses. As i ve barely done a thing... hurt my knee... blah blah

Re racing - as was said somewhere up above the only training for racing is racing. You could spend all summer biuling up your speeds, number of reps on a hill and so on but dont put it off just give it a go.

whats the worst that can happen? you get dropped! so what? everyone gets dropped at some stage once you know that you ll be grand.

You seem to have a good base and id be at a very similar level based on your numbers for that long spin. So join a club and hop into races if you havent already.

Have you rode much in group?

dare2be

kennyb3 wrote: »

havent already.

Have you rode much in group?

No.

Last year i done an 80km sportive. Was going great until we came to the 1st hill and i spent the rest of the 70km on my own. Wasn't last at the finish line but there wasn't too many behind me either.

I was absolutely shattered after an very demanding hilly route and swore i would never end up like that again.

Nevertheless i did enjoy it but the closest i got to the group was when they stopped for a break, even then they didn't hang about.

My 1st club league race will be next week so i'm looking forward to it.

tawfeeredux

dare2be wrote: »

Apart from fireblade's worthwhile contribution has anybody else any tips/plans for training?

kennyb3 wrote: »

Re plans - have a look at joe friels book. they are out there. I was more talking about the logs and the silence over training in cycling in general - ask lads what they ve been doing the last month everyone will start making excuses. As i ve barely done a thing... hurt my knee... blah blah...

I started a training log last year (trying to follow Joe Friel's plan as much as possible), but haven't updated it in a while. That's more cos I was trying to find a format for recording all the info I wanted that I was happy with before adding it to the log. Still messing with it, but if I get time this evening, i'll put something up on the log here so's ye can have a look. There may also be a list of excuses to account for the numerous gaps in the training:P.

kennyb3

dare2be wrote: »

My 1st club league race will be next week so i'm looking forward to it.

Swords or who?

I was going to do say do some league races before A4 but looks like you are already. You ll be grand, just enjoy them and learn from your mistakes.

Re the sportif - im sure if you can do 100km @ 29km/ph now you ve come a long way so dont fret.

Gavin

All off topic posts have been removed as per el charter.

shaungil

Beasty wrote: »

A lot of the guys who were racing A4 last year have moved up to A3 this year - they are typcally in semi-scratch in the Swords League. Scratch riders in the Swords League are typically in A2, with the odd one in A1

Quite a few new riders appear to have taken up A4 this year, and they have typically come from the guys who were in the middle Swords Group last year, with one or two from semi-limit

There are more A1 riders in scratch than you'd think unfortuantely. I tried a few races in scratch last year and they were phenomonally hard with A2 riders being shelled. Depends on a week to week basis.

Raam

I'll be giving scratch a go this year if I can.

dare2be

dare2be wrote: »

No.

Last year i done an 80km sportive. Was going great until we came to the 1st hill and i spent the rest of the 70km on my own. Wasn't last at the finish line but there wasn't too many behind me either.

I was absolutely shattered after an very demanding hilly route and swore i would never end up like that again.

Nevertheless i did enjoy it but the closest i got to the group was when they stopped for a break, even then they didn't hang about.

My 1st club league race will be next week so i'm looking forward to it.

Garmin link for this sufferfest last year

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/47729617

AstraMonti

Can I ask something (potentially stupid)? On the shortest A4-club races, do you guys eat at all on the bike? I mean i am trying to do some high intensity short spins (around an hour) and after the fist 15-20k I am starving to death even if I had lunch an hour ago.

Diarmuid

AstraMonti wrote: »

Can I ask something (potentially stupid)? On the shortest A4-club races, do you guys eat at all on the bike? I mean i am trying to do some high intensity short spins (around an hour) and after the fist 15-20k I am starving to death even if I had lunch an hour ago.

You do high intensity training 1hr after eating lunch?!! And you're hungry? :eek:

kennyb3

AstraMonti wrote: »

Can I ask something (potentially stupid)? On the shortest A4-club races, do you guys eat at all on the bike? I mean i am trying to do some high intensity short spins (around an hour) and after the fist 15-20k I am starving to death even if I had lunch an hour ago.

I hope your not doing the full hour intense? And when doing shorter spins like that id eat a couple of hours before.

Btw dude your one of the guys im looking at who should be racing. just bite the bullet and do it. Dont waste time being over prepared.

dare2be

Sunday in Drogheda may be a good place to start

mumfordandsons

thanks for all info lads, just wanted to compare to my own. more hills and long spins are needed for .