Garda Siochana in Shell to sea sex shocker

Buceph

k_mac wrote: »

6.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to use or engage in any threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace may be occasioned.

So why did you try and mislead people into thinking that it's an offense to simply use insulting words or abusive words? Why did you selectively quote the act?

And you ignored my "Are you a guard?" question. Although I could make a guess at an answer.

Kewreeuss

Wow! So many perfect people living in a perfect world, everthing laid out in black and white for them. It makes life so simple doesn't it, no one offends anybody, everyone is respected equally. Each person is exactly like the next and we all sing off the same hymnsheet. And we all agree exactly with each other. All is peace and love.

mikom

Bosco boy wrote: »

So if they said it while off duty it would be fine with you! Your moral compass is working well!

Read the post again, and don't stand in judgement over me.
Off duty it's up to themselves what they want to do moral or immoral, legal or illegal.
They spin the wheel, they take their chance............ in civvie uniform of course (plainclothes accepted).

smeedyova

These men who think that they can threaten women with rape should be fired immediately. It doesn't matter if they said these violent things directly to their victims or not --- what matters is that they are so intellectually and morally underdeveloped that they should not have any position of authority. They think that the idea threatening a woman with rape is funny --- would you like to have to report an actual rape to these idiots? Does anybody know what the requirements are for entry into Garda training? From this conversation it seems that the ability to breath is enough. As for the senior guard --- how unprofessional is he? The fact that all of them use language that is unconducive to professional discourse is also very telling --- swearing while at work is unprofessional and is not tolerated in other countries. Their level of communication never rises above "uneducated", at best. Talk about backward.

_DMac_

smeedyova wrote: »

These men who think that they can threaten women with rape should be fired immediately. It doesn't matter if they said these violent things directly to their victims or not --- what matters is that they are so intellectually and morally underdeveloped that they should not have any position of authority. They think that the idea threatening a woman with rape is funny --- would you like to have to report an actual rape to these idiots? Does anybody know what the requirements are for entry into Garda training? From this conversation it seems that the ability to breath is enough. As for the senior guard --- how unprofessional is he? The fact that all of them use language that is unconducive to professional discourse is also very telling --- swearing while at work is unprofessional and is not tolerated in other countries. Their level of communication never rises above "uneducated", at best. Talk about backward.

FAIL

this thread has now gone into actual hippy town so i am off. toodles

MagicSean

Buceph wrote: »

So why did you try and mislead people into thinking that it's an offense to simply use insulting words or abusive words? Why did you selectively quote the act?

And you ignored my "Are you a guard?" question. Although I could make a guess at an answer.

What other effect would you intend hurling abuse at someone you don't know to have other than a breach of the peace?

K-9

Buceph wrote: »

Are you a guard?

Because you are either ignorant of the Act or deliberately misinterpreting it to push a perceived authority. And a guard should be better than that. Could you quote the full sentence relating to the offence in Section 6? Rather than misleading people.







I don't think the problem is that they joked about rape. People do joke about rape. If it isn't hilariously funny it comes across in bad taste (and I do accept humour is subjective.)

The problem is that they joked about abusing their position of power. A large proportion of people who have been raped say it wasn't the actual sexual act that effected and continues to effect them. They say it was submissive aspect of being raped. The loss of control, and the rapist inflicting their will on them.

Similarly, it is widely held that rape isn't completely about a sexual act, it defines it, but in a lot of cases it isn't the motivation or the mens rea. The act is actually about dominance. And inflicting your will on someone, making them helpless.

That's what makes what the guards said so bad. They were joking about their dominance over a group of women referencing quite a heinous act. A group of women that they hold a position of power over. That they'd use their dominance to "shame" the women is disgusting.

Context is vital. Some still think they said it to the woman directly, in that context it's wrong and sackable.

In this context they were joking about charging her for not giving her name and deporting her, it's a "jokey" reference to throwing the book at her, nothing else. Do you actually think they meant that they'd threaten her directly with rape?

gosuckonalemon

Does anyone have any pictures of the women? The cops mentioned one lived down at the "krusty camp" so I'm not expecting much.

Bosco boy

mikom wrote: »

Read the post again, and don't stand in judgement over me.
Off duty it's up to themselves what they want to do moral or immoral, legal or illegal.
They spin the wheel, they take their chance............ in civvie uniform of course (plainclothes accepted).

so it is ok off duty, thanks for clearing that up, I'm just standing alongside you in judgement!

Ozzie

NOBODY WAS THREATENED!
NOBODY!

It was stupid and immature, but directed at NOBODY!

mikom

Bosco boy wrote: »

so it is ok off duty, thanks for clearing that up, I'm just standing alongside you in judgement!

They spin the wheel, they take their chance.
No judgement.

vinchick

The problem with this is how comments like this ripple and have knock on effects.

There is already a huge problem with the under reporting of rapes and one for he main reasons for this is that victims do not think that they will be taken seriously by the Gardai.This type of "banter" will only serve to re-enforce this idea and lead to victims of sexual violence continuing to keep the offence a secret.

So much work has been done to try and turn this around but throwaway stupid comments like this will undermine all of this and increase the worries of revictimisation amoung victims.

Kewreeuss

The fact that all of them use language that is unconducive to professional discourse is also very telling --- swearing while at work is unprofessional and is not tolerated in other countries. Their level of communication never rises above "uneducated", at best.

Oh dear, practically every workplace in the country would close down!

KittyeeTrix

opcowner2007 wrote: »

i never said i was angry at all i''m just saying ye are making an awful big deal out of what was obviously a joke. it wasn't a very good one but at the same time if gardai had to sit in the car or office all day and not have abit of a laugh amounst themselves than i can assure you this would be one horrible country to live in.

if this had not been recorded, it would never have been released, no one would care about it, no harm would have come to anyone and the guards would have had a laugh for 5 mins.

its a joke amongst 2 people. it just so happens that the 2 people were gardai. no difference from any other walk of life making the same joke. (unless they are actual rapists)

I don't think anyone would have any problems with 2 guards in a garda car sharing a joke but they joked about raping a woman!!!!

For crying out loud, why is this such a difficult concept for some people to grasp.............They are the 1st line of call for victims of rape and they were recorded making a JOKE ABOUT RAPE!!!:eek:

I know they were only joking and weren't actually going to rape the woman but it was extremely unprofessional and whilst I don't believe they should be sacked, flogged, shamed in the national media or lose their partners for it, I do believe they should be severly reprimanded and acknowledge that they acted inappropriately...

As for this joking to lighten a "horrific work environment", they were taking a woman down from a tractor, christ sake, she wasn't a drugged crazed axe wielding maniac...........

vinchick

Kewreeuss wrote: »

The fact that all of them use language that is unconducive to professional discourse is also very telling --- swearing while at work is unprofessional and is not tolerated in other countries. Their level of communication never rises above "uneducated", at best.

Oh dear, practically every workplace in the country would close down!

This isn't just any work place. This is the police, who are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in the State. It's not funny and it will only serve to undermine the confidence of service users in that vital service.

fedor.2.

I blame the camcorder for all of this

gosuckonalemon

vinchick wrote: »

The problem with this is how comments like this ripple and have knock on effects.

There is already a huge problem with the under reporting of rapes and one for he main reasons for this is that victims do not think that they will be taken seriously by the Gardai.This type of "banter" will only serve to re-enforce this idea and lead to victims of sexual violence continuing to keep the offence a secret.

So much work has been done to try and turn this around but throwaway stupid comments like this will undermine all of this and increase the worries of revictimisation amoung victims.

How would such banter have any impact on reporting of rapes?

One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

fedor.2.

vinchick wrote: »

This isn't just any work place. This is the police, who are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in the State. It's not funny and it will only serve to undermine the confidence of service users in that vital service.

No it wont

Dodge

k_mac wrote: »

What other effect would you intend hurling abuse at someone you don't know to have other than a breach of the peace?

To let off steam in a jokey way?

Dodge

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

Any stats for this makey up BS?

If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

Simple as that so

Micky Dolenz

Dodge wrote: »

To let off steam in a jokey way?

Maybe they should take up tennis if they feel a need to let off steam.

gosuckonalemon

If Gardai are not allowed make jokes about rape as they are the people dealing with such cases should that mean it is completely unacceptable for them to make jokes about:
murder,
speeding,
drug dealers etc.?

Bosco boy

mikom wrote: »

They spin the wheel, they take their chance.
No judgement.

What are ya on about?

fedor.2.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Maybe they should take up tennis if they feel a need to let off steam.

Why are you so anti-gardai? would they not let you join??

4zn76tysfajdxp

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Maybe they should take up tennis if they feel a need to let off steam.

What if they don't like tennis?

Dymo

I bet those gardai are thanking there lucky stars that they didin't say anything about there superiors, the whole conversation justs gives us an insight into how the garda puts in his day. The comment was uncalled for but they didn't think the whole country would have access to it.

Also I love how ironically they talk about how they were trained becoming gardai and how they were taught to do things properly.

Was the camera in a bag that they brought around with them, it was with them when they were having dinner.

Micky Dolenz

Kameron Bumpy Jail wrote: »

What if they don't like tennis?

Squash or badminton, who doesn't like a game of badminton?

KittyeeTrix

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

How would such banter have any impact on reporting of rapes?

One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

I know god forbid if anything ever happened to me I'd certainly wouldn't like to think that the same guard that I'm pouring my heart out to over a rape crime could then head off to his mates in the canteen and be able to laugh or joke about the issue of rape.................
I suppose it would not make me as confident that they would be totally in tune with the horrific experience of rape that they could joke about it...

I just think it's seriously dodgy that a guard could joke about this type of thing!

Oi vey.

Is this what we've come down to? Gardai joking privately amongst themselves now being shown everywhere. Is there genuinely no privacy anymore?

mikom

Kameron Bumpy Jail wrote: »

What if they don't like tennis?

New balls please.

Frank Black

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

If Gardai are not allowed make jokes about rape as they are the people dealing with such cases should that mean it is completely unacceptable for them to make jokes about:
murder,
speeding,
drug dealers etc.?

You think Speeding Jokes are the same as Rape Jokes?

Micky Dolenz

fedor.2. wrote: »

Why are you so anti-gardai? would they not let you join??

Not anti Gardai, just anti this Garda.

I have never applied to become a member.

Buceph

k_mac wrote: »

What other effect would you intend hurling abuse at someone you don't know to have other than a breach of the peace?

To answer your question? Someone asked;

whiteonion wrote: »

I was not aware it's illegal to make jokes against the gardai. Can you please show me any evidence that it's in fact an arrestable offence?

You directly responded to that question by saying;

k_mac wrote: »

Section 6 of the Public Order Act makes it an offence to use threatening abusive or insulting words or behaviour ina public place.

You tried to give them impression that a "joke" is "threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behavior." And you left out the part that there must be intent to breach the peace, or failure to give consideration as to whether a breach of the peace would occur, which of course is not something that happens with jokes, as you've indicated by your afforementioned views on the nature of humour. That's lying through ommission.

Now you're implying that someone asking about joking, was in fact asking about "hurling abuse." You're fabricating things, which is a lie.

You've lied on two occasions in the immediate situation. Is it a habit of yours to lie?

whiteonion

whiteonion wrote: »

They behaved unprofessionally, they should be fired.
I would be fired if I said the same things at my work, if there is no leniency for me if I screw up there should be no leniency for them either.

FIRE THEM, put their faces out in the national newspaper so that everyone can see what kind of pigs they are.

Whiteonion,

If they had said this directly to the Women then it would have been completely unacceptable and even a different context. They were eejits just joking, not knowingly being taped and got caught with their kn*bs hanging out.

If private conversations were recorded in the workplace then there would be a lot of people fired from their jobs if that's the case.

MagicSean

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

How would such banter have any impact on reporting of rapes?

One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

I think the publication of that tape will have a bas effect on the number of people reporting rape. You can't apply ordinary logic to the actions of a victim of rape. The experience is practically unparalelled. If these protesters really had a problem with the incident they would have reported the matter to the Ombudsman and the Gardas superiors. Instead they published it in an effort to further their own stupid cause.

Dodge wrote: »

To let off steam in a jokey way?

You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

IQDENIED

k_mac wrote: »

And I bet you think Atari Jaguar is a computer. The meaning of words change faster than the dictionary is updated. I suggest you watch the South Park epsiode about the word "fag".

You need to go back to school as well by the look of things...

You are using slang... big difference... slang can be accepted into dictionary by widespread use, still it doesn't mean old meanings are disregarded.
E.G. What else would I call an embankment constructed to prevent flooding other than a dyke?

The context of the recorded conversation cannot be fobbed off in anyway or form, i.e. the unconsentual sex with the detainee, wether it was a joke or not is open for discussion, also if it was appropriate behaviour or otherwise that is another debate, don't try tell us up is down and vice versa! Muppet! :pac:

vinchick

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

How would such banter have any impact on reporting of rapes?

One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

Not true, you obviously are not familiar with the work that has been done on attrition rates in rape and sexual violence cases.

This type of "banter" re-enforces the idea that the Gardai will not take a reported offence seriously which is one of the main reasons why people do not report.This has been show time and time again in Victim surveys and interviews.

That too drunk to remember theme is not prevalent in the research.

It is not just a case of not being happy with the "cop" and asking for another one. Rape investigations involve an intimate exam often internal and questioning. If victims are treated badly this can lead to extra trauma and victimisation. It is not as easy as going, ah I don't like X so I want to deal with Y. The damage has already been done.

Check out the SAVI report for an Irish perspective, or the British Crime Survey which has a really good breakdown of reasons for non reporting.

MagicSean

Buceph wrote: »

To answer your question? Someone asked;



You directly responded to that question by saying;



You tried to give them impression that a "joke" is "threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behavior." And you left out the part that there must be intent to breach the peace, or failure to give consideration as to whether a breach of the peace would occur, which of course is not something that happens with jokes, as you've indicated by your afforementioned views on the nature of humour. That's lying through ommission.

Now you're implying that someone asking about joking, was in fact asking about "hurling abuse." You're fabricating things, which is a lie.

You've lied on two occasions in the immediate situation. Is it a habit of yours to lie?

Actually the original post which you replied to was in relation to people being arrested on the street for insulting Gardaí in front of a crowd if I remember correctly.


EDIT: This one

My name is URL wrote: »

I've seen people being bundled into the back of cars for harmlessly taking the piss of them on nights out.

stee.mc79

mikom wrote: »

New balls please.

You can't be serious that ball was clearly in!

k_mac

k_mac wrote: »

You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

Thing is that the Gardai didn't go up to the women and say, "I'll rape you" so that argument isn't necessarily the same

gosuckonalemon

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

I know god forbid if anything ever happened to me I'd certainly wouldn't like to think that the same guard that I'm pouring my heart out to over a rape crime could then head off to his mates in the canteen and be able to laugh or joke about the issue of rape.................
I suppose it would not make me as confident that they would be totally in tune with the horrific experience of rape that they could joke about it...

I just think it's seriously dodgy that a guard could joke about this type of thing!

As long as the garda acted professionally in dealing with the case and was successful what should it matter what he talks about to his mates in the canteen?
You can't expect the Garda to become emotionally affected by a rape case he is dealing with. If he did then that would be very unprofessional of him and could impact on the case. Moreso than telling jokes in private.

Duggy747

I'm seeing a turn here from reactions where people are painting the Gardaì as untrustworthy when needed to be turned to for rape victims. Purple monkey dishwasher rules show that this story is being picked up as far more mailicious than it actually is as it's being spread about this morning. People seeing the sensationalist headlines and forming an opinion immediately.

Wiping years of work trying to gain victim's confidence to report cases all because of a stupid joke in a private conversation which held zero malice towards anybody or the horror of rape, itself.

People acting like the Gardaì can't be trusted with rape cases has a far more dangerous ripple effect than a stupid joke.

I can't imagine Gardaì being emotionally involved in cases, they'd be personally destroyed and worn out from the things they'd have to deal with on an emotional level.

stee.mc79

k_mac wrote: »

You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

Gees theres no need to start getting personal!

Dodge

k_mac wrote: »

You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

No, I'd probably be pissed off. As I would if one of my work colleagues start joking about rape...

Plazaman

whiteonion wrote: »

They behaved unprofessionally, they should be fired.
I would be fired if I said the same things at my work, if there is no leniency for me if I screw up there should be no leniency for them either.

FIRE THEM, put their faces out in the national newspaper so that everyone can see what kind of pigs they are.

Yes and also fire every Guard that ever jokingly said "I'll murder him..." or "I'll kill him...." as that is equally insulting to murder victims and they'd never be fit to investigate a crime scene with that attitude

And also fire every Guard that uses foul language and curse words as what sort of moral example are they setting for our children and how are they supposed to respect authority figures who curse.

And also fire every Guard who uses the terms "Black, Brown, Yellow" as we are a multi-cultural society and should not be using racial terms even when not talking about other races.

And also fire every Guard who smirks, laughs or grins. It is a serious job being protector of the State, either they take it seriously or they don't.

And also fire every Guard who is out of uniform. The are sworn to uphold the law 24/7 and being disrespectful to the Irish people by making arrests off duty or out of uniform is disgraceful and disrespectful.

And also fire every Guard who is married or has a girlfriend/boyfriend. By having carnal relations as a sworn officer of the state is just a crass act of using their authority over a civilian and demeans the other party.

What else have I missed......

Buceph

K-9 wrote: »

Context is vital. Some still think they said it to the woman directly, in that context it's wrong and sackable.

Some do think that, they're wrong. I know it was said in private.

In this context they were joking about charging her for not giving her name and deporting her, it's a "jokey" reference to throwing the book at her, nothing else. Do you actually think they meant that they'd threaten her directly with rape?

No. I don't think they would threaten her with rape. What I have a problem with is their flippant attitude to their professionalism in that they were joking about their dominance over someone in submission and they're hypothetical ability to rape them. They did arrest them, they implied that they could charge them, that they could deport them, and that they could rape them. Even joking that you have the power to do these things and that you would consider them, even in jest is unnacceptable.

And like you said in the first quote, if they said that to the women they should be sacked. In this case, because it was a fairly disgusting betrayal of their professionalism (even in private) they should get a severe bollocking by whoevers in charge of their station. They should get another severe bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And they should be subject to a fairly frank discussion with someone from the Rape Crisis Centre.

But yes, I think a lot of people are overreacting in this thread. Just as a lot of people aren't taking it seriously.

MagicSean

Dodge wrote: »

No, I'd be pissed off. As I would if one of my work colleagues start joking about rape...

I think you've missed the point of my post. This was in relation to the breach of the peace section of the public order act.

vinchick

fedor.2. wrote: »

No it wont

Yes it will and has.

Take a look at any of the literature of non reporting of offences, not just those of a sexual nature.

Over and over again around research into non report of assaults, thefts etc. it all comes back to a few themes one of which is.....the police will not take me seriously and will not bother.

The Gardai are heard making little of offences this re-enforces this idea. Look at the literature, go on, I dare you.:p

4zn76tysfajdxp

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Squash or badminton, who doesn't like a game of badminton?

Rapists.

MagicSean

Buceph wrote: »

Some do think that, they're wrong. I know it was said in private.



No. I don't think they would threaten her with rape. What I have a problem with is their flippant attitude to their professionalism in that they were joking about their dominance over someone in submission and they're hypothetical ability to rape them. They did arrest them, they implied that they could charge them, that they could deport them, and that they could rape them. Even joking that you have the power to do these things and that you would consider them, even in jest is unnacceptable.

And like you said in the first quote, if they said that to the women they should be sacked. In this case, because it was a fairly disgusting betrayal of their professionalism (even in private) they should get a severe bollocking by whoevers in charge of their station. They should get another severe bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And they should be subject to a fairly frank discussion with someone from the Rape Crisis Centre.

But yes, I think a lot of people are overreacting in this thread. Just as a lot of people aren't taking it seriously.

Do you not think the joke was about the ridiculousness of the suggestion that this could be a punishment?