Minister to introduce new laws on clamping

squod

Irish Fire wrote: »

These clampers should be registered with the PSA and would be easy to do as the PSA exist already.......

The PSA aren't doing such a great job of the work they already have AFAIK. Let's just leave illegal clamping illegal and have the guards enforce the existing laws.

seadnamac

Here's my very recent and still on going experience with clampers....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056227962

This legislation sounds like it's going to change absolutely nothing. As someone already mentioned they will still be able to clamp you, refuse to release it without payment, you'll still have to pay and you'll still have to appeal. And 140euro is a ridiculous amount. It should be outlawed completely. This is just going to legitimise what they are already doing.

Lord Nikon

Anan1 wrote: »

You're kidding?? If you needed petrol and didn't have enough money would that give you a 'valid excuse' to just take it anyway? As with any other commodity, if you can't pay for it then you can't have it.

Let me clarify. If I hadnt enough change for the meter to pay the minimum amount. I usually park just off Parnell Street which is 2euro minimum. And if I'm going shopping and see a movie in the cinema I could be in town for a few hours, so I need plenty of change to cover me for a few hours.

I dont usually have bags of coins in my pockets to pay parking meters, and so if i need change i will buy something in Spar and ask for change in coins.

If i need diesel, I will pay with coins, paper money, or credit card. i dont leave home without my wallet. Satisfied yet?

-Chris-

-Chris- wrote: »

@everyone - can we please get back on topic and discuss the change in legislation rather than the moral ins and outs of clamping?

Seriously

Victor_M

My 0.02C

Clamping is a necessary evil, as given half a chance a large percentage of the population will park wherever the hell they want, so as some people have already mentioned if you park like an A$$hole you deserve to get clamped.

The issue I have with 'private' clampers is, and this is something that, unless you have experienced it firsthand you may not appreciate.

If you are parking in an area where there is sufficient parking provided and the clamping is enforced in a fair and equable manner, fair enough.

If you are parking in an area where there is a huge & illegal shortage of visitor parking spaces, as is the case of my estate (circa 120 too few) and the builder, who, through his 'golden' shares is the director of the mgt company has decided that clamping is the best way to enforce compliance even though he really is trying to bully the residents into the purchase of one of the 120 spare spaces @€;20K per space, then this is where I have a major issue with the private clampers.

I have no issue with this legislation, as it could potentially take the greyness out of the industry, only if done correctly, and there aren't too many encouraging examples of the public interest coming first in this country so I'm not holding out too much hope,

It will also have to ensure that the area that clamping is being introduced is fully compliant with all planning permission, and that the clamping isn't deemed to be extortionate or entrapment style. ie a fair number of visitor parking spaces provided, 1.3 spaces per unit built is the legal minimum requirement.

Also that clamping on behalf of residents, as was mentioned in an earlier example is, actually mandated by the residents and not a developer exercising his golden shares to overrule the actual residents themselves, again as is the case in our development.

Until this legislation is passed fairly, I'm keeping my DeWalt on full charge

Anan1

Presumably we're all in favour of regulation of private clamping, at least as an improvement on the current situation. In order to say more, we really need to know exactly what Varadker's proposing.

stevenmu

squod wrote: »

Let's just leave illegal clamping illegal and have the guards enforce the existing laws.

A large part of the problem is that what we see as illegal clamping isn't illegal at all, at least not specifically illegal anyway. As such, especially with it being so widespread, introducing legislation around it is probably a good idea. I'd prefer if it was just banned outright, but at least regulating how it is done will be a good step. Or it could be anyway, we'll have to wait and see what exact legislation is proposed and hope that it isn't totally watered down with no teeth.

jd

Victor_M wrote: »

Also that clamping on behalf of residents, as was mentioned in an earlier example is, actually mandated by the residents and not a developer exercising his golden shares to overrule the actual residents themselves, again as is the case in our development.

Just on that, the Multi Unit Developments act has been passed.
http://www.falcondale.com/Blog/Blog/tabid/105/EntryId/16/Multi-Unit-Act-2011.aspx

Victor_M

jd wrote: »

Just on that, the Multi Unit Developments act has been passed.
http://www.falcondale.com/Blog/Blog/tabid/105/EntryId/16/Multi-Unit-Act-2011.aspx

I know, I'm counting down the days to the next AGM, first order of business!

Unfortunately I suspect our cowboy will also be the first to stress test the MUD bill in court as he's ignored pretty much every thing he's been ordered to do by the council and courts to date!

branie

They should do what England has done and ban clamping

squod

branie wrote: »

They should do what England has done and ban clamping

It's already illegal. The status quo would do me.

dogowner

slavetothegrind wrote: »

cop on leo varadkar. if you want to dissuade illegal parking how hard is it to apply the fine to the vehicle via the licence plate number backed up with the photo evidence. link it to the tax so it has to be paid to renew the tax disc.
this crap of immobilisation and removal is rediculously expensive and unjust.

Nicely put. That's a very sensible idea.

Clamping is just like everything else that is unregulated here in Ireland... it's all about the money.

Make no mistake about it...

markpb

dogowner wrote: »

Nicely put. That's a very sensible idea.

Clamping is just like everything else that is unregulated here in Ireland... it's all about the money.

Make no mistake about it...

It's nicely put but completely wrong. Cities used parking fines before and gave them up because they weren't a strong deterrent and because they had to incur the costs of having a legal department (or outside company) to persue people through the courts if they didn't pay.

Fines also wouldn't work for private roads because only the courts system can fine people and, even if private land owners could fine, they'd need access to the NDVF which would be in breach of the data protection acts.

Anan1

markpb wrote: »

It's nicely put but completely wrong. Cities used parking fines before and gave them up because they weren't a strong deterrent and because they had to incur the costs of having a legal department (or outside company) to persue people through the courts if they didn't pay.

Fines also wouldn't work for private roads because only the courts system can fine people and, even if private land owners could fine, they'd need access to the NDVF which would be in breach of the data protection acts.

+1. The fact of the matter is, corpo clamping works. It's now easy to find on-street parking in the city centre, whereas before clamping it was almost impossible. Re clamping on private property, if you don't like the owner's rules then don't park there. We do, of course, need regulation to ensure that clamping is fair and that people have access to an independent appeals process.

Remember, clamping wouldn't exist if people didn't park like d1cks.

markpb

Anan1 wrote: »

We do, of course, need regulation to ensure that clamping is fair and that people have access to an independent appeals process.

Absolutely. As long as there is an independent regulator who could punish rogue clampers (both the people and the company) by fining them or removing their license, there's no reason why clamping couldn't be a perfectly normal way of enforcing parking regulations.

keithclancy

Anan1 wrote: »

+1. The fact of the matter is, corpo clamping works. It's now easy to find on-street parking in the city centre, whereas before clamping it was almost impossible. Re clamping on private property, if you don't like the owner's rules then don't park there. We do, of course, need regulation to ensure that clamping is fair and that people have access to an independent appeals process.

Remember, clamping wouldn't exist if people didn't park like d1cks.

I completely agree with you, the problem is that with Clamping is:

1. The goalposts keep moving, there are no definitions of what is allowed and what is not in the Private Car parks.

2. You have to pay and appeal after the fact because your car is immobilised.

They've aleady banned 'the boot' in most cities in Holland because it is a stupid idea to immobilse a vehicle that is stationary somewhere it is not supposed to be, just put a ticket on it and send the fine.

Whats next ?
Clamping because your not displaying a valid insurance disc ?

Clamping is akin to a restaurant owner handcuffing you to a rad because you haven't paid the bill.

Anan1

keithclancy wrote: »

I completely agree with you, the problem is that with Clamping is:

keithclancy wrote: »

1. The goalposts keep moving, there are no definitions of what is allowed and what is not in the Private Car parks.

Agreed, we need regulation to make sure people are quite clear on the rules in advance.

keithclancy wrote: »

2. You have to pay and appeal after the fact because your car is immobilised.

Maybe you could have an independent appeals board with a financial sanction against the clamper for upheld appeals?

keithclancy wrote: »

They've aleady banned 'the boot' in most cities in Holland because it is a stupid idea to immobilse a vehicle that is stationary somewhere it is not supposed to be, just put a ticket on it and send the fine.

People always say that, but a clamp is a much better deterrent than a ticket.

markpb

keithclancy wrote: »

They've aleady banned 'the boot' in most cities in Holland because it is a stupid idea to immobilse a vehicle that is stationary somewhere it is not supposed to be, just put a ticket on it and send the fine.

Perhaps they have a different legal system in Holland than we do in Ireland? It's entirely possibly that cities have greater ability to chase fines without resorting to court action.

In any case, introducing clamping went a long way towards improving parking habits in Dublin. Why would we go backwards when we have made improvements already? Should we make it more difficult and more expensive for cities to stop people parking like assholes?

keithclancy

markpb wrote: »

Perhaps they have a different legal system in Holland than we do in Ireland? It's entirely possibly that cities have greater ability to chase fines without resorting to court action.

In any case, introducing clamping went a long way towards improving parking habits in Dublin. Why would we go backwards when we have made improvements already? Should we make it more difficult and more expensive for cities to stop people parking like assholes?

If anything I would say the Irish are much more compliant when paying fines, the Dutch will fight tooth and nail to find any way out of paying.

In the Hague people were just calling a locksmith to remove 'the thing' stuck to their wheel. The Clamp ended up costing the Municipality 'more' in legal defence (everyone in Holland has legal insurance) and running costs than the fines coming in.

Fines generate more revenue, cost the taxpayer less to run and make people think twice about parking illegally.

Anan1

keithclancy wrote: »

Fines generate more revenue, cost the taxpayer less to run and make people think twice about parking illegally.

I won't argue the first two points, but clamping is definitely a better deterrent than ticketing.

Yawns

Tbh i think they should just leave it alone as it is now. Because otherwise when you start cutting private clamps off they may have a case against you in court. Atm they'll just send you a letter and you can ignore it or tell em you know nothing about it. They'll do their level best not to go to court atm

Anan1

Yawns wrote: »

Tbh i think they should just leave it alone as it is now. Because otherwise when you start cutting private clamps off they may have a case against you in court. Atm they'll just send you a letter and you can ignore it or tell em you know nothing about it. They'll do their level best not to go to court atm

So the current setup is better for the people being clamped but worse for the people they inconvenience?

Yawns

Clamping makes no sense. I'd actually prefer that if people couldn't park correctly or legally in a local authority parking area that the car be towed tbh. I don't get the idea that if you park blocking a loading bay they punish you by making sure the car stays there til someone comes to remove the clamp.

As someone pointed out it wouldn't be too hard to take down the reg and have it linked to motor tax. Car can't be taxed without fine being paid. If they refuse to tax the car and continue to drive then they run the risk of road side seizure and car being towed and possibly crushed etc for non compliance with road tax.

markpb

Yawns wrote: »

Clamping makes no sense. I'd actually prefer that if people couldn't park correctly or legally in a local authority parking area that the car be towed tbh. I don't get the idea that if you park blocking a loading bay they punish you by making sure the car stays there til someone comes to remove the clamp.

Clamping is just one of the options used in Dublin right now. DSPS regularly tow cars away for parking in clearways. Clamping is normally only used for people who have no parking ticket or an expired parking ticket.

As someone pointed out it wouldn't be too hard to take down the reg and have it linked to motor tax. Car can't be taxed without fine being paid. If they refuse to tax the car and continue to drive then they run the risk of road side seizure and car being towed and possibly crushed etc for non compliance with road tax.

Why bother? Clamping is quick and easy, provides immediate feedback to the offender that they have misbehaved and it puts the onus on them to pay the fine if they want their car back.

Yawns

Why bother? Clamping is quick and easy, provides immediate feedback to the offender that they have misbehaved and it puts the onus on them to pay the fine if they want their car back.

And in the meantime that clearway or loading bay still stays blocked unitl person arrives. Makes phone call. Waits for clampers to come and remove clamp.

Now I have never been clamped by a local authority so I can't comment on how efficient they are at removing clamps. I was clamped once by a private clamper and clamped wrongly. So if we legalise these guys I would prob have had to pay that cowboy and then waited for a refund. Or my way which is to buy a grinder and be prepared to use it.

Also would it not be cheaper to use a traffic warden to issue a fine that's linked to moter tax database than pay clampers to patrol around? Meh too much to ask in Ireland for an effect service tho.

With regards to the fine system someone proposed the person will be punished because the guards do checkpoints etc and they do take cars with tax that is expired for 2 months or more. Imo it would be far more effective than clamps which keep the the offending car in the same place.

markpb

Yawns wrote: »

And in the meantime that clearway or loading bay still stays blocked unitl person arrives. Makes phone call. Waits for clampers to come and remove clamp.

If you read my post, you'll see where I said that DSPS don't clamp in clearways, they tow away. I'm not sure what they do in loading bays.

So if we legalise these guys I would prob have had to pay that cowboy and then waited for a refund. Or my way which is to buy a grinder and be prepared to use it.

Except that if they were licensed and regulated, the cowboys would be removed from the market.

Anan1

Yawns wrote: »

With regards to the fine system someone proposed the person will be punished because the guards do checkpoints etc and they do take cars with tax that is expired for 2 months or more. Imo it would be far more effective than clamps which keep the the offending car in the same place.

Anyone who's been driving since its introduction knows clamping is a much more effective deterrent than ticketing.

Break all ties

Yawns wrote: »

Also would it not be cheaper to use a traffic warden to issue a fine that's linked to moter tax database than pay clampers to patrol around? Meh too much to ask in Ireland for an effect service tho.

With regards to the fine system someone proposed the person will be punished because the guards do checkpoints etc and they do take cars with tax that is expired for 2 months or more. Imo it would be far more effective than clamps which keep the the offending car in the same place.

How it works here is if I fail to pay any parking tickets the charges are added to my local car tax which I pay in March. If I fail to pay this tax I cannot get the car tested and I will be missing the test sticker from my window. The police will then take my car away.

Also I cannot sell my car if there are outstanding tickets against it.

Clamping was once tried and the councils lost more in destroyed clamps than they ever took in from fines. The mafia soon showed the councils who is really in charge.