The Corrib Tape

tom traubert

goldie fish wrote: »

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the gardai obtained evidence like this, would the recording be accepted as evidence?

Genuine question.

I dont believe there's a yes or no answer to the question.

Evidence obtained deliberately and consciously in breach of an individual's rights under the constitution will generally be inadmissable at a trial unless the trial Judge rules that there are extraordinary excusing circumstances.

It's probably an irrelevant question in the context of the thread but you could google yourself to death trying to answer it definitively.

jank

Eru wrote: »

just putting it out there but how would people feel if they turned on the news and saw themselves having a private conversation with a work colleague?

If I joked in work about raping a work collegue I would be out on my ear faster then you can say "Its only banter"

Tragedy

jank wrote: »

If I joked in work about raping a work collegue I would be out on my ear faster then you can say "Its only banter"

Only if someone who you told the joke to made a complaint.
If an employer started bugging your office without your consent or knowledge(even accidentally) and then used that against you, you would be looking at quite a large settlement figure after litigation.

Are you proposing we fire the guards in question but offer them six figure sums each?

Terrontress

Tragedy wrote: »

Only if someone who you told the joke to made a complaint.
If an employer started bugging your office without your consent or knowledge(even accidentally) and then used that against you, you would be looking at quite a large settlement figure after litigation.

Are you proposing we fire the guards in question but offer them six figure sums each?

Most modern offices are recorded by CCTV and there are signs stating such on the way in.

In a former place I worked I had to tell a courier company what the van which had picked up a package looked like. The head of security was able to punch in the time and date and hey presto, he could follow me walking from my desk to reception and meeting the courier, handing the package over and then follow the courier walking back to his van. This was all with sound.

Never presume in any office that you are not being recorded.

Tragedy

Terrontress wrote: »

Most modern offices are recorded by CCTV and there are signs stating such on the way in.

In a former place I worked I had to tell a courier company what the van which had picked up a package looked like. The head of security was able to punch in the time and date and hey presto, he could follow me walking from my desk to reception and meeting the courier, handing the package over and then follow the courier walking back to his van. This was all with sound.

Never presume in any office that you are not being recorded.

Fantastic, perhaps you missed the "without your consent or knowledge" part though.

Also, even with signs and acknowledging that you may be recorded in your workplace, companies must show that they had reason to monitor an employee and monitoring may only be done in accordance with the agreed upon rules and stipulations.

Example: if an employer states that they will use CCTV to prevent theft by employees - the CCTV can generally only be used to discipline an employee in the context of theft.

Another example: If employer states that they may monitor your calls, but also agrees that you may make personal calls - they cannot use anything they hear on the personal call to discipline you.

It doesn't matter if you're being recorded, it matters if you agree to be recorded.

Which is all beside the point.

Jicked

A better analogy might be two workers having what they thought was a private conversation in a bathroom, only for the boss to be overhearing everything in a cubicle. Again, good luck trying to play the "banter" card in that situation.

Worztron

Those cops in question are a disgrace. They should be severely punished.

Tragedy

Jicked wrote: »

A better analogy might be two workers having what they thought was a private conversation in a bathroom, only for the boss to be overhearing everything in a cubicle. Again, good luck trying to play the "banter" card in that situation.

A better analogy would be sales rep leaving a company dictaphone playing in the back of his company car, handing it back in unknowingly having recorded himself making a rape joke.

In that case, it's still fairly likely that it wouldn't be able to be used to officially discipline him as he had a reasonable expectation to privacy and private opinions in the company car (despite his own stupidity in leaving a piece of recording equipment running).

If something analogous to the corrib tape happened in the private sector, legally the most an employer could do is give the employee a verbal warning.
Coming from a family member with 20 years HRM/Industrial Relations experience in both public and private sector, so I'm going to go with that experience over the hordes of hysterical people screaming that if they weren't Guards they would have been fired instantly.

Worztron

Tragedy wrote: »

A better analogy would be sales rep leaving a company dictaphone playing in the back of his company car, handing it back in unknowingly having recorded himself making a rape joke.

In that case, it's still fairly likely that it wouldn't be able to be used to officially discipline him as he had a reasonable expectation to privacy and private opinions in the company car (despite his own stupidity in leaving a piece of recording equipment running).

If something analogous to the corrib tape happened in the private sector, legally the most an employer could do is give the employee a verbal warning.
Coming from a family member with 20 years HRM/Industrial Relations experience in both public and private sector, so I'm going to go with that experience over the hordes of hysterical people screaming that if they weren't Guards they would have been fired instantly.

A sales rep doesn't deal with rape victims as the Gardaí do. That makes this case particularly sensitive.

Spacedog

eroo wrote: »

Anyone who takes videos on youtube as evidence really shows themselves up. Indymedia and other rent-a-mob groups edit these videos to show peaceful flower child strolling along a road, then cut to him being arrested. They usually leave out the bit where he refused to get up off the middle of the road blocking traffic, after being told to move so as to prevent injury to himself and others.

Despite what those protesters may think, they are not above the law. Yes they have a right to protest, but that does not entitle them to do anything they please.

I agree that anyone who takes a single source as the truth, hasbn't a leg to stand on in a discussion. Indymedia/youtube is just another source from a single point of view. as is RTE, TV3, FOX news, al jazera, wikileaks, forum posts, blogs etc... it is only by comparing and contrasting the different reports of events can one try to come to an informed decision.

your idea of indymedia editing video to make it look like the flowerchildren getting arrested is an over simplification. some videos show gradai clearly going over the line an any context. To suggest that indymedia somehow fabricated this kind of footage is ridiculous. they would need the computer imaging technology of jurassic park and cinematoghraphy skills of Stanley Kubrick to fabricate such secenes.

The protesters may feel they are above the law (they risk their safety to block diggers etc.), but the Shell Oil Company ARE above the law and regualtory processes, they have been found bribing and influencing governments of other countries, and have been suspected of doing the same here. these suspicians have not been investigated by the gards. why? there is no evedence? with crimes like this there will be no evedence until you investigate records and paper trails, bank records etc.

You guys ever watch the HBO show The Wire? it seems to me the attitude of irish policing in general seems to be the 'western district way' - busting heads of the little guy, dope on the table, priorities change according to stats. Wouldn't you guys even be intrested in taking a moment to investigating this kind of corporate crime. walk up to a shell executive, or a corrupt politician, or a property developer, and hand them a summons. "Real po-loce"

Tragedy

Worztron wrote: »

A sales rep doesn't deal with rape victims as the Gardaí do. That makes this case particularly sensitive.

And? It doesn't change the legalities of it, despite the bleating that would have you believe otherwise.

MagicSean

Ive often seen edited videos on those sites. A while back there was a protest at baldonnell aerodrome. The first video they posted included an arrested protester being asked if the gardai beat him. He replied no. The video was taken down and uploaded minus the part in question. It had other little bits missing that showed the protesters in any kind of bad light.

Dermot Illogical

Worztron wrote: »

Those cops in question are a disgrace. They should be severely punished.

They're not. And they shouldn't.

Spacedog

that's what I'm saying, indymedia is just a source, biased in so far as it's made and in the editorial control of independent activists, often participants of a protest. take for example the footage of the love ulster riot in Dublin. Indymedia coverage showed the few gardai there doing an excellent job in breaking up a rabble of opportunist scumbags gone out of control.

stockyboie

goldie fish wrote: »

An awful lot of strangers have suddenly appeared in this section to criticise the Gardai......

i don't think people are critising the gardai. I think people recognise most of gardai do a good job under difficult circumstances and an anteqated court system, however this kind of behaviour needs to be stamped out. Simple as. There is no excuse for this at all.

Making jokes about rape is not funny in any context. Anyone who thinks making rape jokes is funny has mental health issues. Its especially not funny when police officers are making the joke private or not. Even a 10 year old could tell you that. You might as well laugh at the holocaust.

In fact them making it in private is even worse. Makes people wonder if this kind of behaviour is inherent in a little 'club' to which only serving officers are privy too. The fact that people on this forum are making excuses makes me wonder and im sure the general public wonder also if it is just isolated.

The time to worry about the direction of the society your living in is not that people are questioning the gardai about this incident the time to worry would be if people weren't questioning them.

K-9

stockyboie wrote: »

i don't think people are critising the gardai. I think people recognise most of gardai do a good job under difficult circumstances and an anteqated court system, however this kind of behaviour needs to be stamped out. Simple as. There is no excuse for this at all and anyone making excuses could be viewed as part of the problem.

Making jokes about rape is not funny in any context. Anyone who thinks making rape jokes is funny has mental health issues. Its especially not funny when police officers are making the joke private or not. Even a 10 year old could tell you that.

In fact them making it in private is even worse. Makes people wonder if this kind of behaviour is inherent in a little 'club' to which only serving officers are privy too. The fact that a people on this forum are making excuses makes me wonder and im sure the general public wonder also if it is just isolated. .

The joke is inappropriate and needs to be stamped out.

So does the insinuations the 2 women made, "I'm not getting in the car with them".

stockyboie

K-9 wrote: »

The joke is inappropriate and needs to be stamped out.

So does the insinuations the 2 women made, "I'm not getting in the car with them".

thanks for confirming my comments for me...nice work..:pac:

K-9

stockyboie wrote: »

thanks for confirming my comments for me...nice work..:pac:

I find it is better to elaborate on these things.

Why, am I confirming what seems to your biased comment?

Terrontress

K-9 wrote: »

The joke is inappropriate and needs to be stamped out.

So does the insinuations the 2 women made, "I'm not getting in the car with them".

Of course their "insinuations" are not inappropriate.

One of the roles of female police officers throughout Europe is to provide a level of comfort to female suspects, victims and witnesses.

If any female asks to be dealt with by a female Garda is that inappropriate due to insinuation?

Shield

Terrontress wrote: »

One of the roles of female police officers throughout Europe is to provide a level of comfort to female suspects, victims and witnesses.

How wrong you are with this statement.

Men and women receive the exact same training in police colleges. Specialist training is available to those who apply to those who work in specialist areas but only after probationary periods have passed, but these areas are in no way biased, tailored towards or in favour of female officers.

The roles of female and male officers in police forces is exactly the same.

MagicSean

Terrontress wrote: »

Of course their "insinuations" are not inappropriate.

One of the roles of female police officers throughout Europe is to provide a level of comfort to female suspects, victims and witnesses.

If any female asks to be dealt with by a female Garda is that inappropriate due to insinuation?

She wasn't a victim or witness. She had committed a crime. The woman made wild accusations for no other reason than to make trouble. The amount of defamatory and malicious complaints made against gardai everywhere, but especially in Mayo, is outrageous and never followed up on. You can't say it's alright for her to accuse him of being all but a rapist in front of everyone and then deny the Garda the right to make a joke about it to his mates while on his break.

I hope the Garda sues her for defamation and breach of privacy and I hope it's the first of many such lawsuits by gardai. Malicious complaints can have a very bad effect on a person and their career.

gbee

Agree with above post. The "rent a protester" crowd had used the rape cry for effect on many occasions.

In the context of this environment it's not nearly as strong an issue as the tape sounds in isolation.

Until the force moved to Tetra last year I used to monitor them, they are men and women and they do banter. With my own experiences this is really nothing to worry about. These women have nothing to fear from these men, they never had and don't now either.

Terrontress

psni wrote: »

How wrong you are with this statement.

Men and women receive the exact same training in police colleges. Specialist training is available to those who apply to those who work in specialist areas but only after probationary periods have passed, but these areas are in no way biased, tailored towards or in favour of female officers.

The roles of female and male officers in police forces is exactly the same.

So, can you search a female prisoner in a cell?

Would you take a first interview from a rape or child abuse victim?

Obviously I defer to your better knowledge but I would be surprised if there was not some consideration given to an officer's gender when dealing with females.

Do you subscribe to the notion above that a female, when female officers are present, who requests to be dealt with by females is wrong to do so?

stockyboie

She wasn't a victim or witness. She had committed a crime. The woman made wild accusations for no other reason than to make trouble. The amount of defamatory and malicious complaints made against gardai everywhere, but especially in Mayo, is outrageous and never followed up on. You can't say it's alright for her to accuse him of being all but a rapist in front of everyone and then deny the Garda the right to make a joke about it to his mates while on his break.

I hope the Garda sues her for defamation and breach of privacy and I hope it's the first of many such lawsuits by gardai. Malicious complaints can have a very bad effect on a person and their career.

yup i agree the way to go for this country is gardai carrying out lawsuits. Lets start suing people for deformation of character. what right have they got to complain about cops making comments about rape. None. They should just shut up or put up. Silly citizens. What do they know?

source

stockyboie wrote: »

Regardless of what comments are made by arrested people its not acceptable or right in any context for for a police officer to ever make a joke about rape. Why are people having trouble understanding this. The only reason i think they are is because they do think its ok and can't see whats wrong with it. This isn't iraq its ireland.

Regardless of what the regular man on the street is offended by. There is nothing illegal about a group of consenting adults discussing or joking about any topic in private. It doesn't matter how the details of this conversation come out. We live in a democracy where Human Rights are respected, As such we have a right to privacy. Why are people having trouble understanding this. The only reason I think they are is because they don't believe Gardai have the same rights as every other citizen. Which is very very wrong. Just because a man or woman puts on a uniform doesn't mean their rights are eroded.


There's a great poem out there about police work which I'll try to find which highlights the kind of things police see on a daily basis. There is a need for dark humour in the emergency services. I have heard much worse during the course of my job, from both male and female emergency services workers.

On another point, I heard someone from the rape crisis centre saying that these Gardai and their comments will put some people off reporting their own experiences to Gardai. This is a complete load of crap, the people to blame here are the two protesters who released the tape in an effort to gain publicity for themselves. It's their selfishness and faux rage at the whole thing that will have caused the problem.

EDIT: poem:
I'm Just Like You
author unknown

I have been where you fear to be;
I have seen what you fear to see;
I have done what you fear to do;
All these things I have done for you.

I am the one you lean upon,
The one you cast your scorn upon,
The one you bring your troubles to,
All these things I have been for you.

The one you ask to stand apart,
The one you feel should have no heart,
The one you call the "man in blue";
But I am a person, just like you.

And through the years,
I have come to see
That I am not what you ask of me.
So take this badge, take this gun;
Will you take it? - Will anyone?

And when you watch a person die
And hear a battered baby cry,
Then do you think that you can be
All these things you ask of me?

source

stockyboie wrote: »

yup i agree the way to go for this country is gardai carrying out lawsuits. Lets start suing people for deformation of character. what right have they got to complain about cops making comments about rape. None. They should just shut up or put up. Silly citizens. What do they know?

Seeing as you changed your post while i was quoting the previous post, I will also respond to this one. If the members involved get disciplined or fired because of this recording then yes the do have grounds to take a lawsuit. The recording is inadmissible in any court, due to the way it was recorded, and therefore cannot be used as evidence against the Gardai. No as I said in my previous post the implied right of privacy in this country means that they have no right to complain the members about these specific comments about rape.

If the members had stood within earshot of the persons and made comments then yes there would be grounds for a complaint, but not when the comments are made in private.

The last 2 lines I won't change......."Silly citizens. What do they know?" It would appear in this instance very little. If the Gardai arrested these two women, or anyone for that matter, based on an illegally made recording such as this one then there'd be war. But because of the nature of the comment the Gardai made, the fact that this is an illegally made recording goes out the window..........There's a feeling here of let the witch hunt commence.

Terrontress wrote: »

So, can you search a female prisoner in a cell?

Would you take a first interview from a rape or child abuse victim?

Obviously I defer to your better knowledge but I would be surprised if there was not some consideration given to an officer's gender when dealing with females.

Do you subscribe to the notion above that a female, when female officers are present, who requests to be dealt with by females is wrong to do so?

No I cannot, search a female prisoner, however a female cannot search a male either, so I don't know where you're going with this point?

Yes I have and I know a number of other male members who have taken rape statements. The one I took turned out to have been a lie on the part of the woman.

While you asked these questions directly of PSNI, I felt i should answer too, Yes I do subscribe to your last point, as do the majority of female members I know. I have received exactly the same training as my female counterparts, Let me expand on your question......Should a Gay person be allowed demand to speak to a Gay Garda, A black person, demand a black Garda, A jewish person demand a jewish Garda, A muslim person demand a muslim garda, No because every person in An Garda Siochana is trained to the same standard.

Also most of the time a female asks to speak to a female Garda it has nothing to do with rape or sexual assault. They just feel more comfortable talking to a female, what happens if a female is not working that night? Which is a possibility in the country stations.

MagicSean

stockyboie wrote: »

yup i agree the way to go for this country is gardai carrying out lawsuits. Lets start suing people for deformation of character. what right have they got to complain about cops making comments about rape. None. They should just shut up or put up. Silly citizens. What do they know?

Either you didn't read all of my post or didn't understand it. At the start of the tape one of the protesters said that the first girl arrested would not be safe with the Garda. She said this in front of many people, both Gardaí and civilians. This is defamation as defined under the Defamation Act.

You also appear to have ignored the phrase "malicious complaint", the key word being malicious. It means a complaint without any grounds and made with the sole purpose of tarnishing a Gardas reputation. Gardaí are subject to these every day and there is no punishment for people who make these complaints.

Discodog

Having lived in the UK for many years this thread reminds me of the comments made by serving officers during all the Police scandals there. It was considered a matter of honour to defend your mates at all cost. It resulted in massive corruption & Irish men being sentenced for crimes that they did not commit.

It is a sad indication of where the Gardai are, in terms of respect, that people speak out in their support. It is an honour to be allowed to enforce the law & the public have to be sure that Gardai do so without any preconceived or prejudicial thought.

If this incident had happened in many other countries the officers would be in very serious grief. How can an officer who considers rape to be a joke ever be trusted in his, often sensitive, everyday work ?. How can a woman report a rape or sexual assault if she worries that the Gardai might consider it a joke ?.

These men have no place in the the Gardai & neither do any who support them.

MagicSean

Discodog wrote: »

Having lived in the UK for many years this thread reminds me of the comments made by serving officers during all the Police scandals there. It was considered a matter of honour to defend your mates at all cost. It resulted in massive corruption & Irish men being sentenced for crimes that they did not commit.

It is a sad indication of where the Gardai are, in terms of respect, that people speak out in their support. It is an honour to be allowed to enforce the law & the public have to be sure that Gardai do so without any preconceived or prejudicial thought.

If this incident had happened in many other countries the officers would be in very serious grief. How can an officer who considers rape to be a joke ever be trusted in his, often sensitive, everyday work ?. How can a woman report a rape or sexual assault if she worries that the Gardai might consider it a joke ?.

These men have no place in the the Gardai & neither do any who support them.

He didn't consider rape to be a joke. He considered the idea of him being a rapist to be a joke. There's a big difference there.

Discodog

k_mac wrote: »

He didn't consider rape to be a joke. He considered the idea of him being a rapist to be a joke. There's a big difference there.

I listened to the "tape" & read the transcripts. To me there is little doubt of what was said or implied. It is quite possible that, in the near future, a Guard will be interviewing an alleged assault or rape victim. They will be doing all they can to treat the victim with sympathy & understanding. The actions of the officers on the tape seriously prejudice this process. They undermine confidence in the Gardai. What will the officer say - "we are not all the same ?"

There is every possibility that their actions will put people off reporting rape & thereby allowing an offender to stay free to re-offend. It is disappointing that none of the officers sought to admonish or disassociate themselves from the remarks.

The "private" lives & comments of Gardai are relevant. Many years ago a friend of mine married a Police Officer in England. At the reception I was asked what I wanted to drink & I said Coke, as I was driving. Another officer came over & joked "Ah you are with friends now" & gave me his card - to give to anyone who stopped me on the way home.