Which affordable transport projects should go ahead in 2011-2014?

BrianD

robd wrote: »

I'm not convinced on Maynnoth line either. The diesel railcars are still quite new and have about 30 years of life left. 10 years till mid-life upgrade. Would be very wasteful to replace with new Dart rolling stock at a time when money is so tight and we need to get the best bang for buck we can.

One solution would be to DARTify the Maynooth line and take the rolling stock and deploy it for the outer suburban areas. It is ridiculous to consider the extension of the DART to Drogheda as it will give these commuters very little extra and degrades the service for users within the city area. What would be practical is to run regional expresses from Drogheda direct to the city with perhaps one - two stops on the way. This means that Drogheda commuters have a faster service to Dublin.

Luas is the best option IMO. Think the O'Connell street part needs to be relooked at. Would prefer to see double track on Malborough Street as much less disruptive. Network Direct could remove Dublin Buses dependency on piling buses up on lower end of this street.

I wouldn't favour the Marlborough St. route over O'Connell St. It's a narrow st and I would speculate that it would be difficult to construct a junction so that trams can move from one line to the other. This is not to facilitate passengers but engineering and maintenance - at the moment there are two depots. Plus Marlborough St. requires a new bridge,

2 extra Luas lines (Lucan and Broombridge) would give the Luas the traction it needs to become the priority mode of transport in the city. While I do think a Metro is better, the Luas is a very good compromise for a much lower cost and that's what it's all about at the moment. Some money needs to be put into security too though.

It's already an accepted mode of transport. Luas users aren't exclusively LUAS users!

dynamick

Aard wrote: »

Lucan Luas isn't in Leo V's constituency, so I doubt he'd push for it. It's way too low down on anyone's list of priorities, even if they are cheap ones.

My mistake. Maynooth line goes through his constituency

robd

BrianD wrote: »

One solution would be to DARTify the Maynooth line and take the rolling stock and deploy it for the outer suburban areas. It is ridiculous to consider the extension of the DART to Drogheda as it will give these commuters very little extra and degrades the service for users within the city area. What would be practical is to run regional expresses from Drogheda direct to the city with perhaps one - two stops on the way. This means that Drogheda commuters have a faster service to Dublin.


I wouldn't favour the Marlborough St. route over O'Connell St. It's a narrow st and I would speculate that it would be difficult to construct a junction so that trams can move from one line to the other. This is not to facilitate passengers but engineering and maintenance - at the moment there are two depots. Plus Marlborough St. requires a new bridge,

It's already an accepted mode of transport. Luas users aren't exclusively LUAS users!

I just don't see the point in electrification. The diesel railcars are a good compromise at a time when funds are tight. They're perfectly adequate.

Yes Marlborough St. is narrow which means it can be dedicated to Luas only plus local access. Dedicated streets make more sense.

The turn can be made if one of the pubs (such as the Plough) is CPO'ed. The path in front of Abbey is also extra wide allowing corner to be taken. The bridge is already being built as Luas will run one way down Marlborough St. I'm just saying run both ways, leave O'Connell St. alone and create a dedicated Luas St.

Yes it's an accepted mode of transport. Very well received by Dubliners. Beat everyone's expectations. So continue to role it out. It works and is liked. Make it the most extensive network of Dublin transport, with connections to Heavy Rail and Bus Services. It's still largely disconnected from the rest of the transport network and itself.

bk

If Luas BXD gets built, I think they should reconsider the route option and go with option B from the original route options:

http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg

It goes up and down Marlborough Street, Hawkins St, Pearse St, Westland Row (integrates with Dart at Pearse), Merrion St, Stephens Green North.

The advantages are:

- Less streets to be closed during construction and less important streets, thus minimising impact to the city during construction.
- Wouldn't stop Metro North from being built in future (doesn't go near O'Connell bridge).
- Integrates with Dart at Pearse and closer to Connolly and Tara.
- Possibly cheaper to build due to sharing more resources and not needing to dig up two different streets.
- Doesn't go in front of our must historic buildings of the GPO, Trinity and College Green and therefore not messing up the views of this buildings with ugly wire work.
- Therefore no need for an expensive third rail/battery operated trams as is likely to be demanded by Dublin City Council, etc. because of the last point.

This then leaves the possibility for College Green to be closed and turned into a beautiful european style square at he heart of our city, which would make for a great tourist attraction and a great civil space for locals.

serfboard

bk wrote: »

If Luas BXD gets built, I think they should reconsider the route option and go with option B from the original route options:

http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg

It goes up and down Marlborough Street, Hawkins St, Pearse St, Westland Row (integrates with Dart at Pearse), Merrion St, Stephens Green North.

The advantages are:

- Less streets to be closed during construction and less important streets, thus minimising impact to the city during construction.
- Wouldn't stop Metro North from being built in future (doesn't go near O'Connell bridge).
- Integrates with Dart at Pearse and closer to Connolly and Tara.
- Possibly cheaper to build due to sharing more resources and not needing to dig up two different streets.
- Doesn't go in front of our must historic buildings of the GPO, Trinity and College Green and therefore not messing up the views of this buildings with ugly wire work.
- Therefore no need for an expensive third rail/battery operated trams as is likely to be demanded by Dublin City Council, etc. because of the last point.

I'll add one more

- No need for Dublin Bus to change the huge numbers of bus routes that go around the front of Trinity and down Nassau Street. Except if you do this ...

bk wrote: »

This then leaves the possibility for College Green to be closed and turned into a beautiful european style square at he heart of our city, which would make for a great tourist attraction and a great civil space for locals.

See my point above about the buses. However, I do agree about this space - I must say it looked fantastic on the telly during Obama's visit.

bk

serfboard wrote: »

I'll add one more

- No need for Dublin Bus to change the huge numbers of bus routes that go around the front of Trinity and down Nassau Street. Except if you do this ...

See my point above about the buses. However, I do agree about this space - I must say it looked fantastic on the telly during Obama's visit.

Yes, my idea is that going with this plan, you minimise disturbance to the city. DB can continue to operate as it currently does for the most part (I know they use Marlborough St, but that will be disturbed under either plan).

Then when this Luas line is complete. Work on closing and pedestrianise College Green could begin.

Yes, that would disturb DB then, however I think this would actually be a good thing. With a cross city Luas line, DB should really reorgainse it's bus routes anyway, with much fewer cross city bus routes and most routes turning back around on the North and South side of the city.

Of course this needs to be done in conjunction with a fairly priced integrated ticketing so people can use the Luas if going from the north of the city to the south of the city. And a large number of Dublin bikes to allow people cycle North to South.

Pete_Cavan

bk wrote: »

If Luas BXD gets built, I think they should reconsider the route option and go with option B from the original route options:

http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg

It goes up and down Marlborough Street, Hawkins St, Pearse St, Westland Row (integrates with Dart at Pearse), Merrion St, Stephens Green North.

The advantages are:

- Less streets to be closed during construction and less important streets, thus minimising impact to the city during construction.
- Wouldn't stop Metro North from being built in future (doesn't go near O'Connell bridge).
- Integrates with Dart at Pearse and closer to Connolly and Tara.
- Possibly cheaper to build due to sharing more resources and not needing to dig up two different streets.
- Doesn't go in front of our must historic buildings of the GPO, Trinity and College Green and therefore not messing up the views of this buildings with ugly wire work.
- Therefore no need for an expensive third rail/battery operated trams as is likely to be demanded by Dublin City Council, etc. because of the last point.

This then leaves the possibility for College Green to be closed and turned into a beautiful european style square at he heart of our city, which would make for a great tourist attraction and a great civil space for locals.

IMO the option is to send both Luas tracks down O'Connell Street. That way, not only could we pedestrianise College Green, we could also pedesrianise OCS. This would make Dublins city centre a fantastic place to shop and work and be extremely attractive to tourists - plenty of public transport options but free of traffic. When (if?) we get MN and DU built, there will be no need for almost every bus to go into the city centre.

DB network could be redesigned to act as a feeder service to Metro, Dart and Luas, and to provide orbital routes. We could create a number of transport hubs where buses link with Metro and/or Dart and/or Luas, such as Heuston, SSG, Pearse, Broombridge, Drumcondra and Docklands. This would provide an actual transport network where the various modes of transport we have compliment each other allowing greater journey options and making the system more attractive, instead of a rake of stand alone lines which compete with each other.

Sponge Bob

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We could create a number of transport hubs where buses link with Metro and/or Dart and/or Luas, such as Heuston, SSG, Pearse, Broombridge, Drumcondra and Docklands. This would provide an actual transport network.

Ah but that would require joined up thinking in a city that cannot even organise integrated ticketing. Not in my lifetime so

And CIE were prepared to go to a full public hearing the Dart Underground without publishing anything on the Missing links section without which Dart Underground would be the whitest of all elephants. IE even seem to think they are applying for arailway order in the next 7 months and KRP2 ( minus the electrification ) would be cheapest of all the Dublin train/tram projects as a standalone.

strassenwo!f

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And CIE were prepared to go to a full public hearing the Dart Underground without publishing anything on the Missing links section without which Dart Underground would be the whitest of all elephants. IE even seem to think they are applying for arailway order in the next 7 months and KRP2 ( minus the electrification ) would be cheapest of all the Dublin train/tram projects as a standalone.

The details about how they were going to get 16 trains per hour per direction into the tunnel were also somewhat sketchy. It might have been possible with one or more extra platforms in the Spencer Dock station, but that or those still aren't part of the plan. 16 tph at any time of the day is thus complete fantasy on the part of Irish Rail.

BrianD

robd wrote: »

I just don't see the point in electrification. The diesel railcars are a good compromise at a time when funds are tight. They're perfectly adequate.

I would disagree. Converting to DART means that we at least have a 2 line rapid rail system to build on. Yes, it is somewhat about perception - waht's the difference between an electric and a diesel engine if the same service is being provided. But perception is reality. The diesel cars can be redeployed to provide express services from the likes of Drogheda, Mullingar etc.

Yes Marlborough St. is narrow which means it can be dedicated to Luas only plus local access. Dedicated streets make more sense.

In my opinion, that the Marlborough St is too narrow for tram operations (either one or two way) and would be the death of the street. There are plenty of places in Europe where trams work in pedestrian areas but they tend to be more open. I just don't see Marlborough St. surviving being pedestrianised and then having trams as well.

The turn can be made if one of the pubs (such as the Plough) is CPO'ed. The path in front of Abbey is also extra wide allowing corner to be taken. The bridge is already being built as Luas will run one way down Marlborough St. I'm just saying run both ways, leave O'Connell St. alone and create a dedicated Luas St.

Why ruin the streetscape when O'connell St. has the space for the turn. O'Connell has the space for 2 way tram traffic and this is a proven fact. It just takes a change of mind set from the various organisations who have got used to the status quo. Despite what Dublin CC say, tram operations perfectly compliment the modern look of O'Connell St. and the RPA have demonstrated that they can minimise the infrastructure clutter. Even so, the infrastructure is less visually intrusive then the city fathers believe - I've been to many European cities and I remember the trams and the buildings but not the wires!

Yes it's an accepted mode of transport. Very well received by Dubliners. Beat everyone's expectations. .

Agreed but I don't think it beat anybody's expectations. It was a no brainer that it would be accepted and do well.

Judgement Day

Found this amazing piece by accident today. Shouldn't think that anything will come of it though.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2011-03-31.155.0&s=speaker%3A97+section%3Adebates

monument

BrianD wrote: »

In my opinion, that the Marlborough St is too narrow for tram operations (either one or two way) and would be the death of the street. There are plenty of places in Europe where trams work in pedestrian areas but they tend to be more open. I just don't see Marlborough St. surviving being pedestrianised and then having trams as well.

Remove the buses, parking, and loading bays and Marlborough St looks to be a lot wider. It could easily take two trams with room left for stops, and still have cycle lanes or to widen footpaths.

Trams are not as wide as buses and are far less imposing to a street than double deckers. There's loads of room on the street. This is from Google Street view, from the Northern end down:

View 1: Very wide footpath | two very wide lanes | very small footpath

View 2: Very wide footpath | two very wide lanes | wide footpath

View 3: Wide footpath | two very wide lanes | wide footpath

View 4: Normal / wide footpath | parking | one-way carriage way | parking / loading | normal footpath

View 5: Normal footpath | parking | wide one-way carriageway | normal footpath

View 6: Normal / wide footpath | coach parking / parking | wide one-way carriageway | wide / normal footpath

View 7: Wide footpath | parking / footpath build out | wide one-way carriageway | normal footpath

View 8: Normal / wide footpath | bus parking | wide one-way carriageway | normal footpath

View 9: Wide / normal footpath | very wide lanes | wide / normal footpath

marmurr1916

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ah but that would require joined up thinking in a city that cannot even organise integrated ticketing. Not in my lifetime so

But the Great Leap Forward is imminent!

London has the Oyster, Hong Kong the Octopus and now, the Irish Independent can reveal, the integrated ticketing system for Dublin, first promised in 2002, will be launched in three months.

It will be called the Leap card. It's almost 10 years late and will have cost €55m to develop, but when it comes online in late August it could transform how hundreds of thousands of public transport users come into the capital every day.

Smart cards allow commuters to travel on bus, rail and tram without having to buy tickets for each leg of a journey.

Instead, they pre-pay and wave cards at magnetic readers at the each end of their journey.

A computer system calculates the appropriate fare and deducts it from the customer's account.

The 40,000 holders of smart cards on Iarnrod Eireann (30,000) and Luas (10,000), will immediately have their cards replaced with the Leap card.

Dublin Bus would not give an exact figure for the number of its commuters with smart cards. However, it says that average boarding times have reduced from seven to four seconds since its card system was rolled out in 2008.

It emerged last year that transport companies plan to increase cash fares by up to 10pc in a move to encourage people to use the Leap card.

The National Transport Authority (NTA) said that the 'Leap' name was chosen to convey the ease with which commuters would move between Dublin Bus, Luas, Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann services.

"The name is descriptive of a hassle-free way to travel, is easy to remember, and is visually linked through a frog graphic," a spokeswoman said.

Next week, up to 50 people will begin the final stage of testing between Dublin Bus and Luas services, with another 500 recruited in the coming months.

In July, Iarnrod Eireann will be added to the system, and Bus Eireann will join before the end of the year. The cards will also be issued to holders of annual bus, rail or Luas cards.

Private bus operators will eventually be added.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/great-leap-forward-as-commuter-card-unveiled-2667075.html

1huge1

marmurr1916 wrote: »

But the Great Leap Forward is imminent!



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/great-leap-forward-as-commuter-card-unveiled-2667075.html

Good news for Dublin commuters, hope its implemented well and is good value for money.

Aidan1

I just don't see Marlborough St. surviving being pedestrianised and then having trams as well.

To be honest, I'm not sure how Marlborough Street could get much worse - it's already entirely embarrassing. Perhaps the only benefit of the proposal to run a luas down there is that it would bring some life to the street, involve a phyical overhaul of the streetscape, and potentially lead to some new investment.

Otherwise, I would have thought the obvious route would be to run both lines up O'Connell Street, and to close the street to private cars as much as possible (there would be some issue about access to car parks, obviously). A full Luas/Metro interchange on O'Connell Street, would be an extremely useful addition to the cities transport infrastructure, and would be make O'Connell street even more of a focal point for the city, which it should be.

lucernarian

I think O'Connell st is too important for bus routes to have the interference of two luas tracks on the street. One will be bad enough as it is:(