Still mourning Borders bookshop, but . . .

Montallie

I'm still mourning the loss of Borders in Blanchardstown, and was highly amused to come across this at the weekend (you may or may not know that even Borders in the US is a goner now):

http://ereads.com/2011/04/borders-has-one-last-laugh.html

(Hope I'm allowed to post a link to this pic).

I'd also like to share a new discovery with all you bookies out there who, like me, still prefer the real thing to ebooks. Looking around Hughes & Hughes in Dundrum Shopping Centre (well, in the car park), I discovered a whole floor of sale books upstairs, from the very cheap to great value more expensive ones (I found prices ranging from €2 to €13). Now I can browse to my heart's content, and downstairs they have chairs just like the ones they used to have in Borders. Oh, and there's a lovely little coffee shop too, replacing the Starbucks that used to be there.

Damian Duffy

Montallie wrote: »

I'm still mourning the loss of Borders in Blanchardstown, and was highly amused to come across this at the weekend (you may or may not know that even Borders in the US is a goner now):

http://ereads.com/2011/04/borders-has-one-last-laugh.html

(Hope I'm allowed to post a link to this pic).

I'd also like to share a new discovery with all you bookies out there who, like me, still prefer the real thing to ebooks. Looking around Hughes & Hughes in Dundrum Shopping Centre (well, in the car park), I discovered a whole floor of sale books upstairs, from the very cheap to great value more expensive ones (I found prices ranging from €2 to €13). Now I can browse to my heart's content, and downstairs they have chairs just like the ones they used to have in Borders. Oh, and there's a lovely little coffee shop too, replacing the Starbucks that used to be there.

I like Hughes and Hughes, the staff are friendly and the shop in Dundrum is great for a sit down. However, the books are ridiculously overpriced and the selection, for the most part, is terrible.

Eliot Rosewater

That's a great link - cheers Montallie!

I was in Hodges & Figgis over the weekend. It's an absolutely gorgeous place. I could easily spend a few days in there. But it's horrendously over priced. Thus Spoke Zarathustra was between €11 and €13 in there - about double the online price.

I'm all for supporting local businesses, and keeping bookshops alive because they're great places to be, but local businesses and bookshops have to give you something back in return, too. Buying a book in a book shop is a nice experience, but is it worth the price of another book?


EDIT: another example, this book is €50 in Waterstone's in Cork.

Montallie

Do you think so, Damien? I wonder if we've been in the same shop, or part of the shop. I'm afraid I normally walk right by full-priced shelves to browse through the sale ones (in this case, upstairs).

Yesterday I got, among others, A book on Crazy Patchwork for €2 (I'd been looking for it for ages since taking it out of the library), a book on how to draw birds for €1 (Search Press series), and a lovely book on the 50 houseplants that purify your home or office for €4.

I usually get my fiction from the library, unless it's something I've loved and want to keep, but there are shelves of novels there for those who want them.

I agree with you, Eliot, about how expensive some books can be, especially those well-known ones like you mention. Have you looked in Hodges Figgis basement? They always have good stuff there. My only carp is that, unlike in Hughes & Hughes, the remaindered ones tend to have that black mark on the bottom, which doesn't really make them suitable for giving away as gifts (which is one of the reasons I haunt sales of new books).

Toby Take a Bow

With all the recent closures of bookshops, I think it's probably clear that bookshops can't give anything more back to the customers. If you're running a shop, you're paying higher rents, you're paying your staff far better than the workers in Book Depository (and definitely better than Amazon), and you're not paying any tax on non-book items (well, most of them are based in areas where they don't have to pay tax). I'll use the Book Depository for items that I know I want well in advance, but will shop in town as it's far handier for where I'm based, and quicker too.

I think Hughes and Hughes are selling off all the stuff they were lumped with when they went bust last year. I don't think they could get sale-or-return options on the stock. They've some awful cr*p in their stores now, but I do like the one in Dundrum (awful location though).

Eliot Rosewater

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

With all the recent closures of bookshops, I think it's probably clear that bookshops can't give anything more back to the customers. If you're running a shop, you're paying higher rents, you're paying your staff far better than the workers in Book Depository (and definitely better than Amazon), and you're not paying any tax on non-book items (well, most of them are based in areas where they don't have to pay tax). I'll use the Book Depository for items that I know I want well in advance, but will shop in town as it's far handier for where I'm based, and quicker too.

I sincerely doubt Book Depository are paying, on average, less than Waterstone's. And both Amazon.co.uk and Book Depository, being businesses registered in the European Union, pay VAT at the rate at which it is charged in the country they are sending the item to. That is, at the same rate Waterstone's pay (which is 0% for books in the British Isles, anyway).

The economics of operating an online store are just better than that of operating a physical store, especially when you've optimised supply chains like that of the Book Depository. No rent; fewer staff; etc. Online stores also have a far better selection.

They also operate far tighter profit margins and engage in direct competition which benefits the consumer. Notice how the price of a book on Amazon and Book Depot are generally the same, and that if the price of a book on one site is lowered it will be lowered on the other soon after.

The move towards online shopping just reflects the natural tendency of consumers to choose the option they feel gives them the best deal . It's no condemnation of anyone that high street stores are in decline, it just means consumers don't consider the money spent on rents and utilities to maintain a high street presence worth it.

Montallie wrote: »

I agree with you, Eliot, about how expensive some books can be, especially those well-known ones like you mention. Have you looked in Hodges Figgis basement?

I'm rather pernickity about the books I buy!

Montallie

I think cr** in anything is a matter of opinion. I can only say again that I've got some good stuff in Hughes & Hughes in Dundrum. Not everyone would like my choices, nor I theirs. I do agree about the location, though. I only discovered it on the way out of the car park from doing our shopping one day.

I'm pernickety about my books, too, Eliot. But you can come across some nice ones in Hodges Figgis' basement, even classics like Thus Spake Zarathustra.

I buy a lot of books. I can't recall a week in recent years when I didn't buy at least three, though many of them would be at sale price. I go to the different branches of Easons and Hughes & Hughes, as well as Hodges Figgis and (until recently) its sister shop Waterstone's in Dawson Street when I can get to town. I also buy online from Amazon sellers (including the Book Depository), sometimes Amazon itself - though it tends to be dearer - and occasionally Bookcloseouts.com in the States (though they usually have that black mark on the bottom to show they're remaindered).

I like them all for various reasons, but I must confess that I was truly in love with Borders, whatever it was about it (and it wasn't Starbucks, because I didn't really like the one there). Perhaps that sounds sad.

For excellent-condition secondhand books I always go to Chapters in Parnell Street, though it's a little harder for me to get to. And there are library and charity sales around to fill in the gaps.

Toby Take a Bow

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I sincerely doubt Book Depository are paying, on average, less than Waterstone's.

There was a piece in the Sunday Times a couple of years back about workers in Amazon during Christmas time (I presume the same principal is employed during not so hectic working times):
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article5337770.ece
I knew friends who used to work in Waterstone's and they were saying that the pay wasn't so bad, especially if you were working there a little while.

It mentions some way of shipping through certain areas to not pay tax, but I'm not sure if that's true or not.

I agree with you on the imminent decline of the traditional book shop though. I don't think it will completely disappear though.

chickenbutt

Montallie wrote: »

I'm still mourning the loss of Borders in Blanchardstown, and was highly amused to come across this at the weekend (you may or may not know that even Borders in the US is a goner now):

http://ereads.com/2011/04/borders-has-one-last-laugh.html

Borders is only closing stores that don't bring in enough revenue, the ones that are still frequented and make money will be staying open. I stopped shopping there because I got fed up with the price and the poor customer service.

Denerick

Hodges and Fidges is my local; anytime I'm now in Dublin I spend around 50 quid in there. I have a loyalty card so once I spend 80 quid I get a tenner off my next purchase, which generally reduces the overall price by around an eigth, bringing it in line with mainstrem competitors.

Above all though I've always loved the buzz in there. Such a great selection of books, plenty of soft chairs, and only a stones throw away from my alma mater.

Tales of a mis-spent youth...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Damian Duffy

Montallie wrote: »

Do you think so, Damien? I wonder if we've been in the same shop, or part of the shop. I'm afraid I normally walk right by full-priced shelves to browse through the sale ones (in this case, upstairs).

Yesterday I got, among others, A book on Crazy Patchwork for €2 (I'd been looking for it for ages since taking it out of the library), a book on how to draw birds for €1 (Search Press series), and a lovely book on the 50 houseplants that purify your home or office for €4.

I usually get my fiction from the library, unless it's something I've loved and want to keep, but there are shelves of novels there for those who want them.

I agree with you, Eliot, about how expensive some books can be, especially those well-known ones like you mention. Have you looked in Hodges Figgis basement? They always have good stuff there. My only carp is that, unlike in Hughes & Hughes, the remaindered ones tend to have that black mark on the bottom, which doesn't really make them suitable for giving away as gifts (which is one of the reasons I haunt sales of new books).

I do think so, Montallie. Hughes and Hughes has always been a ridiculously overpriced store for as long as I can remember. A book that is say 9.50 in Hodges and Figgis will be at least 11.50 in Hughes and Hughes. I don't know how they can justify that. I admit the store itself is quite customer friendly, nice couches, seats, open etc but I ultimately want to buy a book for a reasonable price and they don't offer that.

You sound like you buy a lot of your books second hand, whilst I have no problem with that whatsoever, I'm a bit weird with my books in that I generally like a clean book to start with. Just like the feeling and it's then up to me to provide it with wear and tear. Don't get me wrong, I have bought plenty of second hand books but only in Chapters because they have a fantastic selection. Hughes and Hughes, any time I have visited, have never had a book on sale that is to my tastes.

I dearly want the book shop to stay alive, I have given hours of my time to Chapters and Hodges and Figgis but ultimately I want some decent value which is why I tend to use the book depository or amazon.

A recent example of a purchase for me was The Hare with Amber Eyes, think it was 21 euro in Hodges and Figgis which I bought there mainly because I had a voucher. The same book, at the time, was 10 euro on the book depository. I understand there are much more overheads but 11 euro difference? I can buy two more books with that online and you can see the problem.

Damian Duffy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is something that frustrates me. People just don't read anymore. Alot of friends of mine will list reading as an activity they enjoy but the reality is they may read 2-3 books tops a year. What I find even more difficult to understand is that sales of Kindle etc are on the increase which would indicate more and more people are reading but I don't think this is true. My personal opinion is that alot of people will buy a kindle because it's another device to own, it's nice to use etc, not because they are necessarily big readers.

Eliot Rosewater

The Irish Examiner reported this morning that there is a possibility that VAT will be introduced on books. It's annoying, but I don't think there's any reason not to - unless you think books should be incentivised, which could have merit as an argument.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

There was a piece in the Sunday Times a couple of years back about workers in Amazon during Christmas time (I presume the same principal is employed during not so hectic working times):
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article5337770.ece
I knew friends who used to work in Waterstone's and they were saying that the pay wasn't so bad, especially if you were working there a little while.

Thanks for that Toby. The article certainly doesn't do Amazon any favours. Most retailers - including Waterstone's - take on low-paid staff for December, but the working conditions would obviously be better than those described in the article.

Toby Take a Bow

Damian Duffy wrote: »

A recent example of a purchase for me was The Hare with Amber Eyes, think it was 21 euro in Hodges and Figgis which I bought there mainly because I had a voucher. The same book, at the time, was 10 euro on the book depository. I understand there are much more overheads but 11 euro difference? I can buy two more books with that online and you can see the problem.

When did you buy it in Hodges for 21 euro? I got it there recently for a tenner. It was in paperback though.

Monkey61

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

If you're running a shop, you're paying higher rents, you're paying your staff far better than the workers in Book Depository (and definitely better than Amazon)

I'd just like to point out on that subject, that Waterstone's (in the UK anyway) pay staff less than the quoted rates for Amazon Christmas temps in that newspaper article.

Toby Take a Bow

Monkey61 wrote: »

I'd just like to point out on that subject, that Waterstone's (in the UK anyway) pay staff less than the quoted rates for Amazon Christmas temps in that newspaper article.

Maybe on entry level positions, although I don't know anybody who's worked for them in the UK. They'd have to be paying them minimum wage at least, and as Eliot says, the terms and conditions would be superior, and Waterstone's are definitely a good enough company for paying incremental increases once you're being made permanent (and include statutory increases if you happen to be working in large cities with high costs of living). Any unsociable hours worked would be worked as overtime and transport would be paid for. Again, might be very different in England though.

Montallie

I still think Hughes & Hughes' 70% sale in Dundrum is great value. Okay, maybe a lot of people wouldn't be bothered with my choices, but here's what I got this morning for €31 (down from €114+), all in absolutely new condition:

Strange Games and other odd things to do with your time (Montegue Blister) (Hardback)

The Click That Does The Trick: Trick Training Your Bird the Clicker Way (Robin Deutsch)

Your Lottery Syndicate Book: The simple and easy way for you to set up your Lottery Syndicate . . . Today! (Karl Jennings & Nigel Adams)

Grandmother's Wisdom: Good, old-fashioned advice handed down through the ages (Lee Faber) (Hardback)

The Life Book: Laugh more, Love more, Play more, Earn more (Nina Grunfeld)

Wolf Hall (Hilary Mantel)

201 Knockout Answers To Tough Interview Questions (Linda Matias)

Horrid Henry's Dreadful Deeds: Ten favourite stories – and more! (Francesca Simon) (Hardback)

All are recent editions and three of them I've earmarked to use as gifts later in the year.

coffee_cake

H&H sale in dundrum shopping centre??
Thanks for that Mont!

I usually buy in H&F or from amazon. I never really compared the prices that much unless I didn't mind buying secondhand. I love H&F though, nothing compares to a bricks & mortar shop with all those books lined up on the shelves!

Montallie

bluewolf wrote: »

I usually buy in H&F or from amazon. I never really compared the prices that much unless I didn't mind buying secondhand. I love H&F though, nothing compares to a bricks & mortar shop with all those books lined up on the shelves!

I love Hodges Figgis too, and they have a great range of books there. They have good sales in summer and new year's also, although as I said before some of the books are quite heavily marked with a black line on the bottom, as are their excellent sale books in the basement. My knees aren't great, so if you ever see someone crawling up or down the stairs there it might well be me (though I'm sure there are other people who defy similar problems to get their book fix at a reasonable price). It's a shame the lift in HF doesn't go down to the basement.

In Dundrum I can get the lift to the discount floor, which is great, as there's a fair amount of browse-walking to do among all the books. The sale books really are new condition and without the black mark that tells those I'm giving them to I got them cheaply. All right, if they love books as much as I do it probably wouldn't matter, but some people like their reads to be in perfect condition from the start, that is, not in what is called 'reading copy' condition.

There's a nice little café there, too, with (very important for me) a loo, so I don't have to interrupt my browsing partway through to return to the Centre.

coffee_cake

Do you go to Chapters, Montallie?
I hear people raving about it a lot but I'm just never down that way.

Montallie

bluewolf wrote: »

Do you go to Chapters, Montallie?
I hear people raving about it a lot but I'm just never down that way.

Yes, I go to Chapters too, mostly upstairs. They have good books downstairs, too, often at amazing prices, but I really like looking through the secondhand ones. They have a small, old-fashioned lift in the middle/back, but sometimes it's not working. I have dragged myself upstairs when that happens, going sideways, but it's larger than HF so there's more walking then. It's a while since I got in there, though. The parking's obviously better in Dundrum and even in the Dawson Street/Nassau Street area. It's a bit of a walk through the Ilac Centre and down Parnell Street, or from the Rotunda area. Some of the new books there have a slightly annoying feature - a protruding bar code stuck just inside the back cover.

Toby Take a Bow

I think the black line in HF is to notify the booksellers that it was bought cheap in the sale if some sly person is trying to return it for another (non-discounted) book at full value. It is annoying though.

I remember buying 4 books in Chapters in a buy-one-get-one-free type deal when they were in Abbey Street and remember being pretty annoyed at the security tags they had stickered to the back of the books (but when you get a book free it's hard to complain - especially if that odd cranky shouting person from Chapters is behind the counter).