Ceiling speakers... Stero, mono, both?

aidancoughlan

Hi,
I just ordered and took delivery of 2monitor c165 ceiling speakers to install over my dining room table (arrived very quickly thank you!). W'eve pre-wired here over the table with 2-core "speaker cable ( I don't know the spec).
We've also got one 2-core cabled point over the adjoining open plan kitchen area (ready for a speaker), and one wall point in another adjacent open plan area sunroom.
They are all basically one area approx 20ft by 25ft.

What speakers should I put in the kitchen point and sunroom... Mono or stereo?

What do I need to drive all of these speakers, will an ordinary midi stero do, I'm no audiophile as you can probably tell, but don't want really crappy sound. Can such a stereo power 2 c165's over the dining table (left and right), and also 2 other separate speakers (each self contained stereo or mono) in distinct areas?

Help, What do I need !?

Richersounds.ie: John

aidancoughlan wrote: »

Hi,
I just ordered and took delivery of 2monitor c165 ceiling speakers to install over my dining room table (arrived very quickly thank you!). W'eve pre-wired here over the table with 2-core "speaker cable ( I don't know the spec).
We've also got one 2-core cabled point over the adjoining open plan kitchen area (ready for a speaker), and one wall point in another adjacent open plan area sunroom.
They are all basically one area approx 20ft by 25ft.

What speakers should I put in the kitchen point and sunroom... Mono or stereo?

What do I need to drive all of these speakers, will an ordinary midi stero do, I'm no audiophile as you can probably tell, but don't want really crappy sound. Can such a stereo power 2 c165's over the dining table (left and right), and also 2 other separate speakers (each self contained stereo or mono) in distinct areas?

Help, What do I need !?

Where to start...

The C165's are excellent speakers both in terms of value and Audio quality - I have them installed in one of my own offices here and I can vouch that they sound great!

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/ci-series/100-series/c165/your-speaker

We also do a version of the SC165 which is a single point stereo speaker and would have been ideal for your purposes however it seems that you only have a single twin core cable and stereo needs 4 core (ok all you tweakers out there I know you can get away with 3 in extremis but we are talking generalities here guys) so I cannot see any advantage of using a 165 T2 stereo unit - I would stick to a standard SC165 - however now you have the issue of matching up an inceiling speaker to a wall speaker! - if the wall is a stud wall, we don't have an issue as there is a wall versioon of the SC165 - it's called the W165 http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/ci-series/100-series/w165/your-speaker and retails at £79.95 each and is a perfect voice match for the SC165. If you cannot bury the TV into the wall then we will have to panic! Give me a shout if this is the case and perhaps if you could send me a sketch of some photos of the scene of the crime I'll see what we can recommend.

On the amplifier front - I would not recommend the normal 'MIDI' style system as most of them just don't have the capability to drive decent speakers - we do several amps with A & B speakers which would be ideal & I would be happy to quote if you, including the excellent TEAC AG790 receiver (an amp including a Radio) at just £149.95 http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/teac/ag790/teac-ag7090

Keep me posted if any of this makes sense or if we can assist in any way,

Best regards,

John Mc & Crew

aidancoughlan

Thanks John,
Sounds like I should go for another c165 for the kitchen, and a sc165 (wall version) for the sunroom. I see that the teac amp has 4 speaker outputs. I will want to use two outputs to the dining room speakers Already ordered (L and R stereo), use another c165 for the kitchen in mono, and the sc165 wall speaker in the sunroom in mono.
Will the Teac amp handle this configuration?
Thanks,
aidan

Richersounds.ie: Dave

Hi Aidan.

yes that will work.

The only down side is that the stereo image will be distored as you will have one speaker in one room and the other (usually beside it) in the other room, so if you get a piece of music which has music in just one channel, you won't hear it.

If you are concerned about that then the T2 version will fix that issue and you could run these off the same amp.

The A & B speaker switching will allow you to turn off the pair dining room and leave the others on.

I hope this helps, but let me know if I have confused you any !

Cheers


Dave

aidancoughlan

Hi Dave,
I think you've probably misunderstood my question, or I've not phrased it correctly.

I understand that I can run two pairs of stereo speakers from the Teac amp as you say (one pair in dining room giving stereo, and the other pair split between the kitchen and sunroom. However, having just one half of a stereo track in each of those rooms would be more than a downside, it's just not a runner at all.

My question was: can the Teac amp handle stereo to one pair (dining room which is wired with two 2-core speaker cables), and mono (carrying both channels in the one signal on one 2-core cable to each of kitchen and sunroom simultaneously, which are wired with one 2-core cable each). If not, what di I need to handle this?

Remember, the pre-wiring is: two 2-core cables in dining room, and one 2-core cable in each of the kitchen and sunroom. They are all adjoining, and wired from one point with the intention of only one zone, but the kitchen and sunroom are far enough apart that sending one channel to each is not an option.

Many thanks,
Aidan

aidancoughlan

Just thinking: can i wire the two c165 speakers in the dining room to speaker outputs 1&2 on the Teac, and with the other two speakers outputs: combine them into one mono signal with some kind of stereo-to-mono adapter gadget, and then split that mono signal into two mono signals for the kitchen and sunroom with a mono Y splitter thing.
That's really what I am looking for I think.

Richersounds.ie: Kenny

Hey Aidan.

Further to our phone conversation earlier this morning I have done some digging around and can not seem to find anything that will convert a stereo pair of speaker wires to one single mono pair.

The only way that I can think of is the way I described on the phone and Dave has mentioned the same above.

Perhaps when John/Dave are back on they might have heard of such a way to do the conversion.

Sorry I could not be of more help at the moment.

54kroc

Would you get a mono output if you take the positive output for the right speaker and the negative output for the left speaker?

aidancoughlan

Hi cork45,
I dont know I'm afraid.
I'll be really surprised if it turns out that it's not possible to handle my planned configuration some way. someone told me yesterday that just connecting the left signal from the amp to the speaker would give mono (apparently the left channel contains all the information, the right just augments it ?)
If that's the case it will be easy, but I'm not 100% sure if this info is accurate.

I'm hoping that John mc may have an answer for me when he gets in on Monday. The Teac 890 amp (£199) looks like it has lots of outputs, and two zones so I'm hoping it will handle it some way.

John, if you get time to catchup this thread, key thing is : I have pre-wired for four speakers with only 2-core cable by mistake. 2 of the speakers are together and I hope to use as zone A (L and R stereo). the other two are separate - I don't think Daves suggestion of L in one room and R in the other will not be workable, so was hoping to send mono signal to both those on zone B.

Richersounds.ie: Dave

Hi Aidan.

Unfortuantely I'm the bearer of bad news.

With one speaker cable in place, it's not possible to get a stereo signal sent to the speaker.

The speakers operate on the basis of one + and one - signal to make the circuit.

In some circumstances you can share the - but you still need another + which would mean that you still don't have enough cables in place.

The signal coming from the amplifer up one pair of cables cannot be altered to create a stereo effect as it's connected to the amplifier on either the L or the R channel. (mono) If the speaker cable had 2 x single cores running up the cable, then it could be done, but if it's normal speaker cable which is twisted copper, then you can't do it.

Changing the amplifier in this case will not fix the issue.

Not the news you wanted to hear, but unfortunately I can't see a way around it.

Regards


Dave

aidancoughlan

Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your responses... however, sorry to persist a little to make sure we are not talking cross-purposes.... I'm slightly confused by your reply.

The signal coming from the amplifer up one pair of cables cannot be altered to create a stereo effect as it's connected to the amplifier on either the L or the R channel

I'm aware of this since John's original reply... I've not been asking how to get stereo to one speaker via a single cable with two wires in it (I understand that its not possible)- I'm trying to find a way to get a fullMono signal to these 2 isolated speakers (by which I mean a single channel containing all music information combined, not just one of the channels).... while at the same time sending a separate L and R channel to the speakers over our dining room table for stereo effect there.

(mono) If the speaker cable had 2 x single cores running up the cable, then it could be done, but if it's normal speaker cable which is twisted copper, then you can't do it.

Just to clarify : each speaker has one cable running to it. That cable is made up of two, small separate twisted copper wires insulated from each other : described to us as "speaker cable" by an electrician. I understand this to mean "2 cores" ... is this what you mean by "2 x single cores" above , and if so... does the "then it could be done" mean there is a solution?

Just to repeat the pre-wiring in place:

Remember, the pre-wiring is: two 2-core cables in dining room, and one 2-core cable in each of the kitchen and sunroom

By "2-core", I mean the single cable with two separately insulated copper wires in it.

I was hoping some solution would be possible along the following lines:
(1) An amplifier (such as the TEAC 890) that has two zones, sending L and R to the two dining speakers on one zone, and mono signals to the other speakers on the other zone? Can you tell me if you know it's not possible at all, or if it's worth me searching further ?

(2) Possibility of two amplifiers : one sending Stereo L and R to dining table, and the other taking a signal from the first amp, but sending it out as a Mono signal to each of the other two isolated speakers? If this option is possible with any of your amps, can you let me know the cheapest pair of amps that will work ?

(3) Some sort of "combiner" or "mixer" gadget that would take in 4 wires from the AMP intended for L and R stereo, and output a combined "Mono" signal that could be wired to the two isolated speakers?. Sounds like you're not aware of such a gadget.... ?

(4) an AMP with a "mono" switch of some sort that would output the full music information to all speakers with a mono signal (we would forego stereo effect over the dining table with this option).? If you have such an AMP in the range, it may be the simplest option for us, and will probably do for background music.

(5) "Bridging" of the stereo output on *some* of the TEAC 890 L/R outputs in ZONE B as described in this article http://www.ehow.com/how_5810964_bridge-stereo-amplifier-mono.html ... will this be safe to work with the TEAC AG890 & the C165 speakers ? It seems to me (I think i'm only starting to make sense of this though) that this (if it works) would allow me to achieve stereo output on ZONE A, and mono output on total of 2 speakers via zone B ("bridging" a pair of the zone B outputs to each speaker)


best regards & thanks for your patience !
Aidan.

54kroc

Sorry for butting in again but if you wired output B from the amp into something like this would it give you your mono signal.

aidancoughlan

Cork45 ... that looks like exactly what I need !!

A search for Stereo to Mono Adapter also brought me to a recent similar topic http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056204676

John, are you sure these are discontinued ?
They seem available on
http://www.hifix.co.uk/in-ceiling---in-wall-speakers/kef/citrsm.html
http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/speakers/install-speaker-accessories/kef-citr-sm-stereo-to-mono-adapter/prod_157.html

If I understand it right, this would let me use the TEAC 890, zone A for proper L and R stereo via two speakers, and Zone B to drive two separate mono speakers , each adapted to mono through one of these gadgets. Just what I've been looking for...

Spot on ! Many thanks, will look into these...

Richersounds.ie: John

aidancoughlan wrote: »

Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your responses... however, sorry to persist a little to make sure we are not talking cross-purposes.... I'm slightly confused by your reply.

Apologies for this - confusion was not our intention.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

I'm aware of this since John's original reply... I've not been asking how to get stereo to one speaker via a single cable with two wires in it (I understand that its not possible)- I'm trying to find a way to get a fullMono signal to these 2 isolated speakers (by which I mean a single channel containing all music information combined, not just one of the channels)

Ok a Mono Channell, combining both the left & right channel information is possible using an isolating transformer like the KEF one you describe - Kef have said this morning that this unit is discontinued - however you may find stocks available in some retailers and if they are available I would grab one!

You could just wire the individual outputs from the separate LHS & RHS outputs into a mono speaker and in effect it will work - however we would not advise this.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

Just to clarify : each speaker has one cable running to it. That cable is made up of two, small separate twisted copper wires insulated from each other : described to us as "speaker cable" by an electrician. I understand this to mean "2 cores" ... is this what you mean by "2 x single cores" above , and if so... does the "then it could be done" mean there is a solution?

If you have a speaker cable that contains two separate isolated cores - all you can put down that is Mono - you can combine as many separate channels before it gets into the speaker cable but once a signal enters that cable it will be a mono signal - I know the wags will suggest D2A convertors etc - however from my understanding this is simple unshielded speaker cable and there are no decoding possibilities or power sources at the termination point to allow for decouding or uncoupling of signals - in my view from a practical viewpoint a combined mono signal is the best you can achieve.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

Just to repeat the pre-wiring in place:
By "2-core", I mean the single cable with two separately insulated copper wires in it.

Understood

aidancoughlan wrote: »

I was hoping some solution would be possible along the following lines:
(1) An amplifier (such as the TEAC 890) that has two zones, sending L and R to the two dining speakers on one zone,

Not a problem..

aidancoughlan wrote: »

and mono signals to the other speakers on the other zone? Can you tell me if you know it's not possible at all, or if it's worth me searching further ?

This is also not a problem once you combine the LHS & RHS signals from the speaker outputs of the Teac OR combine the LHS & RHS input source before they get into the Teac - this could be achieved by using a single phono to twin phono and only using one input on the Teac amplifier to drive each MONO speaker in Zone 2 - you would have to use a different source in this Zone 2 output and you would also have to source components that had 2 line level outputs to achieve this - again not ideal - if you can locate that Kef component I would go that way in preference.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

(2) Possibility of two amplifiers : one sending Stereo L and R to dining table, and the other taking a signal from the first amp, but sending it out as a Mono signal to each of the other two isolated speakers? If this option is possible with any of your amps, can you let me know the cheapest pair of amps that will work ?

Again the Teac will actually achieve the same end result in one package - but unless you can find an amplifier with a Mono switch (which none of the Amps that we stock have) I honestly cannot recommend anything to you I'm afraid.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

(3) Some sort of "combiner" or "mixer" gadget that would take in 4 wires from the AMP intended for L and R stereo, and output a combined "Mono" signal that could be wired to the two isolated speakers?. Sounds like you're not aware of such a gadget.... ?

Apologies again - I am aware of the KEF and in very rare instances I have had to construct a similiar components - however in any install we would always ensure that we have allowed for sufficient cabling to derive a stereo signal.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

(4) an AMP with a "mono" switch of some sort that would output the full music information to all speakers with a mono signal (we would forego stereo effect over the dining table with this option).? If you have such an AMP in the range, it may be the simplest option for us, and will probably do for background music.

As suggested above, however unfortunately we don't stock any amps with a Mono option - there are lots of budget amps available that will only operate in Mono - if you see any 100v line amp you can assume that most of them will have a mono option (if they are not just mono) however again I'm afraid that it's not something we stock as it's normally associated with PA/Commercial installs and we tend to concentrate on audiophile equipment.

aidancoughlan wrote: »

(5) "Bridging" of the stereo output on *some* of the TEAC 890 L/R outputs in ZONE B as described in this article http://www.ehow.com/how_5810964_bridge-stereo-amplifier-mono.html ... will this be safe to work with the TEAC AG890 & the C165 speakers ? It seems to me (I think i'm only starting to make sense of this though) that this (if it works) would allow me to achieve stereo output on ZONE A, and mono output on total of 2 speakers via zone B ("bridging" a pair of the zone B outputs to each speaker)

The AG980 is not designed to be bridged and the C165's nominal impedence is 6 Ohms - if you bridge the AG980 output the impedence will be a nominal 16 Ohms - If it was my house I might try it - I would not recommend or guarantee with anyone else's equipment!

best regards & thanks for your patience !
Aidan.[/QUOTE]
No problem - keep me posted