Healthy breeding age?

MissTiny

Hi,
I've a four year old Tibetan Spaniel at home but have been recently thinking of getting him a girlfriend for the sake of company and perhaps think about having puppies if all goes well
Could anyone let me know what is an appropriate age for females to begin breeding as I am unsure about the best option to take in this situation

Any help would be very much appreciated

kylith

You may be asking for trouble with this thread!

Firstly you need to make sure that your dog is suitable for breeding. This means a barrage of health tests. I'm not sure what genetic problems Tibetan Spaniels are prone to, but you're probably looking at hips, eyes, breathing at least. Then you need to make sure that he is a fantastic specimen of the breed, and that means showing and getting some rosettes. Then you'll have to do the same all over again with the bitch.

Breeding is costly in terms of health tests for the parents, health tests for the puppies, vaccinations, microchipping, registering, food, whelping equipment and, gods forbid, emergency vet bills if something goes wrong.

I'd say ask yourself why you're thinking of breeding. Is it because you think it's 'unfair' of him not to mate? If so, stop fretting; what he never has he'll never miss. My brother wanted to 'get a girlfriend' for his fella because "he's a lovely dog" and "I'd be a shame if he never got his end away". Thankfully a reminder of how many 'lovely dogs' are in rescues made him think twice and he got his fella neutered instead.

MissTiny

Very much appreciate the quick and detailed reply

Its not a decision I'm taking lightly by any means. The company for my dog would be wonderful, but I'm also considering it on the grounds of perhaps ongoing, long term breeding if things go well

I have a relation who used to breed dogs like a religion, I just wanted to get some basic information before pestering her for further details! Just wanted to get an idea of any recommended age to begin thinking about this for females

Definitely won't go ahead with it should any health issues arise as my dogs health is paramount to anything else (even my own!:rolleyes:)

Thanks for your help

andreac

MissTiny wrote: »

Very much appreciate the quick and detailed reply

Its not a decision I'm taking lightly by any means. The company for my dog would be wonderful, but I'm also considering it on the grounds of perhaps ongoing, long term breeding if things go well

I have a relation who used to breed dogs like a religion, I just wanted to get some basic information before pestering her for further details! Just wanted to get an idea of any recommended age to begin thinking about this for females

Definitely won't go ahead with it should any health issues arise as my dogs health is paramount to anything else (even my own!:rolleyes:)

Thanks for your help

Dogs shouldnt be bred from until they are at least 2 years old and in some bigger breeds even 3 as they take longer to mature.
Breeding for the reason you stated in your first post is not a valid reason to breed.

If your relation breeds like a religion then i would not be asking for their opinion as its sounds like they are more of a puppy farmer than breeder.

I would contact the Tibetan Spaniel Club and get some advice from them first before even considering breeding.
You will need to make sure you source a very well bred dog with good pedigree first and then go down the route of showing and proving the dog is worthy to be bred, then health tested etc.

Shanao

The first question I'm going to have to ask is why you want to breed your tibbie? Is there a particular reason, or is it more a case of if you get a female you might as well breed them (assuming they are both properly health tested and have good results of course)
Are you then willing to contract all puppies saying that they must be returned to you if there are any problems in the future with them?
A bitch should never be bred in consecutive heats and most breeders will only breed two to three litters from one bitch in her entire lifetime. If you're planning on going into longterm breeding, do you mean to buy another bitch down the line to continue breeding?
A bitch should never be bred before two years of age as well, so you will have to deal with her going into season a few times before she can breed; which will mean seperating her from the male several times.

MissTiny

Um...when I said she breeds them like a religion I meant she worshiped each dog like some form of God or treated them like her children... She was entirely legitimate and very well respected for a long time.
I do not associate with or advocate puppy farms, let me make that clear...

The idea came from a long time ago when I was advised how fulfilling it can be, I just never had the time for such a commitment. Now I have nothing but time and figured I could finally pursue this path. I was simply looking for advise on where to start with this whole thing, however it is still only a distant thought

lrushe

MissTiny wrote: »

I was simply looking for advise on where to start with this whole thing, however it is still only a distant thought

I would get your existing dog into some ring craft classes, enter some shows, get a feel for the what goes into maintaining and improving bloodlines from people who have been doing it for a long time.
If your dog is breed worthy he should pick up his championship in no time, along with some health testing you will be ready to find him some girlfriends or rather they will come looking for you!
Remember you should only breed your dog to a bitch who comliaments his faults thus improving the next generation so buying a female pup to breed to your dog to is not really realistic as you won't know how that pup will turn out and if she will be a match for the dog you already have.

angelfire9

Not every home breeder is a puppy farmer it must be said
My best friend had an IKC registered golden retriever that had all its tests done hips scored etc etc and has a tonne of rosettes and she bred 1 litter from her before neutering and kept 2 female pups and when the time came bred one litter from 1 of the bitches (the one with the better scores etc) 2/3 years later and did the same with that litter etc etc
She now has 5 neutered retriever bitches and 1 un-neutered pup all related all loopy loopy dogs the first bitch is VERY old now but I think having younger pups coming along every few years has kept her "puppyness" alive if you know what i mean :rolleyes:

scudzilla

Why does everybody just jump on someone when they ask a question about Breeding? The OP asked for advice on a healthy breeding age, instead of getting that he/she is just getting negativity.

We'll be breeding our boxer Brodi when she's about 3, Do we show her? No

Is she a great dog and example of the breed? In my eyes yes.

She'll only have 1 litter and will be fully health checked first

MissTiny

Thanks scudzilla, was a little scared and intimidated at first to be honest.:rolleyes: Wasn't expecting the kind of replies I got for this, my apologies if I made the wrong impression to anyone. I'm not looking to harm any dogs, quite the contrary, I love them more than most people..

Oddly enough, it was actually boxers that my aunt used to breed. Have an enormous fondness for them as a result

Will have to think about things for a while before making any decisions, but the kind advice very much helps. Thanks

lrushe

angelfire9 wrote: »

Not every home breeder is a puppy farmer it must be said
My best friend had an IKC registered golden retriever that had all its tests done hips scored etc etc and has a tonne of rosettes and she bred 1 litter from her before neutering and kept 2 female pups and when the time came bred one litter from 1 of the bitches (the one with the better scores etc) 2/3 years later and did the same with that litter etc etc
She now has 5 neutered retriever bitches and 1 un-neutered pup all related all loopy loopy dogs the first bitch is VERY old now but I think having younger pups coming along every few years has kept her "puppyness" alive if you know what i mean :rolleyes:

It's not the fact that the dogs are keep in a house instead of a kennel block, in fact pups brought up in a home environment are much better in my opinion. It is people who, with the best intentions sometimes or through niavity think that because they have a nice (in their eyes) dog they have the right to breed it. What your friend did is perfectly ok, she showed her dog, her dog made the grade to win it's classes, the dog was health tested etc. All these things are the minimum things people should before breeding imo.

babystrawberry

scudzilla wrote: »

Why does everybody just jump on someone when they ask a question about Breeding? The OP asked for advice on a healthy breeding age, instead of getting that he/she is just getting negativity.

We'll be breeding our boxer Brodi when she's about 3, Do we show her? No

Is she a great dog and example of the breed? In my eyes yes.

She'll only have 1 litter and will be fully health checked first

I think this is the problem with people who breed their dogs as they are good types for the breed 'in their eyes'.
I can safetly say that in my eyes my 2 dogs are the nicest looking dogs compared to other dogs.

To be honest OP, by all means get a little companion for your dog.

However the breeding thing (in my eyes) is a different story. Is your dog from good breeding stock, will you source a healthy 100% non related bitch (this can be harder than you think due as a lot of breeders do not pay as much attention to the breeding history anymore) will you have potential buyers for the pups?
Im sure you have the best of intentions but it annoys me when people want to breed dogs for the sake of it when there a plenty others looking for homes :mad:

andreac

scudzilla wrote: »

Why does everybody just jump on someone when they ask a question about Breeding? The OP asked for advice on a healthy breeding age, instead of getting that he/she is just getting negativity.

We'll be breeding our boxer Brodi when she's about 3, Do we show her? No

Is she a great dog and example of the breed? In my eyes yes.

She'll only have 1 litter and will be fully health checked first

Sorry but i dont agree with this unless you are breeding to keep a pup for yourself, are you?
Otherwise there is absolutely no need to breed her at all as there are tonnes of other boxers being sold.
Contrary what people think about bitches having to have at least one litter, this is not necessary at all and people need to realise this.

Have you had Brodi health tested, eg hip/elbow scored, heart tested and what ever other tests are relative to boxers?
How do you know she is a great example of the breed? A lot of owners think their dogs are fab examples of the breed when in fact they can have major faults which deems them un fit for breeding, so unless you can guarantee she doesnt, by having breed experts verifying this, then she should not be bred from.
Maybe you have done all this and had her health tested and proven as an excellent specimen by boxer experts, and if so then fair play to you.
But there are thousands of pedigree dogs being bred from uncessarily so please put a lot of thought into breeding your dog and if you want to keep one of her pups, then fine, but if you just want to breed her to sell all of her pups then please dont.

andreac

angelfire9 wrote: »

Not every home breeder is a puppy farmer it must be said
My best friend had an IKC registered golden retriever that had all its tests done hips scored etc etc and has a tonne of rosettes and she bred 1 litter from her before neutering and kept 2 female pups and when the time came bred one litter from 1 of the bitches (the one with the better scores etc) 2/3 years later and did the same with that litter etc etc
She now has 5 neutered retriever bitches and 1 un-neutered pup all related all loopy loopy dogs the first bitch is VERY old now but I think having younger pups coming along every few years has kept her "puppyness" alive if you know what i mean :rolleyes:

That is very different. She was breeding to keep on the lines and to keep a pup for herself.

Just to note, puppy farmers arent necessarily big bad men with hundreds of breeding bitches, then can be your ordinary home breeder who just breeds for money and only that, ones that breed designer dogs, fancy cross breeds and give them a stupid name and charge a fortune for them, who have no regard for health or what kind of homes they go to and so on.

scudzilla

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but i dont agree with this unless you are breeding to keep a pup for yourself, are you?
Otherwise there is absolutely no need to breed her at all as there are tonnes of other boxers being sold.
Contrary what people think about bitches having to have at least one litter, this is not necessary at all and people need to realise this.

Have you had Brodi health tested, eg hip/elbow scored, heart tested and what ever other tests are relative to boxers?
How do you know she is a great example of the breed? A lot of owners think their dogs are fab examples of the breed when in fact they can have major faults which deems them un fit for breeding, so unless you can guarantee she doesnt, by having breed experts verifying this, then she should not be bred from.
Maybe you have done all this and had her health tested and proven as an excellent specimen by boxer experts, and if so then fair play to you.
But there are thousands of pedigree dogs being bred from uncessarily so please put a lot of thought into breeding your dog and if you want to keep one of her pups, then fine, but if you just want to breed her to sell all of her pups then please dont.

We're not breeding her to make any money from it at all, we will be keeping a pup and 2 of our closest friends, who are both dog lovers, also want a pup, they think that Brodi is perfect and a great example of the breed, they even willing to wait 18/24 months for a pup. If i could ensure that she just had 3 pups then that would be great, unfortunately i can't.

Every person we meet on our walks say that she is a fantastic looking dog, every picture i put on my Facebook or in the pictures section here has people commenting how good she looks.

I've kept dogs all my life and i've NEVER known a dog with such a cool temperament as Brodi, and that's not just me saying it because she's my current dog. She never messed in the house, she never chewed anything, she is totally obedient (and we hardly trained her, just came naturally), She's amazing with all people and loves kids.

As for Health testing, we take her to the vets every 6 months for check ups, and all seems to be fine, about 3/4 months before we decide to breed her (probably aged 3/3.5) then we will have her fully health tested, and if there is the slightest problem then we won't go through with it.

If she does prove to be fit and healthy enough for breeding then she will have 1 litter and 1 litter only.

If there are any excess pups then all prospective buyers will be vetted, and if we don't like the look of them then we won't sell.

I honestly don't think there's more we can do.

angelfire9

lrushe wrote: »

It's not the fact that the dogs are keep in a house instead of a kennel block, in fact pups brought up in a home environment are much better in my opinion. It is people who, with the best intentions sometimes or through niavity think that because they have a nice (in their eyes) dog they have the right to breed it. What your friend did is perfectly ok, she showed her dog, her dog made the grade to win it's classes, the dog was health tested etc. All these things are the minimum things people should before breeding imo.

If that's the minimum what else would you recommend?

I would have thought she'd done more than alot of breeders do??

Meteoric

As regards to the OP, if you are interested in breeding for the betterment of the breed it is generally better to start with a bitch. The reason is it is much more likely that you will be able to use a really good father for her pups. As you can read in other threads responsible owners of stud dogs will only allow good matches to their stud dog. Much as we love our male dogs they are not generally the best available.
I own a male dog who does not have hip-scores, etc as he will never be a dad. He is an excellent example of the breed, has won best of breed at a championship show and is a sweetie. But he is not suitable as a stud dog for various reasons, mostly me not wanting to have to deal with the results of allowing him to be a stud, they get a lot more focused on physical relations once they have been at stud, what they have not had they don't miss.
It was the same with my previous dog, shown a fair bit, a few reserve green stars, but not good enough really to be a stud dog.
It is hard to get a good breeding bitch, is even harder to get a good stud dog from a breeder. Whatever you decide to do, do your research. Find out the different lines in your breed, assess the faults your dogs have and try improve on them. Talk to breeders who show.
As I've said before my aunt breeds labs, that's where mine come from, but if someone contacts her and the bitch is not suitable for breeding at all she tells people or if not suitable for her line tells them where they should go to other stud dog owners.
Check are there genetic tests that can be done on your breed and ensure they are done on at least the stud dog, preferably both.
For me, if my aunt decided not to continue breeding, because I love this family of Labs I'd get a female and do my research and pick the best dad I could to continue the family line but I'm hoping she does not stop any time soon because breeding responsibly is a whole lot of work and expense and only justifiable to me by wanting a dog from these lines for myself.
As long as she will produce such wonderful dogs I'm delighted to be blessed with the dogs that have enriched my life.

andreac

scudzilla wrote: »

We're not breeding her to make any money from it at all, we will be keeping a pup and 2 of our closest friends, who are both dog lovers, also want a pup, they think that Brodi is perfect and a great example of the breed, they even willing to wait 18/24 months for a pup. If i could ensure that she just had 3 pups then that would be great, unfortunately i can't.

Every person we meet on our walks say that she is a fantastic looking dog, every picture i put on my Facebook or in the pictures section here has people commenting how good she looks.

I've kept dogs all my life and i've NEVER known a dog with such a cool temperament as Brodi, and that's not just me saying it because she's my current dog. She never messed in the house, she never chewed anything, she is totally obedient (and we hardly trained her, just came naturally), She's amazing with all people and loves kids.

As for Health testing, we take her to the vets every 6 months for check ups, and all seems to be fine, about 3/4 months before we decide to breed her (probably aged 3/3.5) then we will have her fully health tested, and if there is the slightest problem then we won't go through with it.

If she does prove to be fit and healthy enough for breeding then she will have 1 litter and 1 litter only.

If there are any excess pups then all prospective buyers will be vetted, and if we don't like the look of them then we won't sell.

I honestly don't think there's more we can do.

Thats great and as i said, if you are breeding because you want to keep a pup yourself then that is ok, as long as she is fit for breeding.

So many people just think because they have a pedigree dog they should breed which is ridiculous because that couldnt be further from the truth.

Breeding is not for the faint hearted and can be very risky to both mother and pups. Ive seen the most experienced breeder lose a whole litter, the mother and sometimes even both, its heart breaking so it shouldnt be done unless you are very experienced and know the whole ins and outs of breeding.

angelfire9

andreac wrote: »

Thats great and as i said, if you are breeding because you want to keep a pup yourself then that is ok, as long as she is fit for breeding.

So many people just think because they have a pedigree dog they should breed which is ridiculous because that couldnt be further from the truth.

Breeding is not for the faint hearted and can be very risky to both mother and pups. Ive seen the most experienced breeder lose a whole litter, the mother and sometimes even both, its heart breaking so it shouldnt be done unless you are very experienced and know the whole ins and outs of breeding.

Very true
I probably should have mentioned that my friend is a vet :D:D

ISDW

angelfire9 wrote: »

Very true
I probably should have mentioned that my friend is a vet :D:D

Not commenting on your friend, but being a vet makes no difference in my experience. I used to use a vet who had a boxer bitch and was going to let her have one litter, wasn't going to do any of the genetic testing, had never shown her, but just wanted to breed her. The dog had real temperament issues as well. And this wasn't an old vet, this was a young vet in her late 20s and only a couple of years ago:(

angelfire9

ISDW wrote: »

Not commenting on your friend, but being a vet makes no difference in my experience. I used to use a vet who had a boxer bitch and was going to let her have one litter, wasn't going to do any of the genetic testing, had never shown her, but just wanted to breed her. The dog had real temperament issues as well. And this wasn't an old vet, this was a young vet in her late 20s and only a couple of years ago:(

Well I meant that as a Vet if GOD FORBID there was complications with the birth or if the bitch or pups got sick she would (i would hope) be able to deal with it alot quicker than a civilian

Being a VET does not mean automatic cop on

Just that medical knowledge can be helpful in a breeding situation

lrushe

angelfire9 wrote: »

If that's the minimum what else would you recommend?

I would have thought she'd done more than alot of breeders do??

Doing more than alot of breeders doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done.
In a working breed like your friend had I like to see some working titles on a dog too that would be the cherry on the cake for me but is something that is over looked by the average breeder. It's not just good enough that a dog looks a certain way they should also be fit for purpose and nothing is a better yard stick for that then some good old fashion work.

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

Doing more than alot of breeders doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done.
In a working breed like your friend had I like to see some working titles on a dog too that would be the cherry on the cake for me but is something that is over looked by the average breeder. It's not just good enough that a dog looks as certain way they should also be fit for purpose and nothing is a better yard stick for that then some good old fashion work.

Totally agree, I wouldn't bother showing my dogs here, as I do think a lot of it is the face on the end of the lead but if I ever did decide to breed, I would only use dogs that had proved themselves working. I've seen a lot of sibes here that may do well in the showring, or come from a long line of champions, but have never been worked in their lives, and going by their build, would really struggle.

angelfire9

lrushe wrote: »

Doing more than alot of breeders doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done.
In a working breed like your friend had I like to see some working titles on a dog too that would be the cherry on the cake for me but is something that is over looked by the average breeder. It's not just good enough that a dog looks a certain way they should also be fit for purpose and nothing is a better yard stick for that then some good old fashion work.

Sorry maybe I'm stupid (i'm a cat person after all)

What do you mean by "working titles"??

lrushe

angelfire9 wrote: »

Sorry maybe I'm stupid (i'm a cat person after all)

What do you mean by "working titles"??

Well when you show a dog in a conformation (show) ring you would get confirmation titles, Challenge Certs (CC's), Green Stars etc. to build your dog up to it's Championship. This basically means your dog looks like the breed it should be.
With a dog like a Retriever you can also enter Field Trials under the IKC where the dog would be tested in the field of retriving 'game' on land and water as they were originally bred to do. They can also partake in Working Tests like the IWS Club's Test and I know the Fermanagh Gundog Club do working tests also. This means your dog not only looks like the breed it's supposed to be but that it's also able to carry out the job that bred was originally developed to do.
This imo is a better all round example of any breed and something breeders should try to strive for.