Best Martial Art For Security/Self-Defence?

El Diablo 101

Hi guys,

Just asking a question or two to you guys as you have been doing martial arts for a while,

What martial art would you consider, in your opinion, to be the best martial art for people in the security trade (bouncer etc.) ?

What martial art would you consider best for self-defence on the street?

I ask both as security and self-defence have different aims.

Also, I know I may get some biased answers, and there is no 'right' answer, just opinions. Just throwing it out there.

Thanks

Furious-Dave

Forget about Martial Arts and Combat sports for self defence. They are only make believe. This stuff is the best you can get for use on the deadly street:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuEE_w&playnext=1&list=PL64F3A434819595C0

Seriously though I've never worked as a bouncer so won't answer you question regarding what is effective for it

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ok based solely on my own experience here.

(In no particular order)

Guys I've worked with who are/were very good trained in boxing (this will put you in court as a bouncer, but when the fur flies boxers excel).. Aikido (yes, really!) .. Judo & Jiu Jitsu (not Brazilian JJ) and Muay Thai/Kickboxing.

The danger in striking arts (to yourself) as a bouncer is to the man on the street they look violent and your liable to get a lot of witnesses say you beat someone up for nothing - this is based on years of personal experience.

Grappling arts look clean, ie they don't look violent and people actually feel your trying not to hurt someone - whilst putting very painful pressure on joints, threatening to strangle/choke or slam someone into the ground

Bujinkan

I worked for 8 years as a bouncer, rather than getting trained by a martial artist, I'd suggest getting trained by someone in MA with doorman experiance. There are also restaint and control courses run by good security companies.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bujinkan wrote: »

I worked for 8 years as a bouncer, rather than getting trained by a martial artist, I'd suggest getting trained by someone in MA with doorman experiance. There are also restaint and control courses run by good security companies.

I work with a lad who done Ninjutsu for a long time - is that close to what you do?.. Anyway, he's got great restraints.

He's also a Judo blackbelt so overall his control over someone would be pretty damned good.

El Diablo 101

In a place I used to work, there was a small guy who looked unassuming, who had black belts in two different martial arts, and working towards another one, who was the calmest, most cerebral person you could ever meet.

Then there were two guys who were there because they were big. They didn't study any martial art, weren't as calm as the other guy, and no disrespect to them, weren't as good security as he was.

Just on a side note, would kenpo be considered good for a self-defence method? I take your point of striking arts not being the best for security Makikomi.

Furious-Dave

I trained in American Kenpo on and off for almost 15 years. Now, I only got to green belt but I honestly believe that the MMA and knock-down Karate training that I did would be of more use to me in a fight than most of the stuff I learned in Kenpo. That's not to say that there aren't good fighters out there in the Kenpo world, but the training in full contact combat sports is more focused on a specific objective i.e. knocking the other guy out or submitting him as quickly as possible.

TrollHammaren

I've worked as a bouncer for nearly 5 years and have a 2nd dan in TKD, but have studied Judo and Jujutsu (German police style for 2 years and traditional Japanese for 2 years) for 4 years.

I'm 22, 5"7, and weigh about 68kg, so martial arts are absolutely vital for me, as I can't exactly overpower someone with my massive size and build.

I've found that TKD is more or less useless when things get hairy, as it's hard to kick in suit trousers and boots - plus, striking can get you in trouble.

The vast majority of the time I use Jujutsu techniques to restrain people, but I've been attacked on occasion and have thrown people with Judo techniques. I can definitely attest to their efficacy, as I've never failed to subdue or restrain a patron.

I can only speak for the martial arts I've practised, but I can say that Judo and Jujutsu are very effective for doorman.

TrollHammaren

Sorry, I forgot to answer the bit about self-defence on the street.

I found TKD useful when I was a teenager - I grew up in Ballyfermot and was a bit of a rocker, so I used to get picked on.

Nowadays, I've only ever had to use martial arts outside of work and training a few times, and each time it was Jujutsu I used. The best example was when I was attacked on Westmorland Street in Dublin on the way home from work. I was stupid enough to take out money from an ATM (4 in the morning on a Saturday night in Dublin City Centre - not clever) and I was attacked by two thugs. The Jujutsu technique worked, and I'm sure I could have used to Judo to take one of them down and run, but I'm not sure whether TKD would have done me any good in that situation.

Raze_them_all

Graham Cool Tear wrote: »

Ok based solely on my own experience here.

(In no particular order)

Guys I've worked with who are/were very good trained in boxing (this will put you in court as a bouncer, but when the fur flies boxers excel).. Aikido (yes, really!) .. Judo & Jiu Jitsu (not Brazilian JJ) and Muay Thai/Kickboxing.

The danger in striking arts (to yourself) as a bouncer is to the man on the street they look violent and your liable to get a lot of witnesses say you beat someone up for nothing - this is based on years of personal experience.

Grappling arts look clean, ie they don't look violent and people actually feel your trying not to hurt someone - whilst putting very painful pressure on joints, threatening to strangle/choke or slam someone into the ground

completely agree about the grappling but it always comes with the risk of ending up on the floor which in my experience is never a good place to be if you're on a door

TrollHammaren

Raze_them_all wrote: »

completely agree about the grappling but it always comes with the risk of ending up on the floor which in my experience is never a good place to be if you're on a door

Very true, but a lot of fights end up on the floor, anyway. I know you don't fight disorderly patrons at work, but when you're explicitly attacked it becomes a fight until you can restrain him, and that can very often lead to you grappling on the ground, and I would rather be a judoka than a boxer on the ground.

DeVore

Theres a reason almost all MMA fighters train in Muay Thai (boxing and striking) on their feet and BJJ on the ground. They have been shown to be extremely effective in street fighting. Throw (no pun!) some Judo in there and you're gold.

/2c

DeV.

Raze_them_all

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Very true, but a lot of fights end up on the floor, anyway. I know you don't fight disorderly patrons at work, but when you're explicitly attacked it becomes a fight until you can restrain him, and that can very often lead to you grappling on the ground, and I would rather be a judoka than a boxer on the ground.

Eh i started working on doors a few years ago. I didn't say it's no good I'd rather hit someone and end it quick than have someones mate kick me in the head while I'm on the ground with someone which has happened before. Thankfully I've only ever had to hit one person.

TrollHammaren

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Eh i started working on doors a few years ago. I didn't say it's no good I'd rather hit someone and end it quick than have someones mate kick me in the head while I'm on the ground with someone which has happened before. Thankfully I've only ever had to hit one person.

Of course I agree with you there. I wouldn't want to hit anyone, but I certainly wouldn't want to be kicked in the head if I end up on the ground, either. I'd just prefer to be a Judoka if I ended up on the ground than a boxer.

Raze_them_all

Completely agree though giving the choice I'd rather be a judoka and just put them on the floor.

Op there is no perfect martial art for on the doors. Common sense is the best thing you can have.

DeVore

I think for a doorman, you certainly DONT want the fight to go to the ground but if you always get what you want in fights, dont bother with any MA, you dont need it!!!


Fights have a habit of being unpredictable and also someone getting punched standing up will decidedly WANT the fight to go to the ground! Its very hard to stop that, particularly if you havent studied Judo/BJJ.

So like it or not, thats just where you might end up and the best way of not getting a kick in the head from his mate is to end it super fast!

DeV.

DeVore

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Completely agree though giving the choice I'd rather be a judoka and just put them on the floor.

Op there is no perfect martial art for on the doors. Common sense is the best thing you can have.

Indeed... the best doorman I've seen is my mate Dave G. I've seen him defuse situations with a free coffee (cos, in his own words "why knock the guy out for the price of a cup of coffee").... I've seen him get rid of a bunch of idiot UK stag nighters from Odessa by telling them it was a gay bar (! :eek: lol) and finally hitting one guy so fast, so hard that he was out cold before his mates could react and he says "lads, now, it doesnt have to go down like this" with their biggest and bravest on the floor, curiously the lads concurred.

While MA is definitely going to be a help if it all goes bad.... by far your best weapon is between your ears.

DeV.

arybvtcw0eolkf

DeVore wrote: »

by far your best weapon is between your ears.
DeV.

Aye, ye olde worlde Ballyfermot kiss

arybvtcw0eolkf

DeVore wrote: »

Theres a reason almost all MMA fighters train in Muay Thai (boxing and striking) on their feet and BJJ on the ground. They have been shown to be extremely effective in street fighting. Throw (no pun!) some Judo in there and you're gold.

/2c

DeV.

IMO BJJ alone wouldn't be very good for someone working in the security business.

Now a skilled MMA fighter would be a formidable opponent on the street or when the fur hits the fan in a row.

If I'd to choose two styles to train in for door work it would be a striking art boxing/M.T. or Kickboxing & Judo/Jiu jitsu or something is effective joint locks (control & restraint kind of thing) - and as I've said earlier, only going on personal experience with working with lads skilled in these styles - Ninjitsu or Aikido.

shinobi academy

I would say acting class or a class in assertiveness! Most of door work is talking and giving people an easy exit without out loosing face. And if that all fails then you got to be able to back it up, so grappling arts, mma, ninjutsu for locks and holds!

Pride Fighter

Just on a side note, would kenpo be considered good for a self-defence method?

I do kenpo, and I have seen people practice in other styles live and on video's. Kenpo is similar enough to Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and Ninjitsu in its application of self-defence techniques. I'd say all these would be good for self-defence.

I have done some MMA. What I'd say is that it will take you the best part of 3-4 years to understand how to practically implement kenpo techniques, and I'd say the same is true of the other arts I mentioned above. With MMA, you can get adept at grappling (wrestling, judo, gi and no-gi brazillian jiu-jitsu) in a shorter time than traditional martial arts.

cowzerp

Boxing all the way, from a protection point of view as multiple attackers can be dealt with unlike any grappling art or when ya start throwing kicks your getting in trouble balance wise etc, 1 on 1 MMA would be great as it covers everything, Grappling arts also are great in 1 on 1 situation which are rare in security work.

From a legal point of view restraint is best but when defending yourself you want them outta there, them as it's often more than 1.

FTA69

I'd agree with a lot of what other posters have written here already. Put simply for learning how to fight or handle yourself in the event of a fight I would recommend boxing; a few months dedication to that will make the world of difference in your ability.

That having been said, boxing is non-applicable in the majority of situations you'll be dealing with as a bouncer. I work as a doorman here in Cork and to be honest if my first reaction to a scuffle breaking out was to pan someone out (and probably break your hand in the process) on the dancefloor I wouldn't have a job for very long. As Makikomi pointed out, there will be occasions when the sh*t hits the fan and you will end up scrapping, especially when dealing with a large group of game fellas doing their best to puck the head off you and your colleagues. Similarly you could be forced to deal with a fight outside of your premises and suddenly end up becoming the focus of ire. In such situations a bit of striking training is invaluable.

However, often in your job you'll be dealing with ejections, the vast majority of which should be peaceful walkouts. I've spent up to 15 minutes talking with someone getting them to leave peacefully, better that than aggravate them and have to drag them out in the presence of other patrons. You'll find the owner won't be too chuffed with you if this is a regular occurrence.

When dealing with forcible ejections or restraints a bit of grappling training will go a long way. I'm very new to grappling (two and a half months with a months lay off due to a broken nose) but I've already found it a great help. I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and also a bit of submission wrestling from stand-up. I would disagree with Makikomi when he says BJJ wouldn't be that handy, but I would stress the fact you need to practice something that encompasses take-downs etc because it's unlikely you and your opponent will slap hands and agree to start off from the knees! For this a bit of sub-wrestling or Judo would be great.

All in all, train the sh*t out of everything you can!

arybvtcw0eolkf

FTA69 wrote: »

However, often in your job you'll be dealing with ejections, the vast majority of which should be peaceful walkouts. I've spent up to 15 minutes talking with someone getting them to leave peacefully, better that than aggravate them and have to drag them out in the presence of other patrons. You'll find the owner won't be too chuffed with you if this is a regular occurrence.

The beauty in Judo in this circumstance is while I'm walking someone out, and maybe having a natter & keeping them calm - I've grips (or close to) for a quick take down.

Sounds like you've a good head on your shoulders, stay safe this weekend.

TrollHammaren

I agree with pretty much everyone who posted before me. I usually try to figure out what people respond to and exploit that before escalating to forcefully removing them. The only issue is that if two lads are lumping the head off each other you basically have to just jump right in there (having called for backup, of course), as your attempts at negotiation will fall on deaf, probably swollen ears.

When I'm attacked, a good Judo throw or Jujutsu joint lock will usually buy you enough time to get on the radio for backup, but I've had a few nasty incidents in which, unbeknowst to me, my earpiece became dislodged from my radio. Fun times!

arybvtcw0eolkf

TrollHammaren wrote: »

but I've had a few nasty incidents in which, unbeknowst to me, my earpiece became dislodged from my radio weapon. Fun times!

Fixed

Bujinkan

Graham Cool Tear wrote: »

I work with a lad who done Ninjutsu for a long time - is that close to what you do?.. Anyway, he's got great restraints.

He's also a Judo blackbelt so overall his control over someone would be pretty damned good.

Yep the same art although Ninjutsu makes up only a small part of the Bujinkan. 3 of the schools thought within the Bujnkan are jujutsu schools, so there is a lot of restraint and control techniques within it. I was also one of the trainers on the restraint and control course run by the company I worked for, so life was much easier when everyone you worked with had the same basic skill set/technique, it made ejecting people much easier when everyone knew how to lock and control someone!

Worked myself with a couple of Judoka, very handy lads to have about when the s**t hit the fan

HammerHeadGym

May as well chime in here. I've been a doorman for 14 years. My Martial arts experience, includes; Kenpo, Traditional Ju Jutsu, Muay Thai and (not nearly enough) Judo & BJJ. I'm also the bouncer Dev referenced.

Firstly, I'll adress the physical end of things. As many other have already pointed out, hitting someone is ugly. It draws a lot of attention from people (read witnesses) and is very hard to explain in court. Remember most people will not witness the build up, the threats etc. They'll just see you deck someone and be more than happy to give a bouncer payback, for that time they didn't get in somewhere. Hitting someone is always a last resort. Having said that, you want to able to knock a guy out if you have to.
I learned a lot of traditional Jits from a bouncer who did some side work as a bodyguard. The methods he used to teach were great. ANd definitely surpassed what most traditional schools had to offer. When you take a guy down in a situation it is very easy to explain that in court. Also, it looks passive.
The only part of ground fighting I found useful was standing back up as quickly as possible. Having said that I went to the ground less than a dozen times in 14 years.

So, if I had to build the perfect doorman, I would make him with 60% Judo, 30% Muay Thai, 10% BJJ/MMA. Just the confidence that comes with knowing you'll probably not come out the worst in any given situation is enough to disarm most 'hard men'.

Now, despite having all the physical training in the world, nothing will help you like experience. It's knowing what a certain type of person needs to hear is what is going to simmer a situation before it's had a chance to boil.
For instance, I always leave a way out for someone. Always. If I refuse a tough guy in front of his mates, he needs to save face. He can call my ma a whore, and if I do nothing about it,' ha, ha, that bouncer wouldn't do anything about thing when i called his ma a whore.' Fine by me, situation defused.
There are going to be dozens of these types of things that realistically have to be experienced, preferably in the presence of an experienced doorman.
ANyway, thats my 2 cents.

Darren Mahony

...have to be considered two completely different things. I am a Kenpo Instructor so I am a little biased toward my Art but thats natural. I would expect everyone else to be the same for their Art and rightly so; they are doing something they love.
So Kenpo IMHO is an excellent Martial Art for self defense. It is the essence of what we do, but as someone pointed it does take a few years to become proficient in it. However as with any Martial Art it is all about finding a good teacher. I am lucky because I have a great one but there as just as many bad ones as good ones out there. How will you tell- at first you probably won't but after a while the cracks will start to show. The problem I've seen is by that time a lot of people will resign themselves to the fact that they are stuck with this guy after training with him for a few years or whatever so they decide to just keep going. If you would like to try Kenpo I can try and point you toward a good club.
Now doorwork. I was a doorman myself for nearly 10 years and still train doormen, security guards, event security etc today. I use some Kenpo joint locks in what I do and also a lot of the self defense stuff too but I don't take it as far as we teach for self defense. Learning to strike is very useful but it can land you in court or in the Garda Station so should be avoided if possible,but hey if you have no choice and gotta take someone out then a good hard strike will do the job. I don't teach any of the air and blood chokes,limb destruction and bone breaking techniques we learn in Kenpo SD in my security class but I do use lots of Kenpo Principles like Zone defense theory, height width and depth control, environmental awareness etc etc. So what I'm saying is Kenpo is great for SD and Kenpo Principles along with some of the more passive techniques and theory's are great for security.
Sorry about the long winded answer but I hoped it helped some.

PS other hands on stuff I teach for security are bits and pieces I've picked up along the way and apply them using Kenpo logic but as someone above pointed out, the best weapon a good doorman can have is a good head on his shoulders and an ability to remain calm.

Baggio...

On forums you'll always get conflicting views, as most people do different "arts".

So, before you decide to take up anything, I'd highly recommend you grab a wee book (or DVD) called the "Three Second Fighter" by a guy called Geoff Thompson (prolly get it on ebay for a few quid). He was a veteran doorman, Boxer, and Martial Artist - who has had numerous real encounters.

The book or DVD will describe the problems about fighting on the street, and will also tell you what you're going to need in order increase your chances of success in dealing with that type of violence. After that, I think you'll have a very good idea about what type of training you should be doing imo.

Good Luck with it!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Baggio... wrote: »

On forums you'll always get conflicting views, as most people do different "arts".

So, before you decide to take up anything, I'd highly recommend you grab a wee book (or DVD) called the "Three Second Fighter" by a guy called Geoff Thompson (prolly get it on ebay for a few quid). He was a veteran doorman, Boxer, and Martial Artist - who has had numerous real encounters.

The book or DVD will describe the problems about fighting on the street, and will also tell you what you're going to need in order increase your chances of success in dealing with that type of violence. After that, I think you'll have a very good idea about what type of training you should be doing imo.

Good Luck with it!

No real conflicting view's so far, as most of us in the discussion are experienced doorstaff and have all more or less said the same thing.

Striking, while its essential - looks ugly, violent. It shocks onlookers, and will get you into trouble - use as a last resort.

Grappling/restraint methods - look passive, look 'clean' and to the layman looks like your trying your best not to hurt someone (while applying a very painful joint lock or strangle/choke).. I'd add to this, if/when the guards arrive, to the guard it appears as though you'd had the situation under control and acted completely lawful..

Nothing worse, and its happened to us all I'm sure, than the guards arriving to find paramedics working on a lad you've just clocked and witnesses galore.

I read Geoff Thomson's book years ago, and unless its be revised its way out of date and comes from a time when it was ok to go taking the initiative and beat the crap out of someone, but these days you've got to be aware of litigation, CCTV and witness with camera phones - its a hell of a thing to stand there waiting for it to go off & know that you can't take the initiative and bring the fight to an aggressor, because sometimes you'll get the guy/guys who are not walking about without a row.

So those 'win or lose' three seconds are have changed somewhat.

yomchi

Grappling/restraint methods - look passive, look 'clean' and to the layman looks like your trying your best not to hurt someone (while applying a very painful joint lock or strangle/choke).. I'd add to this, if/when the guards arrive, to the guard it appears as though you'd had the situation under control and acted completely lawful..

What if the person pulls a knife or broken bottle etc? Or what if while you're trying to wrap him up his mate/s get stuck into you?

In some cases it's litigation or life.

Tried by 12 than carried by 6 and all that..

arybvtcw0eolkf

yomchi wrote: »

What if the person pulls a knife or broken bottle etc? Or what if while you're trying to wrap him up his mate/s get stuck into you?

Tough.

Twice I've been in a knife fight - first time I took the guy down with some Judo, then G&P'd the fvcker back to the stone age - he made an alligation of assault against me. This was a post officer robbery in 2006.

Second was outside The Mez in Templebar, I got the scumbags back & RNC'd him and my mate kicked him straight into the nuts - despite the fact the guy dropped his knife where he fell, we (myself and the other lad) were arrested.

I thought I'd told you this before?.. I'd done knife defence seminar's before these incidents - weren't worth a tinkers fart to me tbh.

Baggio...

Graham Cool Tear wrote: »

So those 'win or lose' three seconds are have changed somewhat.

Not really imo. I don't remember Geoff's book telling people to go off and attack people in the way you described. It's more to be used only as a "last resort", and only if you can't get away or talk it down. Remember he's using "the fence" which looks passive on CCTV and to onlookers, and he will be using dialog to tell the person to "back off", etc. How will that look to 3rd party witnesses? Pretty damn good, especially if the other fellah is pissed up, and going to try to hurt you. What the cameras, phones and witnesses will see is that you had your hands up in a passive way. And you asked the guy to leave you alone and that you didn't want any trouble (which is the truth anyway).

Also, Geoff's stuff is a good starting point, and a great entry to that type of "self-protection/Security work" that the OP is after. There's more up to date stuff of course. But better to learn how to walk before learning how to run, etc.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Baggio I'm not disagreeing with you - I read the book, like I said it was a long time ago and really enjoyed it and have taken (and used) a lot from it.

When I read it, it was at a time when we didn't have CCTV everywhere - no one had mobile phones and even some of the garda stations closed at 11 at night, so the message at the time, and from the book was attack, attack, attack and a fight was won or lost in the first three seconds.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to order it from Amazon shortly - damn boards.ie I'm always chasing up stuff and costing me a fortune!.

yomchi

Graham Cool Tear wrote: »

Tough.

Twice I've been in a knife fight - first time I took the guy down with some Judo, then G&P'd the fvcker back to the stone age - he made an alligation of assault against me. This was a post officer robbery in 2006.

Second was outside The Mez in Templebar, I got the scumbags back & RNC'd him and my mate kicked him straight into the nuts - despite the fact the guy dropped his knife where he fell, we (myself and the other lad) were arrested.

I thought I'd told you this before?.. I'd done knife defence seminar's before these incidents - weren't worth a tinkers fart to me tbh.

I'm not arguing with you mate, not sure why the head on response. As for knife defence, not one 'system' has the answers to any of it. Some have better options that's about it. 99% of what's out there is sh1te.

My point was about the potential hazards of locking someone up, something that some of the Gardaí that train with me complain about all the time.

That's my input, i'm out.

arybvtcw0eolkf

yomchi wrote: »

I
That's my input, i'm out.

Your barred

Sorry if I sounded like I went at you, its the worse of a discussion forum.. I'm told I always come across grumpy in discussions, then on the door I'm told I'm "really nice" :P

FTA69

I'd done knife defence seminar's before these incidents - weren't worth a tinkers fart to me tbh.

I'd be very, very wary of things like that. A common drill many self-defense types refer to involves giving someone a whiteboard marker and telling them to attack as if they were wielding a knife. The inevitable result is that you'll be covered in ink, regardless of the "knife defense" you've been learning or how good you are at it. Had this been a real situation you could be dead, or at the very least requiring hundreds of stitches and years of physio due to the fact your tendons will be hanging out of your hands and arms. The best knife defense is to get the f*ck out of Dodge to be honest.

One of my grievances with seminars like the above (and I suppose it could apply to martial arts in general) is that in some cases it can give people a false sense of security. The fact is that if you are fighting someone with a knife there is a very good chance you're going to get seriously injured, and if you're fighting multiple opponents alone you are practically guaranteed a hiding.

HHG,

For instance, I always leave a way out for someone. Always. If I refuse a tough guy in front of his mates, he needs to save face. He can call my ma a whore, and if I do nothing about it,' ha, ha, that bouncer wouldn't do anything about thing when i called his ma a whore.' Fine by me, situation defused.
There are going to be dozens of these types of things that realistically have to be experienced, preferably in the presence of an experienced doorman.

This is a great point, and one it took me a while to realise at the very start. The fact that some doormen have yet to realise is that being refused from a nightclub, being given a warning in front of your friends etc is potentially a very humiliating experience for someone. If you try and intimidate someone or get over-forceful in your actions or words there is a good chance you will provoke them into an agressive reaction because they will feel they'll have no other choice.

For instance last week I refused two men from my own door due to the head of security telling me to over the radio. After a brief discussion whereupon I was called everything under the sun one of them positioned himself about 15 feet away and proceeded to stare at me agressively for about 10 minutes (no exaggeration). My solution? Ignore the f*cker. Because one word or glance at him would have immediately led to him barreling over and starting a scrap in front of a queue full of customers. Eventually he p*ssed off. Situation averted and I can get on with my job.

Dyr

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd be very, very wary of things like that. A common drill many self-defense types refer to involves giving someone a whiteboard marker and telling them to attack as if they were wielding a knife.
HHG

Is the guy with the marker okay with the defender headbutting him/bouncing a fistful of coins off his face/smashing him into a wall etc?

If he isn't then that drill is fairly pointless.

Doug Cartel

Bambi wrote: »

Is the guy with the marker okay with the defender headbutting him/bouncing a fistful of coins off his face/smashing him into a wall etc?

If he isn't then that drill is fairly pointless.

As I understand it, this drill is usually used to make people see the light and realise how easy it is to get cut. I don't think it's designed to actually teach you what to do.

FTA69

Bambi wrote: »

Is the guy with the marker okay with the defender headbutting him/bouncing a fistful of coins off his face/smashing him into a wall etc?

If he isn't then that drill is fairly pointless.

Headbutt a fella swinging a knife at you? No thanks. It's a good drill, because it shows that attempting wrist-locks etc on someone with a blade will more thank likely lead to disaster.

Dyr

FTA69 wrote: »

Headbutt a fella swinging a knife at you? No thanks

http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=118

Watch the last 20 seconds.

There used to be a video up on youtube of a fella holding a junkie in the classic wrist lock position outside of a dublin pub, the junkie had a stanley knife. I doubt the guy ever seen a wristlock in his life but he wound up in that grip. Someone should have told him that it wouldn't work

TrollHammaren

I've never had a proper knife pulled on me at work but I've had a broken bottle pulled on me a few times, and I had a Stanley blade pulled on me on the street (read: Ballyfermot!)

I'm not exactly a skilled martial artist (except for in TKD, which is useless against a sharp edge), but even if I was I highly doubt I could defend against a knife without suffering serious injuries. Each time I was attacked with a glass bottle it was a case of putting a buffer between us and shutting the door. The only exception to that was another time when I was lucky enough to be a few steps up on a flight of stairs, so when he pulled the broken bottle I was able to give him a good thrust kick and pin him when he went down.

And yeah, Doug is right, the marker-knife thing is basically to show you that's it's virtually impossible to head straight on to a guy who's trying to slash you you.

DeVore

Graham Cool Tear wrote: »

Your barred

Sorry if I sounded like I went at you, its the worse of a discussion forum.. I'm told I always come across grumpy in discussions, then on the door I'm told I'm "really nice" :P

Could be that scary guy with the swastika avatar you use occasionally.... might have something to do with it.... you know.... um, just sayin'

DeV.

FTA69

Bambi wrote: »

http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=118

Watch the last 20 seconds.

There used to be a video up on youtube of a fella holding a junkie in the classic wrist lock position outside of a dublin pub, the junkie had a stanley knife. I doubt the guy ever seen a wristlock in his life but he wound up in that grip. Someone should have told him that it wouldn't work

My spoof sense is tingling. I'll tell you what buddy: you're right. Go spend $70 on that video, watch it and no doubt you'll be a real life ninja in no time capable of defending against someone trying to slash you open with a knife.

TH,

Each time I was attacked with a glass bottle it was a case of putting a buffer between us and shutting the door. The only exception to that was another time when I was lucky enough to be a few steps up on a flight of stairs, so when he pulled the broken bottle I was able to give him a good thrust kick and pin him when he went down.

Never had to defend against an attack in work from either thankfully. I've been hit with a naggin once outside of work which only led to a massive lump thank God. I've been in the middle of rows in work where people were trying to hit each other (not me) with bottles alright though, one incident involving me grabbing the offender in an RNC from behind which led to him dropping the weapon.

HammerHeadGym

Graham Cool Tear wrote: »

Aye, ye olde worlde Ballyfermot kiss

I prefer the term, Cabra mind-meld.

'my mind, to your mind' Uzzzz

TrollHammaren

FTA69 wrote: »

I've been in the middle of rows in work where people were trying to hit each other (not me) with bottles alright though, one incident involving me grabbing the offender in an RNC from behind which led to him dropping the weapon.

I think Makikomi mentioned using RNCs earlier, which seems weird to me, as we've been heavily advised against the use of chokes. I asked about this, and the guy who trained us at the FETAC course said that a few years ago (and I have no proof that this happened) a guy was being taken out of a nightclub in a RNC but the doorman fell and yer man in the choke died as a result. Could be a bit of a fib, but he was saying that you're not likely to get away with a choke in court.

It's easier said than done, and I've thankfully never had to do this, but I'd sooner go for a full nelson, or a Jujutsu move we were taught in which you grab the arm with one hand and the forehead with the other.

FTA69

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I think Makikomi mentioned using RNCs earlier, which seems weird to me, as we've been heavily advised against the use of chokes. I asked about this, and the guy who trained us at the FETAC course said that a few years ago (and I have no proof that this happened) a guy was being taken out of a nightclub in a RNC but the doorman fell and yer man in the choke died as a result. Could be a bit of a fib, but he was saying that you're not likely to get away with a choke in court.

It's easier said than done, and I've thankfully never had to do this, but I'd sooner go for a full nelson, or a Jujutsu move we were taught in which you grab the arm with one hand and the forehead with the other.

In fairness to Makikomi he said he used it outside of work. I'd never go with chokes either usually, that having been said when people start wielding bottles that's a different kettle of fish to be honest. (That and your man involved was a notorious sh*thead with a repuatation for violence.)

I never heard of the incident you're describing above but perhaps the most famous incident like that happened down here in Cork when a group of bouncers restrained a fella who died as a result of it. From what I heard they knelt on his chest which caused him to suffocate, things like that should be avoided at all costs. Chokes and whatnot as well shouldn't ever be used really for your average scrap, as you pointed out there are much better ways to restrain someone e.g. a hold called the cradle which is like a half nelson.

Dyr

FTA69 wrote: »

My spoof sense is tingling. I'll tell you what buddy: you're right. Go spend $70 on that video, watch it and no doubt you'll be a real life ninja in no time capable of defending against someone trying to slash you open with a knife.

Maybe get your spoof sense checked so and check your friend list while you're at it, I'm not your buddy. If you don't want to use headbutts against a knife that's your business. I'm just showing you someone doing it in real time. If you're using your hands to control an arm then your head and knees are striking options.

Go spend $70 on that video, watch it and no doubt you'll be a real life ninja in no time capable of defending against someone trying to slash you open with a knife.

Don't have to. I trained with the guy in that video years ago so I'm already a ninja.

arybvtcw0eolkf

DeVore wrote: »

Could be that scary guy with the swastika avatar you use occasionally.... might have something to do with it.... you know.... um, just sayin'

DeV.

Reported for personal abuse

Thats actually me in that avatar!.

Re. Rear Naked Chokes - affectionately known as 'sleepers', my preferred method of persuasion & compliance :pac:

HammerHeadGym

I have to say, that I prefer the RNC as my number one, take a guy out move. Thats out of the pub, rather than in the mafia sense. It's safest for me because his limbs have no power in the direction I am relative to him, It's safest for him because he can be steered clear of any obstacles and it's safest for the other customers, because He can't reach anyone else. Much more dignified than carrying a thrashing fool out by one arm. And of course if he goes nuts you can drop him.
In fact I have taken so many guys out in the rnc, that I am a litle pissed off I never got some sort of 'sandman' type nickname.

In regards to the guy being killed by an rnc, sounds like bollox, it works by cutting off blood at either side of the neck, it takes a good while to kill someone with it, it is impossible for it to happen suddenly.

ANd finally in regards to the spat between Bambi and FTA, in my experience, everything works some of the time. I'm not saying a headbutt is a good idea, but if there's a knife already in play and you have the chance....