People need to realise that renting a property is a business decision like any other

Ortiz

If I did up the property I could command a higher rent thus excluding those people as possible tenants though. Their financial situation is a core element of this argument.

I completely agree that the law should be adhered to as in if there are problems throughout the tenancy with things like heating, water supply etc. they should be resolved asap.

However if a tenant is willing to rent a property in its current state how can you have any sympathy for them whatsoever?

BostonB

Darlughda wrote: »

How you don't understand how it is wrong to take advantage of people who are poor amazes me.

Desperate people are forced to live in this kind of low quality hole, yet you would not dream of living there yourself, but have no moral qualms about squeezing the last penny out of people with little other choice.

The alternative to making money, in order to stay in business, is to be a charity. But even charities needs money. They just don't get it from the same sources. If the state provided housing, then people would have a choice. of course someone would still have to pay for running and maintenance of the state housing. Of course the state needs to make money, or it goes broke.

You can't get away that its all about money at the end of the day. Other models have not worked. we may not like it, but thats our reality.

Darlughda

Right I am just going to clarify exactly what I mean here.

Housing is a basic human need. The is a huge amount of people in this country at the moment in need of housing.

People who go into the business of renting out their property have a responsibility not to take advantage of people just for the sake of profit.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit from renting out property, but there is when they are taking advantage of people.

Faolchu

Darlughda wrote: »

People who go into the business of renting out their property have a responsibility not to take advantage of people just for the sake of profit.
.

actually they dont. they have a responsibility to adhere to the law. register the property, pay taxes and meet certain minimum standards.

the same could be said about an item that takes €5 to make but €50 to purchase. the primary goal of a business is to make a profit.

BostonB

Darlughda wrote: »

...
There is nothing wrong with making a profit from renting out property, but there is when they are taking advantage of people.

Is that any different from one shop charging 40% more for milk than a shop on the other side of the street.

Darlughda

Faolchu wrote: »

actually they dont. they have a responsibility to adhere to the law. register the property, pay taxes and meet certain minimum standards.

the same could be said about an item that takes €5 to make but €50 to purchase. the primary goal of a business is to make a profit.

Well, this is why I started the thread.

There is a moral responsibility there when you are dealing with people's basic need for shelter.

But, its far too easy for someone to take advantage of others when they can tell themselves 'well, I'm adhering to the basics of the law...so I'm perfectly entitled to grab as much money as I can out of people'.

professore

I think the OP's point is one of society vs economy.

From a purely economic perspective, if is legal to shoot people in the street in front of their families, and you can make a profit from it by selling them for soap, then it's perfectly fine to do so.

There are always plenty of people out there who will do anything for money.

(I'm not saying all LL's or businesspeople are like this before people jump down my throat - I'm a businessperson!)

That's where regulation comes in.

Ortiz

Darlughda wrote: »

Well, this is why I started the thread.

There is a moral responsibility there when you are dealing with people's basic need for shelter.

But, its far too easy for someone to take advantage of others when they can tell themselves 'well, I'm adhering to the basics of the law...so I'm perfectly entitled to grab as much money as I can out of people'.

Damn right ya gotta look after #1 which is yourself. Get the absolute maximum you can for your property.

As long as you're not putting the tenants health at risk and are adhering to the law then I think you should try and get the absolute most that you can.

I'd always fix things for my tenants asap and I'd also furnish the property quite nicely and look after it in between tenancies. I would never neglect my tenants, would always be contactable by phone, would try to have a good relationship with them and supply them with what they need - All with the goal to ensure they are happy so they keep paying their rent.

You seem to think that tenants are hard done by when they rent a 'dump' which is wrong.

Like I said before if the landlord refurbished this dump and furnished it beautifully then he could command a higher rent thus excluding the tenants in question

Darlughda

Ortiz wrote: »

As long as you're not putting the tenants health at risk and are adhering to the law then I think you should try and get the absolute most that you can.

I'd always fix things for my tenants asap and I'd also furnish the property quite nicely and look after it in between tenancies. I would never neglect my tenants, would always be contactable by phone, would try to have a good relationship with them and supply them with what they need - All with the goal to ensure they are happy so they keep paying their rent.

Oh I doubt that is true Ortiz, as you have already stated:

Ortiz wrote: »

Design a bedsit with a dirty brown flowery carpet, a sea shell 50 year old 3 piece suite, one single bed and no kitchen if you like. If a tenant is willing to take it in that state good enough for em!

Ortiz wrote: »

Surely the tenants can make their own decisions? If I want to offer my dump for rent and someone is willing to rent it WHY is it wrong that I let them??!!

So, you think that it is okay to have a dump to rent out, and doing it up means you should charge your tenants a higher rent?

Unless, you are talking luxury, exclusive furnishings, I think it is just plain wrong of you not to have a place done up nicely for lower income tenants. They can be decent long term tenants you know.

In fact you seem to be a prime example of somebody who would just follow the bare minimum of the law, so you can justify to yourself taking advantage of poorer people and scraping what you can out of them:

Ortiz wrote: »

However if a tenant is willing to rent a property in its current state how can you have any sympathy for them whatsoever?

Ortiz wrote: »

Darlughda it's ALL about making money. Take what you can get and as long as you're adhering to the law you can do what you like

BostonB

Darlughda wrote: »

Well, this is why I started the thread.

There is a moral responsibility there when you are dealing with people's basic need for shelter. ...

Thats the states responsibility. or societies.

But it doesn't make any sense to say its the LL's.

If there were no landlord serving this market where would these tenants go?

BostonB

I think you think theres loads of money in this. Many LL are making a loss with their rentals because of their mortgages and paying the shortfall from their wages, if indeed they are working, they maybe out of a job themselves.

Even if theres no mortgage, the costs of redoing a house, and furnishings everytime, can mean theres no point in doing when you consider the tax, and perhaps theres a few or many months with no rent.

Faolchu

Darlughda wrote: »

There is a moral responsibility there when you are dealing with people's basic need for shelter. .

I think you're way too idealistic and fear that when you fall to earth the bump will hurt. the only possible moral responsibility would be to provide running clean water, hot and cold, wash and toilet facilities, some form of heating & light, security in the sense that the doors/windows can be locked, and free from pest infestation. what else should teh landlord be morally responsible to provide? SKY Digatil? a 60 inch plasma with XBOX or PS3? an individuals financial position is not the responsibility of teh LL.

i could say that the person that has no skills and is unemployable has no morals because they have allowed themselves become a burden on the rest of us and our taxes go to support them.

Darlughda wrote: »

But, its far too easy for someone to take advantage of others when they can tell themselves 'well, I'm adhering to the basics of the law...so I'm perfectly entitled to grab as much money as I can out of people'.

well you see that's the whole priciple of the free world, once you adhere to the law then you are fully entitled to make a profit. also they will only get what people are willing to pay

Ortiz

Darlughda wrote: »

Oh I doubt that is true Ortiz, as you have already stated:


So, you think that it is okay to have a dump to rent out, and doing it up means you should charge your tenants a higher rent?

Unless, you are talking luxury, exclusive furnishings, I think it is just plain wrong of you not to have a place done up nicely for lower income tenants. They can be decent long term tenants you know.

In fact you seem to be a prime example of somebody who would just follow the bare minimum of the law, so you can justify to yourself taking advantage of poorer people and scraping what you can out of them:

Ok Darlughda I think you're getting a little confused here. I said if you can rent a dump legally and want to do that then fire away - I then said that I personally would look after my tenants, always with the rental income they provide in mind. So lumping my quotes together to try and twist my words ain't gonna work.

And yes I do think totally refurbishing a dump will increase its rental value. If you don't understand why then stay away from property investment. It's pretty basic stuff really

Sydney25

Darlughda wrote: »

Well, this is why I started the thread.



But, its far too easy for someone to take advantage of others when they can tell themselves 'well, I'm adhering to the basics of the law...so I'm perfectly entitled to grab as much money as I can out of people'.

This applies both ways. As explained to you in another thread, there are many tenants out there that abuse the system causing much difficulty and financial hardship to decent landlords.

Perhaps an issue of the times we are in is; tenants taking on properties they cannot afford when their circumstances change? Instead of 'cutting their cloth accordingly' they use the system to prop up their lifestyle?

ztoical

Most people would consider health care and food basic human rights as well but no one is going to say doctors and supermarkets should not be making a profit from their jobs so I don't understand why people think a LL should be providing housing for no profit. If the tenant can't afford to pay their power bill or buy food should the LL step in and cover that cost as well?

It is the states job to provide basic housing for those who are in need of it not private citizens. We do all help with providing for our fellow citizens by paying our taxes to help pay for the welfare state that we may all avail of if and when we find we are in need of it.

The issue is not with LL or tenants but the current system in place regarding the legalities of private rental. I've rented in Ireland and in several different countries [in Europe and North American] and most other countries have far better systems and attitudes in place for long term rental then Ireland does and the LL there make a profit from the service they are providing just like any other business.

BostonB

Sydney25 wrote: »

...Perhaps an issue of the times we are in is; tenants taking on properties they cannot afford when their circumstances change? Instead of 'cutting their cloth accordingly' they use the system to prop up their lifestyle?

I think many just bury their heads in the sand instead of dealing with the issue. I've seen tenants being offered cheaper accommodation, perhaps smaller, but actually nicer. Not much further away, but still refuse to leave, and fall into arrears and then eviction, simply because they won't move to a smaller place.

Makes no sense to me. But it happens. Likewise I've seen LL not drop their rent, lose tenants, then be stuck with a empty property for months. That doesn't make sense either.

tara73

OP, you are kind of complaining about 'this bad world/ all these bad landlords', so the question is, do you have a model/suggestion how to solve this?

I think you can whinge about this/get angry for all your life, as there will never be only 'good' people/LL's'.

don't get me wrong, I think it's very brave and relevant to address that LL's shouldn't be greedy and provide decent accommodation for the price they get/want....but if you start this discussion I would expect you have some sort of solution or ideas to tackle this problem.

for example, do you want kind of a communist model, to have the state provide standard apartments/houses for everybody and it is not allowed for anybody to privately rent?
or should potential landlords have to pass an exam to show they qualify as a decent landlord...

how would you solve your query/complain? Personally I don't think it's solvable, as there are always 'good and bad' people out there:rolleyes:

the_syco

Darlughda wrote: »

This.
This kind of odious attitude is what I am talking about.

Two landlords. One offers the above for €50 a week, and the other offers what you'd like to see in a house for €100 a week. Both will be taken. The sh|thole may be a sh|thole, but it'll be a sh|thole that someone can afford. The other one with the mod cons you want will be that much more expensive, as it was more expensive for the landlord to provide such facilities.

You could close down the €50 a week place, but then where'd they go? They wouldn't be able to afford the €100 a week place, and thus be homeless. Sometimes a sh|thole is better than nowhere.

Darlughda wrote: »

The attitude of there is no incentive for a LL to spend money on furnishings illustrates the whole point of why I started this thread.

So all landlords should provide the same great facilities regardless of how little rent they receive? This is a naive idea.

You don't seem to understand that not all landlords are rich. Not all landlords can afford to buy good apartments, and fill them with nice stuff.

Darlughda wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with making a profit from renting out property, but there is when they are taking advantage of people.

Who is taking advantage of them? If you think the rent is too high, rent somewhere else. If the high rent place has a TV, and the low rent place doesn't have a TV, use the money you saved by renting the low rent place to buy a TV.

reitseal

Darlughda wrote: »

Right I am just going to clarify exactly what I mean here.

Housing is a basic human need. The is a huge amount of people in this country at the moment in need of housing.

People who go into the business of renting out their property have a responsibility not to take advantage of people just for the sake of profit.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit from renting out property, but there is when they are taking advantage of people.

To a large extent, I get what you're saying and agree with it but Darlughda, that's purely aspirational. The reality of the rental sector in Ireland right now is that it's a steaming turd pile. I rented out a house for a good few years (don't even like using the word landlord cos it was just a situation where I was moving away for a while and needed the house when I came back) and I can tell you that despite my best efforts, the tenants I had were scum - Irish, non-Irish, social welfare, professional - $ssholes the lot of them. I was a brilliant landlord, gave them everything they needed, kept the place in good order, even rent reductions now and again and would have kept the rent low for a good tenant, and I can tell you that time and time again, the place was trashed in various different ways and if it wasn't that, it was calls from the police about parties etc.
And don't even start me on so-called letting agents who imo are a lazy bunch of money-grabbing twunts.

Had to give up on it in the end. Why? I wasn't able to get a decent tenant, that's why. So Darlughda, believe me, while I want things to conform to your ideal, they're hella far away from it right now...

Germany has it sussed. Anyone who's rented a place in Germany will know exactly what I mean

BostonB

reitseal wrote: »

...
Germany has it sussed. Anyone who's rented a place in Germany will know exactly what I mean

+1

When I was there you got a bare painted flat, all white. You gave it back in the same condition. Bare flat freshly painted. All white. All by the book. You bought your own furniture.

Darlughda

I had to take some time off boards after this thread, it really overwhelmed me, the horrible comments made about me and my intentions etc.

I was thinking it should be renamed 'landlords out for themselves' forum rather than accomodation and property, then I saw Reitseal's post.
That is a terrible situation and I wish you had and will have different experiences with good tenants, because you sound like a decent sort.

As a tenant on low income and disclosure-(I deal with people (voluntarily),who are struggling with illnesses and other poverty inducing circumstances, to help them find homes. So therefore have an inside knowledge of what people will do in order to get the max rent out of people for the most shabbiest of places.

I may be idealistic, but even going by' market standards', a landlord who has lived in a property themselves and has it done up accordingly, therefore is able to let it out at the lowest rate, yet has their choice of RA and other tenants. The property is snapped up within days.

We all live as part of a society. Therefore, I cannot see how any landlord can push a scummily equipped and decorated property that they would not dream of living in themselves off on the most vulnerable members of society.

All of you who have come out with vile stuff about me just because I have this seemingly ludricous notion that you should treat tenants as you would wish to be treated yourself- shame on you all.

You are the scum, not the RA tenants.

Zulu

Yea, we're all scum because you're entitled.

Listen buddy, you don't like the property? - don't rent it. It's that simple.

not even wrong

Darlughda wrote: »

Nonetheless, the idea of being a landlord being primarily a business decision is one that makes me :eek:.
This suggests a greedy individual who gives not a rat's ass about an individual only the bottom line on the return of their investments.

To me it suggests a professional who obeys their legal obligations, keeps proper records, pays tax and makes sensible decisions aimed at the long-term sustainability of their investment.

When you look at the threads in this forum it's clear that most of the problems tenants are having are not with the professional businesslike landlord, it's with amateur cowboy landlords who think their tenants are their serfs who should be thanking them for the privilege of living in their shoebox in D24.

Also, does this cut both ways -- am I, as a tenant, obliged to care about my landlord's welfare beyond what it says in my lease? If she's having trouble meeting her mortgage should I throw in a few extra quid on the rent to help her out? Because frankly I "don't give a rat's ass" beyond the bottom line of the rent I'm paying.

The_Conductor

Guys- if you are incapable of remaining civil towards one another- you are going to be banned from this forum- without exception. When posting in this forum- akin to posting in any forum on this website- there is a forum charter which specifies what is allowed, and what is not. I am going to be handing out posting holidays to people on the basis of what has been posted in this and other threads. If people would like to post in the forum on the elapse of their bans- I seriously suggest they read the forum charter before doing so.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

The_Conductor

Darlughda wrote: »

You are the scum, not the RA tenants.

I'm sorry that you've felt abused in this forum by the horrible comments about you and your intentions. If you feel that any post is over the line- be it problematic, personally abusive or in breach of the forum charter- please use the 'report post' function (that little red triangle with an exclamation mark in it towards the bottom left of a post).

Several posters have used this function- to report your post. Regardless of how you feel about other posters- retaliating and labelling them as 'scum' is only going to get you a ban in this forum. Accordingly you will receive a small slap on the wrist- a 3 day posting ban- and I direct you to read the forum charter when this short posting holiday elapses.

Regards,

SMcCarrick

Balmed Out

Darlughda,
Your original post meant little sense as the only obvious reason for anyone to become a landlord is to make money. If you changed your post to describe some substandard lettings and how much they were chargng then fair enough we would all in likely agree with you and perhaps the thread could have been used to discuss whether the law needs to be changed and what exactly is fit for purpose in rented accomodation. Not everyone here is a landlord, i have always rented and look at this forum as I plan to buy over the next few years. Ive never had a very bad experience with a landlord other then maybe not being the quickest to fix something small, anything importants always been done quick enough. My experience is they are the same as me, just trying to get by.
No need to be calling people names behind an annonomous mask on the internet.

reitseal

not even wrong wrote: »

When you look at the threads in this forum it's clear that most of the problems tenants are having are not with the professional businesslike landlord, it's with amateur cowboy landlords who think their tenants are their serfs who should be thanking them for the privilege of living in their shoebox in D24.

Also, does this cut both ways -- am I, as a tenant, obliged to care about my landlord's welfare beyond what it says in my lease? If she's having trouble meeting her mortgage should I throw in a few extra quid on the rent to help her out? Because frankly I "don't give a rat's ass" beyond the bottom line of the rent I'm paying.

I agree with the first comment completely. There is a very bad attitude among lots of landlords in Ireland right now BUT there's also a very bad attitude among lots of tenants, borne out by what I mentioned above that despite having every type of tenant under the sun, and being very reasonable, I just couldn't get a good one.

And I also agree with you that someone's high mortgage is their own concern, not a tenant's and if you're going into the landlording business expecting a tenant to be at the whim of your high mortgage, I'd say go into a different business tbh.

OP don't be put off by the comments, there are lots of different opinions out there and for the record, your suggestion about having a database to match landlords and tenants who are on the same page is a very good one imo.

the_syco

Darlughda wrote: »

So therefore have an inside knowledge of what people will do in order to get the max rent out of people for the most shabbiest of places.

GREAT IDEA! Shut all those cheap places down.

What's the outcome? Many more homeless people. Just because you shut down the cheap places, doesn't mean the good places will somehow become cheaper. It just means those who can only afford the cheap places will no longer have a place to rent.

If you asked one of the people you dealt with to, instead of going for some cheap place, to go for a place that costs €200 more a month, could they afford it? That's the crux of the matter.