block vs timber frame

8vSport

hi all

we are building in mayo and hoping to start soon, we were going for a block house but then we received a price from a timber frame company for €42000 plus vat, the house is 2300sqft, dormer bungalow. when calculating up the prices on the block, roof etc, there is not much in the difference. just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on a timber frame or if anyone recently used any company that they could recommend. we only have received one quote yet but want to look into a few more

thanks

wclarke20

I'm in the same position as yourself. Some blocklayers prices are crazy. i got a cheaper quote for a bigger house off some TF companies. I can PM you some of the details of the quotes if you like for comparitive purposes.

8vSport

yes please, that would be great, im waiting to get a few more.

galwaytt

8vSport wrote: »

hi all

we are building in mayo and hoping to start soon, we were going for a block house but then we received a price from a timber frame company for €42000 plus vat, the house is 2300sqft, dormer bungalow. when calculating up the prices on the block, roof etc, there is not much in the difference. just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on a timber frame or if anyone recently used any company that they could recommend. we only have received one quote yet but want to look into a few more

thanks

You're right, spec-for-spec, there shouldn't be much, if any, difference. I saw a 277m2, house quoted near Galway today to A2 spec, airtightness below 1.0, for €784 per m2. Can't see how that could be called expensive, tbh.

8vSport

we have decided to go with block build, working out there is a difference of just over 10k between the two of them. although the timber is fast, we have decided to go with the block which is what we decided all along

AckwelFoley

I will never be seen building anything other than a block house.

You still need to block the outer leaf of a timberframe house and personally, a block house is a better house - thats my opinion, maybe im biased by tradition.

muffler

snyper wrote: »

I will never be seen building anything other than a block house.

You still need to block the outer leaf of a timberframe house and personally, a block house is a better house - thats my opinion, maybe im biased by tradition.

Have to agree

LoTwan

muffler wrote: »

Have to agree

Do you agree that Snyper is biased or that block is better

muffler

LoTwan wrote: »

Do you agree that Snyper is biased or that block is better

Expressing an opinion or preference isn't showing bias.

If you think it is then I'm being biased also as I would run with blocks and mortar any day of the week.

LoTwan

muffler wrote: »

Expressing an opinion or preference isn't showing bias.

If you think it is then I'm being biased also as I would run with blocks and mortar any day of the week.

I am with you. I chose blocks and mortar, in part because of the "biased by tradition". I am glad I did.

muffler

LoTwan wrote: »

"biased by tradition"

I'll be biased again and say that was sensible

seannash

Dont know why people are claiming block is better

People the world over,where the climate is far harsher than ireland have been building timber framed houses for years.
Particularly in Scandanavia when they build some of the most thermally efficent housing in the world

But eh yeah lets stick to tradition i guess:)

Carlow52

seannash wrote: »

Dont know why people are claiming block is better

People the world over,where the climate is far harsher than ireland have been building timber framed houses for years.
Particularly in Scandanavia when they build some of the most thermally efficent housing in the world

But eh yeah lets stick to tradition i guess:)

I suppose the fact that Santa land is overrun with timber is evidence of more bias, or more tradition or even both.

seannash

Carlow52 wrote: »

I suppose the fact that Santa land is overrun with timber is evidence of more bias, or more tradition or even both.

not really,Timber is very very common the world over where the conditions are alot harsher than ireland.
Alot of people think that we need brick houses to put up with our weather.To be honest are winters are a walk in the park compared to other countries.
America is an example of a place that the majority of houses are timber.

Its personal choice at the end of the day.If i was getting a house built in timber for alot cheaper than brick its a very easy decision to make.

seannash

LoTwan wrote: »

I am with you. I chose blocks and mortar, in part because of the "biased by tradition". I am glad I did.

Is there any tangible reason why your glad you did other than your personal preference?

themadchef

Ours is timber frame.

There are times i'd love the inner block if only for hanging a picture or heavy mirror.

The house is super warm though and i live on an elevated, exposed site. Stove heated with turf, stopped bothering wih the oil 2 years ago. This is where it pays for itself imo.

I still wonder about the guy who built this though. He came reccomended to us as he had built 3 or 4 houses in the area over a number of years. Other timber frame houses ive watched going in seem completly different.

This guy literally built if from scratch on site with the help of two Polish lads... Touch wood house is perfect, but i just think it strange how different the build was to others.

Anyway, if i had to do it over again, i'd pick timber frame every time.

seannash

themadchef wrote: »

Ours is timber frame.

There are times i'd love the inner block if only for hanging a picture or heavy mirror.

The house is super warm though and i live on an elevated, exposed site. Stove heated with turf, stopped bothering wih the oil 2 years ago. This is where it pays for itself imo.

I still wonder about the guy who built this though. He came reccomended to us as he had built 3 or 4 houses in the area over a number of years. Other timber frame houses ive watched going in seem completly different.

This guy literally built if from scratch on site with the help of two Polish lads... Touch wood house is perfect, but i just think it strange how different the build was to others.

Anyway, if i had to do it over again, i'd pick timber frame every time.

Most timber framed houses would be prefabbed in a factory.Basically your fella didnt have a factory so built it on site.Im sure its fine.:)

As for hanging something just find the wooden stud and bang a nail in it

themadchef

seannash wrote: »

Most timber framed houses would be prefabbed in a factory.Basically your fella didnt have a factory so built it on site.Im sure its fine.:)

As for hanging something just find the wooden stud and bang a nail in it

Cheers. He seemed like a decent fella, and the house hasint snapped in two yet!

Me use a hammer? LOL There's a thought. Could try it with a rolling pin i suppose.

Stove Fan

For me I would go for block. I had an extension built and the price of the blocks and the labour charges were the best value out of all of the other trades. For the work the blocklayer does it represents good value. Blocks seem more permanent than timber. I would worry the timber frame would get damp in the Irish weather.

Stove Fan:)

1chippy

seannash wrote: »

Dont know why people are claiming block is better

People the world over,where the climate is far harsher than ireland have been building timber framed houses for years.
Particularly in Scandanavia when they build some of the most thermally efficent housing in the world

But eh yeah lets stick to tradition i guess:)

The difference from scandanavia and Ireland are that in scandanavia the climate may be harsher, but it is consistant. in ireland its warm one minute wet the next sleet the next. each time it changes the timber moves,opens and closes. this causes for stresses and wear and tear on timber that doesnt happen in scandanavia. maybe there is someone out there who can explain it better but thats the rough jist of it.
I,m a carpenter myself but would never consider a timberframe. i'm putting concrete slabs in instead of joists. purely to avoid sagging joists, cracking ceilings, sound and even the fire rating.
i know theres pros and cons for both but personally think concrete.

seannash

1chippy wrote: »

The difference from scandanavia and Ireland are that in scandanavia the climate may be harsher, but it is consistant. in ireland its warm one minute wet the next sleet the next. each time it changes the timber moves,opens and closes. this causes for stresses and wear and tear on timber that doesnt happen in scandanavia. maybe there is someone out there who can explain it better but thats the rough jist of it.
I,m a carpenter myself but would never consider a timberframe. i'm putting concrete slabs in instead of joists. purely to avoid sagging joists, cracking ceilings, sound and even the fire rating.
i know theres pros and cons for both but personally think concrete.

well perhaps America is a more satisfactory example,Especially in any of the areas that have ski slopes,as someone who snowboards i can tell you it can be very hot up on the slopes but snowing again that evening
Carpenter here too and Id have no problem recommending timber frame

To be honest its just tradition that causes the doubt in peoples heads about timber frame i think

muffler

seannash wrote: »

But eh yeah lets stick to tradition i guess:)

seannash wrote: »

To be honest its just tradition that causes the doubt in peoples heads about timber frame i think

So why do you say that it's "tradition" that make people choose a block house then?

seannash

muffler wrote: »

So why do you say that it's "tradition" that make people choose a block house then?

Its the norm,People dont like to change,they look around and see brick houses and follow suit.
same reason irish people are fascinated with the square house

muffler

seannash wrote: »

Its the norm

Cant agree.

seannash wrote: »

People dont like to change,they look around and see brick houses and follow suit.

Cant agree with that either. My years of experience have taught me that nothing could be further from the truth.

seannash wrote: »

same reason irish people are fascinated with the square house

No, they're not. If you seen some of the designs I put together.....

Can you give us some stats of why you think people prefer and do build block houses. Can you show us stats that the majority of houses built in this country over the last 10 years are block built?

seannash

Cant agree.

Fair enough

Cant agree with that either. My years of experience have taught me that nothing could be further from the truth.

And my years of working on site after site of square houses have taught me the majority of people dont have the vision,foresight or trust in architects to create something other than the norm,especially as the planning is so hard to get for a alternative design in this country

No, they're not. If you seen some of the designs I put together.....

Well thats great but you may be a small percentage of the whole picture

Can you give us some stats of why you think people prefer and do build block houses. Can you show us stats that the majority of houses built in this country over the last 10 years are block built?

No but the responses i gave were in relation to people in this thread saying that they wouldnt dream of building in timber and I just put forward the other view,that timber is capable of putting up with Irish weather.
Again its my personal experience that leads me to the conclusion that most people who build there own house tend to go for a square shaped house,planning permission being a huge factor in that decision.
As for the stats on timber versus block build in this country,whichever way its sways it doesnt mean that either isnt good for building in this country and people shouldnt be afraid to use timber

beyondpassive

I think its very easy to miss the biggest issue inn Irish Building - Quality. Its very difficult to have a rational discussion on construction detailing, without encountouring staunch deep rooted beliefs that evoke extreme emotional responces. Its not a matter of comparing Timber frame and block, except for in one aspect. At the lower end of the market, there is more room for error in block built. This is related to our low expectations of housing and our lack of understanding of climate and humidity.

Quality is always the big issue, a high spec house could cost €250 per square foot turnkey while a basic spec built to comply with code and paying VAT would cost €100. The vast bulk of this difference is in finishes, Mahogony veneered half hour fire door with brushed stainless steel handles versus, knotty pine country door with mock brass handles for instance.

The current spec we recommend for timber frame with block skin is 40 gutex softboard racking on a 225 stud cellulose filled with osb 15mm taped airtighness layer and an insulated services cavity. , the same spec on the roof for room in roof scenario. The block house to match that is a 250 full fill cavity. We look for airtighness of about 1 and this has a heat demand of about 20kWh, 25% more than certified Passive House.

Sorry to digree, heres the main point. The biggest cost factor after finishes is workmanship. This is huge, It is as we know nearly impossible to get good workmanship without a good set of drawings, clear instructions to the trades, a hawk eyed contractor/forman/selfbuilder and a watertight contract or sub contracts. When workmanship is factored in there is no difference between timber and Block built.

There is one further issue to consider in Irish climate and it is related to the large swings we gcan get in temperature from day to day or even hour to hour. Your building envelope needs to have some type of thermal capacity or density. This means you have to have something heavy inside your insulation or have heavy insulation. A dense block wall can provide this but only if it has about 150mm of PIR or 200 EPS insulation continuously around it with the rising wall cold bridge thermall isolated. However Timber frame can also do this job quite well if it used materials like softboard and cellulose which have high thermal capacity. This high thermal capacity can absorb heat and can regulate fluctuations in Temperature from solar gain or the heating system. When heating a building for every 1 kW heating the air, 7 heat the structure, so the structure becomes a heat bank which returns this heat when the temperature drops inside or absorbs excess heat in an overheating scenario.

So to express an opinion, Timber and Block, no discernible difference when you set your performance targets above merely complying with minimum standards

galwaytt

snyper wrote: »

thats my opinion, maybe im biased by tradition.

..maybe you are

LoTwan wrote: »

Do you agree that Snyper is biased or that block is better

I agree that he may be biased, and that blocks are cheaper. But not better

Stove Fan wrote: »

..Blocks seem more permanent than timber. I would worry the timber frame would get damp in the Irish weather.
Stove Fan:)

'Seem' that's some subjective measure alright. As for the damp: 2 simple questions for you : how would a TF get wet, and, speaking of timber.....what's your roof made of......??

beyondpassive wrote: »

I think its very easy to miss the biggest issue in Irish Building - Quality. Its very difficult to have a rational discussion on construction detailing, without encountouring staunch deep rooted beliefs that evoke extreme emotional responces. ..........
Quality is always the big issue, ........ The biggest cost factor after finishes is workmanship. This is huge,

Amen. Hallelujah. +1. etc etc.

In my experience, this market is nearly always price-led. Quality is not oftenr valued. In the UK, whilst value is always important, Quality is always on the agenda.

AckwelFoley

galwaytt wrote: »

..

'Seem' that's some subjective measure alright. As for the damp: 2 simple questions for you : how would a TF get wet, and, speaking of timber.....what's your roof made of......??

.

Well, i will put it to you this way.

In an old house, which part of the structure lasts longest? The roof or the walls?

You dont see too many very old houses 100 + years with a perfect roof and poor degraded walls.

galwaytt

snyper wrote: »

Well, i will put it to you this way.

In an old house, which part of the structure lasts longest? The roof or the walls?

You dont see too many very old houses 100 + years with a perfect roof and poor degraded walls.

Sure.......but look deeper: it's not the timber, per se that's the issue. It's the way it's put together.

That old house you mention....?....have a look at the bottom of the walls and floors and tell me how much moisture is in them.

Remember, timber is the original building material, and we have changed gradually to masonry - for all manner of reasons. None of those detract from timber, as a material.

muffler

galwaytt wrote: »

Remember, timber is the original building material

Oh really!

And the following (built thousands of years ago) were built with timber were they?

galwaytt

Yes, really. Very funny - there's always one :rolleyes:

Meanwhile back on earth in Ireland, which, last time I checked, is where we are......



Oh, and btw - pyramids are tombs - not buildings for living in.
And neither is the Great Wall, btw....

The picture of Dun Aengus is of the rampart wall - not a building, either.

muffler

galwaytt wrote: »

Oh, and btw - pyramids are tombs - not buildings for living in.
And neither is the Great Wall, btw....

They wanted them to stand the test of time so they choose stone

galwaytt wrote: »

The picture of Dun Aengus is of the rampart wall - not a building, either.

Thats actually in my county and its An Grianan of Aileach

creedp

galwaytt wrote: »

..maybe you are

I agree that he may be biased, and that blocks are cheaper. But not better



'Seem' that's some subjective measure alright. As for the damp: 2 simple questions for you : how would a TF get wet, and, speaking of timber.....what's your roof made of......??




Amen. Hallelujah. +1. etc etc.

In my experience, this market is nearly always price-led. Quality is not oftenr valued. In the UK, whilst value is always important, Quality is always on the agenda.

This thread seems to have run into the ground between the evangilists on both sides of the argument. I note above Galwaytt that you are suggesting that blocks are not better than timber. Does this mean that you are saying that a block house built to a high standard is inferior to a timber framed house built to a similar std? I have to say I disagree with this and I have no axe to grind with either.

I think what's important here is personal choice and high std of workmanship in either case. I find it hard to rationalise people's staunch views on choices such as this as if there is an absolute better/best way of doing anything. Just because some people like timber, mainly from what I can see from an environmental and ease of construction perspective doesn't mean that block build is a no no. I built block but I could just as easily built TF but I just saw them a choices to achieve the same outcome, i.e. a house. Is there really more to the argument than this? I think in this country progressive people like to downgrade the way we have done thinks in the past as if far away fields are always greener. Its good we have more choice in building/design these days but that doesn't mean there is any wrong with a block built square house. Sounds a bit like design 'nose in the air to me'!!

crossmolinalad

Maybe this will be a reason not to build timberframe

Found this text in my insurance policy
Does it means timberframe whats prefabricated is not insured ??
If so then i have a problem


What is your house made from? If your home is made from non-standard materials you may not be able to get cover - for example for a prefabricated structure.

BryanF

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Maybe this will be a reason not to build timberframe

Found this text in my insurance policy
Does it means timberframe whats prefabricated is not insured ??
If so then i have a problem


What is your house made from? If your home is made from non-standard materials you may not be able to get cover - for example for a prefabricated structure.

what a load of ....

get on to your insurance company to clarify the term prefabricated. I'm sure there's a miss-understanding here with regards to timber frame

galwaytt

creedp wrote: »

This thread seems to have run into the ground between the evangilists on both sides of the argument. I note above Galwaytt that you are suggesting that blocks are not better than timber. Does this mean that you are saying that a block house built to a high standard is inferior to a timber framed house built to a similar std? I have to say I disagree with this and I have no axe to grind with either.

I think what's important here is personal choice and high std of workmanship in either case. I find it hard to rationalise people's staunch views on choices such as this as if there is an absolute better/best way of doing anything. Just because some people like timber, mainly from what I can see from an environmental and ease of construction perspective doesn't mean that block build is a no no. I built block but I could just as easily built TF but I just saw them a choices to achieve the same outcome, i.e. a house. Is there really more to the argument than this? I think in this country progressive people like to downgrade the way we have done thinks in the past as if far away fields are always greener. Its good we have more choice in building/design these days but that doesn't mean there is any wrong with a block built square house. Sounds a bit like design 'nose in the air to me'!!

I'm sorry, but you're putting words in my mouth - I did not say TF is better, or more specifically, that concrete 'worse'. My choice (even before I got my day-job) to use timber-based on my own build, came specifically based on my first house (in the 90's) being of concrete blocks (direct labour - I physically laid all foundations, blocks, roofed it, and plumbed it, myself), and was built to (at the time) a good standard. However, things move on. And the single biggest issue I had, was how to build a better quality and higher-performing house, when the time came to do so again. I didn't have an axe to grind one way or the other, so, like everyone else, I did my research. When I had that done, I had empirical and anecdotal data on a whole load of things, and on balance I came to the conclusion that the easiest way for me to build a high-performing, and better quality house, was to not use blocks in the main. If it had come out the other way, I'd have done it the opposite. I voted with my own wallet. There is a time and place to use them, and I still do, but only where it stacks up and makes sense.

For me - and you say this yourself - quality is the biggest arbiter of any build. Quality of materials, quality of design/system, quality of workmanship, quality of finish, etc.

Indeed, I was on a tour of a bespoke house a few month's ago, and one of the visitors asked the homeowner (in an attempt to get his head around the whole thing), what was BER and airtightness doing for his build, to which the homeowner replied, and I thought it was a very apt way to put it: in his eyes, the BER indicates the quality of design, and the airtightness (as measured), indicated the quality of workmanship. It's not the perfect answer, but I thought it was a well-put context.

So then to me, what is the best way to deliver a warranted quality-of-build, backed up with objective, empirical data ? To me, that's off-site construction. Pragmatically speaking, to me, it is easier to ensure quality of build of a product in a factory, then on a wind and rain-swept site. You can make, measure, and check the product before it goes out the door.

This is not an aspersion on individual workmen on site - I have been that guy on the scaffold in driving January rain, laying blockwork gables, so I'm not un-familiar with the issues that come up, and how hard it can be. I don't think there isn't a single blocklayer who wouldn't take up the offer of making his job easier AND the finished product better, if it was offered. Having spent 2 days on a very, very wind-swept site in Mayo last week, and having met with them on the site, I still believe it to be so.

And, it stands to reason that if it is easier to do a job well, it is more likely to be done well, as a result.

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Maybe this will be a reason not to build timberframe

Found this text in my insurance policy
Does it means timberframe whats prefabricated is not insured ??
If so then i have a problem


What is your house made from? If your home is made from non-standard materials you may not be able to get cover - for example for a prefabricated structure.

As pointed out by someone else above, but that is nonsense. Any building made off-site, of any material: timber, steel, concrete, ICF, is pre-fabricated - so that comment above is so completely misleading.

All houses, no matter of what material, concrete blocks, TF, SIP, LGSF, ICF, Pre-cast concrete panels - must pass the same testing, and meet the same standards, for durability and fire, for Building Regulations. This is not a variable, it is an across-the-board requirement. There is no premium extra for living in a TF house, (nor discount for a concrete one, btw........). If someone tries that on, you need to correct them and report it to someone (DoE, Dept of Trade and Enterprise, etc).

If what you say was true, then in excess of 30% of new build stock in recent years here, (70% in Scotland), would be un-insurable. Which of course, it isn't.

Don't forget that the State itself, including some local authorities, uses off-site construction too.........including schools, colleges, universities.

What that statement in your insurance means that you must tell them what it's made of. They want to know - and there is no reason not to tell them.

Brianaldo

8vSport wrote: »

hi all

we are building in mayo and hoping to start soon, we were going for a block house but then we received a price from a timber frame company for €42000 plus vat, the house is 2300sqft, dormer bungalow. when calculating up the prices on the block, roof etc, there is not much in the difference. just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on a timber frame or if anyone recently used any company that they could recommend. we only have received one quote yet but want to look into a few more

thanks

Hi

I was wondering what company you priced with the timber framed house.
Thanks

colmhd

Of course you can always opt for a combination of both and you could reap the benefits of block and timber.