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Corruption of sacred texts

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  • #32
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If the Bible is corrupted, what is the point in using the Bible in dawah? That's the main question I have.
    The point simple, you believe in Bible and you have faith in bible, If bible tells something,obviously it is easily to convince you rather using other sources. Now all bible isn't corrupted, even there are some clues which match with Quran. As i had showed you that there is lot of resemblance between Quran and bible why because Quran is from Same God and Bible is from same God. Now where is difference. Difference is different man made interpretation of Bible.
    Please follow link
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_narratives_and_the_Qur%27an
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I want to know:
    1) Why should I trust in the Qur'an as being a more reliable source than the New Testament in respect to the life of Jesus if it comes 600 odd years later?
    Because its mentioned in the bible that there will be another prophet that will be sent to the people after Essa "Jesus" (Alyh alslam) and mentions that he's the last prophet.Bible:

    In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19).
    Muhammad was predicted to come in the Gospel of John:
    Just a quick note, the Arabic word "Muhammad" is an expression which means "The honorable one" or "The glorified one" or "The admirable". Prophet Muhammad was the first in the Middle East to be named "Muhammad". Below, you will see how Jesus in today's Gospel of John had called this human Prophet which he predicted his comming "The honorable one".
    Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. He called that predicted human prophet "Periklytos". This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek.
    Let us start...
    In the Bible we can find the following four passages wherein Jesus (peace be upon him) predicts a great event:
    John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"
    John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"
    John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
    John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."
    In these four verses, the word "comforter"is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (peace be upon him) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (peace be upon him), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.
    It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today.The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.
    All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.
    What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.
    John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".
    Jakkass wrote: »
    (2) How can we know that the Qur'an is not itself corrupt.
    To answer this question first tell me do you believe in God's words. Suppose for the sake of argument do you agree with me, Quran is God's word?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    3) Why is the Qur'an any more true than the Bible?
    1. Quran doesn't contains many versions dervived from ancient manuscripts.
    2. The bible has a number of Books many of whose authors are not know as agreed by wikipedia(this citation is not alterable!) It was inspired by men who wrote it so it is subject to human error. Whereas there is only one version of Quran in whole world
    3.The bible was never memorized to preserve its safe passing down to future geneartions.

    4.Quran doesn't contains serious historical,scientific ,mathematical and logical error.
    5.Bible does not exist in the original language which is hebrew or armaic, these are extinct languages and because of its translationf froma dead language into multiple translations doubts arise whenther the meaning can remain intact for 2000 years. Whereas Quran is in its original langauge
    6.the authors of bible report with inumerable errors ,in third person of happenings which contradict each


  • #33
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dead one wrote: »
    The point simple, you believe in Bible and you have faith in bible, If bible tells something,obviously it is easily to convince you rather using other sources. Now all bible isn't corrupted, even there are some clues which match with Quran. As i had showed you that there is lot of resemblance between Quran and bible why because Quran is from Same God and Bible is from same God. Now where is difference. Difference is different man made interpretation of Bible.
    Please follow link.

    How is the Qur'an any less corrupt if not more so? Just curious, and also I want to hear your opinion rather than the opinion of others.

    I don't believe the Islamic concept of God is the same as the Christian one. Christians clearly, and the Bible clearly presents a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    dead one wrote: »
    Because its mentioned in the bible that there will be another prophet that will be sent to the people after Essa "Jesus" (Alyh alslam) and mentions that he's the last prophet.Bible:

    Not at all. All you are showing is an ability to strawman:
    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John's Gospel throughout uses Trinitarian language.
    dead one wrote: »
    In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19).

    Is Muhammad a Jew? - This passage is referring to Jesus as far as I see it.

    dead one wrote: »
    To answer this question first tell me do you believe in God's words. Suppose for the sake of argument do you agree with me, Quran is God's word?

    No, I don't agree that the Qur'an is God's word.
    dead one wrote: »
    1. Quran doesn't contains many versions dervived from ancient manuscripts.

    Nonsense, the Qur'an contains a number of translations into English, just as the Bible does.
    dead one wrote: »
    2. The bible has a number of Books many of whose authors are not know as agreed by wikipedia(this citation is not alterable!) It was inspired by men who wrote it so it is subject to human error. Whereas there is only one version of Quran in whole world

    I don't trust Wikipedia as an authority, however I would attribute this for the most part to many prophets having scribes.
    dead one wrote: »
    3.The bible was never memorized to preserve its safe passing down to future geneartions.

    I'm fairly sure this was a practice in the past. In the early church there wasn't any Bible apart from the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Although hivizman has pointed out something very interesting in respect to memorisation and indeed the Caliph Uthman. There can be alterations that seep in in memorisation. Hence why there were five differing Qur'ans in existence, an authoriative version was chosen and the rest burned according to Bukhari's hadith.
    dead one wrote: »
    4.Quran doesn't contains serious historical,scientific ,mathematical and logical error.

    What basis do you have for this?
    dead one wrote: »
    5.Bible does not exist in the original language which is hebrew or armaic, these are extinct languages and because of its translationf froma dead language into multiple translations doubts arise whenther the meaning can remain intact for 2000 years. Whereas Quran is in its original langauge.

    This is false, and is typical of the nonsense one will hear at the typical dawah stand in respect to Christianity. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic and we still have Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts. The New Testament was written in Greek and we still have Greek manuscripts.
    dead one wrote: »
    6.the authors of bible report with inumerable errors ,in third person of happenings which contradict each

    Let's discuss this. I have a strong feeling that this is going to prove to be inaccurate.


  • #34
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Jakkass wrote: »
    How is the Qur'an any less corrupt if not more so? Just curious, and also I want to hear your opinion rather than the opinion of others.
    I had given you my opinion in the end of post. The detail which is given in the wiki link isn't other people's opinion. But it's opinion of majority of muslim and i suppose i am musilm.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't believe the Islamic concept of God is the same as the Christian one. Christians clearly, and the Bible clearly presents a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    What is islamic concept of God i.e oneness of God. If you see bible that's what Jesus preached. Jesus never claimed for divinity It means you are indirectly rejecting Jesus accepting other people who interpreted bible on behlf of jesus. Yet you claim that you love jesus.
    Both the Noble Quran and the Bible claim that GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One:
    "Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"
    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"
    "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"
    Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

    The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
    If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?
    I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.
    Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
    Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
    A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3 below:"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)
    (also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.
    1) Christian scholars see evidence of tampering, especailly with the word "Spirit":
    In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote: "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135)
    We are about to see some of the evidence that goes to prove this position.

    2) Does the Holy Spirit "speak" or "inspire":
    Important Note: The Greek word translated as "hear" in the Biblical verses ("whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak") is the Greek word "akouo" {ak-oo'-o} meaning to perceive sounds. It has, for instance, given us the word "acoustics," the science of sounds. Similarly the verb "to speak" is the Greek verb "laleo" {lal-eh'-o} which has the general meaning "to emit sounds" and the specific meaning "to speak." This verb occurs very frequently in the Greek text of the Gospels. It designates a solemn declaration by Jesus (peace be upon him) during his preachings (For example Matthew 9:18). Obviously these verbs require hearing and speech organs in order to facilitate them. There is a distinct difference between someone "inspiring" something and him "speaking" something. So the Paraclete will "hear" and "speak," not "inspire."
    Muhammad (peace be upon him), as seen above, did indeed fulfill this prophesy. Whatsoever he "HEARD" from Gabriel (The Qur'an), the same did he physically "SPEAK" to his followers. In the Qur'an we read:
    "(God swears) By the star when it falls!: Your comrade (Muhammad) errs not, nor is he deceived; Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save a revelation that is revealed (unto him)." (The noble Qur'an, Al-Najm(53):1-4)
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Is Muhammad a Jew? - This passage is referring to Jesus as far as I see it.
    i knew it you will say it jesus
    From these verses we conclude that the prophet in this prophecy must have the following three characteristics:
    1) That he will be like Moses.
    2) That he will come from the brothers of the Israelites, i.e. the Ishmaelites.
    3) That God will put His words in to the mouth of this prophet and that he will declare what God commands him.
    Let us examine these three characteristics in more depth:
    1) A prophet like Moses:
    Now how jesus is like moses

    quote In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true? Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! SECONDLY, according to you - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Mose s did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" Therefore Jesus is not like Moses! THIRDLY, according to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, Father and Mother
    (1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?"

    Miraculous Birth
    (2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St.Matthew 1:18".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST.' And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announded to her, Mary reasoned:'.......HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE:......'(Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:
    " O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "
    The angel says in reply:
    "EVEN SO:
    ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:
    WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN,
    HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"
    AND IT IS " (9) (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).
    It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus.
    "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses."
    Marriage Ties
    (3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."
    No, I don't agree that the Qur'an is God's word.
    Do you agree bible is God's word
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Nonsense, the Qur'an contains a number of translations into English, just as the Bible does.
    My Good friend, but the original language is present in the world. Translations don't mean versions. There is only one version of Quran in the world. You don't know where is original copy of Bible?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't trust Wikipedia as an authority, however I would attribute this for the most part to many prophets having scribes.
    So why you don't help wikidia for the missing citation. Is this an excuse on you part showing you know the authors. ?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Although hivizman has pointed out something very interesting in respect to memorisation and indeed the Caliph Uthman. There can be alterations that seep in in memorisation. Hence why there were five differing Qur'ans in existence, an authoriative version was chosen and the rest burned according to Bukhari's hadith.

    There can never be alteration why reason is as follow because he didn't do on his own behalf. He put the matter before the Companions. All agreed that the copy prepared in Abu Bakr's time was the standard one. After Abu Bakr, it had passed into the hands of Omar, and now it was with his daughter, Hafsa. Usman got this copy. Zahid bin Thabit, the trusted scribe of the revelation, was asked to prepare seven copies from it. He was to be helped by three more men, who had the Qur'an by heart.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    What basis do you have for this?
    Science


  • #35
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dead one wrote: »
    I had given you my opinion in the end of post. The detail which is given in the wiki link isn't other people's opinion. But it's opinion of majority of muslim and i suppose i am musilm.

    This isn't an answer. Claiming that the Bible is corrupt is not simultaneously saying that the Qur'an isn't. That's the problem with your argument, it says nothing about Islam all it is is throwing pot-shots at Christianity.
    dead one wrote: »
    What is islamic concept of God i.e oneness of God. If you see bible that's what Jesus preached. Jesus never claimed for divinity It means you are indirectly rejecting Jesus accepting other people who interpreted bible on behlf of jesus. Yet you claim that you love jesus.

    Jesus, like all other Christians believes that God is one, comprised of three parts. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For some absurd reason Muslims seem to believe that Christians are polytheists.

    I'm not rejecting Jesus at all. I accept His life, death and resurrection. I accept that He died in our place on the cross for our sin. That's what being a Christian means. It is when Islam arrives that the story is changed, not beforehand.
    dead one wrote: »
    A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3 below:"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)
    (also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.

    Nonsense. It is saying that there are other spirits to the Holy Spirit, indeed there dark powers in the world as well as those of light as far as Christians are concerned. The Spirit is personified in the Scriptures, just as God is personified because the Spirit is a part of the Trinity. Just because he is used doesn't mean that the Spirit is a literal person.

    I wonder if I google some of what you have posted will I arrive at answeringchristianity.com or other such sites.
    dead one wrote: »
    i knew it you will say it jesus
    From these verses we conclude that the prophet in this prophecy must have the following three characteristics:
    dead one wrote: »
    1) That he will be like Moses.
    2) That he will come from the brothers of the Israelites, i.e. the Ishmaelites.
    3) That God will put His words in to the mouth of this prophet and that he will declare what God commands him.

    2 is incorrect:

    Ishmael is not the brother of Israel, that is Esau and the Edomites were utterly destroyed by the Babylonians (see Obadiah), and it doesn't say from amongst Israel's brothers it says from their brothers. I.E the community of Israel.
    dead one wrote: »
    Let us examine these three characteristics in more depth:
    1) A prophet like Moses:
    Now how jesus is like moses

    The answer is obvious, but as a Muslim you cannot accept it because it goes against your beliefs.

    Moses brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt (Exodus 12).
    Jesus brought those who put their faith and trust in Him out of the slavery of sin. Jesus died once for all so that they might have new life. There are numerous Scriptures that back this up.
    John 3:16-18 wrote:
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
    John 8:34-35 wrote:
    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

    If John 8:34-35 is true, how did Jesus set mankind free from sin other than the cross?

    If John 3:16-18 is true, why is it necessary to believe in the name of God's one and only son?
    dead one wrote: »
    My Good friend, but the original language is present in the world. Translations don't mean versions. There is only one version of Quran in the world. You don't know where is original copy of Bible?

    The original copies don't exist simply because of age. The fact that we have 40,000 copies for checking means that it would have been nonetheless extremely difficult to introduce changes.
    dead one wrote: »
    So why you don't help wikidia for the missing citation. Is this an excuse on you part showing you know the authors. ?

    Valid reasoning.
    dead one wrote: »
    There can never be alteration why reason is as follow because he didn't do on his own behalf. He put the matter before the Companions. All agreed that the copy prepared in Abu Bakr's time was the standard one. After Abu Bakr, it had passed into the hands of Omar, and now it was with his daughter, Hafsa. Usman got this copy. Zahid bin Thabit, the trusted scribe of the revelation, was asked to prepare seven copies from it. He was to be helped by three more men, who had the Qur'an by heart.

    How did he agree this? - The Qur'an wasn't written down until 100 years after it was learned orally. The first New Testament letters were written down within 15 years of the Gospel being first proclaimed. Is there more or less chance that error would be introduced in 100 years rather than 15. If I am wrong about the dating please tell me.
    dead one wrote: »
    Science

    This is a poor answer. I suspect that it has something to do with the supposed mathematical "miracles" of the Qur'an rather than anything authoritative.


  • #36
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I think its important to note, that pointing out percieved 'flaws' etc in the Bible, even if right, still DOES NOTHING to further ANY sort of a case for the Quran.

    On a different note, I've talked to Muslims who have posited that because the Quran is the Word of God through one man i.e. Muhammad, it makes it more reliable. I have to say, I think that this is one of its biggest weaknesses. Having more than one witness Declare the revelation of God, being in agreement and given over time is better than having just one man on his own declaring that he has the word of God. Its the Joseph Smith (Mormonism) thing again.


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  • #37
    hivizman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I think its important to note, that pointing out percieved 'flaws' etc in the Bible, even if right, still DOES NOTHING to further ANY sort of a case for the Quran.

    On a different note, I've talked to Muslims who have posited that because the Quran is the Word of God through one man i.e. Muhammad, it makes it more reliable. I have to say, I think that this is one of its biggest weaknesses. Having more than one witness Declare the revelation of God, being in agreement and given over time is better than having just one man on his own declaring that he has the word of God. Its the Joseph Smith (Mormonism) thing again.

    This issue has always worried me - what criteria, if any, distinguish the authority of revelations reported by Muhammad from the authority of revelations reported by Joseph Smith? I saw a YouTube video (if I can track it down again, I'll add a link) recently where the speaker, a well-known Muslim apologist, stated that the Joseph Smith's claim to have received a revelation from God cannot be true because the Qur'an defines Muhammad as the "Seal of the Prophets" and hence the last and final messenger of God. But this is another of the Qur'an's self-reflexive claims - if you deny the authority of the Qur'an, then you cannot rule out subsequent claims to have received revelation simply because the Qur'an says so.


  • #38
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    hivizman - Indeed, Christianity placed such a restriction that if a prophet presented anything contrary to the Gospel that one should not accept this (Galatians 1:8). It seems to be something that is prevalent in a lot of differing traditions.


  • #39
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This isn't an answer. Claiming that the Bible is corrupt is not simultaneously saying that the Qur'an isn't. That's the problem with your argument, it says nothing about Islam all it is is throwing pot-shots at Christianity.
    Alright can you point out contradiction in quran? Also show me how quran can be corrupt, if it is corrupted who corrupted it?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Jesus, like all other Christians believes that God is one, comprised of three parts. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For some absurd reason Muslims seem to believe that Christians are polytheists.
    How you can say that, Have you ever met with Jesus in your dreams where Jesus told you that he believe in son,father and holy ghost or show me verse in bible where jesus said he believe in father,son and holy ghost.
    Suppose i say Adam believed jesus is son of god. That is what i believe, it doesn't mean actually Adam believed jesus as son of god. Same is case of bible, the interpretations which are present in bible don't show actual belief of Bible but those are belief of person
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm not rejecting Jesus at all. I accept His life, death and resurrection. I accept that He died in our place on the cross for our sin. That's what being a Christian means. It is when Islam arrives that the story is changed, not beforehand.
    You are accepting interpretation of people and you think that it will close you to Jesus, what an irony.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Nonsense. It is saying that there are other spirits to the Holy Spirit, indeed there dark powers in the world as well as those of light as far as Christians are concerned. The Spirit is personified in the Scriptures, just as God is personified because the Spirit is a part of the Trinity. Just because he is used doesn't mean that the Spirit is a literal person.
    Are you the holy spirit or speaking on behalf of holy spirit.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I wonder if I google some of what you have posted will I arrive at answeringchristianity.com or other such sites.

    Is this show you don't have knoweldge to discuss things. It also needs knowedlge to google things. Can this change facts which are written in bible.
    [/SIZE]
    Jakkass wrote: »
    2 is incorrect:
    Ishmael is not the brother of Israel, that is Esau and the Edomites were utterly destroyed by the Babylonians (see Obadiah), and it doesn't say from amongst Israel's brothers it says from their brothers. I.E the community of Israel.
    Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation, and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad , a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed this prophet.
    Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His “chosen one” and “messenger” who will bring down a law. “He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” (Isaiah 42:4). Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad .
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The answer is obvious, but as a Muslim you cannot accept it because it goes against your beliefs.
    Beliefs are not blind as the interpertations of people.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Moses brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt (Exodus 12).
    Jesus brought those who put their faith and trust in Him out of the slavery of sin. Jesus died once for all so that they might have new life. There are numerous Scriptures that back this up.
    You are saying as jesus was man so moses was man. Is this similarity. You pick a grain a sand tried to showed it as desert is this honestly
    Jakkass wrote: »
    If John 8:34-35 is true, how did Jesus set mankind free from sin other than the cross?
    Jesus was true messenger of God, If you follow his teaching surely you will get out of salavery of sin but Alas you are following interpretation of Pual.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Jesus, like all other Christians believes that God is one, comprised of three parts. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For some absurd reason Muslims seem to believe that Christians are polytheists.
    How you can say that, Have you ever met with Jesus in your dreams where Jesus told you that he believe in son,father and holy ghost or show me verse in bible where jesus said he believe in father,son and holy ghost.
    Suppose i says Adam believed jesus is son of god. That is what i believe, it doesn't mean actually Adam believed jesus as son of god. Same is case of bible, the interpretations which are present in bible don't show actual belief of Bible but those are belief of person
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm not rejecting Jesus at all. I accept His life, death and resurrection. I accept that He died in our place on the cross for our sin. That's what being a Christian means. It is when Islam arrives that the story is changed, not beforehand.
    You are accepting interpretation of people and think that it will close you to Jesus,
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Nonsense. It is saying that there are other spirits to the Holy Spirit, indeed there dark powers in the world as well as those of light as far as Christians are concerned. The Spirit is personified in the Scriptures, just as God is personified because the Spirit is a part of the Trinity. Just because he is used doesn't mean that the Spirit is a literal person.
    Are you the holy spirit or speaking on behalf of holy spirit.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I wonder if I google some of what you have posted will I arrive at answeringchristianity.com or other such sites.
    Is this show you don't have knoweldge to discuss things. It also needs knowedlge to google things. Can this change the fact which are written in bible.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    2 is incorrect:
    Ishmael is not the brother of Israel, that is Esau and the Edomites were utterly destroyed by the Babylonians (see Obadiah), and it doesn't say from amongst Israel's brothers it says from their brothers. I.E the community of Israel.
    Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation, and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad , a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed this prophet.
    Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His “chosen one” and “messenger” who will bring down a law. “He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” (Isaiah 42:4). Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad .
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The answer is obvious, but as a Muslim you cannot accept it because it goes against your beliefs.
    Beliefs are not blind as the interpertation of people.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Moses brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt (Exodus 12).
    Jesus brought those who put their faith and trust in Him out of the slavery of sin. Jesus died once for all so that they might have new life. There are numerous Scriptures that back this up.
    You are saying as jesus was man so moses was man. Is this similarity. You pick a grain of sand and tried to showed it as desert is this honesty?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    If John 3:16-18 is true, why is it necessary to believe in the name of God's one and only son?
    Let us look at the following verses:
    "that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (From the NIV Bible, John 3:15-17)"
    First of all, it is important to know that John 3:15-17 is not a quote from Jesus himself in the Bible. It is a quote that exist in the so-called "Gospel of John", but the Gospel itself according to the theologians and historians of the NIV Bible had been tampered with and altered by men, along with most of the Bible's books and gospels.
    The interpretation of John 3:16 can mean that if one doesn't believe in Jesus as the "son of God", and that he died on the cross for our sins, then the person will not have an Eternal Life in Paradise. The problem with this, however, is that, Son of GOD" theory originally comes from pagan Greek origins. And since most of the Bible's New Testament was written in Greek, then it had been without a doubt negatively influenced by such pagan theology, where Jesus being called "Son of GOD" is literally interpreted today as "part of GOD" or the "Creator of the Universe". "Son of God" in Hebrew literally means "Servant of God"
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The original copies don't exist simply because of age. The fact that we have 40,000 copies for checking means that it would have been nonetheless extremely difficult to introduce changes.
    Are you saying original text doesn't exist, interpretations exist.:confused::confused:
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Valid reasoning.
    Why you don't make it more valid by giving required citation to wiki
    Jakkass wrote: »
    How did he agree this? - The Qur'an wasn't written down until 100 years after it was learned orally. The first New Testament letters were written down within 15 years of the Gospel being first proclaimed. Is there more or less chance that error would be introduced in 100 years rather than 15. If I am wrong about the dating please tell me.
    Prophet muhammd was first learner of quran. Isn't it enough for the evidence. He also made his companion to learn quran by heart under his authority.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is a poor answer. I suspect that it has something to do with the supposed mathematical "miracles" of the Qur'an rather than anything authoritative.
    Science is good test?


  • #40
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I think its important to note, that pointing out percieved 'flaws' etc in the Bible, even if right, still DOES NOTHING to further ANY sort of a case for the Quran.

    On a different note, I've talked to Muslims who have posited that because the Quran is the Word of God through one man i.e. Muhammad, it makes it more reliable. I have to say, I think that this is one of its biggest weaknesses. Having more than one witness Declare the revelation of God, being in agreement and given over time is better than having just one man on his own declaring that he has the word of God. Its the Joseph Smith (Mormonism) thing again.
    If by miracle bible says, "Quran is God's word" Will you accept Quran? or argue with bible?:rolleyes:


  • #41
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    dead one wrote: »
    If by miracle bible says, "Quran is God's word" Will you accept Quran? or argue with bible?:rolleyes:

    Could you please just address the issue I raised?


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  • #42
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Could you please just address the issue I raised?
    JimiTime wrote: »
    I think its important to note, that pointing out percieved 'flaws' etc in the Bible, even if right, still DOES NOTHING to further ANY sort of a case for the Quran.

    On a different note, I've talked to Muslims who have posited that because the Quran is the Word of God through one man i.e. Muhammad, it makes it more reliable. I have to say, I think that this is one of its biggest weaknesses. Having more than one witness Declare the revelation of God, being in agreement and given over time is better than having just one man on his own declaring that he has the word of God. Its the Joseph Smith (Mormonism) thing again.
    God chooses his messengers among people and Muhammad was last messenger till judgement. You aren't simply understanding!!!. Jesus was messenger like many messengers before him. He wasn't last messenger. if he was than point me where he had told his people that there would no messenger after him. Infact you will find in the bible he had given tiding of something. Why that thing had not come? Think on it? You people are ruining your lives by following interpretation of some unknown men. No one knows those unknown men, Jesus was only for the children of Isreal, he wasnt for whole mankind.
    Jesus (peace be upon him) said"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth." What does Jesus (peace be upon him) mean by "ye cannot bear them now"? If we were to read the Bible, we would find many verses throughout the Bible wherein Jesus (peace be upon him) bemoans the lack of understanding he was constantly greeted with from his disciples throughout his ministry:
    "And he(Jesus) saith unto them(the disciples).....O ye of little faith." (Matthew 8:26)
    "...and (Jesus) said unto him(Peter), O thou of little faith." (Matthew 14:31)
    "he (Jesus) said unto them(the disciples), O ye of little faith." (Matthew 16:8)
    "And he(Jesus) said unto them(the disciples), Where is your faith?" (Luke 8:25)
    Notice that these are not common Jews who he is saying these words to, but his own elect disciples. The Bible vividly illustrates how he is constantly going out of his way to simplify matters for them and to speak to them as one speaks to little children. However, even at that, they still misunderstand. He is finally driven to frustration and made to say:
    "And Jesus said, Are ye even yet without understanding?" (Matthew 15:16)
    and "And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you?" (Luke 9:41)

    "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." (John 1:11)

    Jesus (peace be upon him) had "all truth," but he could not give it to them because they were not fit to receive it. Therefore, he told them that another would come after him who shall guide them into "all truth" which they could not receive from him. He tells us that the one who will come will "teach you all things." This one who will guide them into "all truth" is described as "The spirit of truth." We have already seen how the word "spirit" in the Bible is synonymous with the word "Prophet." Muhammad (peace be upon him), even before he became the prophet of Islam was known among his people as "Al-sadik Al-amin," which means "The truthful, the trustworthy." Thus, it becomes apparent that Muhammad was indeed "the spirit of truth." Since the departure of Jesus (peace be upon him) and to this day, the "Holy Ghost" has not taught mankind a single new truth not revealed by Jesus (peace be upon him) himself.

    It is important to notice the words "ALL truth" and "MANY things." "Many" and "All" means more than one. What new and innovative teachings has the Holy Ghost given mankind which were not taught by Jesus (peace be upon him)? The Qur'an says:

    "O mankind! The messenger (Muhammad) hath come unto you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore believe; (it is) better for you. But if ye disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is the All-Knower, the All-Wise." (The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):120)

    "We (God) have sent you (O Muhammad) with the Truth, as a bringer of glad tidings and a warner." (The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):119)

    "Those are the Verses of Allah. We recite them upon you (O Muhammad) in Truth. And verily, you are among the messengers." (The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):252)


  • #43
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    dead one wrote: »
    God chooses his messengers among people and Muhammad was last messenger till judgement. You aren't simply understanding!!!. Jesus was messenger like many messengers before him. He wasn't last messenger. if he was than point me where he had told his people that there would no messenger after him. Infact you will find in the bible he had given tiding of something. Why that thing had not come? Think on it? You people are ruining your lives by following interpretation of some unknown men. No one knows those unknown men, Jesus was only for the children of Isreal, he wasnt for whole mankind.

    Dead One, thank you for taking the time, but I'm wondering if you actually grasp the issue, or are you merely ignoring it?


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