Irish and its detractors.

fkt

policarp wrote: »

We should be proud to be able to speak our native language.
Most other countries in Europe speak english as a second language, but would never think of not speaking their own language.

BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY F*CKING USE THEIR OWN LANGUAGE

CatFromHue

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

This was the problem i the other thread: people assume that we all share the same affinity for history and the same identity. Personally, I never felt any bond with anything irish. I like some of the cultural aspects, but not all, and I certainly do not like them because they are Irish. So why should I learn a language just to make you feel good about yourself?

Your other points are valid though (messing? Give yourself credit!) as there is a lot of irrelevant stuff in the later years of state education. Personally, I don't think any subject should be compulsry after JC.

by not making certain subjects compulsory you're putting alot of responsibility on a 15 year old to choose subjects that will be relevant to his/her future life.

for example when i was 15 i wanted to become a vet. in the subjects that i did have a choice in for the leaving, i chose ones relevant to becoming a vet. in sixth year i changed my mind and i wanted to be an engineer. as an engineer physics and applied maths would have been much more of use than chemistry and biology (i chose these two as they were recomended if you wanted to become a vet).

"So why should I learn a language just to make you feel good about yourself?"

i dont know if you've read barrack obama's book or even heard halle berry talk about herself. they're both from mixed race back grounds and have struggled in their life to find who they are? or what is their identity?

we (when i saw we i mean the majority of white, "settled", people whos family have lived here for generations) have an identity as an irish person. we've never had to struggle to figure out this so maybe we take this for granted. i think from learning irish in school it has helped form this identity.

i agree with people who say the way irish is thought is not right. you say yourself you were interested in some of the culural aspects. i'd like to see more of these been taught in school. i dont think irish class should just be about the language but about our history, our customs and even our folklore. if irish class is just about the language the argument we are having now will rage on forever. if irish class becomes about who we are as a people including our language it would be much more benefical.

has anyone here read the battle below giltspur? (i think thats what its called anyway)

i'd like to counter your question of "So why should I learn a language just to make you feel good about yourself?" with what does being irish mean to you?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CatFromHue wrote: »

by not making certain subjects compulsory you're putting alot of responsibility on a 15 year old to choose subjects that will be relevant to his/her future life.

for example when i was 15 i wanted to become a vet. in the subjects that i did have a choice in for the leaving, i chose ones relevant to becoming a vet. in sixth year i changed my mind and i wanted to be an engineer. as an engineer physics and applied maths would have been much more of use than chemistry and biology (i chose these two as they were recomended if you wanted to become a vet).

But what about the ones who do? You wnated to be a vet - how would you ahve reacted if someone barred you from doing Biology in favour of being Irish? Cats don;t speak Irish!

At 15, I wager you have a better idea than someone in a government building who has never met you.

"So why should I learn a language just to make you feel good about yourself?"

i dont know if you've read barrack obama's book or even heard halle berry talk about herself. they're both from mixed race back grounds and have struggled in their life to find who they are? or what is their identity?

we (when i saw we i mean the majority of white, "settled", people whos family have lived here for generations) have an identity as an irish person. we've never had to struggle to figure out this so maybe we take this for granted. i think from learning irish in school it has helped form this identity.

Personally, I see myself as an individual. Some things I life I identify with, some I don't. But I don't put myself under pressure to need to identify with something. I know who I am and what I like. Beyond that, I'm not sure whay you mean by "identiy".

i agree with people who say the way irish is thought is not right. you say yourself you were interested in some of the culural aspects. i'd like to see more of these been taught in school. i dont think irish class should just be about the language but about our history, our customs and even our folklore. if irish class is just about the language the argument we are having now will rage on forever. if irish class becomes about who we are as a people including our language it would be much more benefical.

has anyone here read the battle below giltspur? (i think thats what its called anyway)

i'd like to counter your question of "So why should I learn a language just to make you feel good about yourself?" with what does being irish mean to you?

It's a nationality, mainly. There isn't really much more to it. As i said, I like aspects of the Irish culture. But then I like aspects of German culture, I like askpects of Scandanavian culture.

But when it comes to Irish language, I felt nothing. It was completely alien to me. There's nohting worng or right or wrong about it, but forcing me to learn it was pointless and created animosity. I prefer the way the French language sounds. I'm not massively keen on German, but the more I learn the easier my life is.

Why I should feel an affinity for a lanugauge or culture purely becaue I was born there is something I've never understood. Should I like Jedward because they're Irish? Should I follow Celtic because they're (historically, anyway) Irish?

professore

At primary level we need to get kids speaking Irish. Forget about written Irish.

At second level I think we need a new compulsory subject called "Irish Culture". The whole subject should be through Irish. The old Irish subject should be made optional harder and suitable for native speakers and gaelscoil pupils.

Part of it (50% or so) would involve learning to speak useful conversational Irish fairly fluently that would be tested in an oral exam. The rest of it should be about the historical and cultural context of Irish and comparisons with other minority languages in other countries to see what other peoples have had to go through to keep their language. It should also look at Irish in it's place in the indo european languages etc. as Irish is considered to be one of the oldest languages in Europe and closest to the original languages spoken there before Latin influenced many of the others. It should be a relatively easy subject to do well in IF you do well in the spoken Irish part.

Irish is part of our culture. I was in an office with a Polish guy a few years ago and he made the point that what sort of a people are we to give up our own language? I had no proper answer for him.

Mike 1972

CatFromHue wrote: »

by not making certain subjects compulsory you're putting alot of responsibility on a 15 year old to choose subjects that will be relevant to his/her future life.

We let 11/12/13 year olds make subject choices when starting secondary school and I really dont see the problem.

Sure a lot of teenagers dont know exactly what they what they want to do with their lives (Hell a lot of 40 year olds out there still arent too sure) but they still have some notion about what subjects they enjoy and are any good at.

Rabble Rabble

fkt wrote: »

BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY F*CKING USE THEIR OWN LANGUAGE

Now that you put that in capitals, I see your point more clearly.








no I dont.

speedboatchase

Optional and that's it. Gaelic fascists realise that once the language becomes optional no-one will take it, as they'd most likely be more interested in languages or courses that will actually help them in life and employment, thus they patronise and guilt-trip people by telling them it's something that's 'nice to have' or that 'you should be proud of'.

The whole language is an expensive farce that shouldn't be supplemented by the rest of us and only available to those that want to take it. It's part of our culture, yes, but so is eating stew, GAA, unprotected sex and celebrity begrudgery - you shouldn't have to take part in it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

speedboatchase wrote: »

Optional and that's it. Gaelic fascists realise that once the language becomes optional no-one will take it, as they'd most likely be more interested in languages or courses that will actually help them in life and employment, thus they patronise and guilt-trip people by telling them it's something that's 'nice to have' or that 'you should be proud of'.

The whole language is an expensive farce that shouldn't be supplemented by the rest of us and only available to those that want to take it. It's part of our culture, yes, but so is eating stew, GAA, unprotected sex and celebrity begrudgery - you shouldn't have to take part in it.

Firstly, although I am not a strong advocate of the language, I distance myself from the use of the word "Fascist". It's casued problems in the past.

Secondly, how many kids take it depends on how well they teach it in the early years. You want a kid leaning irish? Get HIM to WANT to learn the language. It will live or die by how good or bad the primary school curriculum is. Also, don't expect him to learn it because he feels that's a strong part of his cultural and national heritage.

He's only 6.

Rabble Rabble

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why I should feel an affinity for a lanugauge or culture purely becaue I was born there is something I've never understood.

The reason you dont is because of the cultural domination of British English, and American English in Ireland. That sentence would make no sense to an Englishman with regards to English.

Language isn't about use, it is about culture.

That said i would make it non-compulsory. The nationalist working class would still learn it, there are seeds of pro-Irish language in the middle classes and Irish speaking schools. So it would survive.

Everybody else would have to explain that they didn't really bother to learn the language, when asked how to pronounce Teach Tabhairne by an American or English visitor. No more " I was the radical at school" but instead "I couldn't be assed". Which is fair enough, but I bet it will become fashionable to speak it as an adult if the mediocre minds don't.

Rabble Rabble

speedboatchase wrote: »

Optional and that's it. Gaelic fascists realise that once the language becomes optional no-one will take it, as they'd most likely be more interested in languages or courses that will actually help them in life and employment, thus they patronise and guilt-trip people by telling them it's something that's 'nice to have' or that 'you should be proud of'.

The whole language is an expensive farce that shouldn't be supplemented by the rest of us and only available to those that want to take it. It's part of our culture, yes, but so is eating stew, GAA, unprotected sex and celebrity begrudgery - you shouldn't have to take part in it.

Lol, fascist. You'd be the kind of guy who would, were the thing non-compulsory, make the rest of the country want to learn the language.

I agree with non-coercion though. No point having angry idiots learning a language they cant handle, or detest.

speedboatchase

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Firstly, although I am not a strong advocate of the language, I distance myself from the use of the word "Fascist". It's casued problems in the past.

Secondly, how many kids take it depends on how well the teach it in the early years. You want a kid leaning irish? Get HIM to WANT to ealrn the language. It will live or die by how good or bad the primary school curriculum is.

There is no material benefit to learning it whatsoever, unless you want to become a member of the gardai or an Irish teacher. I think people recognise that from a pretty early age. Even if the curriculum is amazing, people might weigh up what courses are important to their future career and decide to continue learning Irish as a hobby

dpe

As a foreigner I've always been amazed/amused by the arguments about the Irish language in this country, but not particularly bothered about it one way or another. However, now I have a child of my own, I guess I have to have more of an interest (my father-in-law keeps threating to give me a copy of Pieg - in English - to show "the depressing ****e we all had to go through reading that fecking book"). Thing is, I've been through a similar upbringing; I had to learn Welsh, and the daily usage and understanding of that language is far higher than the numbers for Irish. Why? All the same arguments apply about relevance, but you actually hear Welsh being spoken all over the country every day, when those people could all speak English if they wanted to.

Personally I think its partly because Welsh is simply easier to learn; they phoneticised large chunks of it and verb and tense wise its a lot like French, whereas I can't even begin to work out what the Hell's going on in Irish. Secondly I think its also how its taught. From my (dim and distant) memories of learning Welsh it was all very practical; I may be wrong but I don't get that impression when Irish people recount their school horror stories.

Rabble Rabble

speedboatchase wrote: »

There is no material benefit to learning it whatsoever, unless you want to become a member of the gardai or an Irish teacher. I think people recognise that from a pretty early age. Even if the curriculum is amazing, people might weigh up what courses are important to their future career and decide to continue learning Irish as a hobby

There is little use to history either, education is not about utilitarian principles. Otherwise we may as well send people to learn trade at 12.

( We should do that with some, actually)

Mike 1972

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Language isn't about use, it is about culture..

So if I ever move abroad I dont need to bother my @r$€; making an effort to learn the lingo ?

speedboatchase

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

There is little use to history either, education is not about utilitarian principles. Otherwise we may as well send people to learn trade at 12.

( We should do that with some, actually)

That's why history is optional - glad we're in agreement

Rabble Rabble

dpe wrote: »

As a foreigner I've always been amazed/amused by the arguments about the Irish language in this country, but not particularly bothered about it one way or another. However, now I have a child of my own, I guess I have to have more of an interest (my father-in-law keeps threating to give me a copy of Pieg - in English - to show "the depressing ****e we all had to go through reading that fecking book"). Thing is, I've been through a similar upbringing; I had to learn Welsh, and the daily usage and understanding of that language is far higher than the numbers for Irish. Why? All the same arguments apply about relevance, but you actually hear Welsh being spoken all over the country every day, when those people could all speak English if they wanted to.

Personally I think its partly because Welsh is simply easier to learn; they phoneticised large chunks of it and verb and tense wise its a lot like French, whereas I can't even begin to work out what the Hell's going on in Irish. Secondly I think its also how its taught. From my (dim and distant) memories of learning Welsh it was all very practical; I may be wrong but I don't get that impression when Irish people recount their school horror stories.

I think it is something else, the Welsh are more nationalist because of the continuing control from London and so speak welsh as that badge of identity.

"We may not have a State but here is our identity. This language. Cross the Severn and we are a different people."


( Well cross the Severn and go a bit inland).

Rabble Rabble

speedboatchase wrote: »

That's why history is optional - glad we're in agreement

I did say I was opposed to compulsion, so we were anyway, for different reasons.

Rabble Rabble

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So if I ever move abroad I dont need to bother my @r$€; making an effort to learn the lingo ?

I d say if you found Irish tough, you should go to an English speaking country - I bet most Irish people do.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

The reason you dont is because of the cultural domination of British English, and American English in Ireland. That sentence would make no sense to an Englishman with regards to English.

The reason WHO doesn't...? Sorry, but wrong pronoun there. Unless you know somethign about me that I don't.

Language isn't about use, it is about culture.

That said i would make it non-compulsory. The nationalist working class would still learn it, there are seeds of pro-Irish language in the middle classes and Irish speaking schools. So it would survive.

Everybody else would have to explain that they didn't really bother to learn the language, when asked how to pronounce Teach Tabhairne by an American or English visitor. No more " I was the radical at school" but instead "I couldn't be assed". Which is fair enough, but I bet it will become fashionable to speak it as an adult if the mediocre minds don't.

I was neither the radical not "couldn't be arsed". If I was a radical, I would have refused point blank, and I was happily "arsed" to do nealy all the other subjects. i was a solid B student in primary bar the Irish.

I just didn't like it, plain and simple. I didn't like learning the paino either. No difference.

speedboatchase wrote: »

There is no material benefit to learning it whatsoever, unless you want to become a member of the gardai or an Irish teacher. I think people recognise that from a pretty early age. Even if the curriculum is amazing, people might weigh up what courses are important to their future career and decide to continue learning Irish as a hobby

Could argue that learning a language makes it easier to learn other languages as a kid grows up.

jester77

I don't get why people are against removing it as a compulsory subject. Those that would drop it if they had the choice are not going to ever use or speak the language anyway. Those that are interested in the culture or want to become a teacher will keep it on. No one is losing out.

JayEnnis

Irish is the reason I'm not in college now. Or maybe more so the teacher/way its taught. I think out of my whole leaving cert class the majority failed. I was convinced I was going to fail so the only courses I could put on my cao were for non NUI colleges (DIT, DCU etc..) These colleges all have higher points than the NUI's so I got screwed over by 5 points on my number one course that I could have done in an NUI for 10 points less.

Rabble Rabble

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The reason WHO doesn't...? Sorry, but wrong pronoun there. Unless you know somethign about me that I don't.

Jeez, dont get upset. Heres a handkerchief. To put this quote in context you said you dont have affinity for the language, I said this was due to English domination.

Thats why you dont. Otherwise you would be speaking Irish naturally; and have the same affinity for it as a Finn does for Finnish, or a French man for French, or an Englishman for English.

Rabble Rabble

JayEnnis wrote: »

Irish is the reason I'm not in college now. Or maybe more so the teacher/way its taught. I think out of my whole leaving cert class the majority failed. I was convinced I was going to fail so the only courses I could put on my cao were for non NUI colleges (DIT, DCU etc..) These colleges all have higher points than the NUI's so I got screwed over by 5 points on my number one course that I could have done in an NUI for 10 points less.

I do think that is unfair. In fact I think we should go back to the old system where maths got you more points for a mathematical subject and Irish should not be compulsory for any college.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Jeez, dont get upset. Heres a handkerchief. To put this quote in context you said you dont have affinity for the language, I said this was due to English domination.

Thats why you dont. Otherwise you would be speaking Irish naturally; and have the same affinity for it as a Finn does for Finnish, or a French man for French, or an Englishman for English.

Nah, not upset, just one of my pet hates ! Your theory is still very much wrong though. It's not wise to assume that if one thing hadn't happened everything else would have fallen nicely into place.

Mike 1972

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

you should go to an English speaking country - I bet most Irish people do.

Theyre not doing it right

TheRevolution

To be perfectly honest Irish should definitely be a choice. With the competition these days for jobs and the increasingly more globalized economy theres no way that I'd want my son or daughter wasting time learning a language for sentiment that could be better spent taking up a different language that is actually used and could help to secure them jobs or be more attractive to MNCs.

The worst part is that the majority of teachers are so bad that kids literally spend 15 years learning the language, every day of school and at the end the vast majority can't even speak more than a cupla focal.

hoorsmelt

bluewolf wrote: »

I would prefer a different language be taught in primary school, and two languages be required for JC/LC with Irish option. I love Irish but I don't think it should be compulsory. It's also taught pretty badly.

And here we reach the crux of the issue- gaeilge is being taught poorly, which attaches alot of resentment towards the language on the part of those who had bad teachers etc. I still think that the anti-gaeilge crowd are driven in part by guilt- I think everyone feels guilty when we look at the state the language is in and realise you can't speak it as well as you used to or can't speak it at all. It's something in our national psyche, and some of the obvious cultural problems in this country like alcoholism and general dysfunction, are also rife in other ethno-linguistic groups that have lost their language like the Native American tribes, the Aborigines, or indigenous Siberians.

Mike 1972

hoorsmelt wrote: »

I still think that the anti-gaeilge crowd are driven in part by guilt.

Obtained the necessary medical qualifications AND interviewed all of them personally have we ?

wench

Aimsigh wrote: »

It contributes over 100 Million to the Economy of Galway alone every year.

Irish language worth €136 million to Galway

However the actual report that headline was pulled from says that €95 million of that is state support.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Irish-dancing should be a mandatory leaving cert subject. Irish men not being able to dance a proper reel is an embarrassment. When foreigners ask me to Irish-dance for them, I just don't know what to tell them.
C'mon people it's part of our culture.

hoorsmelt

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Obtained the necessary medical qualifications AND interviewed all of them personally have we ?

Aggression is a trait that is often to be found among the guilty, and the amount of aggression used towards the language by quite a few of its opponents suggests that there is something to this. I haven't done a survey myself, but it would be interesting to do.

Mike 1972

hoorsmelt wrote: »

the amount of aggression used towards the language by quite a few of its opponents

Does advocating forcing it on other people not constitute a form of aggression too ?

Not to mention branding anyone who might question any aspect of public policy or popular perception regarding the language as an "opponent"

hoorsmelt

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Does advocating forcing it on other people not constitute a form of aggression too ?

Is it aggression if you're forced into doing higher mathematics too when you've no wish to use it later on in life or in doing English if you don't want to do it? One could say the same about most compulsory things in life like paying tax in that it is aggression and carries far greater penalties than if you do badly in Irish or bribe a doctor to give you an exemption certificate.

hoorsmelt

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

Irish-dancing should be a mandatory leaving cert subject. Irish men not being able to dance a proper reel is an embarrassment. When foreigners ask me to Irish-dance for them, I just don't know what to tell them.
C'mon people it's part of our culture.

It's not though: Irish dancing as you understand it is a relatively modern phenomena, having been standardised only in the last hundred years and being based on one form only, the Munster form of stepdancing. There is significant regional variation among the traditional forms. In any case, dancing is relatively peripheral to ones culture unless you choose to adopt it as a defining trait. Language is central, which is why Irish should remain compulsory.

hoorsmelt

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Not to mention branding anyone who might question any aspect of public policy or popular perception regarding the language as an "opponent"

If you'll read my posts you'll see I advocated a change in the way the language is taught. It's not unfair to label many of those taking part in this thread (not necessarily including yourself) as opponents of the language when you see them wishing death on it, attacking those who see it as a key part of our cultural heritage as 'gaeilge-fascists' or deriding gaeilge as 'useless'.

Mike 1972

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Is it aggression if you're forced into doing higher mathematics.

Nobody is forced into doing higher mathematics surely ?

hoorsmelt

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Nobody is forced into doing higher mathematics surely ?

Sorry I was unclear on the last point, I meant mathematics for the leaving cert, honours or pass. I was pretty clear about what I wanted to do by the time I was in JC, had nothing to do with maths, yet I was forced to waste my time and the teachers doing things I haven't used in years and am unlikely to use ever again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Aggression is a trait that is often to be found among the guilty, and the amount of aggression used towards the language by quite a few of its opponents suggests that there is something to this. I haven't done a survey myself, but it would be interesting to do.

As long as said survey clearly defined the difference between "anti-Irish" and "just don't think it should be prioritised".

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Sorry I was unclear on the last point, I meant mathematics for the leaving cert, honours or pass. I was pretty clear about what I wanted to do by the time I was in JC, had nothing to do with maths, yet I was forced to waste my time and the teachers doing things I haven't used in years and am unlikely to use ever again.

So you don;t support subjects being complsory for the leaving them?

hoorsmelt

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So you don;t support subjects being complsory for the leaving them?

Certain subjects. Maths, despite my gripes with it, should be compulsory, as should English, Irish and a new Civics subject (which is necessary- CSPE just doesn't cut it and we need a serious change in mindframe if we are to improve this countrys future). I was making that point to show how silly a point it is to say that compulsory Irish is aggression.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Sorry I was unclear on the last point, I meant mathematics for the leaving cert, honours or pass. I was pretty clear about what I wanted to do by the time I was in JC, had nothing to do with maths, yet I was forced to waste my time and the teachers doing things I haven't used in years and am unlikely to use ever again.

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Certain subjects. Maths, despite my gripes with it, should be compulsory, as should English, Irish and a new Civics subject (which is necessary- CSPE just doesn't cut it and we need a serious change in mindframe if we are to improve this countrys future). I was making that point to show how silly a point it is to say that compulsory Irish is aggression.

What is the parctical use of stating the bit in bold above and they saying it was the right thing to do??

Dostoevsky

Aimsigh wrote: »

I have seen some amazing feets of Logical dexterity when it comes to arguing against Irish, If the language's detractors are to be believed Irish is a Dead peasent language with loads of made up words, that is too purist to borrow words from other languages, that everyone hates and is spoken by elitists who only send their kids to Gaelscoils for racist reasons.



If rich people don't speak Irish it's a peasant language, if they do its a snob language.

When students are mandated merely to sit in an Irish class for two hours a week by their school to receive a capitation grant, Irish is being forced upon them, yet people chose to speak English out of their own free will, this despite all education, administration, legislation, commerce and even religion having been mandated (by ecclesiastical or governmental authority) to be conducted through English (or English and latin).

If the Gaelscoileanna are underpopulated, it's because people hate Irish, but if they are overpopulated it's because parents are racist, not because people love Irish.

If Irish speakers don't speak Irish in public, it's because they don't exist, if they do they're trying to prevent foreigners from hearing them, or are purposely being rude.

If there is no employment in Irish, it's because Irish is a useless language not worth learning, if there is, it's because Irish speakers are selfishly wanting government money for themselves.

If Irish has more borrowings than English, it's because Irish is an inferior language with a limited vocabularly, if it has less, it's because Irish isn't as open to borrowings or as international as English.

If a person is good at Irish, it's because of their own personal ability and natural flare for languages, if a person is bad at Irish it's because of the teacher.



Needless to say, this list is hardly exaustive, has anyone got a few more examples?

Excellent post. The bigotry and double standards of the anti-Irish lobby is worthy of England's Edmund Spenser.

Dostoevsky

JayEnnis wrote: »

Irish is the reason I'm not in college now. Or maybe more so the teacher/way its taught. I think out of my whole leaving cert class the majority failed. I was convinced I was going to fail so the only courses I could put on my cao were for non NUI colleges (DIT, DCU etc..) These colleges all have higher points than the NUI's so I got screwed over by 5 points on my number one course that I could have done in an NUI for 10 points less.

"the reason"? And for countless other Irish people compulsory Mathematics or English is "the reason" why they are not in college. There's clearly a problem with the way Irish is taught, and that needs to be changed. But most if not all of the subjects on the Irish LC curriculum need to be taught differently, if not radically differently. In the same mode, Irish parents need to be more interested in their children's education.

Dostoevsky

speedboatchase wrote: »

...Gaelic fascists....

This thread has officially reached retard level.

elefant

This is quite an interesting thread, and I've found it interesting to read the opinions on this.

Personally, I'm very proud of the Irish language. I'm not totally fluent, but I'm well capable of having a conversation in Irish. This is mainly due to my father and the fact I went to a semi-gaelscoil for primary school. I spent last year living in Europe, and that has made me more defensive than ever about speaking Irish. I really wish I could speak another European language fluently, but I don't think that should be at the cost of not knowing Irish.

The problem is, as many people have said here, the way Irish is taught. I think the oral exam should be the vast majority of marks in the Leaving Cert. I don't think anyone is going to be too worried if they can't write Irish with perfect grammar, but I think it's a very special thing for two people to be able to converse in a language that is unique to their country. I was always jealous of Finns I know when they could speak their national language to each other, and then turn around and speak English to me just as well.

I got an a1 in my leaving cert Irish, and I probably did better than a lot of lads who speak Irish every day of their lives. I think that's wrong. I also am beginning to be swayed to the idea of Irish being elective, because I've always firmly believed you will learn best the things you want to learn. I know I would have done Irish for the LC anyway.

(I also think 4th years should have to spend a few weeks on exchange in a school somewhere else in Europe so they see the benefits of having a second language as a life skill, and not as a means of getting points in the leaving, but that's another kettle of fish).

Dudess

jester77 wrote: »

I don't get why people are against removing it as a compulsory subject. Those that would drop it if they had the choice are not going to ever use or speak the language anyway. Those that are interested in the culture or want to become a teacher will keep it on. No one is losing out.

Yep, forcing it on people is only going to make them want it to disappear even more.

Dostoevsky

Kettle316 wrote: »

Learning Irish in school is a pain in the arse

Yes, I can just see the average Irish student dancing around with joy in the classrooms of other subjects, because they are so fascinatingly interesting - not to mention the amazing usefulness to the modern world of, for instance, Shakespearian poetry (which is compulsory).

Hookah

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Shakespearian poetry (which is compulsory).

Shakespearean sonnets have seductive value, at least.

Haelium

Can one of you Gaelgoire nazis explain to me why an otherwise successful student should be denied a college education because they fail Irish?

Haelium

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Yes, I can just see the average Irish student dancing around with joy in the classrooms of other subjects, because they are so fascinatingly interesting - not to mention the amazing usefulness to the modern world of, for instance, Shakespearian poetry (which is compulsory).

The purpose of Shakespearian poetry is to improve linguistic and comprehension skills. Functional English is enough, but a mastery of English is an advantage.

And let's face it, most students you ask will say that they hate the other subjects less than they hate Irish.

hoorsmelt

Haelium wrote: »

Can one of you Gaelgoire nazis explain to me why an otherwise successful student should be denied a college education because they fail Irish?

They're not: only in NUIG and NUIM and for certain courses that need Irish such as solicitors who may need to use the language in the court room and who need to have a functional knowledge of Irish for constitutional law, amendments etc.