Going to court for guardianship of child

shiz

Hi all,

An anxious father here looking for some advice on what to expect in an up and coming court application for guardianship?

Ill try keep this short. Me and my ex have a 9 year old boy. We split up before he was 3. I've always paid maintanence (this is agreed by ourselves) and have always had regular access. At the moment i take him one night every weekend or for two nights every other weekend) This is not set in stone. I work very unsocial hours and appreciate that this arrangement is flexible to suit my work. Generally i would also take him after school for a few hours one day per week (not every week but the majority).

Recently my ex refused my request for legal guardianship but said that i can have joint custody instead. I live 50+ km away with my partner and we are expecting a baby later this year (the 1st time she ever said that i can have joint custody is around the time she found out my partner was pregnant) I don't think joint custody is practical at this moment in time for 1) taking my son away from his mother and sister for half a week every week and 2) i don't have the flexibility from work for this to work either.

I've been to see a solicitor and they have applied for the court application for guardianship. How will the judge look on this case that i am turning down joint custody ? I really don't want to go down the route of having a written agreement telling me what days i have to pick up and leave back my child. I am happy with the current arrangement and most importantly so is my son. The solicitor seems to think we'll have to come to some kind of deal with the other party before hand?

I'd greatly appreciate any help/thoughts/advice/criticism on the above or how the situation is likely to go.

Thanks.

Sleepy

I have to admit, I've limited sympathy here for you OP. You're effectively saying that you only want to be a father to your son when it suits you and your ex has over-indulged you in this to date.

Joint custody is something you should be delighted to be getting. If you need to re-arrange your work affairs so be it, tbh, lack of freedom to work/play when you want is the usual "cost" of parenthood. You've been largely sheltered from this to-date. Maybe your second child will teach you this?

shiz

Sleepy wrote: »

I have to admit, I've limited sympathy here for you OP. You're effectively saying that you only want to be a father to your son when it suits you and your ex has over-indulged you in this to date.

Joint custody is something you should be delighted to be getting. If you need to re-arrange your work affairs so be it, tbh, lack of freedom to work/play when you want is the usual "cost" of parenthood. You've been largely sheltered from this to-date. Maybe your second child will teach you this?

Thanks for the reply Sleepy

I take my responsibilities of being a father very seriously so no i don't only want to be a father when it suits me. I work hard for the benefit of my son so i am well aware about the lack of freedom involved in work and play. I am always there for my him and he and his mother know that.

Joint custody is something i would be delighted to get and please god some day he will be living with me but at the moment its being done for the wrong reasons. I've only been offered this since she found out i was living with my partner and going to be a father again. Any time in the past when i mentioned anything about custody i was threatened so as you can see this is not done for our sons benefit? I am sure you can imagine aswell this will also cause a major dissruption to my sons life to be taken away from his family and home town for 50% of the time?

As previously stated work is unflexible and has unsocialable hours. I am on a temporary contract and hopefully will be made permanent within the next year and a half. Unfortunately the only other alternative is leaving my job totally and living off the dole. I don't think anybody would benefit from that?

common sense brigade

As previously stated work is unflexible and has unsocialable hours. I am on a temporary contract and hopefully will be made permanent within the next year and a half.

if only full time fathers and mothers had the convenience of not accepting full custody of their children! because of working hours. whatever ur ex's motives you should except joint custody and step up to the mark. sorry but if your hours are not suitable you will have to pay for childcare or get another job like every other parent in the country .

shiz

common sense brigade wrote: »

if only full time fathers and mothers had the convenience of not accepting full custody of their children! because of working hours. whatever ur ex's motives you should except joint custody and step up to the mark. sorry but if your hours are not suitable you will have to pay for childcare or get another job like every other parent in the country .

Thanks for the reply.

Paying for childcare is not a problem but the purpose of joint custody is to spend time with me and not a childminder.

Unemployment is very high were i come from. Getting another job would mean me having to move further away and therefore end up spending less time with my son.

You didn't comment on the part were i said that this would be a major dissruption to his life. Does that not matter?

Orion

Guardianship and custody are separate things. The former gives you a legal say in things affecting the child and the right to be consulted for passport applications, medical procedures etc. The latter gives you the right/duty to access to the child. Unless there is good cause (abuse, neglect, etc) the court will most likely grant guardianship without hesitation.

Custody is something you will need to work out yourselves but the court can be used to intervene in custody arrangements also.

Personally I think other posters are being quite unfair here - things are not always as black and white as people would like. Of course the child must be considered - in fact if it went to court it would be the primary consideration over and above your or the mother's feelings. Hopefully you can both come to some arrangement. Either way it should have no impact on your gurdianship application.

shiz

Thanks Macros for your help

LegacyUser

You are in the same situation as me, my son and his father bar (except the cutody part)

My sons dad works 3 12hr shifts a week and one month being nights at the weekends so he come's down during the week one day after school and takes my son to the cinema or bowling then for a bite to eat. He did take him for the night during the week and he wanted to continue that but I put my foot down as he has to have a routine during school nights.

This situation works for me, my son and his dad. For me because I don't like my son to be away at his dads EVERY weekend, my son gets to see him every week and the time they spend together is good quality instead of having to be freating about juggling day to day commitments.

I think everyone here needs to stop coming out with the 'i'd walk to the moon and back for my child' attitude. YES I would do that for my child if it comes to it and i'm sure OP would too, but there is simply no need to in this case!
The child is loved and by both parents, I quite disagree with joint custody.. i'd hate to be 9 years old and living in two places, I would never feel like i'd belong in either place and from a mother side of view, me seeing my son only half a week would kill me inside.

And two seperated parents raising a child have to find balance and a routine that suits both parents, why make an issue out of something that is working.

OP maybe the mother thinks that once the new baby arrives that you will not want your son there, rarely have time for him, visits start to dwindle, son feels left out. This is one of my fears I have about my sons dad, I feel when he is going to settle down my son is going to be forgotton and I actually believe that it may even happen, but who knows. So she could be doing this as she's freaking out about that fear too.
Has she ever made an issue out of any of the pregnancy,your partner and the new arrival?
(maybe a little reassurance and make sure your son is involved just the same when he/she comes along?)

What is her reasoning behind joint custody?

James Jones

Don't worry, Shiz.
She's offering you Joint Custody which is a misnomer. The term sounds like 50/50 shared parenting BUT what it really means is that the child lives with her and you pay maintenance.
Most people get fooled by the terminology but, as THIS REPORT points out, "In divorce cases where dependent children were an issue, all children continued to live with their mother, with fathers having joint custody"!!! (How can a child possibly live with the mother if the father has joint custody, I hear you say!):rolleyes:

Just ask her what arrangements she would like and when should you stop paying maintenance?
You'll probably find out fairly quickly that she isn't offering REAL joint custody but the Irish Family Law makey-upy joint custody. By the way, guardianship is much more important than custody. If you don't get guardianship. she can leave the country without you having any say in the matter. Custody simply regulates the living arrangements of the child.

shiz

mirrormammy wrote: »

You are in the same situation as me, my son and his father bar (except the cutody part)

My sons dad works 3 12hr shifts a week and one month being nights at the weekends so he come's down during the week one day after school and takes my son to the cinema or bowling then for a bite to eat. He did take him for the night during the week and he wanted to continue that but I put my foot down as he has to have a routine during school nights.

This situation works for me, my son and his dad. For me because I don't like my son to be away at his dads EVERY weekend, my son gets to see him every week and the time they spend together is good quality instead of having to be freating about juggling day to day commitments.

I think everyone here needs to stop coming out with the 'i'd walk to the moon and back for my child' attitude. YES I would do that for my child if it comes to it and i'm sure OP would too, but there is simply no need to in this case!
The child is loved and by both parents, I quite disagree with joint custody.. i'd hate to be 9 years old and living in two places, I would never feel like i'd belong in either place and from a mother side of view, me seeing my son only half a week would kill me inside.

And two seperated parents raising a child have to find balance and a routine that suits both parents, why make an issue out of something that is working.

OP maybe the mother thinks that once the new baby arrives that you will not want your son there, rarely have time for him, visits start to dwindle, son feels left out. This is one of my fears I have about my sons dad, I feel when he is going to settle down my son is going to be forgotton and I actually believe that it may even happen, but who knows. So she could be doing this as she's freaking out about that fear too.
Has she ever made an issue out of any of the pregnancy,your partner and the new arrival?
(maybe a little reassurance and make sure your son is involved just the same when he/she comes along?)

What is her reasoning behind joint custody?

Thanks for taking the time for sharing your exeprience and giving your views. It's good to know that there are others in the same situation.

I think her offering joint custody at this stage is definately linked to me becoming a father again. I've tried to reassure her that nothing is going to change with regards to our son and i am not just going to forget about him. Infact i believe and told her that it will be better for our son because it will be a more homely atmosphere when the new baby arrives. Communication is non existant now because of the impending court case but hopefully when its all over we'll get back talking again.

You and your ex seem to have a good civil relationship. Any tips!?

shiz

James Jones wrote: »

Don't worry, Shiz.
She's offering you Joint Custody which is a misnomer. The term sounds like 50/50 shared parenting BUT what it really means is that the child lives with her and you pay maintenance.
Most people get fooled by the terminology but, as THIS REPORT points out, "In divorce cases where dependent children were an issue, all children continued to live with their mother, with fathers having joint custody"!!! (How can a child possibly live with the mother if the father has joint custody, I hear you say!):rolleyes:

Just ask her what arrangements she would like and when should you stop paying maintenance?
You'll probably find out fairly quickly that she isn't offering REAL joint custody but the Irish Family Law makey-upy joint custody. By the way, guardianship is much more important than custody. If you don't get guardianship. she can leave the country without you having any say in the matter. Custody simply regulates the living arrangements of the child.

Cheers James Jones. To be honest i don't know exactly what she is offering! Court hearing this week so i'll soon find out!

smelltheglove

OP I agree wtih mirrormammy. You have to work and if you and your ex were still together you would as a unit arrange things around your working hours. Now that you are not together you should not have to arrange your work around your child, yes ok childcare if necessity or if there are days between you that you both have to work you need to arrange care between both of you and pay it equally.

I dont get the attitude of full time parents not having this option, full time parents work as a unity and often work around each other and childcare.

My own ex works unsociable hours and before my child started school he could take her whatever day she was off, until recently he took her all weekend every second weekend but a new business venture has him working all the hours god sends so he takes her when he can. I am perfectly happy with the situation, she understands, I know he gets worked up sometimes that he doesnt see her enough but at this moment in time he needs to be in work and she will be here for him whenever he has the time.

Why not accept joint custody, as mentioned its not strictly 50/50 as it is often assumed, you pretty much have joint custody anyway and go for the guardianship. I agree wtih you though that taking him away from his sister and his home 50% of the time would disrupt him, and sure what about school etc, it just wouldnt work if you are not living close by.

I think you need to sit down with your ex and find out exactly what it is she wants and her reasons for not allowing you guardianship, there is no reason for you not to have it.

champie

My ex has joint custody but hasn't seen his son in months. Joint Custody doesn't mean 50/50 living arrangement it just means you have a say in the childs up bringing education, travel, medical etc but not quite as much as being a guardian. well thats my understanding

You sound like a genuine father trying to do his best please don't forget about your child when new baby arrives it's extremely hard on the child to acccept this is the voice of experience :rolleyes:

James Jones

champie wrote: »

Joint Custody doesn't mean 50/50 living arrangement it just means you have a say in the childs up bringing education, travel, medical etc but not quite as much as being a guardian. well thats my understanding

Custody is to do with living arrangements but Guardianship is the legal relationship between parent and child and means that both Guardians have an equal and joint say on guardianship matters.

champie

Surely a 50/50 living arrangement isn't practical since father lives 50+km from childs mother. and it would be to disruptive for child with regards to school etc the courts have to be practical. Courts are supposed to have childs best interests or have I too much faith in the system!!

Surely it would be better if parents could come to a sensible agreement and get it legalised (not sure if thats even a word) by a solicitor

krankykitty

Perhaps your ex is offering you custody now as she fears that when your new baby arrives that you may have even less time for your son than you do at the moment, whereas if you have joint custody, taking him into your new family is part of your life? I only say this as I have seen this happening myself, where the parents of a child split up, and the non-fulltime parent meets another partner and has another child... it almost seems as the first child takes on a second class status within the new family, becoming almost an intrusion on the "new" family.

I'm not saying this is what would happen with you OP, however it might explain why your ex is now offering you the full custody. She may be trying to protect your son rather than trying to make your life difficult.

Hope you work it out..

shiz

Thank you all very much for the input!

Some of you have suggested she may be doing this because she thinks i'll forget about our son when the new baby comes along. I have chatted to her about this and tried to reasurre her that this will not happen. I've told her that i will be living in a more homely environment and that our son has a big part to play in this.

Just a wee update on the court application. It was due to be heard this week but has been adjourned as ex is looking for free legal aid and therefore didn't have a solicitor to represent her. Very disappointing and frustrating!

rolly1

I would suggest giving family mediation a go before court. The Court experience alone nearly always leaves further acrimony amongst parents, due to it's adversarial nature. The family mediation service is also free. This doesn't mean you would have to do away with the court action, just adjourn it to see how mediation goes. Your solicitor should have informed you of this option, as it is a mandatory requirement upon him/her under Part IV, section 2 of the 1997 Children Act.

It's highly likely that you will get guardianship in court as there is over a 90% success rate for those applying. However, long term, it may be better in terms of family harmony to at least explore mediation first.

It's more important to have guardianship than custody. Custody, as it's set up in this country, means very little when you are a man; whereas being a Guardian with the mother jointly means having a solid legal footing on all major welfare decisions relating to your child. These include school choice, religion, medical treatments along with where your child lives.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

The Corinthian

To begin with it seems bizarre that your ex is willing to accept joint custody with a man who, unless he is a guardian, would be a legal stranger to his child. Is it even possible to have joint custody legally in such circumstances?

Secondly, joint custody opens up other cans of worms - most notably maintenance. After all, you pay maintenance for the upkeep of your child, not her, so if you end up maintaining your child for three or four days a week, is she going to receive the same level of maintenance for a child who's not with her, while you pay extra for the additional time he's with you?

As for applying for guardianship, given your involvement and the present climate, I would imagine you would almost certainly get it via the courts. Given this, bringing her to court may well damage relations with your ex and this too is something you need to consider.

Overall, I would concur with the suggestion that the two of you should go for mediation first, as I think there's a lot of confusion taking place. Why does she oppose guardianship? How linked are her objections to the impending arrival of a new child? Is her offer of joint custody 'official' or is she simply offering this as a private agreement?

My feeling is that your having another child has a lot to do with both her refusal to give you guardianship as her offer to give you joint custody, and I think that her fears and everyone's general confusion would be better first explored in mediation before letting loose the dogs of legal war.