Specsavers Ireland vs. UK - ripoff!

davo10

What business is it of yours what a GP makes?, your only concern should be if the GP is good and whether you are willing to pay the fee charged, if not, check around to find a cheaper one.

In regard to visits, do you think every visit lasts 10 mins, what if it takes 30 mins to discuss an illness with a patient, what if he is called away from clinic for an hour to do a home visit etc etc. what about staff costs, rates, mortgage, tax, heating, esb, telephone, the huge indemnity insurance GP's must pay for. Surely you do not think the GP gets to keep the full visit fee.

As with all services, if you are not happy, go somewhere else.

tomdublin

davo10 wrote: »

What business is it of yours what a GP makes?, your only concern should be if the GP is good and whether you are willing to pay the fee charged, if not, check around to find a cheaper one.

In regard to visits, do you think every visit lasts 10 mins, what if it takes 30 mins to discuss an illness with a patient, what if he is called away from clinic for an hour to do a home visit etc etc. what about staff costs, rates, mortgage, tax, heating, esb, telephone, the huge indemnity insurance GP's must pay for. Surely you do not think the GP gets to keep the full visit fee.

As with all services, if you are not happy, go somewhere else.

strange that someone can be so defensive on behalf of a blatantly parasitic special interest group many of whose members are enriching themselves on the backs of the sick and vulnerable simply because they can.

davo10

Of course GP's make a living off the sick, well people usually don't go to the Doctor. Doctors are not parasites, like any other service provider, they offer a service which people can choose to avail of.

As for "enriching themselves", clinics are small businesses and the aim as with all businesses is to make a profit . GP's are not Samaritans and their business is not philanthropic.

If you do not want to pay a Doctor, don't go. Same with opticians, dentists, hair dressers, restaurants, dry cleaners etc etc

tomdublin

davo10 wrote: »

Of course GP's make a living off the sick, well people usually don't go to the Doctor. Doctors are not parasites, like any other service provider, they offer a service which people can choose to avail of.

If you do not want to pay a Doctor, don't go. Same with opticians, dentists, hair dressers, restaurants, dry cleaners etc etc

No, it's not the same. Unlike GPs, hairdressers and dry cleaners provide services people can forego without risking their health or even their lives. High barriers to entry in the medical profession (which are necessary) and limited geographical mobility of the service users (if you are sick you don't want to travel to the other end of town to save ten Euro, and you can't order a GP online) mean that competitive pressures will not significantly reduce prices. For that reason GP fees are capped in every European country apart form Ireland where the IMO's stranglehold over the political process is enormous (as is again evident as we speak....)

davo10

In which countries are private GPs prices capped? The IMO cannot set high fees, it would be anti-competitive and illegal. The IMO is a representative body only, it can negotiate on medical card fees but not private fees.

The Government cannot interfere with a private industry no more than it can interfere with the prices charged by restaurants, shoe shops, or manufacturing companies etc. The market sets the price and in this case as with every other, the consumer wants to pay as little as possible, the provider wants to charge as much as possible and the real price is somewhere in between.

tomdublin

davo10 wrote: »

In which countries are private GPs prices capped?

In every country with some form of social insurance model (i.e. every West European country apart from Ireland and the UK) insurance companies set the maximum price they pay for a consultation (sometimes it's set by the government instead). In some systems GPs are free to charge more if they wish, but in reality very few do as patients are generally not willing to pay the difference out of their own pocket and they can always find another GP who works within the insurance framework. That's why a German, French or Danish GP earns 20 Euro for a consultation and his Irish colleague three times more and that's why the IMO will probably kill of any attempt to introduce a social insurance model in Ireland.

davo10

I'm afraid you do not understand the economics of the issue. In Germany there is a very high taxation rate which includes a contribution towards medical insurance. This benefits only those who use the service and penalises those who do not. Would you be willing to pay a much higher insurance contribution every week to have lower cost GP visits.

The medical card provides free medical care for a large proportion of the Irish population.

Also the German model you refer to applies only to participating GP's, private GPs are free to charge what they like same as in Ireland.

Most EU countries educate many more medical students than Ireland, I have no idea how much it costs the State to run a medical school nor how much it costs to educate each student but I bet it's a pretty penny.

tomdublin

davo10 wrote: »

I'm afraid you do not understand the economics of the issue. In Germany there is a very high taxation rate which includes a contribution towards medical insurance. This benefits only those who use the service and penalises those who do not. Would you be willing to pay a much higher insurance contribution every week to have lower cost GP visits.

The medical card provides free medical care for a large proportion of the Irish population.

Also the German model you refer to applies only to participating GP's, private GPs are free to charge what they like same as in Ireland.

As for private GPs and hospitals yes that's what I'm saying there are some, but it's only a very small proportion (I don't know the precise figure off my head but you can look it up easily). I'm generally pretty pro free market but health is different as it's not really a service that anyone "wants" to use. Making sure that everyone who is sick can afford to see a doctor is just the way a civilized society should operate, and if that means that GPs will only earn 15,000 Euro a month instead of 50,000 then that's a price worth paying.

davo10

Again, in Ireland you pay only if you need to see a GP, in Germany everyone must pay high insurance contributions from their wages regardless if you need to see a GP or not, so each year you pay a lot more than a "fee per item" system.

Your figures assume that every patient is a private patient paying €60 per visit. I have no idea what the percentage is but I bet with the significant increase in the number of people who possess medical cards, private patients are a low percentage of average daily patients seen by a GP.

tomdublin

davo10 wrote: »

Again, in Ireland you pay only if you need to see a GP, in Germany everyone must pay high insurance contributions from their wages regardless if you need to see a GP or not, so each year you pay a lot more than a "fee per item" system.

Your figures assume that every patient is a private patient paying €60 per visit. I have no idea what the percentage is but I bet with the significant increase in the number of people who possess medical cards, private patients are a low percentage of average daily patients seen by a GP.

Yes that's the idea of insurance... but the premiums you pay are based on your ability to pay (high income earners pay more while low incomes are subsidized on a sliding scale), and the system is completely free at the point of use. As an overall proportion of GDP Germany doesn't spend much more on its health system than Ireland. Doctors earn much less (but still a decent enough wage), and there is no HSE-style bureaucracy packed with PR advisers, HR consultants and similar wasters. The system has its faults but overall it's quite equitable and efficient and extremely popular.

davo10

Tom I can't argue with you about the merits of the German or French medical model, thankfully my dealing with GPs extends only to a twice yearly visit to get prescriptions for salbutamol for which I pay €50 each time. But if the Givernment were to increase taxes to German/French/Danish levels to improve the Health system, you would have a lot of resistance from the hard pressed tax payers here.

The fees charged in the countries you mention are based on an insurance scheme as you have rightly pointed out but we do not have the advantages nor disadvantages such a scheme would impart.

My viewpoint on your post is based only on your assumption that every patient a GP sees means he is paid €60 and that he/she gets to keep that whole fee to spend as wished, this is simply not true. Everyone would like a better, more efficiently run health system where fees are low and quality is high but this will never happen unless we are willing to pay more taxes which would cost considerably more than the occasional €60 fee when you need to avail of a GPs services.

tomdublin

davo10 wrote: »

Tom I can't argue with you about the merits of the German or French medical model, thankfully my dealing with GPs extends only to a twice yearly visit to get prescriptions for salbutamol for which I pay €50 each time. But if the Givernment were to increase taxes to German/French/Danish levels to improve the Health system, you would have a lot of resistance from the hard pressed tax payers here.

The fees charged in the countries you mention are based on an insurance scheme as you have rightly pointed out but we do not have the advantages nor disadvantages such a scheme would impart.

My viewpoint on your post is based only on your assumption that every patient a GP sees means he is paid €60 and that he/she gets to keep that whole fee to spend as wished, this is simply not true. Everyone would like a better, more efficiently run health system where fees are low and quality is high but this will never happen unless we are willing to pay more taxes which would cost considerably more than the occasional €60 fee when you need to avail of a GPs services.

I buy my Salbutamol in Spain :-) No GP-prescription ripoff and it costs much less.

davo10

So do I by the dozen, its the thing that does piss me off, that here I need a prescription for it. But if I don't go abroad for a year, I have to see a GP.

To finish off, even for €60 a visit, I still couldn't do the job a GP does, to many sick people.

minkynuts

Today I had to go to the GP, I was in the surgery less than 2 mins and I told him my symptoms, he wrot a script and I walked out to pay 50 Euros for two mins, taking into account delays between patients entering that still gets him €1000.00 an hour, I have had my pay cut by a third to keep my bass in business
Pay cuts to GPs have never been heard of

sandin

minkynuts wrote: »

Today I had to go to the GP, I was in the surgery less than 2 mins and I told him my symptoms, he wrot a script and I walked out to pay 50 Euros for two mins, taking into account delays between patients entering that still gets him €1000.00 an hour, I have had my pay cut by a third to keep my bass in business
Pay cuts to GPs have never been heard of

So how did he know your symptoms? - Was it pure guesswork?

Or possibly was it becasue he went through 7 years of college and was able to understand your symptoms due to his learned knowledge?

And you also assume that its 2 minutes for EVERY patient (I'll bet it was a lot more than 2 mins for you, as in 2 mins you barely be able to expaling the issues)

I see women getting hair done and paying €120 for 2 hours of sitting in a chair - does that equate to a hardresser getting €60/hour or €480 a day or almost €2500 aweek or 125k a year - methinks not

OR joe Duffy who gets paid €286,000 for doing 1hour 15 minute a day for 210 days a year, thats €1000 an hour under your calculations too!

minkynuts

When you have a pain in the shoulder , you know the symptoms "pain in the shoulder". And yes I was in ther sugery 2 mins I times it as I had had this before . And Sandin if I think a service is too costly I can shop around for a better deal, the GPs have a monopoly, I can Turn Joe Duffy offbut when I am ill I cannot shop around for the doctor, I have to go to the Dr who has my records. before I retiurned to Ireland I worked in England and the Doctors there did not have a gravy train as they do here

davo10

Good article in today's Sunday times business section by Jill Kerby. The gist of it is that she gladly pays €50 to be seen quickly by her Doctor only when she needs to be seen. She does not think it is a good idea to add 2500 Doctors to the "loss making bureaucratic nightmare" that is the HSE. Also by paying her Doctor privately "he doesn't make the sick wait a week or more to see him as happens with GP patients in Britain and even parts of Canada where famaily Doctors are also employees of the State and where they conduct their profession as the state dictates". Private GPs have privately employed staff and are responsible for clinic running costs. NHS trusts pay staff and costs in the UK.

Her article begins, "Careful what you wish for"

sandin

minkynuts wrote: »

When you have a pain in the shoulder , you know the symptoms "pain in the shoulder". And yes I was in ther sugery 2 mins I times it as I had had this before . And Sandin if I think a service is too costly I can shop around for a better deal, the GPs have a monopoly, I can Turn Joe Duffy offbut when I am ill I cannot shop around for the doctor, I have to go to the Dr who has my records. before I retiurned to Ireland I worked in England and the Doctors there did not have a gravy train as they do here

GP's don't have a monopoly. Shop around and prices will vary from €35 - €60, there are even some places that offer an annual package of visit as often as you like.

And like anything - you do the shopping around before you need the service, and for something as simple as a pain in the shoulder a decent pharmacist would have been my first port of call - they are very well trained too, would have probably put you at ease and at no cost.

Doctors in UK are susbsidised by the NHS through way higher taxes - remember that in England you paid tax on even low earnings and the bands went up quicker and then you had council tax too!! - and childrens allowance was a ,lot lowerr as were most social payments. England imo is a crap country, hence many people like to get out asap.

otto_26

whippet wrote: »

use your new glasses and start reading some of the multitudes of threads on here regarding the pricing differential between Ireland & the UK .... its not all black and white.

- Rents
- Rates
- Costs of Labour
- VAT rates
- electric
- heat
- Wage costs
- Administration costs
- Smaller market
- importation and distribution costs

All of these will have the impact on the price in ireland and likewise the UK costs will impact the price in the UK.

Ireland and the UK are to totally different markets with totally different market forces and thus will not have the same price.

What a load of rubbish!!

They also have all this in the UK:

- Rents
- Rates
- Costs of Labour
- VAT rates
- electric
- heat
- Wage costs
- Administration costs
- Council tax rates
- Water rates

BUT HAVE

50% less tax to pay in Ireland

Tesco made a higher net profit in Ireland than UK per shop last year for 2 reasons 50% less tax to pay and higher prices..

Higher prices are because the Irish will pay just like specsavers....Simple.

keithclancy

otto_26 wrote: »

What a load of rubbish!!

They also have all this in the UK:

- Rents
- Rates
- Costs of Labour
- VAT rates
- electric
- heat
- Wage costs
- Administration costs
- Council tax rates
- Water rates

BUT HAVE

50% less tax to pay in Ireland

Tesco made a higher net profit in Ireland than UK per shop last year for 2 reasons 50% less tax to pay and higher prices..

Higher prices are because the Irish will pay just like specsavers....Simple.

So its not really a rip off Ireland thread is it, I've posted examples where they charge more in the Netherlands than in Ireland and more in Ireland than the Netherlands.

otto_26

keithclancy wrote: »

So its not really a rip off Ireland thread is it, I've posted examples where they charge more in the Netherlands than in Ireland and more in Ireland than the Netherlands.

cool what is more expensive in the Netherlands than in Ireland?

keithclancy

otto_26 wrote: »

cool what is more expensive in the Netherlands than in Ireland?

Cars (Initial Purchase) (BPM is higher than VRT)
Motor Tax (1258/year for a 2 Liter Diesel Car)
*From Energy.eu*
Electricity € 0.2208/kwh vs Ireland € 0.1920/kwh
Gas € 0.0727/kwh vs Ireland € 0.0506/kwh
Water - Just got my Standing charge bill, 64 euros for 4 months, also we pay per cubic meter on top of that.
City Tax, 640 euros / year.

Our weekly shop is around the same as in Ireland I would say, Aldi and Lidl are pretty much spot on with the Irish Prices.

To name a few ... the only thing I can think of thats cheaper than Ireland is Beer (8-10 euros for a crate of Bavaria) and Cigarettes (5.50 for a box of 19)

Edit: And Flowers are cheaper of course ... The Government heavily subsidise the market.

otto_26

keithclancy wrote: »

Cars (Initial Purchase) (BPM is higher than VRT)
Motor Tax (1258/year for a 2 Liter Diesel Car)
*From Energy.eu*
Electricity € 0.2208/kwh vs Ireland € 0.1920/kwh
Gas € 0.0727/kwh vs Ireland € 0.0506/kwh
Water - Just got my Standing charge bill, 64 euros for 4 months, also we pay per cubic meter on top of that.
City Tax, 640 euros / year.

Our weekly shop is around the same as in Ireland I would say, Aldi and Lidl are pretty much spot on with the Irish Prices.

To name a few ... the only thing I can think of thats cheaper than Ireland is Beer (8-10 euros for a crate of Bavaria) and Cigarettes (5.50 for a box of 19)

Edit: And Flowers are cheaper of course ... The Government heavily subsidise the market.

That's great but don't people on minimum wage in the Netherlands earn approx 3,000 more than Irish minimum wage workers?

keithclancy

otto_26 wrote: »

That's great but don't people on minimum wage in the Netherlands earn approx 3,000 more than Irish minimum wage workers?

Nope

Minimum wage for an Adult worker after deductions is around 1150 euros a month.

Private Health Insurance is legally required and costs around 120 euros / month.