Todays English Grand National

PeakOutput

ISDW wrote: »

And you've obviously never read my views on greyhound racing:D But still, there is nobody forcing the dog to go over the obstacles, if they decide they're not going to jump, they won't, with a horse, the jockey will urge them on.

if a horse dosn't want to jump it won't it really is that simple

ISDW

pokertalk wrote: »

ohhh i have read your opinions on greyhound racing and alot of them mirror my own but thats a whole other thread:)

I think yes, we probably have very similar feelings, sorry its late, and I was getting usernames mixed up there for a minute:P

ISDW

PeakOutput wrote: »

if a horse dosn't want to jump it won't it really is that simple

Really, a jockey will never use a whip or their legs to make a horse go on and attempt a jump?

So, as we've ascertained that we are talking about this particular race, do you think that the course and jumps are acceptable, and they don't need to be looked at, and maybe lowered?

amacachi

I love horse racing in principle and love the National especially but today was horrible. Was wondering about the chequered flags they were waving and then saw them avoid the fence and the canvas over the horse was awful. Then when I saw them avoid the second time I knew what was coming again.

It's an easily loaded question though, I love the Grand National but today really was awful. Especially when the deaths were done and confirmed so quickly.

amacachi

ISDW wrote: »

Really, a jockey will never use a whip or their legs to make a horse go on and attempt a jump?

So, as we've ascertained that we are talking about this particular race, do you think that the course and jumps are acceptable, and they don't need to be looked at, and maybe lowered?

They might go further than I would like to say I would but having seen most of them after a bad fall they seem really cut up about it. It's just part of the job for them.

PeakOutput

ISDW wrote: »

Really, a jockey will never use a whip or their legs to make a horse go on and attempt a jump?

So, as we've ascertained that we are talking about this particular race, do you think that the course and jumps are acceptable, and they don't need to be looked at, and maybe lowered?

i think that this is a tough and potentially dangerous race

i think that the owners and trainers love their horses and only enter them if they feel they are up to it, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right and accidents still happen

when accidents happen the horses are given the best possible care and they are quickly killed if it is serious so they do not suffer very long if at all

I don't have a problem with any of that

amacachi

PeakOutput wrote: »

i think that this is a tough and potentially dangerous race

i think that the owners and trainers love their horses and only enter them if they feel they are up to it, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right and accidents still happen

when accidents happen the horses are given the best possible care and they are quickly killed if it is serious so they do not suffer very long if at all

I don't have a problem with any of that

Though to answer the loaded points that were made through the thread I'm sure you'll agree that it is awful to see horses fall and die as they did today.

PeakOutput

amacachi wrote: »

Though to answer the loaded points that were made through the thread I'm sure you'll agree that it is awful to see horses fall and die as they did today.

i didnt see it today so i dont know if it was particularly awful or graphic or anything but ye of course i dont want to see horses die like that

bryaner

I love horses but unfortunately this is collateral damage in horse racing, in saying that 99% of horses in training have wonderful lives with all perks.

amacachi

PeakOutput wrote: »

i didnt see it today so i dont know if it was particularly awful or graphic or anything but ye of course i dont want to see horses die like that

It was pretty awful tbh. Heavy falls and skipped jumps and plastic covering the horses, didn't leave a lot to the imagination.

Cocolola

It is disgraceful that this is still going on these days. And I don't care how much people say what a great life the horses lead, tell that to the ones that die horrific deaths every year.

Also, saying that they are bred to race and that it's a business etc, doesn't make it ok.

Link to the Daily Mail pictures. They're hard to look at though.

Im Only 71Kg

how many people are homeless..living on the streets..starving or freezing to death. why dont you write a post about this in the humanities forum. why dont you go and do something about this? rather than post up some sensational nonsense about horses dying while doing the job they were bred to do.

Cocolola

Because I choose to post about it. Animals and animal welfare is where my main concern lies. There are people who care about other people, there are people who care about animals, there are even people who manage to care about both.

I see you have no posts in the humanities forum yourself by the way.

mikemac

Trainers know their horses and the horse should be ready for this grueling race.

They live like athletes and have the best of care for their lives.

Yes, horses die but it's only two horses and several hundred at a guess ran at Aintree for this meeting over the last few days.

Shazanne wrote: »

Are there any animals groups that protest at these types of events (the Grand National in particular?) as I would certainly join them.

Of course. They even manage to disrupt it sometimes

Shanao wrote: »

What exactly makes us so high and mighty amongst the rest of the animals might I ask? We're the only creatures that kill for sport and abuse both our own kind and others for fun,

Familiar with cats?

Our cat brings back birds and tortures/plays with them. Usually end up getting the bird from her and putting it out of its misery.

And tomcats try to kill new born kittens
Only ones that kill for sport?

amacachi

feelingstressed wrote: »

Of course. They even manage to disrupt it sometimes

I think they're known as "arseholes". Putting themselves in horses' paths, putting themselves, the jockeys and the horses all in danger.

Cocolola

feelingstressed wrote: »

And tomcats try to kill new born kittens
Only ones that kill for sport?

As far as I know, Tom cats kill kittens that aren't their own offspring to ensure that only their genes are passed on and so as to bring the mother back into heat quicker and therefore allow him to mate with her.

Nothing to do with killing for fun or sport.

And from this article http://www.suite101.com/content/why-cats-play-with-their-prey-a86865 (which I just Googled so not sure how accurate it is)

Many people believe that cats play with the small animals they hunt for fun, but this is not the case. Cats have an instinct to play with their prey because it’s the only way they can make a kill without risking injury.

pokertalk

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

how many people are homeless..living on the streets..starving or freezing to death. why dont you write a post about this in the humanities forum. why dont you go and do something about this? rather than post up some sensational nonsense about horses dying while doing the job they were bred to do.

what a stupit comment. this forum is for discussions that are animal related yes its terrible that we have so many homeless but that has nothing to do with this topic or forum

Hellrazer

This thread seems to have nose dived.

While there is no doubt that its an emotive issue can we all take a step back and calm down.

Discodog

Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Coursing etc are all the same in that the animals are bred to entertain & make money, especially from betting revenues. The animals are totally disposable once they cease to make money.

In the UK about 160 thoroughbred race horses die per year at the track & a further 260 per year are killed due to injuries or economic viability. There is a list here:

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

Due to recession huge numbers of race horses have been slaughtered, including in Ireland, despite the fact that many are owned by millionaires. As with Greyhounds the industry paints a picture of animals being cared for in luxury which is true provided that the animal is making money or has the potential to do so.

Yes people do peacefully object & protest in the UK. Their actions have been one of the key factors in the terminal decline of Greyhound racing & the death of Coursing.

Personally I disagree with the sanitisation & the well rehearsed procedures that hide the distasteful from the public. If people are going to attend Horse or Greyhound racing they should not be shielded from knowing the real cost of their entertainment. I wonder how many people would "enjoy" the "great night out" portrayed by Greyhound stadiums if they knew that at least 10,000 Greyhounds are killed every year ?.

As Pet owners we accept the responsibility to care for our animals from cradle to grave. Racing people have a totally different perspective.

Is racing cruel ?. The accepted definition of cruelty is the causing of unnecessary suffering. The problem comes in defining unnecessary. To an animal lover these deaths & injuries are totally unnecessary whereas to the owner they are just collateral damage.

Cookie_Monster

Discodog wrote: »

Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Coursing etc are all the same in that the animals are bred to entertain & make money, especially from betting revenues. The animals are totally disposable once they cease to make money..

+1 on all that post.

These animals are nothing more than stock to these people, it's a disgraceful sport that does nothing except exploit animals for people's sick entertainment. Maybe you can argue it's not cruelty but it is without question exploitation.

PeakOutput

Discodog wrote: »

Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Coursing etc are all the same in that the animals are bred to entertain & make money, especially from betting revenues. The animals are totally disposable once they cease to make money.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

+1 on all that post.

These animals are nothing more than stock to these people, it's a disgraceful sport that does nothing except exploit animals for people's sick entertainment. Maybe you can argue it's not cruelty but it is without question exploitation.

i assume you are both vegans and are happy with the fact that these animals will cease to exist at all if the industries you are talking about cease to exist

hares will survive greyhounds certainly wont, there will only be a small amount of horses in the wild but sure thats better then having them live long happy lives in the service of humans i guess

CiaranC

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

+1 on all that post.

These animals are nothing more than stock to these people, it's a disgraceful sport that does nothing except exploit animals for people's sick entertainment. Maybe you can argue it's not cruelty but it is without question exploitation.

What a load of ignorant rubbish. Race horses are far better cared for than most humans in the third world.

God I hate this forum and its self righteous twat population

Hellrazer

CiaranC wrote: »

What a load of ignorant rubbish. Race horses are far better cared for than most humans in the third world.

God I hate this forum and its self righteous twat population

Did you not see my mod warning?Infracted for that comment

Cookie_Monster

PeakOutput wrote: »

i assume you are both vegans and are happy with the fact that these animals will cease to exist at all if the industries you are talking about cease to exist

no, not a vegan and have no issue with well cared for working animals or food animals but sport animals is different and wrong IMO.
Horses will not cease to exist if racing didn't exist, there are many many other uses for horses which don't involve such suffering and waste. Sure the best are very very well kept but how many horse (or greyhounds) are thrown away or destroyed for every one champion?

PeakOutput

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, not a vegan and have no issue with well cared for working animals or food animals but sport animals is different and wrong IMO.
Horses will not cease to exist if racing didn't exist, there are many many other uses for horses which don't involve such suffering and waste. Sure the best are very very well kept but how many horse (or greyhounds) are thrown away or destroyed for every one champion?

horses inherent value, rightly or wrongly, is much much higher then a greyhound so I would say not very many at all

sport animals are different in your head but i doubt the animals notice much difference. if they are well cared for and well looked after that is all that matters. after that its a debate about weather or not a jockey riding a horse and competing is inherently cruel, obviously I dont think that is the case.

if that isn't the case then its a debate about weather or not aintree is different (more cruel) because it is a tougher track, personally I dont think it is any different. the horses are still loved and still excellently cared for and nobody wants them to come to any harm.

also if you decide to ban the act of riding a horse in competition then there is a high chance that over the course of a few generations the horse as we know it will cease to exist.

tallus

IrishHomer wrote: »

Am i the only one to be upset by today's grand national?



On th esecond lap Two fences of the thirty were bypassed due to dead horses.

Christ, I saw them bypass the jumps, and thought to myself, at least they are cutting out some of the jumps this year. Absolutely terrible.

angelfire9

Discodog wrote: »

Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Coursing etc are all the same in that the animals are bred to entertain & make money, especially from betting revenues. The animals are totally disposable once they cease to make money.

Sorry Discodog but i have to disagree with you
Race horses are virtually part of the family for most of their trainers and thus when retired the majority live life to a ripe old age being spoilt rotten

From Wikipedia:

Red Rum died on 18 October 1995, aged 30. His death made the front pages of national newspapers.[1]
He was buried at the winning post of the Aintree Racecourse which is still a destination for his fans today. The epitaph reads "Respect this place / this hallowed ground / a legend here / his rest has found / his feet would fly / our spirits soar / he earned our love for evermore".
Eleven years after his death, a survey found he remained the best-known racehorse in the UK.[5]

Note Red Rum retired from racing in 1978 and lived til 1995 which is almost 20 years in retirement

In the UK that have an actual charity set up to assist owners with dealing with retired racehorses
http://www.ror.org.uk/

Bindaree
The 1994 gelding, Bindaree, won the 2002 Grand National, ridden by Jim Colloty and trained by Nigel Twiston-Davis. He is now enjoying a second career in dressage.

Royal Athlete
Former Grand National winner, Royal Athlete, thrived in his later life, which included Junior Side Saddle classes with Cordelia Chugg

Lizawake
Lizawake won a total of ten races including the 1963 Beechers Chase at Aintree. He ran in the Grand National in 1963, 1964 and 1965. Later in that year Tom Brake suggested to his owner Mrs Mary Marshall, that he would make a showjumper and thus at the age of 12 years he began his second career.

He went on to become one of the most consistent horses in the country for the next eight seasons, winning all over from the Royal Cornwall Show to the Royal Highland and the Supreme Championship at the Three Counties Show. At the age of 17, in 1970, he put up a great performance to jump a height of 7ft 3.5 inches in the John Player High Jump at Nottingham.

ppink

Angelfire I think it is a bit wild to use Red Rum of all horses as an example of how racehorses are well cared for.

Even Ginger McCain stated how Red Rum had Got him to places he would never have got without that horse, watch the video.

Red rum was an exceptional animal bred to do 5furlongs on the flat and then getting 4.5 miles over fences. No one was going to put him to sleep without a massive outcry. Every national newspaper in the UK was covered with "goodbye RedRum" on the morning of the 1978 national. So it is very hard to compare ANY horse to him or his subsequent treatment tbh. Aside for him becoming a "guest celebrity" all over the UK and even Irl, which I am sure was paid for.

There of course owners who retire their horses.....Black Jack Ketchum was retired to Barbados after injury! but certainly not all that is for sure and I am not sure I would go down the path of trying to name the "lucky" ones.

Check out what happened to poor Ferdinand....steak in Japan!! after the Kentucky Derby of all races.

angelfire9

ppink wrote: »

Angelfire I think it is a bit wild to use Red Rum of all horses as an example of how racehorses are well cared for.

Even Ginger McCain stated how Red Rum had Got him to places he would never have got without that horse, watch the video.

Red rum was an exceptional animal bred to do 5furlongs on the flat and then getting 4.5 miles over fences. No one was going to put him to sleep without a massive outcry. Every national newspaper in the UK was covered with "goodbye RedRum" on the morning of the 1978 national. So it is very hard to compare ANY horse to him or his subsequent treatment tbh. Aside for him becoming a "guest celebrity" all over the UK and even Irl, which I am sure was paid for.

There of course owners who retire their horses.....Black Jack Ketchum was retired to Barbados after injury! but certainly not all that is for sure and I am not sure I would go down the path of trying to name the "lucky" ones.

Check out what happened to poor Ferdinand....steak in Japan!! after the Kentucky Derby of all races.

Point taken
But I've listed a few former grand national winners who have gone on to other things

Im Only 71Kg

pokertalk wrote: »

what a stupit comment. this forum is for discussions that are animal related yes its terrible that we have so many homeless but that has nothing to do with this topic or forum

the reason i made that comment was to highlight how stupid this thread is. anyone saying horse racing is cruel or that the grand national is intentional animal cruelty is deluded.