Todays English Grand National

Discodog

angelfire9 wrote: »

Sorry Discodog but i have to disagree with you
Race horses are virtually part of the family for most of their trainers and thus when retired the majority live life to a ripe old age being spoilt rotten

Slow racehorses fed to the Lions:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/slow-racehorses-fed-to-the-lions-in-dublin-zoo/

"Reports from Beijing claim Kevin Connolly has already killed 600 horses and the International League for the Protection of Horses (ILPH) has described it as "sickening". The cull of the healthy horses has been sparked since the Communist government in China shut down the Beijing racecourse in October.Connolly, racing director at the course, has admitted culling more than 100 horses already and said hundreds more may be killed over the winter"
http://allianceforanimalrights.webs.com/horseracing.htm


"While in the past decade the leisure horse industry flourished, it was racing which really expanded, as hundreds of syndicates of both elite and ordinary folk seized their moment to live the dream. From 2001 to 2006 the number of racehorses in training in Ireland increased by 22 per cent. When the economy collapsed, trainers’ fees weren’t paid and fields full of horses suddenly had no owners. Culling horses may now be the only way to reduce the number of cases of starvation and abuse."
IHWT http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0928/1224279819356.html


"And abattoirs, where horses are slaughtered for their meat for human consumption, have become a growth industry.
In 2008, there was just one in the Republic of Ireland, but today there are five.
Last year, 9,790 horses were killed in them. Of these, the BBC has learnt that 4,618 were thoroughbreds."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12682680

angelfire9

Discodog wrote: »

Slow racehorses fed to the Lions:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/slow-racehorses-fed-to-the-lions-in-dublin-zoo/

"Reports from Beijing claim Kevin Connolly has already killed 600 horses and the International League for the Protection of Horses (ILPH) has described it as "sickening". The cull of the healthy horses has been sparked since the Communist government in China shut down the Beijing racecourse in October.Connolly, racing director at the course, has admitted culling more than 100 horses already and said hundreds more may be killed over the winter"
http://allianceforanimalrights.webs.com/horseracing.htm


"While in the past decade the leisure horse industry flourished, it was racing which really expanded, as hundreds of syndicates of both elite and ordinary folk seized their moment to live the dream. From 2001 to 2006 the number of racehorses in training in Ireland increased by 22 per cent. When the economy collapsed, trainers’ fees weren’t paid and fields full of horses suddenly had no owners. Culling horses may now be the only way to reduce the number of cases of starvation and abuse."
IHWT http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0928/1224279819356.html


"And abattoirs, where horses are slaughtered for their meat for human consumption, have become a growth industry.
In 2008, there was just one in the Republic of Ireland, but today there are five.
Last year, 9,790 horses were killed in them. Of these, the BBC has learnt that 4,618 were thoroughbreds."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12682680

Your first link is in relation to irish horses (which does surprise me)
The second is in relation to China (no surprise there)
Third & fourth link Ireland again

We are talking about Grand National horses here
the majority of which are from the UK
And whatever else you may say or think about the brits they are generally good to their animals

Discodog

This report was written in 2003 & shows how little things have changed. It is referring to the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/mar/28/animalwelfare.horseracing

"The report, an analysis of scientific research and industry data, charges that the thoroughbred horses on which the industry relies are "buckling under increasing and relentless pressure".
Animal Aid found that:
· Leg fractures among horses racing on the flat had increased markedly in the past 20 years, with the attrition rate comparative to that among horses that run over fences.
· Ninety-three per cent of horses in training had gastric ulcers, which worsened in competition. A further 82% of horses had pulmonary haemorrhages, which cause blood to leak from the nostrils. Both are racing-related illnesses.
· Of 15,000 foals bred for racing each year, only one-third are sufficiently healthy to enter racing, with thousands of others "discarded". The group says around 80% of foals made the grade in the 1920s.
· Top breeding stallions are so overworked that two of the most coveted stallions of 2001 died from exhaustion after covering more than 300 mares in a year.
· The racing industry has commissioned experiments on horses including making them walk for months on treadmills, subjecting others to deliberate wounding or infection, and surrogate birth experiments where embryos were switched between ponies and thoroughbreds.
The report also draws attention to the burden placed on mares, describing the breeding process as "production-line pregnancy". Animal Aid accuses the racing industry of forcing mares to produce foals at twice the normal rate and of conducting experiments to decrease the gestation period in a bid to increase profits.
Animal Aid also highlights the Grand National's rate of attrition. Last year four horses were killed during the meeting. Since 1997 27 horses have died at the meeting.

Discodog

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

the reason i made that comment was to highlight how stupid this thread is. anyone saying horse racing is cruel or that the grand national is intentional animal cruelty is deluded.

The winning horse had to be given oxygen & the jockey was so concerned that he dismounted immediately & did not ride the horse into the ring.

However the jockey didn't seem to mind being banned for 5 days for excessive use of the Whip.

Shazanne

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

the reason i made that comment was to highlight how stupid this thread is. anyone saying horse racing is cruel or that the grand national is intentional animal cruelty is deluded.

The thread relates to the Aintree Grand National, not horse racing in general. So you feel that entering horses in a race like this, where statistics continually prove that horses can and do die a painful death, is not "intentional animal cruelty".
I would be afraid to ask you what you consider to be "intentional animal cruelty" and I would ask that you do not share your opinions on this matter. But I would ask that you reflect on the pictures posted above from the Daily Mail and then ask yourself if this is cruelty or not.

PeakOutput

Shazanne wrote: »

The thread relates to the Aintree Grand National, not horse racing in general. So you feel that entering horses in a race like this, where statistics continually prove that horses can and do die a painful death, is not "intentional animal cruelty".

the op was about the grand national but people have now decided to talk about horse racing in general.

it isn't intentional and it isn't cruel imo. just because a death occurs, however tragic, does not mean there was any cruelty involved

But I would ask that you reflect on the pictures posted above from the Daily Mail and then ask yourself if this is cruelty or not.

I have and I was expecting them to be far worse tbh, that is not to take away from the tragedy but those pictures dont show much. Still don't see any cruelty I say race horses doing what they are bred, reared and trained to do best being ridden by competitive, talented animal lovers and I see a series of accidents happening with tragic consequences. Thats all.

Shanao

feelingstressed wrote: »

Familiar with cats?

Our cat brings back birds and tortures/plays with them. Usually end up getting the bird from her and putting it out of its misery.

And tomcats try to kill new born kittens
Only ones that kill for sport?

I should hope so, I work with rescue cats and have six myself. Tom cats kill newborn kittens to ensure that only their genes are passed on, as instinct tells them. If you didn't take the bird from the cat, I have no doubts that she would either let it go, or kill and eat it eventually. But we are the only species that kill for sport and toss the carcass away afterwards, so yeah, I cant exactly see what your point was in bringing cats into it?


As for the grand national, while I know it will continue in the future, I really hope they change the course at least to try and ensure there's less of a chance of a horse being killed.

Discodog

The thread may be about the Grand National but a quick look at the list here shows that horses are killed at other tracks throughout the year. The GN gets massive coverage so the deaths are known about. Most of the poor horses on this list died without widespread public knowledge - 61 so far this year.

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

ISDW

Not knowing much about horse racing, as I have no interest in it, is the distance of the Grand National that much further than most other races, or do other races of this distance occur throughout the season?

Are horses that run in the GN trained specifically for this distance, or do they run shorter races generally?

PeakOutput

Shanao wrote: »

But we are the only species that kill for sport and toss the carcass away afterwards

that is not true, killer whales kill for sport and that is just off the top of my head.

also no horses were killed for sport during the grand national accidents occured and they died, nobody was entertained by their deaths.

ppink

ISDW wrote: »

Not knowing much about horse racing, as I have no interest in it, is the distance of the Grand National that much further than most other races, or do other races of this distance occur throughout the season?

Are horses that run in the GN trained specifically for this distance, or do they run shorter races generally?

From what i understand of it the Grand Nationals are the "marathon" of racing. They do run distance alright but as far as I know there are no other races 4.5 miles over 30 fences. it is not something you would be doing every day with them btu they are trained to run distance
.
From what I said above about Red Rum being bred only for 5 furlongs, he was the exception to every rule.

As regards cooling them down, it is often a case that horses need to be cooled, even after eventing and flat racing.

When I look at that list of DD's you can select certain jockey's and see how many horses have died under them, it was surprising. Some had 7 or 8, others had just one. Maybe related to number of rides they get?

What I cannot understand is with the odds how one horse could manage to get around five years in a row, winning it 3 times and coming second twice. If it was so dangerous how could that have happened........is it training, riding or horse?

killing for sport......if my dogs managed to get across the road to the massive field of lambs I am sure there would not be one survivor!

dan_d

From a very young age I have simply not been able to watch the Grand National because I found it very distressing. So many horses fall - whether they die or not, I found it sickening to look at, as some of the falls are horrendous. It comes across as being a complete scrum, and sport or no sport, I just think it's horrible.

I'm not going to compare it to anything, or say it's right or wrong, but....I for one hate it.

Shazanne

PeakOutput wrote: »

that is not true, killer whales kill for sport and that is just off the top of my head.

also no horses were killed for sport during the grand national accidents occured and they died, nobody was entertained by their deaths.

That's a bit of a cop out, don't you think? "No horses were killed" but "accidents occured and they died":mad:
They are not "accidents" in the true sense of the word - they are preventable tradgedies! Every man, woman and child knows that the liklihood of a horse/horses dying as a result of racing in the Grand National is very high - yet it still goes ahead. To say that "nobody was entertained by their deaths" may (I hope) be true, but they were entertained by the event that led to their deaths so, really, is there very much difference?

Discodog

On reflection I find it amazing that the jockey can win, by over using his whip & beating the horse, & the result stands.

It's like he gets the reward of the race win even though he broke the rules.

This only encourages jockeys to beat horses if they think they can win.

Knine

ppink wrote: »

What I cannot understand is with the odds how one horse could manage to get around five years in a row, winning it 3 times and coming second twice. If it was so dangerous how could that have happened........is it training, riding or horse?

The horse Red Rum was a legend and the fences were much tougher in his day then they are now. I did place bets on horses yesterday and I can tell you I am feeling guilty now after watching those poor horses die. However having worked with horses I can say that they do love to race.

byhookorbycrook

Horses die every day. Eventing ,point-to-pointing,hunting,polocrosse and show-jumping all carry risks. No owner or trainer enters a horse to an event to have it killed.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

Slow racehorses fed to the Lions:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/feb/15/slow-racehorses-fed-to-the-lions-in-dublin-zoo/

http://allianceforanimalrights.webs.com/horseracing.htm

IHWT http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0928/1224279819356.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12682680

Honestly, what is the matter with eating horse meat and what is the matter with properly regulated abbatoirs? Tis just playing on emotions.

Horses can injure and kill themselves in stables and in the field. Only the horses most suitable/capable are entered into the Grand National. It would not be the NG if it was not a challenge for horse and rider.

Lions got to eat too;)

Wolfe Tone

PeakOutput wrote: »

if a horse dosn't want to jump it won't it really is that simple

Too true, Ive been put through many fences myself when the horse simply refuses to jump!

eilo1

Discodog wrote: »

This report was written in 2003 & shows how little things have changed. It is referring to the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/mar/28/animalwelfare.horseracing

"The report, an analysis of scientific research and industry data, charges that the thoroughbred horses on which the industry relies are "buckling under increasing and relentless pressure".
Animal Aid found that:
· Leg fractures among horses racing on the flat had increased markedly in the past 20 years, with the attrition rate comparative to that among horses that run over fences.
· Ninety-three per cent of horses in training had gastric ulcers, which worsened in competition. A further 82% of horses had pulmonary haemorrhages, which cause blood to leak from the nostrils. Both are racing-related illnesses.
· Of 15,000 foals bred for racing each year, only one-third are sufficiently healthy to enter racing, with thousands of others "discarded". The group says around 80% of foals made the grade in the 1920s.
· Top breeding stallions are so overworked that two of the most coveted stallions of 2001 died from exhaustion after covering more than 300 mares in a year.
· The racing industry has commissioned experiments on horses including making them walk for months on treadmills, subjecting others to deliberate wounding or infection, and surrogate birth experiments where embryos were switched between ponies and thoroughbreds.
The report also draws attention to the burden placed on mares, describing the breeding process as "production-line pregnancy". Animal Aid accuses the racing industry of forcing mares to produce foals at twice the normal rate and of conducting experiments to decrease the gestation period in a bid to increase profits.
Animal Aid also highlights the Grand National's rate of attrition. Last year four horses were killed during the meeting. Since 1997 27 horses have died at the meeting.

This is as far as I could read in this thread. This is absolute and total B*****t. I have worked in the industry, have a HND in equine studies and wrote my dissertation on the thoroughbred breeding industry.

This type of sensational PR junk that "animal rights" groups throw out is represents a very sick group of individuals. I cant even begin to understand how they come up with this nonsense, but you sir are wrong.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

This only encourages jockeys to beat horses if they think they can win.

Not likely with all the cameras around and in Ireland the Irish Turf Club keeping an eye.

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/[/QUOTE]

A website by Animal Aid who wants the whole world to be vegan. Not the most objective of sources

Discodog wrote: »

The winning horse had to be given oxygen & the jockey was so concerned that he dismounted immediately & did not ride the horse into the ring.

However the jockey didn't seem to mind being banned for 5 days for excessive use of the Whip.

Saturdays weather was unusually warm, with any athlete they got to keep moving and bring body temp/respiration down gradually after physical exertion. Some athletes sweat more than others. The horse came first so no longer it was going to be tired!. It is becoming more common for jockeys to dismount asap. This is already done in eventing (after xcountry phase) and endurance riding. If a jockey feels a horse can't cope during a race it is pulled up.

As for amending the outcome due to the 5 day ban I don't know what is going to happen.

planetX

dan_d wrote: »

From a very young age I have simply not been able to watch the Grand National because I found it very distressing. So many horses fall - whether they die or not, I found it sickening to look at, as some of the falls are horrendous. It comes across as being a complete scrum, and sport or no sport, I just think it's horrible.

I'm not going to compare it to anything, or say it's right or wrong, but....I for one hate it.

I'm the same, I've always hated the Grand National - it's too much for the horses. I don't see why people can't get their gambling fix on a shorter easier race (or just go and play electronic horse racing game in an arcade!!!!)

Discodog

eilo1 wrote: »

This is as far as I could read in this thread. This is absolute and total B*****t. I have worked in the industry, have a HND in equine studies and wrote my dissertation on the thoroughbred breeding industry.

This type of sensational PR junk that "animal rights" groups throw out is represents a very sick group of individuals. I cant even begin to understand how they come up with this nonsense, but you sir are wrong.

As an academic you know that it is bad form to junk someone's research unless you provide some evidence of your own.

As for research being biased are we to assume that, as you have worked for & been paid by the industry, that you are independent ?.

What do you consider "sick" about caring for horse welfare ?. How do you account for all the other research & comments. Are they all from sick groups ?.

eilo1

Discodog wrote: »

As an academic you know that it is bad form to junk someone's research unless you provide some evidence of your own.

As for research being biased are we to assume that, as you have worked for & been paid by the industry, that you are independent ?.

What do you consider "sick" about caring for horse welfare ?. How do you account for all the other research & comments. Are they all from sick groups ?.

I promised myself I wouldnt get dragged in however here we go.

Firstly Im not trawling through papers to argue with statistics you got from a publication on par with "The Sun" newspaper.

What I will do is point out some flaws in the quote.

Ninety-three per cent of horses in training had gastric ulcers, which worsened in competition. A further 82% of horses had pulmonary haemorrhages, which cause blood to leak from the nostrils. Both are racing-related illnesses

Gastric ulcers are common in horses, there has been no proven link between racing and gastric ulcers, the vast majority of ulcers in horses are asymptomatic.
A pulmonary Haemorrhage is commonly referred to as "bleeding" or "a bleeder" in the equine industry. It is common enough however from my experience 82% is wildly exaggerated. Also I have no idea how you anyone could state a figure of 82% as there is no veterinary database in place to record the occurrence of bleeding. It is also good to point out that a burst blood vessel from exercise is not something that is considered harmful or painful or anything to be extremely concerned about.

Of 15,000 foals bred for racing each year, only one-third are sufficiently healthy to enter racing, with thousands of others "discarded". The group says around 80% of foals made the grade in the 1920s.

This whole statement just reeks, what do you mean " are sufficiently healthy"? Its far more likely that some of the foals are never trained because they go straight to stud, they are trained in other discipline's such as jumping or hunting, they have a post natal problem and do not survive or they are trained or a time and either suffer injury or are just not good enough, in this case they either move on to another job/retirement, become injuried or are sent for meat.
The "group" have no way of knowing how many horses where bread and then raced in the 1920's. They can trace the weatherbys breeding book, but not all animals would have been registered before it was clear if they would race.

Top breeding stallions are so overworked that two of the most coveted stallions of 2001 died from exhaustion after covering more than 300 mares in a year.
Breeding stallions are not over worked and have in fact one of the best lives of any animal on the planet. As for working them to exhaustion, Coolmore limited Saddelars Well (the best NH stallion ever) to 100 mares a season in 2005.

The racing industry has commissioned experiments on horses including making them walk for months on treadmills, subjecting others to deliberate wounding or infection, and surrogate birth experiments where embryos were switched between ponies and thoroughbreds.



This is the one statement that really got me annoyed, this is like saying the medical community are responsible for every medical experiment ever, why are you not blaming the veterinary community?

The report also draws attention to the burden placed on mares, describing the breeding process as "production-line pregnancy". Animal Aid accuses the racing industry of forcing mares to produce foals at twice the normal rate and of conducting experiments to decrease the gestation period in a bid to increase profits.

What is this even about?!??! "twice the normal rate!" A mares gestational period is 11 months, are they seriously trying to say that people are now breeding horses in 5.5 months?????? Its just nonsense!

Rant over.

ISDW

Trying to stay on topic, and have a reasoned discussion - if the GN is longer than the races that horses would be used and conditioned to, with higher fences, would it not follow that there would be more accidents and fatalities, as the horses would be tiring? You couldn't ask a human sprinter to run middle distance without changing their training regime completely, is it not the same with horses? If so, is this not the intrinsic problem with this race? And if it is, can the distance or the height of the jumps not be changed to take this into account?

Do horses that are entered into the GN start a different training regime a few months before the race? Or could they be running a shorter race with lower fences only the week beforehand?

Discodog

Eilo1 can you tell us how many thoroughbreds have been euthanased by Coolmore & other Irish studs as a result of the recession ?.
Can you provide links to support your claims ?.

The RSPCA, whom you would probably describe as "a sick group of individuals", have said the following:

"The death of a horse at any race meeting is never justifiable and it is crucial that, wherever possible, steps are taken to reduce the likelihood of such tragedies occurring," said a spokeswoman. "The Grand National is the most testing of races and due to the number of runners, the distance of the race and the number and variety of obstacles there is a higher risk to horses."

It appears that some redesigns to make the course safer actually made it much faster & increased impact damage. How can any race where less that 50% of the horses finish be acceptable ?.

eilo1

ISDW wrote: »

Trying to stay on topic, and have a reasoned discussion - if the GN is longer than the races that horses would be used and conditioned to, with higher fences, would it not follow that there would be more accidents and fatalities, as the horses would be tiring? You couldn't ask a human sprinter to run middle distance without changing their training regime completely, is it not the same with horses? If so, is this not the intrinsic problem with this race? And if it is, can the distance or the height of the jumps not be changed to take this into account?

Do horses that are entered into the GN start a different training regime a few months before the race? Or could they be running a shorter race with lower fences only the week beforehand?

Sorry for going off topic,

To answer your question, yes these horses are trained specifically for this race, sometimes for a year plus in advance sometimes at a couple of months notice.

Obviously all horses are not suited to the same distance similar to human athletes, some are sprinters, some middle distance, some long.

As with all athletes speed and acceleration come in early age, skill and stamina progress with age.

The horses that run in the national will normally be horses that ran over middle to long distances, that have peaked at those but are not yet at retirement age.

That is to say they are horses with lots of stamina who perform well in 3 mile chases but are just not good enough to win the gold cup etc. They just need a little more length. They are all proven to be decent jumper's and are very experienced at jumping chase fences.

planetX

I'd like to place bets on a 'mega' marathon, where the human runners have to jump huge fences whilst running to exhaustion, and there's a good chance of lots of them dying. What's wrong with a few pulmonary embolisms brought on by severe stress, it's all part of the fun and sport...

There certainly used to be groups protesting at the GN, I'm sure there's still a presence.

Wolfe Tone

Jockeys risk their lives too and often get hurt.

sensibleken

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Jockeys risk their lives too and often get hurt.

So? They have a choice in that matter

Wolfe Tone

Ok lets ban horseracing and put all the horses down so.