Todays English Grand National

eilo1

ISDW wrote: »

Aw that was horrendous, but it was a real freak accident, I don't think it has anything to do with this topic.

Is there a temperature cut off for horse racing? It was unseasonably warm on Saturday, which again, could have had an impact on what happened, if it reaches a certain temperature can the race be called off? Assuming of course that any steward would have the guts to make such a decision with everything that goes alongside the GN - media wise.

To my knowledge there is no cut off point.

But you the races are timed according to season so in the winter racing normally starts about 12.30 and finishes about 3.30 because of the light.
In the spring it kicks off a little later about 2 and goes on till about 5.30.

When the weather warms up most of the racing is in the evening apart from on the weekend. But summer racing is the flat season so the horses are only running over about a mile or shorter.

All racecourses have a duty of care to the horses and people there so yes they could potentially call off the racing if there was a serious concerned.

Ironically the above statement about the horses being electrocuted at Newbury is an example of that. The whole meeting was abandoned when the horses went down, despite there being no visible danger to people.
The whole day was cancelled out of concern for the horses safety.

ppink

Newbury is off the topic i suppose but really the organisers there should have stopped that race going ahead.

The abandoned the card only AFTER that race in which there were 2 dead horses in the paddock beforehand and other horses and handlers not feeling great. This is what does racing no good at all.

Same as the GN! the course organisers and all the experienced people should know that the heat would be an issue with the ground being fast and too hot for a marathon...........or indeed did they know? I was amazed at the constant supply of full buckets of water at the finish so obviously they knew there would be an issue as regards the heat.

Then surely to God they would know about the speed also?

they have a duty to all to put more effort into ensuring a "safer" outcome. even racing lovers do not want to watch horses being killed.

eilo1

ppink wrote: »

Newbury is off the topic i suppose but really the organisers there should have stopped that race going ahead.

The abandoned the card only AFTER that race in which there were 2 dead horses in the paddock beforehand and other horses and handlers not feeling great. This is what does racing no good at all.

Same as the GN! the course organisers and all the experienced people should know that the heat would be an issue with the ground being fast and too hot for a marathon...........or indeed did they know? I was amazed at the constant supply of full buckets of water at the finish so obviously they knew there would be an issue as regards the heat.

Then surely to God they would know about the speed also?

they have a duty to all to put more effort into ensuring a "safer" outcome. even racing lovers do not want to watch horses being killed.

Here is a link to Nickey Henderson talking about that day in Newbury, He points out that it was good to let the race off to get all the people and horses away from the paddock.

As far as the buckets of water at the finish of the race, this is normal enough for endurance racing and just shows good planning.

ppink

Nicky Henderson pulled his horse Kid Cassidy at the start as he knew he was not right....I thought?

Yes I accept the water is a norm in some areas like endurance and eventing. unusual for a GN though?

I just wonder if "they" know as much as they think they do about horses running that distance, with that speed over 30 fences in heat? (the organisers I mean)

eilo1

Nicky did pull his horse, but his horse wobbled and fell to its knees, the vet was called and checked over the horse at the start. He was then pulled. I think the vet took some of the other horses heart rates before allowing them to run.

As for the water thing, just look at cheltenham, The horses get water to drink and thrown on them in the winners enclosure while still on camera.

The fact that there was water available suggests nothing but good planning and infrastructure. Aintree had a major facelift a few years ago and clearly they where practical with the water access. Aintree is not just a race course it is also an equestrian centre that caters for major events such as 3 star eventing.

I really dont think the race could have been called off because of a warm day, it was about 18c, not exactly roasting.

They could have and in my opinion should have watered the ground more. I would like to see them try and make the ground soft for every running.

PeakOutput

ppink wrote: »

I just wonder if "they" know as much as they think they do about horses running that distance, with that speed over 30 fences in heat? (the organisers I mean)

just before I post this I want to point out I am not making any claims of facts in what I am about to say I am simply curious as to the explanation and if someone has an explanation for me great if not thats fine too

a human being is a fairly awful athlete in general when compared with other species, yet a marathon is actually a reasonable goal for anyone with the motivation to train for it

a horse, to me, seems like it is far better designed to run (and jump) then a human is so does it not follow that with the correct training it is perfectly plausible that a horse can run the distance of a the grand national with no problems and potentially far greater distances (humans can run over 100 and sometimes 200 miles at a time if they are trained)

now i think horses cant cool themselves down as well as humans can (humans are some of the best species for keeping their body temp regulated apparently) but is there anything else that physically makes these distances hard for them?

Shazanne

I am not qualified in any way to answer the question you pose but one thing that certainly makes the Grand National particularly dangerous is, I believe, the number of horses allowed to take part. This greatly increases the danger to both horses and jockeys.

eilo1

PeakOutput wrote: »

just before I post this I want to point out I am not making any claims of facts in what I am about to say I am simply curious as to the explanation and if someone has an explanation for me great if not thats fine too

a human being is a fairly awful athlete in general when compared with other species, yet a marathon is actually a reasonable goal for anyone with the motivation to train for it

a horse, to me, seems like it is far better designed to run (and jump) then a human is so does it not follow that with the correct training it is perfectly plausible that a horse can run the distance of a the grand national with no problems and potentially far greater distances (humans can run over 100 and sometimes 200 miles at a time if they are trained)

now i think horses cant cool themselves down as well as humans can (humans are some of the best species for keeping their body temp regulated apparently) but is there anything else that physically makes these distances hard for them?

Here we go :pac:

4 and a half miles really isnt that far for a horse, they cover more than that on a day out hunting. Some horses cover 100miles a day (google endurance racing).
The only issue with the national is the speed and the fences. (Although to be fair the biggest fence is 5"3)
The stamina needed to not only cover that distance at the speed they travel and then to get over 30 large fences accurately is what causes the problems, well that and the large number of horses getting in the way.

As for humans, I remember reading somewhere that humans are actually one of the fastest walking species on the planet.
hope that helps

PeakOutput

eilo1 wrote: »

Here we go :pac:

4 and a half miles really isnt that far for a horse, they cover more than that on a day out hunting. Some horses cover 100miles a day (google endurance racing).
The only issue with the national is the speed and the fences. (Although to be fair the biggest fence is 5"3)
The stamina needed to not only cover that distance at the speed they travel and then to get over 30 large fences accurately is what causes the problems, well that and the large number of horses getting in the way.

As for humans, I remember reading somewhere that humans are actually one of the fastest walking species on the planet.
hope that helps

ye so I am not wrong in thinking that horses can be great endurance athletes, so it seems that potentially the biggest problem is that amount of horses trying to get over those fences all at the same time at that speed

also as for the human thing we are some of the best endurance athletes as well with numerous tribes simply using exhaustion as a hunting technique google / youtube 'were we born to run' but thats miles off topic

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

Eilo1 can you tell us how many thoroughbreds have been euthanased by Coolmore & other Irish studs as a result of the recession ?.
Can you provide links to support your claims ?.

Any chance of an answer ?

PeakOutput

Discodog wrote: »

Any chance of an answer ?

Why does it matter?

eilo1

Discodog wrote: »

Any chance of an answer ?

Another poster pointed out we where going off topic so nope.

If you want to start another thread you are free to do so.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

Any chance of an answer ?

Horses that are owned by Coolmore or liveried there (not sure if they livery others) or horses visiting? I know people working there and the broodmares get treated like queens, they are kept on until about 20 and then put down. A mare that can no longer produce a foal may be kept for a season or two to 'babysit' younger animals.

ppink

Discodog wrote: »

Any chance of an answer ?

doctor evil wrote: »

Horses that are owned by Coolmore or liveried there (not sure if they livery others) or horses visiting? I know people working there and the broodmares get treated like queens, they are kept on until about 20 and then put down. A mare that can no longer produce a foal may be kept for a season or two to 'babysit' younger animals.

What does coolmore have to do with this years GN? I did not think they had any horses in the GN since the 50's (Ballydoyle that is)??

Loopsie

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

Shazanne wrote: »

Two horses are led out to run a high-stakes race, fall and break their back/neck, scream in agony until the vet can get to them and are then shot. Where is the "absolute nonsense" in that?
I feel very strongly about anything that cause suffering of any kind to an animal. I cannot accept that such suffering has/is being caused for human entertainment.[/QUOTE

...they are animals. you seem to have an irrational emotional attachment which i and many people dont have.

Who the hell are you to judge??? more than likely you have an irrational attachment to something that we may not understand but no-one would mock you for it.
Do not come into a forum NAMED Animal and pet issues which is quite clearly going to be filled with people who have an appreciation/love/respect for animals and mock
I am so angry at how disrespectful you are being
I cant express my full annoyance and hatred at small minded people like you as i will be warned by the mods for the language i would use.

Hellrazer

Loopsie wrote: »

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

Who the hell are you to judge??? more than likely you have an irrational attachment to something that we may not understand but no-one would mock you for it.
Do not come into a forum NAMED Animal and pet issues which is quite clearly going to be filled with people who have an appreciation/love/respect for animals and mock
I am so angry at how disrespectful you are being
I cant express my full annoyance and hatred at small minded people like you as i will be warned by the mods for the language i would use.

Thats totally uncalled for.Now I asked a few pages back for everyone to calm it down.
Im issuing a yellow card for this post.

Discodog

ppink wrote: »

What does coolmore have to do with this years GN? I did not think they had any horses in the GN since the 50's (Ballydoyle that is)??

We are being told that millionaire owners treat racehorses like royalty. However this may be far from the truth if the rumoured number of horses killed, due to the recession, is true. After all these people can afford to look after all their horses - even the slow ones. As with Greyhounds the numbers killed are a closely guarded secret, even though we give racing some of our hard earned taxes.

I don't think that it is off topic to discuss the disposable attitude towards racehorses. After all it is this attitude that allows events that clearly push the endurance & safety of horses beyond acceptable limits.

PeakOutput

Discodog wrote: »

We are being told that millionaire owners treat racehorses like royalty. However this may be far from the truth if the rumoured number of horses killed, due to the recession, is true. After all these people can afford to look after all their horses - even the slow ones. As with Greyhounds the numbers killed are a closely guarded secret, even though we give racing some of our hard earned taxes.

I don't think that it is off topic to discuss the disposable attitude towards racehorses. After all it is this attitude that allows events that clearly push the endurance & safety of horses beyond acceptable limits.

What has them being killed got to do with anything? As long as they are treated well during their life and it is done in a pain free and humane manner it is a non issue.

Discodog

PeakOutput wrote: »

What has them being killed got to do with anything? As long as they are treated well during their life and it is done in a pain free and humane manner it is a non issue.

Non issue to you & a big issue to me. Do you think that the same rule should apply to dogs ?.

ppink

i think most of the national hunt horses are owned by ordinary joes not millionaires. the big money is in the flat...ie coolmore and ballydoyle end of things.

there are of course some wealthy owners for NH but most are syndicates of joe soaps who want a horse.

thats just what i think, I am sure some more in the know will correct me if i am wrong.

PeakOutput

Discodog wrote: »

Non issue to you & a big issue to me. Do you think that the same rule should apply to dogs ?.

If a dog owner couldn't afford to keep their dog any longer I wouldn't have a problem with them being able to have them put down, obviously rehoming is a better option but its not always possible and the dog would end up being put down anyway.

in fact I kinda just assumed they could already do this tbh.

eilo1

Ironically a good number of NH horses especially hurdlers will have come from running on the flat. :rolleyes:

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=659723

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=666477

This is really off topic DD.
You seem to have an idea of rich toffs just going out shooting their horses if they dont win races. Its really isnt like that and that really isnt the topic of discussion.

pokertalk

eilo1 wrote: »

Ironically a good number of NH horses especially hurdlers will have come from running on the flat. :rolleyes:

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=659723

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=666477

This is really off topic DD.
You seem to have an idea of rich toffs just going out shooting their horses if they dont win races. Its really isnt like that and that really isnt the topic of discussion.

the fact of the matter is that horses that dont live up to the trainers/owners expectations do get killed ,not all im saying some

eilo1

pokertalk wrote: »

the fact of the matter is that horses that dont live up to the trainers/owners expectations do get killed ,not all im saying some

Some people do put their horses down, its not exclusive to racing or even horses. People put their pet dogs and cats down for various reasons.
I know a girl who put her dauchshund down because it used to nip at peoples ankles. That doesnt mean no one should be aloud to own a dog.

pokertalk

eilo1 wrote: »

Some people do put their horses down, its not exclusive to racing or even horses. People put their pet dogs and cats down for various reasons.
I know a girl who put her dauchshund down because it used to nip at peoples ankles. That doesnt mean no one should be aloud to own a dog.

yes but people get their dogs put down if they are a danger to people,sick or old.what reason is there to put a healthy horse dow,??
as for the girl who got her dauchshund pts she should have never had a dog to begin with. so maybe when you said that doesnt mean nobody should be aloud to own a dog . maybe some people should not that way we would have far less strays.putting a dog to sleep for nipping ankles is not a good enough reason imo

eilo1

pokertalk wrote: »

yes but people get their dogs put down if they are a danger to people,sick or old.what reason is there to put a healthy horse dow,??
as for the girl who got her dauchshund pts she should have never had a dog to begin with. so maybe when you said that doesnt mean nobody should be aloud to own a dog . maybe some people should not that way we would have far less strays.putting a dog to sleep for nipping ankles is not a good enough reason imo

I dont really know what you are getting at? It doesnt matter what your opinion is in the grand scheme of things, people are aloud to keep animals and discard of them as they please. (as long as the animal is not made to suffer).

People seem to have this opinion that race horse owners and trainers just walk out into the field and shoot their horses because they cant be bothered to retrain them or something. It just isnt like that, you work in racing because you love horse. Its a bloody tough industry and the people in it are in it because of the love of horses.

When it comes to animals that are no longer good for racing the trainers will normally try and have them re-homed or bring them to sales such as Gorebridge.

Iv personally retrained 2 racehorses that were given to me by my previous employers. I did riding club events with them and sold them on as riding horses. Jessica Harrington (a leading NH trainer) gave Moscow Flyer to the IHPL to use for media purposes.

Some horses are kept by the trainers or owners just as pets or used as lead horses or "nannys" for foals.

Unfortunately sometimes the yards are over run with animals and the trainers need to clear horses. If there is no other option then horses can be sent to the factory where they end up as dog food. In these cases the horses are humanly killed by professionals and the carcase is used for another purpose.
This happens in all horse yards and more recently peoples pets as well.

pokertalk

eilo1 wrote: »

I dont really know what you are getting at? It doesnt matter what your opinion is in the grand scheme of things, people are aloud to keep animals and discard of them as they please. (as long as the animal is not made to suffer).

People seem to have this opinion that race horse owners and trainers just walk out into the field and shoot their horses because they cant be bothered to retrain them or something. It just isnt like that, you work in racing because you love horse. Its a bloody tough industry and the people in it are in it because of the love of horses.

When it comes to animals that are no longer good for racing the trainers will normally try and have them re-homed or bring them to sales such as Gorebridge.

Iv personally retrained 2 racehorses that were given to me by my previous employers. I did riding club events with them and sold them on as riding horses. Jessica Harrington (a leading NH trainer) gave Moscow Flyer to the IHPL to use for media purposes.

Some horses are kept by the trainers or owners just as pets or used as lead horses or "nannys" for foals.

Unfortunately sometimes the yards are over run with animals and the trainers need to clear horses. If there is no other option then horses can be sent to the factory where they end up as dog food. In these cases the horses are humanly killed by professionals and the carcase is used for another purpose.
This happens in all horse yards and more recently peoples pets as well.

so what becomes of a horse that never really got going
my point is that no horse that is healthy should be pts, like any other pet. do you have a problem with a healthy horse being put to sleep??

blondie_507

I know I may not have many posts on here, but being from a horsey background, I as well as many on here do not like to see horses dying, but calls for fences to be made smaller will not only speed up the race more than it is now, but there would definately be more casualties next year because of it. Years ago when the fences were bigger, more care and less speed were the key elements to the GN, whereas with the heights of the fences now, the speed at which it is run is greater, hence the 2nd quickest in history. I will also agree with the people who state that you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, you can ask a horse to jump, but it does not mean that it will. I for one have often been dumped unceremoniously on the floor when the horse has decided 'Not today Mum!' Race horses trained for jumps or hurdles, are not being forced to run the race, you can see on many horses that jumping is a pure enjoyment for them. Accidents happen, as horrible as they are, regardless of whether it is during the GN, hurdles, flat, training, hunting, showjumping etc and sometimes it may prove fatal.

eilo1

pokertalk wrote: »

so what becomes of a horse that never really got going
my point is that no horse that is healthy should be pts, like any other pet. do you have a problem with a healthy horse being put to sleep??

If you reread my posts you will understand all the options available for a thoroughbred apart from racing!

Oh and can I just ask, for someone so concerned about the health of our horses have you ever rehomed or retrained a race horse? Have you ever donated your hard earned cash or free time to the IHPL or stayed up all night in a stable with a colicing animal to ensure they are comfortable?

ppink

pokertalk wrote: »

so what becomes of a horse that never really got going
my point is that no horse that is healthy should be pts, like any other pet. do you have a problem with a healthy horse being put to sleep??

are horses pets though?

not too many thoroughbreds will be classed as pets I'd imagine, in fact not many horses at all?