Now a THIRD GoSafe van is torched

thebullkf

-Chris- wrote: »

I would think the best place to draw the line is:

It's ok to like the vans and what they're achieving.
It's ok to hate the vans and what they represent.
It's not ok to condone criminal damage and possible manslaughter, whether we agree with what the person was doing at the time or not.


This next bit is not aimed at you thebullkf...

Seriously, that's someone's son or daughter operating that van.
You can rail all you like about the positioning of the vans, whether they're safety related or just revenue collectors, how much tolerance they should have before they issue a fine...
I don't see how anyone can justify the malicious burning of someone's vehicle/place of work and I worry about what would happen if next time it occurs there's a fatality and a grieving family member happens across some of the posts here where people gloat about these attacks.

You don't think I'd allow a thread/post that said it was ok to run over Gardai, beat up clampers or set fire to tax inspectors, do you? Why would this be any different?


Anyway, apologies for going off topic again, and I hope everyone realises these questions are rhetorical - this request stands (although I'm more than happy to explain my thinking on-thread) and arguing against it will just take the thread off topic.

Thanks

cheers Chris, i don't agree with the burning,but can understand the frustration borne that would lead to said burning. Of course,as usual , the human element is forgotten- the poor sod in the van:(

I despise these vans,and what they represent- ie pure money making. not
road safety. I think most people would agree with this?

If we want to curb road deaths,and foster good etiquette ,we need to educate, and reward good behaviour as opposed to punishing bad behaviour.

Maybe:

Driving competency tests should be every five years,
Tax breaks for safer road users-ie reduced road tax....among others?

corktina

much simpler to fit speed limiters...cant be THAT hard tecnologically....Is the political will there though?

DWCommuter

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

You have to love the great Irish public. Bankrupt the state and they'll lie down, accept it, and meekly vote in politicians who are more of the same, but introduce some new speed camera's and suddenly we get a campaign of civil disobedience/mindless violence expressing their dissatisfaction with them.

What a country.

Now that is exactly what I was thinking when I read this thread earlier. Thank you for articulating it.

keithc83

Those people that are carrying out these attacks are simply thugs. They deserve to be locked up. And anyone who condones these attacks should be ashamed. Would you condone an arson attack on your own vehicle?! Just because these are vans owned by the State doesn't mean its ok to cause criminal damage. Common sense needs to prevail.

And invinciblePRSTV your post was spot on.

SeanW

corktina wrote: »

much simpler to fit speed limiters...cant be THAT hard tecnologically....Is the political will there though?

1. It would accomplish shag all - SPECS cameras at known black spots would be more sensible.
2. It would be a violation of civil liberties.
3. It would cost a fortune - either the State, or it would be more cost imposed on motorists who are already treated like milk cows and regulated very heavily.
4. It would remove a valuable revenue stream from the gov't - speeding fines. That's all these vans are there for anyway.
5. People may need to speed in emergencies - a person may need to rush themselves or someone else to the hospital, may have to flee a criminal pursuit or riot quickly or other emergencies may require prompt travel.

gurramok

I do often wonder why I never see a speed camera van in one of the marked routes in the North Inner city, Dublin. Is it because it's too dodgy for the operator to put a van there?

I mean, its one of those area's you hear and see(yes i've seen Gardai with guns down there) about the ERU on patrol regularly and people would not walk through there at night. In relation to the topic, do GoSafe have a list of areas they avoid in order to not attract violent attention?

Rodin

corktina wrote: »

much simpler to fit speed limiters...cant be THAT hard tecnologically....Is the political will there though?

Presumably garda cars/ambulances/fire brigades would be exempt from said limiters?
I'd certainly not want a speed limiter being the reason I can't get out of trouble quick enough
Would these limiters automatically kick in for example on entering a 60kph zone?
How would this technologically work?

DWCommuter

thebullkf wrote: »

cheers Chris, i don't agree with the burning,but can understand the frustration borne that would lead to said burning. Of course,as usual , the human element is forgotten- the poor sod in the van:(

I despise these vans,and what they represent- ie pure money making. not
road safety. I think most people would agree with this?

If we want to curb road deaths,and foster good etiquette ,we need to educate, and reward good behaviour as opposed to punishing bad behaviour.

Maybe:

Driving competency tests should be every five years,
Tax breaks for safer road users-ie reduced road tax....among others?

While some may think that an Irish dislike to a concept that prevents them from speeding is the reason for hating these vans, I feel it has more to do with more harmful crimes generating less of a crackdown, while petty crimes like out of date road tax are easy targets. Speeding and drink driving which are potentially murderous crimes are caught in this mix. People seem to feel aggrieved that they are caught quicker for road traffic offences than murderers, rapists, terrorists, muggers, bankers (new one on the list:D) or just the scumbag that punches the head of you on the street.

I believe there is a very unbalanced approach to the Law in Ireland and this causes a lot of public bad feeling. It doesn't justify setting fire to one of these vans, but it does possibly explain the mindset. Personally I am sick and tired of seeing the huge Garda presence on our roads while other more aggravating crimes go unpunished and receive less focus. Funnily enough I experienced an example today in my local shop. A fine sunny morning, so I played some ball in the park with my daughter and went home via the local shop. While in there 3 "kids" came in and blatantly stole 3 six packs of soft drinks. They were brazen and didn't even attempt to be sneaky about it. The girl behind the counter obviously got upset, called the Gardai and I waited to back her up. The Garda arrived, was told the story, knew who had done it, went off to enforce the law and then came back to explain that it will probably go nowhere useful as they are minors with previous form. The owner of the shop was advised that he can get an "injunction" to prevent them entering his shop. (big money)

So getting back to transport. One of my vehicles currently has out of date road tax while awaiting repairs for a DOE, but still on the road. I simply do not have the resources to get all repairs done in one go, so its a step by step approach. I drive it in fear of being caught, even though it will be back taxed at no loss to the state once it passes the DOE. It could be technically impounded under the RTA. The risk of being caught is high. So when this example is benchmarked against my little experience in the local shop this morning, its easy to see why a hatred of these mobile speed camera vans has developed.

Equality is a great word, but appears to be defined differently in Ireland.

Please Note: I did not set fire to these vans.:D

GerardKeating

thebullkf wrote: »

i agree, disgraceful really- i'd do something about it if i wasn't so apathetic:p

Seriously though, i'm actually amazed there hasn't been more outcry..
I don't agree with the van burning bit, but i don't agree with the vans either. usually placed in revenue raising areas,not the real accident blackspots.

I have only speak for my little part of west Galway, we had an infestation of them the past month, one actually parked opposite a memorial plaque for an accident a few years back, the other on a a share S bend of which I have no personal knowledge of an accident, but have seen a good few near misses.

And this one that was burnt out today is near the site of the worst car accident in the history of the state...

couldntthink

Judgement Day wrote: »

With your attitude I shouldn't think that you approve of any form of law enforcement, so don't be shy in admitting it.

Are you working for Gosafe by any chance?

As pointed out by someone else, it's the fact that the cops seem to be constantly harping on about this and that crack down on speeding. In my opinion they focus on this because it's easy to catch people speeding. Speeding will always be a problem unless they target the source of the problem instead of the result of the problem. The result is speeding while the source is attitude. There will never be enough cops or cameras to stamp out speeding but they can do something about driver education. Our legislation is pathetic, and our testing system is irrelevant in the real world.

Mr. Judgement you must forgive my seemingly negative attitude towards law enforcement. My car was stolen, cops told me to look for it myself, my dad's trailer was stolen while parked outside a garda station with the typical "theres very little we can do", I could go on and on with more examples of this type. I also think you must be a very good judge of character to be able to decide I have no respect for the law. Never even had my name taken, no traffic offences, I pretty much never break the speed limit unless by about 5 or 6 km/h. Yet I have to suffer driving behind people doing 50 - 60 in a 100 zone with 2 or 3 knobheads behind who won't overtake. You then end up with a line of frustrated motorists who then try and overtake several cars at once. When will these people be prosecuted for what I consider to be reckless driving. Bear in mind I do understand some people drive slow, but pull over every now and again because you are a menace.

Cookie_Monster

DWCommuter wrote: »

I believe there is a very unbalanced approach to the Law in Ireland and this causes a lot of public bad feeling. It doesn't justify setting fire to one of these vans, but it does possibly explain the mindset.

This is exactly it I think. People get pissed off that a few kph over the limit and you get fine and points but shoot someone of "lose" 1 bn quid and nothing generally happens.

Did they not catch a guy for doing one of the previous two vans at some point? I thought I saw that on the news, if so what did he get charged with, if anything?

thebullkf

GerardKeating wrote: »

I have only speak for my little part of west Galway, we had an infestation of them the past month, one actually parked opposite a memorial plaque for an accident a few years back, the other on a a share S bend of which I have no personal knowledge of an accident, but have seen a good few near misses.

And this one that was burnt out today is near the site of the worst car accident in the history of the state...

good points, what about the ones on the N4,N7,old airport road,under the [EMAIL="bridge@M1/M50"]bridge@M1/M50[/EMAIL] interchange...and my personal favourite, Whitehall Church, catching unsuspecting motorists,coming off a Motorway,drops to 60km/h...then 50km/h...within 100metres...?

its obvious,disgusting and frankly divides peoples attitudes to the guards. i've yet to see a Garda standing out in the Pi$$ing rain with a Gatso?

No doubt they were out today on the revenue routes.:rolleyes:, given the weather,and o/t.
we don't enforce our existing laws for a start.
I heard from an excellent source that 8% of motorists are driving uninsured approx.
That tells its own story tbh.
The answer is simple,education,and a reward system for safe driving and motivating yourself to be a safer,better,more courteous driver.
They won't do that cos its down to money.
same with prices of cigs-they make too much revenue selling them.
hence the gradual increases as opposed to slapping a fiver on a pack @ budget time.

The ironic thing is,we know all this.....

ardmacha

The answer is simple,education,

Education me eye. Pretty much everyone knows how to drive, they just choose not to.

You then end up with a line of frustrated motorists who then try and overtake several cars at once. When will these people be prosecuted for what I consider to be reckless driving.

I agree that this type of overtaking is reckless driving and should be prosecuted. But speeding should too.

couldntthink

ardmacha wrote: »

Education me eye. Pretty much everyone knows how to drive, they just choose not to.



I agree that this type of overtaking is reckless driving and should be prosecuted. But speeding should too.

I actually meant the people driving too slow and causing the tail back without pulling over should be prosecuted for obstructing traffic. Obviously the reckless overtakers should too, and I once drove to a copshop after witnessing a particularly bad incident to report but of course "not much we can do".

I regularly travel on the headford road out of galway (which is approx 7-8 miles of straight road) where some prick will be doing 60 k on a dry road with a line of rush hour traffic behind them. Assholes in my opinion. And the best of all are the people who drive at 60 in a 100k zone and don't slow down going through a 50 k zone. so are actually speeding. Could never understand the mentality of people like that. Do they not think I am clearly an inconsiderate asshole and should either proceed at a reasonable speed or pull over occasionally. I honk at these people when I overtake. It drives me absolutly nuts.

DWCommuter

ardmacha wrote: »

Education me eye. Pretty much everyone knows how to drive, they just choose not to.



I agree that this type of overtaking is reckless driving and should be prosecuted. But speeding should too.

I believe "couldntthink" meant the slower drivers that caused the overtaking were the reckless ones.

As for education, its too light although heading in the right direction. Get it right and you develop a culture. The current culture is steeped in old Ireland. A new culture is needed. Driving and road safety should be on the LC curriculum for a start.

And bring back Judge and the safe cross code.:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEssgMQ1O_k

ardmacha

I believe "couldntthink" meant the slower drivers that caused the overtaking were the reckless ones.

Surely not. Lack of consideration is not recklessness, it is just bad manners. Discourteous driving and dangerous driving should not be confused. One annoys, the other kills.

A new culture is needed.

Enforcement is part of the that new cultural change. Now I fully agree that there should be enforcement of things like keep left rules on the M50 as well as speeding campaigns and such a broader enforcement approach would enhance support for the speeding enforcement.

monument

couldntthink wrote: »

...Speeding will always be a problem unless they target the source of the problem instead of the result of the problem. The result is speeding while the source is attitude. There will never be enough cops or cameras to stamp out speeding but they can do something about driver education.

Attitudes have to be tackled, but speeding can be reduced by increasing the changes of getting caught (that's been done with a mix of speed cameras in private and garda vans, built into police cars and the old hand held ones). Only real nuts commit crimes when they think there's a good chance of getting caught. While the speed cameras can't be everywhere you lower speeds generally when people get the message that there's a reasonably good chance of getting caught.

couldntthink wrote: »

Yet I have to suffer driving behind people doing 50 - 60 in a 100 zone with 2 or 3 knobheads behind who won't overtake. You then end up with a line of frustrated motorists who then try and overtake several cars at once. When will these people be prosecuted for what I consider to be reckless driving. Bear in mind I do understand some people drive slow, but pull over every now and again because you are a menace.

Have you ever reported these drivers for reckless driving? Traffic Watch is 1890 205 805 and you are allow to us a phone to ring the Gardai while driving.

You said something about attitudes needing adjusting? You may want to look closer to home. People driving slowly may be annoying but the menace only there are the reckless drivers.

DWCommuter

ardmacha wrote: »

and such a broader enforcement approach would enhance support for the speeding enforcement.

Its lacking and this causes unrest.

dynamick

DWCommuter wrote: »

People seem to feel aggrieved that they are caught quicker for road traffic offences than murderers, rapists, terrorists, muggers, bankers (new one on the list:D) or just the scumbag that punches the head of you on the street.

Killing someone in a speeding vehicle is a worse crime than rape, mugging & bank fraud. Road safety policy is saving 200 lives a year compared to 5 years ago and has clearly been one of the most effective allocations of state resources.

GoSafe cameras are not operated by the gardai so they don't divert garda attention from other offences.

3 "kids" came in and blatantly stole 3 six packs of soft drinks...One of my vehicles currently has out of date road tax while awaiting repairs for a DOE..I drive it in fear of being caught...The risk of being caught is high... So when this example is benchmarked against my little experience in the local shop this morning...

Whoa horsey! I had to read this a couple of times to take it in. You are admitting that you are allowing one of your commercial vehicles to be driven despite being unroadworthy and untaxed and your complaint is that you feel worried that you are likely to be caught because the gardai don't spend enough time chasing children who steal fizzy pop?

Tragedy

dynamick wrote: »

Killing someone in a speeding vehicle is a worse crime than rape, mugging & bank fraud.

Actually, legally it's not worse than rape & bank fraud to the best of my knowledge?

Road safety policy is saving 200 lives a year compared to 5 years ago and has clearly been one of the most effective allocations of state resources.

Absolute unmitigated lies.
There are 200 less road deaths a year compared to 5 years ago.
How many of them are down to

• Improved/Newer roads
• Safer cars
• Less people driving
• RSA Road Policy

is something no-one can answer.
But one thing is definite, you can't attribute all of them to the states road safety policy :rolleyes:

GoSafe cameras are not operated by the gardai so they don't divert garda attention from other offences.

True, but they're being paid €16million a year that could be spent elsewhere. Like on improving, enlarging and educating the Traffic Corps perhaps, where we would see rewards based on more than dropping peoples speed a few km/h?
Vans don't catch dangerous driving, they don't catch people going too fast for the conditions, they catch people going over an arbitrary limit that can be lower or higher than it should be.

dynamick

Tragedy wrote: »

Actually, legally it's not worse than rape & bank fraud to the best of my knowledge?

Killing people is the moral trump card.

But one thing is definite, you can't attribute all of them to the states road safety policy

Maybe you're not familiar with the state's road safety strategy. Safer roads, safer vehicles, education, enforcement and legislation were all included in 126 actions set in 2007 to reduce fatalities. The improvement was dramatic and can't be argued with. The policy was massively successful.
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/RSA_Strategy_ENG_s.pdf

Of the factors you listed, only 'fewer people driving' is not a road safety policy and it can't explain a 50% reduction in fatalities. Can it now?

True, but they're being paid €16million a year that could be spent elsewhere. Like on improving, enlarging and educating the Traffic Corps perhaps, where we would see rewards based on more than dropping peoples speed a few km/h?

Are you simultaneously arguing that the state is wasting money on speed cameras while also using them as revenue generating devices? Unsurprisingly the cameras are expected to at least cover their costs.

Vans don't catch dangerous driving, they don't catch people going too fast for the conditions, they catch people going over an arbitrary limit that can be lower or higher than it should be.

They result in lower average speeds, allowing more time for avoidance manoeuvres, leading to fewer collisions and reducing the severity of those that do occur. This leads to fewer deaths and serious injuries.

L1011

dynamick wrote: »

They result in lower average speeds, allowing more time for avoidance manoeuvres, leading to fewer collisions and reducing the severity of those that do occur. This leads to fewer deaths and serious injuries.

Not when they're used on roads where the average speed *and* the safe speed is below the actual stated limit - e.g. about 60% of our road network

There is barely a road in Ireland outside of a town centre with an appopriate limit; goat tracks get 80km/h whereas R road dual carriageways get 60, etc.

dynamick

If the safe speed is below the stated limit then there is all the more reason to enforce the stated limit.

Local councils have the power to set speed limits (RTA 2004), so if you don't like a stated limit on a local road, you can lobby to have it reduced.

yourpics

If the vans are for road safety and not money making then I suggest that each motorist caught speeding receives a short ban from driving i.e. one week driving ban instead of a fine

corktina

SeanW wrote: »

1. It would accomplish shag all - SPECS cameras at known black spots would be more sensible.
2. It would be a violation of civil liberties.
3. It would cost a fortune - either the State, or it would be more cost imposed on motorists who are already treated like milk cows and regulated very heavily.
4. It would remove a valuable revenue stream from the gov't - speeding fines. That's all these vans are there for anyway.
5. People may need to speed in emergencies - a person may need to rush themselves or someone else to the hospital, may have to flee a criminal pursuit or riot quickly or other emergencies may require prompt travel.

How much does one fatality on the road cost? I take it from your lame objections that you like to speed?

corktina

re people driving too slowly...yes, they are annoying but did you ever stop to think that they might not be safe to drive faster?

Generally its fast drivers who are less safe not slow ones and its the fast guys the Vans are out to reduce.

Im not a slow driver myself, in fact I speed most of the time, but I can see the Road Safety arguement...its time we all slowed down and these vans have already had an impact on my attitude.

thebullkf

ardmacha wrote: »

Education me eye. Pretty much everyone knows how to drive, they just choose not to

.


no. they don't. not properly, if they did-we wouldn't have half the accidents we currently do. the fact you don't realise this is indicative of the malaise in irish driving standards. i've driven in many countries, we are sorely lacking in competency, and good road etiquette, drivers,cyclists,motorcyclists and pedestrians.

DWCommuter

dynamick wrote: »

Whoa horsey! I had to read this a couple of times to take it in. You are admitting that you are allowing one of your commercial vehicles to be driven despite being unroadworthy and untaxed and your complaint is that you feel worried that you are likely to be caught because the gardai don't spend enough time chasing children who steal fizzy pop?

I am entitled to drive the vehicle pending repairs and a retake of the test. The defects are not serious in nature. If they were, then the testing centre are obliged to tell you and recommend that the vehicle should not be driven. In general your post is mis-representative of what I said. You are implying that my vehicle is dangerous and I am deliberately breaking the law. That is not the case. The vehicle will pass its test and be taxed. Who's live are affected by this?

you feel worried that you are likely to be caught because the gardai don't spend enough time chasing children who steal fizzy pop?

I never said that. Thats the spin you have put on it. I'm worried about being caught because I know the chances are high as there is a big Garda presence on the roads and I think there is less of a Garda presence in other areas. Seperate issues that may explain peoples annoyance at the speed vans. Im putting forward possible reasons for what is fact and not attempting to judge anyone.

Tragedy

dynamick wrote: »

Killing people is the moral trump card.

Maybe you're not familiar with the state's road safety strategy. Safer roads, safer vehicles, education, enforcement and legislation were all included in 126 actions set in 2007 to reduce fatalities. The improvement was dramatic and can't be argued with. The policy was massively successful.
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/RSA_Strategy_ENG_s.pdf

Just showing your own ignorance now, I don't know of a single completed new N or M road that was only in planning when those policies cam in. Handy that you still claim them though.

Of the factors you listed, only 'fewer people driving' is not a road safety policy and it can't explain a 50% reduction in fatalities. Can it now?

Irish Policy is the reason why international car makers are improving safety? Wow, we aure do have an influential government.

Are you simultaneously arguing that the state is wasting money on speed cameras while also using them as revenue generating devices? Unsurprisingly the cameras are expected to at least cover their costs.

I don't recall claiming they are revenue generating devices. Please don't resort to strawmanning me because I caught your nonsense use of statistics out.

They result in lower average speeds, allowing more time for avoidance manoeuvres, leading to fewer collisions and reducing the severity of those that do occur. This leads to fewer deaths and serious injuries.

And yet oddly, RSA and AGS statistics state that excessive(NOT ILLEGAL) is only a contributory factor in the vast minority of accidents.

I guess you left that bit out when you were trying to lie to us all.

dynamick

Tragedy wrote: »

I don't know of a single completed new N or M road that was only in planning when those policies cam in. Handy that you still claim them though.

Irish multi-annual road safety strategies didn't start in 2007, they started in 1998. The 2007 strategy is the third strategy document in an evolving series.

Irish Policy is the reason why international car makers are improving safety? Wow, we aure do have an influential government.

National policy has an influence on vehicle safety through for example the NCT and DOE testing services, legislation & garda enforcement of unsafe vehicles, contributions at European level to the formulation of standards that have led to mandatory seatbelts, ABS, and now ESC etc.

I don't recall claiming they are revenue generating devices.

My apologies; I must have you confused with other anti-speed limit posters. What you did say was that the millions spent on the new speed camera contract would be better spent elsewhere, whereas in fact the safety camera program comes at no net cost.

And yet oddly, RSA and AGS statistics state that excessive(NOT ILLEGAL) is only a contributory factor in the vast minority of accidents

Is speed not a contributory factor in all accidents? The lower the speed the less serious the collision and the more time to take evasive action.