Rules of worship

himnextdoor

Is the idea of a statue of Mary Mother of Jesus being venerated at odds with the idolatry law of Islam?

And does the presence of such statues in schools cause any 'religious discomfort' to Muslims or family of Mulims who attend such schools?

himnextdoor

I was thinking more along the lines of, does Catholic iconography in schools create an intimidating atmosphere for Muslim pupils?

And in particular, I would be interested to know what a devout Muslim feels inwardly when he/she considers that people pray in front of statues of Mary and, in some cases, to Mary.

irishconvert

himnextdoor wrote: »

I was thinking more along the lines of, does Catholic iconography in schools create an intimidating atmosphere for Muslim pupils?

It wouldn't bother me in the slighest. I am living in a Christian country afterall.

himnextdoor wrote: »

And in particular, I would be interested to know what a devout Muslim feels inwardly when he/she considers that people pray in front of statues of Mary and, in some cases, to Mary.

I think they are doing wrong, I feel sorry for them but at the end of the day I don't lose any sleep about it.

dead one

himnextdoor wrote: »

Is the idea of a statue of Mary Mother of Jesus being venerated at odds with the idolatry law of Islam?

And does the presence of such statues in schools cause any 'religious discomfort' to Muslims or family of Mulims who attend such schools?
I was thinking more along the lines of, does Catholic iconography in schools create an intimidating atmosphere for Muslim pupils?

Islam takes a firm stand against idolatry in any form. To avoid any perception of idolatry, certain art forms and styles are forbidden in Islam. Any use of figurative art is forbidden, particularly statues, paintings, or other representations of living things. Islam takes the position that such objects (like statutes) have often been used to glorify or idolize people or creatures, in violation of God's law against idolatry. Thus, anything that can be construed as an idol is forbidden.

himnextdoor wrote: »

And in particular, I would be interested to know what a devout Muslim feels inwardly when he/she considers that people pray in front of statues of Mary and, in some cases, to Mary.

idolatry Most heinous sin as per Islam.

Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. Quran 4:48

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Islam takes a firm stand against idolatry in any form. To avoid any perception of idolatry, certain art forms and styles are forbidden in Islam. Any use of figurative art is forbidden, particularly statues, paintings, or other representations of living things. Islam takes the position that such objects (like statutes) have often been used to glorify or idolize people or creatures, in violation of God's law against idolatry. Thus, anything that can be construed as an idol is forbidden.

Why are images of physical object only seen as idols? What about ideas? Can people not idolise ideas, without the need of an image of what that idea represents?

dead one wrote: »

idolatry Most heinous sin as per Islam.

Its called shirk, right?

himnextdoor

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why are images of physical object only seen as idols? What about ideas? Can people not idolise ideas, without the need of an image of what that idea represents?

I think that 'Idols' are gods that are fashioned by the hand.

To entertain (false) ideas would come under the description of heresy, wouldn't it?

hivizman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why are images of physical object only seen as idols? What about ideas? Can people not idolise ideas, without the need of an image of what that idea represents?

Its called shirk, right?

The word shirk comes from the arabic root ش ر ك (shīn rā kāf), which has a general sense of sharing. Words based on the root pop up in secular contexts, for example there is a form of partnership used in Islamic finance called musharaka.

In the Qur'an, the term is used to describe those who worship idols - mushrikīn - and this word is translated by some as "polytheists", by others as "idolators", and by yet others as "pagans". In most contexts in the Qur'an, it implies the arabs who had not yet embraced Islam and hence were still worshipping their traditional gods. Many of these recognised Allah as the supreme God, but considered that the tribal idols were "associate" divine beings. Hence, shirk is often described as "associating partners with Allah".

Just as in Christianity, the concept of idolatry does not need to relate to a physical object - anything that is put on a level with God is an idol. As Matthew 6:24 states: "No one can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Mammon [wealth]."

Some scholars distinguish between "major shirk", which would involve a specific act of worship devoted to anything other than Allah, and "minor shirk", which would involve putting something or someone on a level with, or even above, Allah. For example, the Saudi Arabian scholar Muhammad ibn al-Uthaymīn described personal "showing off" as minor shirk, because it means that one is ascribing to oneself powers and abilities that are considered to belong to Allah alone. In this sense, shirk can include putting an idea, belief or philosophy above Islam - for example, some Muslims would argue that regarding certain human rights as absolute is shirk, unless those rights can be shown to derive from the Qur'an and/or Sunnah.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why are images of physical object only seen as idols? What about ideas? Can people not idolise ideas, without the need of an image of what that idea represents?

To understand idolatry in Islam you have to see Quran.
let see what is idolatry and look at various definitions of Idolatry given in the Quran.
1. Calf, statues as an Idols (2:51, 21:51-53).

And We had certainly given Abraham his sound judgement before, and We were of him well-Knowing
When he said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoted?"
They said, "We found our fathers worshippers of them."
http://quran.com/21/51-53

2. Worshipping other gods (is worshipping the devil) (4:117)

They call upon instead of Him none but female [deities], and they [actually] call upon none but a rebellious Satan.
http://quran.com/4/117

3. Jesus as idol (5:72).

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
http://quran.com/5/72

4.4. Jinns as idols (6:100).

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters. Exalted is He and high above what they describe
http://quran.com/6/100

5. Children as idols (7:190).

But when He gives them a good [child], they ascribe partners to Him concerning that which He has given them. Exalted is Allah above what they associate with Him.
http://quran.com/7/190

6. Humans as idols (7:194).

Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful http://quran.com/7/194

7. "Intercessors" as Idols (10:18). From the Quran, it is obvious - there is no intercession by anyone on the Day of Judgment.

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him

8. Satan as idol (14:22).

And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allah ] before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment."
http://quran.com/14/22

9. Property as idol (18:42).

So his fruits were encircled (with ruin). And he remained clapping his hands with sorrow over what he had spent upon it, while it was all destroyed on its trellises, he could only say: "Would I had ascribed no partners to my Lord!" [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
http://quran.com/18/42

10. Prophets & messengers as idols (3:79).

It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah ," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
http://quran.com/3/79

11. God's servants as idols (18:102).

Then do those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants instead of Me as allies? Indeed, We have prepared Hell for the disbelievers as a lodging.
http://quran.com/18/102

12. EGO as idol (25:43). Most humans, because of their ego cannot bring themselves to worship God, nor can they make their opinion subordinate to God's opinion spelled out in the Quran because of their ego.

Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?
http://quran.com/25/43

quran=
Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]."

13. Religious leaders and scholars as idols (9:31, 2:257, 6:137). We learn from the Quran that idols cannot Judge (40:20), idols cannot create anything and are powerless (13:16, 46:4) and idols do not bring us closer to God (39:3). We learn that idolaters follow conjecture (6:148, 98:1) and that idolaters DENY IDOL WORSHIP - now & on the Day of Judgment (6:22-24).

The Quran points out that the MAJORITY of those who worship God fall into IDOLATRY (12:103, 12:106).

And most of the people, although you strive [for it], are not believers.
http://quran.com/12/103
And most of them believe not in Allah except while they associate others with Him
http://quran.com/12/106
I hope it will clear all your doubts

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Its called shirk, right?

Yes it is

blorg

dead one wrote: »

Islam takes a firm stand against idolatry in any form. To avoid any perception of idolatry, certain art forms and styles are forbidden in Islam. Any use of figurative art is forbidden, particularly statues, paintings, or other representations of living things. Islam takes the position that such objects (like statutes) have often been used to glorify or idolize people or creatures, in violation of God's law against idolatry. Thus, anything that can be construed as an idol is forbidden.

Shias don't have as much of a problem with figurative art. The image of Ali is immensely popular in Iran, even in mosques.

Mark Hamill

Thanks for you response, your posts are always very detailed and interesting

hivizman wrote: »

For example, the Saudi Arabian scholar Muhammad ibn al-Uthaymīn described personal "showing off" as minor shirk, because it means that one is ascribing to oneself powers and abilities that are considered to belong to Allah alone. In this sense, shirk can include putting an idea, belief or philosophy above Islam - for example, some Muslims would argue that regarding certain human rights as absolute is shirk, unless those rights can be shown to derive from the Qur'an and/or Sunnah.

His argument makes no sense. If I show off, then I'm doing something difficult or skilful to demonstrate my prowess to someone. I can understand how it can be taken as not being a modest thing to do (and therefore is against the spirit of muslim rules of modesty), but, assuming I succeed in my showing off, I dont see how I'm ascribing powers that belong to Allah alone.

hivizman wrote: »

Just as in Christianity, the concept of idolatry does not need to relate to a physical object - anything that is put on a level with God is an idol.

dead one wrote:

10. Prophets & messengers as idols (3:79).

How about how someone muslims react to images of Muhammad or burning of the quran.
I can download a copy of the quran and delete - no-one bats and eyelid, but if I burned a quran, a very small number of people would react violently to such an action. It would seem to me that they take the physical form of the book as being more important than its actual contents, could that be taken as a form of idolatry?
Its similar of images of Muhammad, the quran is not, as far as I can tell, in favour of images of Muhammad but it doesn't proscribe violent punishment for people who do make images of him (maybe I'm wrong, though?). Could violent protest in answer to images of Muhammad be taken as idolatry too? Does it not idolise the idea of there no being images as it takes it far further than the idea was meant to represent?

himnextdoor

Mark Hamill wrote: »

His argument makes no sense. If I show off, then I'm doing something difficult or skilful to demonstrate my prowess to someone. I can understand how it can be taken as not being a modest thing to do (and therefore is against the spirit of muslim rules of modesty), but, assuming I succeed in my showing off, I dont see how I'm ascribing powers that belong to Allah alone.

I see what you mean. Showing off attracts mates.

Perhaps there is a subtle difference between arrogance and confidence. Sporty people need confidence but arrogance is distasteful to everyone. I'm thinking of Chris Eubank, a great boxer but disliked by many because of his attitude.

There is probably a world of difference between thinking that you are unbeatable as opposed to thinking that if it is the will of Allah, you won't be beat.

There

Hey I didn't really read the rest of the replies.

I have been a Muslim my whole life, I went to a catholic school here in Ireland, and none of the statues bother me. You have to respect other peoples relgions, doesnt stop me from going into some discussion on relgion but no what catholices choose to do is their business.

I dont agree with the practise obviosuly being Muslim idols are against our relgion, but I wouldnt complain about them being offensive and wanting them removed.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How about how someone muslims react to images of Muhammad or burning of the quran.
I can download a copy of the quran and delete - no-one bats and eyelid, but if I burned a quran, a very small number of people would react violently to such an action. It would seem to me that they take the physical form of the book as being more important than its actual contents,

Idolatry does not essentially require an absolute denial of the existence of God. Some time idolaters even don't know they are practicing idolatry. They deceive themselves throughout their lives. On the Day of Judgment, they still reject being involved in idolatry. The stance they adopt is explained in the following verse:

And [mention, O Muhammad], the Day We will gather them all together; then We will say to those who associated others with Allah , "Where are your 'partners' that you used to claim [with Him]?"
http://quran.com/6/22
Then there will be no [excuse upon] examination except they will say, "By Allah , our Lord, we were not those who associated."
http://quran.com/6/23
See how they will lie about themselves. And lost from them will be what they used to invent.
http://quran.com/6/24

Mark Hamill wrote: »

could that be taken as a form of idolatry?

yes it can be idolatry because they are giving more preference to something, than its actual contents. An idolater does not necessarily have to make "declarations. Idolatry resides primarily, in the heart and is then disclosed through word and deed. From Qur'anic perspective idolatry means, having a preference for a being other than God underlies it. Giving preference to the will of some person / something over the Will of God, for instance, fear of other people rather than fear of God, or an attachment to some person / something rather than to Him or his words . In simple words idolatry is the diversion of the feeling of "love" from God to other beings or other things. The strong attachment formed to idols is explained in the following verse:

And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . And if only they who have wronged would consider [that] when they see the punishment, [they will be certain] that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is severe in punishment.
http://quran.com/2/165

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Its similar of images of Muhammad, the quran is not, as far as I can tell, in favour of images of Muhammad but it doesn't proscribe violent punishment for people who do make images of him (maybe I'm wrong, though?). Could violent protest in answer to images of Muhammad be taken as idolatry too? Does it not idolise the idea of there no being images as it takes it far further than the idea was meant to represent?

I think i have given answer. The basis of idolatry is the preference for a person, or a thing over God. Unfortunately, many of Muslims all over the world are expressing their respect to the prophet Muhammad through idolizing him- a practice that is contrary to the teachings of the Quran .

It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah ," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
http://quran.com/3/79