Galway roundabouts set for upgrades

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

Your solution to a congested roundabout is to add two more?

I think that's a blinkered view and you should sit back and take a look at the road system in the area. The actual proposal aimed at removing two of the causes of the congestion and give the traffic space to move. The full solution requires the GCOB to take cross town traffic away from the roundabout entirely. Merely slapping a set of lights at the roundabout isn't going to help these two issues, in fact it'll probably make it worse.

I'm from the area so I've an idea of what is going on at Briarhill. I've also seen what too many sets of traffic lights and right turns do to a road - they turn it into a carpark at peak times and just annoy you at off peak times. When I'm in the Dublin office I refuse to use the car at peak times, and cycle to work if possible. Interestingly due to the amount of traffic lights it actually takes the same time to cycle as drive to the office when there's no traffic (I haven't driven at peak times but I'd guess it takes twice as long to drive). There are an awful lot of junctions in Dublin where right turns are not allowed for traffic reasons, I think this should be considered here (hence the suggestion about Dunnes).

A lot of the congestion at Briarhill is caused by the traffic trying to get out the Monivea Road but being stopped by the traffic lights and backing up onto the RAB causing further backlogs on the DC. The major problem here is the fact that there's so little room between the RAB & lights (about 100 yards). When the DC was originally built that road should have been re-routed into the junction & the Monivea road exit closed off entirely, I'm just proposing they do it 15 years late. Creating the link road gives us an extra 150 odd yards to play with, which will help improve the situation (but is not a solution).

Alternatively close it off anyways and anyone that want to use Parkmore or access the Monivea road can go out the Tuam road or Dual Carriageway to Glennascaul (I'm from the area, I wouldn't mind the detour much, it'd probably be safer too), but that's nearly as bad a suggestion as putting lights there in place of the roundabout.

The second suggestion is aimed at tackling the mess that is the Dunnes entrance/exit (which should never have gotten permission for that entrance). Preventing right turns would help, but

Along the way we'll get a system of junctions that is closer to being able to handle the traffic (a level it shouldn't have because the motorway was designed work in conjunction with the GCOB not drop it off at Briarhill).

As an added benefit it will take pedestrians & cyclists off the RAB entirely making it safer for everyone.

The current proposal just looks like an engineering companies dream payday but a road user's nightmare.

Iwannahurl

"...a road user's nightmare."

Last point first: again I reckon the term "road user" is automatically taken by many people to mean "car driver". There is an underlying assumption in our current traffic and transport culture that the car is king.

One reason that traffic lights -- and roundabouts -- are associated with traffic congestion in certain circumstances is that there is a limit to the amount of traffic that any junction can handle.

Theoretically one way of reducing traffic in Galway City would be to build a bypass. There are two major caveats with this proposal, however. The first is that the true purpose of the GCOB may not be traffic reduction but development expansion. The second is the well-established and well-recognised principle that building more roads does not reduce traffic in the long run; quite the opposite in fact.

The developer-led "planning" in Galway City (Doughiska/Briarhill being just one example) has been partly responsible for the traffic congestion in the area. One way to reduce private car traffic (which ought to be #1 priority IMO) in this locality, apart from cordon charging if feasible, is to provide for much greater use of public transport and cycling.

I am still waiting for a considered response from the pro-roundabout people regarding how such "free flow" junctions can allow buses to be prioritised in order to make sure that public transport more than holds its own against the private car. To the best of my knowledge there is no roundabout design that can prioritise buses in the way traffic signals can.

Since much of traffic and transport policy and debate has been premised on the apparently dearly-held principle that people "like" using their cars (as has been stated by Galway Chamber of Commerce for example) there is a clear need IMO for both incentives and disincentives aimed at reducing private car use. Such measures would directly address those motorists who currently would rather chew their own arm off than get out of the car.

To date provision for cycling to, from and within the area has been a sick joke. The Doughiska "cycle paths" are so ludicrous they actually featured in Warrington Cycling Campaign's internationally famous Cycle Facility of the Month website. The photo below was accompanied by this acerbic caption:

"Inspired by this example from Harlow, Galway City Council have created this even more ambitious scheme on Doughiska Road. Unfortunately, the cost of erecting Cyclists Dismount signs at the 18 junctions, 41 private drives and 12 bus stops interrupting this 1.4km shared use pavement proved prohibitive, so they had to compromise by painting Give Way markings on the pavement."

Mrs OBumble

antoobrien wrote: »

Close off the Monivea road exit (outbound) from the RAB. Build a road in through the business park to come out in the scrubland beside western motors and put a RAB at the current entrance to the park.

Umm, through which business park - the one that's on the other side of the dual carriageway from Monivea Rd? So that means anyone going from Doughiska to Parkmore has to go practically all the way to the Morris RAB to get onto a road thru the junction. Clever ...

Oh, and having all the trucks that make deliveries to Dunnes drive all the way down there (away from where they're going) or all the way down the Doughiska Rd suburban ... equally clever.

antoobrien

JustMary wrote: »

Umm, through which business park - the one that's on the other side of the dual carriageway from Monivea Rd? So that means anyone going from Doughiska to Parkmore has to go practically all the way to the Morris RAB to get onto a road thru the junction. Clever ...

Don't take this the wrong way but you don't seem to know the RAB at all, do you use the junction at all? Briahill Business Park is accessed (indirectly) from the Monivea road. The entrance is about 100 years away form those blasted lights on the Monivea road (which seem to go red every time I approach them not matter which side I come from). You don't even know where Western Motors is. I'd put up a map to display this but I uploading images seems to be disabled on here, so I'll quote myself here again to help try clarify this (slightly edited to remove extraneous opinion and make it clearer).

antoobrien wrote: »

Close off the Monivea road exit (outbound) from the RAB. Build a road in through the business park to come out in the scrubland beside western motors and put a RAB at the current entrance to the park. (edit this means that the Monivea road traffic goes the other side of western motors in a loop around to where the lights are)
Build a pedestrian overpass over the dual carriageways onto the roundabouts
Create a mini roundabout at the entrance to the Clayton or Doughiska and don't allow right turns into and out of Dunnes (similar to the set up of the retail park in Moneenagesha pre lights, if you want to turn right coming out, use the RAB).

The entrance I proposed would be between the dual Carriageway (westbound) and the current Monivea road exit and only affect traffic using Parkmore & the Monivea road.

antoobrien wrote: »

Oh, and having all the trucks that make deliveries to Dunnes drive all the way down there (away from where they're going) or all the way down the Doughiska Rd suburban ... equally clever.

What on gods good earth are you talking about? The proposal wouldn't affect the traffic from Doughiska or deliveries to Dunnes, which already has to go behind the center. So that means that the trucks are already either going through Doughiska or turning at the junction from the Briarhill end, which is a tight fit for the #9 bus.

I'm proposing adding an RAB within a hundred yards of the shopping center (which the entrance to the Clayton effectively is at some times of the day) to make getting into and out of Dunnes easier, while also attempting to cut down on backups onto the RAB, which do happen reasonably frequently. I'm not proposing sending any extra traffic down Doughiska. IMO putting a proper junction in here can only help access to both the center and Doughiska.

Btb the current city council plan doesn't seem to allow for the proposed Tesco development at the lights on the Monivea road (which I believe has PP for an entrance onto the lights).

johnnyk66

Btb the current city council plan doesn't seem to allow for the proposed Tesco development at the lights on the Monivea road (which I believe has PP for an entrance onto the lights).[/QUOTE]

There is no PP for tesco at this location:rolleyes:

sgthighway

What will the traffic be like in the evening times when most of it will be coming out of Parkmore and Ballybrit Ind Est.?

Iwannahurl

sgthighway wrote: »

What will the traffic be like in the evening times when most of it will be coming out of Parkmore and Ballybrit Ind Est.?

A good example of peak time traffic congestion, and its effect on non-car modes of travel.

I used to work in that area once upon a time, and I recall that there were long lines of traffic queueing for the lights near Western Motors. The buses got stuck in this traffic, and elsewhere along their route, and were frequently very late. I recall one occasion when I arrived at the bus stop at 16:55 and had to wait until 17:55 for a bus service advertised as running every 15 minutes. That's a typical reduction in the level of service for bus users caused by excess volumes of private cars, along with infrastructure (such as roundabouts) that force buses to mix with cars and lose the advantages that public transport ought to have.

QBCs and bus priority traffic signals are therefore needed to stop such situations occurring.

My own solution was to cycle, only resorting to the bus during the worst weather. Oh the joy of sailing past stalled traffic in Parkmore, along Lough Atalia Road and round by the Docks... :pac:

Mrs OBumble

antoobrien wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way but you don't seem to know the RAB at all, do you use the junction at all? Briahill Business Park is accessed (indirectly) from the Monivea road. The entrance is about 100 years away form those blasted lights on the Monivea road (which seem to go red every time I approach them not matter which side I come from). You don't even know where Western Motors is. I'd put up a map to display this but I uploading images seems to be disabled on here, so

I do know the area very well - well enough to know that the entrance Briarhill Business Park is off Parkmore Rd, not Monivea Rd, and it's actually about 500 ft = 166 yards from the lights. (Yes, I measured it on google maps ... )

NB maps is here: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=216643625317569454845.0004a486b835aa7f9985a&ll=53.291848,-8.984671&spn=0.014955,0.044975&z=15
we've never been able to paste images of maps into boards AFAIK.


I've realised that you are I are talking about different places: when you say Monivea Rd, you actually mean the bit of road that Google maps calls Ballybrit. (This may or may not be the right name for it, I know - Google is still calling Parkmore Rd "Ballybrit Crescent"). I thought you meant the western bit, which is why your proposal didn't make any sense to me.

I've now gone back and read your suggestions in light of what I now know about what you mean.

The improvement outside the shopping centre / Clayton bit makes sense.

But I can't see what difference it would make to close off the Monivea Rd exit from the RAB: the bulk of the traffic along that road is going to or from Parkmore Industrial estate, and making them loop thru yet another business park to get to work from the motorway in the morning won't change anything. And they'll still be held up in the afternoon by people coming along from town and Ballybrit industrial estate.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A good example of peak time traffic congestion, and its effect on non-car modes of travel.

I used to work in that area once upon a time, and I recall that there were long lines of traffic queueing for the lights near Western Motors. The buses got stuck in this traffic, and elsewhere along their route, and were frequently very late. I recall one occasion when I arrived at the bus stop at 16:55 and had to wait until 17:55 for a bus service advertised as running every 15 minutes. That's a typical reduction in the level of service for bus users caused by excess volumes of private cars, along with infrastructure (such as roundabouts) that force buses to mix with cars and lose the advantages that public transport ought to have.

QBCs and bus priority traffic signals are therefore needed to stop such situations occurring.

My own solution was to cycle, only resorting to the bus during the worst weather. Oh the joy of sailing past stalled traffic in Parkmore, along Lough Atalia Road and round by the Docks... :pac:

At the end of the day cars are still going to be transporting the vast majority of people so why should we slow progress of cars so half empty buses can get places faster.

You cant compare a city like galway to other big citys when it comes to public transport, its just not suitable for a very large number of people. For instance all the people that come in from around the county (and farther). The car is always going to be the only practical option for these.

ciotog

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

At the end of the day cars are still going to be transporting the vast majority of people so why should we slow progress of cars so half empty buses can get places faster.

You cant compare a city like galway to other big citys when it comes to public transport, its just not suitable for a very large number of people. For instance all the people that come in from around the county (and farther). The car is always going to be the only practical option for these.

Cars shouldn't be transporting the vast majority - it's grossly inefficient. Look at the last census figures for distances travelled: http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=110513 . There are huge numbers of people travelling short distances that are ideal for walking, cycling and public transport (or a combination).

what_traffic

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

You cant compare a city like galway to other big citys when it comes to public transport, its just not suitable for a very large number of people.

True - but you can compare it with similar sized towns. Dont see any references to a major city in this thread?

apoeiguq3094y

it could be worse!, here's a novel approach in china.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4LrSxjTIM

The advantage of lights is that everyone is held up. On a roundabout only some people are held up.

Caliden

Saw something about this on the news and laughed when I heard it say that it would encourage people to cycle to work.
The only reason there's so much traffic is because alot fo the workforce are well outside the city limits

ciotog

Caliden wrote: »

Saw something about this on the news and laughed when I heard it say that it would encourage people to cycle to work.
The only reason there's so much traffic is because alot fo the workforce are well outside the city limits

What about all the motor vehicles travelling short distances? See the link I posted above to the statistics from the 2006 census.

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

True - but you can compare it with similar sized towns. Dont see any references to a major city in this thread?

Its what people have in their head though, big citys where everyone live in densely populated areas where bus stops and underground stations etc are suitable for everyone.

A place like galway a lot of people travel in from around the country side where it would never be practical nor really desired by people to have public transport at a level which could accommodate a large number of commuters.

To be honest if I had free parking at my job I would always chose the car unless I lived within around 10 minutes walk. I like to have the freedom to leave for work, come home when I want not when a bus timetable dictates, I like to sit in a comfortable car rather than an uncomfortable bus, I want to be able to take detour somewhere on the way home if I chose, I like being able to go for a spin at lunch etc.

what_traffic

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

Its what people I have in their my head though

Corrected that opening sentence for ya.
You have to start thinking small and not just focused on public transport. Start by getting people walking, cycling and using existing public transport. FYI Just increasing frequency of existing bus services in the city has had a positive effect in Galway. Look at the NO 9 Doughiska service as an example of this.

Iwannahurl

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

At the end of the day cars are still going to be transporting the vast majority of people so why should we slow progress of cars so half empty buses can get places faster.

You cant compare a city like galway to other big citys when it comes to public transport, its just not suitable for a very large number of people. For instance all the people that come in from around the county (and farther). The car is always going to be the only practical option for these.

1. Cars are not transporting "the vast majority of people" in Galway City.

2. Many if not most cars are transporting a single occupant over distances that would be suitable for other modes of transport.

3. A single-occupant car is a grossly inefficient use of the finite road space available (not to mention the grotesque waste of finite fossil fuel due to the gross inefficiency of the internal combustion engine).

4. There are other cities in Europe not vastly bigger than Galway with better public transport systems, better control of private car use and better provision for cycling and walking.

5. We should promote the use of transport modes other than the single-occupant private car because it is more rational and sustainable than the alternative, ie growth in car dependence.

Iwannahurl

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

To be honest if I had free parking at my job I would always chose the car unless I lived within around 10 minutes walk. I like to have the freedom to leave for work, come home when I want not when a bus timetable dictates, I like to sit in a comfortable car rather than an uncomfortable bus, I want to be able to take detour somewhere on the way home if I chose, I like being able to go for a spin at lunch etc.

This is why Galway City needs road pricing/cordon charging asap.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This is why Galway City needs road pricing/cordon charging asap.

Road pricing can feck off so it can. Its pure nonsense nanny state crap trying to force people out of their cars. Car users already pay enough in tax etc, thats whys we pay it. Luckily opinions like your are rare enough in these parts and any attempt to introduce road pricing will be met with fierce opposition.

What about people who travel in from outside the city, why should they have to pay the extra cost of road pricing or go through the hardship and inconvenience of trying to use public transport when driving in makes much more sense. Serving sparsely populated areas with public transport to the level of freedom given by a car is impossible.

Is it any wonder I detest public transport when its supporters would like to see car users robbed of their hard earned cash for the pleasure of using the roads build to drive their cars on.

Car users pay much more already than non car users, VRT and VAT on purchase of the car, VAT and excise on petrol, VAT on parts, keep mechanics in work etc etc. This is much more than enough to entitle us to use our cars as we want.

Iwannahurl

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

Road pricing can feck off so it can. Its pure nonsense nanny state crap trying to force people out of their cars. Car users already pay enough in tax etc, thats whys we pay it. Luckily opinions like your are rare enough in these parts and any attempt to introduce road pricing will be met with fierce opposition.

What about people who travel in from outside the city, why should they have to pay the extra cost or go through the hardship and inconvenience of trying to use public transport when driving in makes much more sense. Serving sparsely populated areas with public transport to the level of freedom given by a car is impossible.

Is it any wonder I detest public transport when its supporters would like to see car users robbed of their hard earned cash for the pleasure of using the roads build to drive their cars on.

Car users pay much more already than non car users, VRT and VAT on purchase of the car, VAT and excise on petrol, VAT on parts, keep mechanics in work etc etc. This is much more than enough to entitle us to use our cars as we want.

Lots of things in this country are no wonder at all if the above opinions are commonplace.

This is the Galway City forum, by the way.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This is the Galway City forum, by the way.

People also happen to venture into the city on a regular basis from outside too, by the way. These will be the people most effected by changes in traffic management as they have no choice but to use their cars.

You may dislike my opinion but I cant understand why someone would by choice want to use public transport over driving.

Iwannahurl

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

People also happen to venture into the city on a regular basis from outside too, by the way. These will be the people most effected by changes in traffic management as they have no choice but to use their cars.

You may dislike my opinion but I cant understand why someone would by choice want to use public transport over driving.

Residents of Galway City, and people also happen to venture into the city from outside, can all use public transport (or other means of travel). It happens all the time elsewhere in Europe: people travel to a city such as Paris or London or Ghent or Graz and they hop on a bus, take the tram, catch a taxi, cycle a bike or walk. It's perfectly normal, though I appreciate that word of such happenings may take a long time to reach the West of Ireland.

Your lack of understanding is evident.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Residents of Galway City, and people also happen to venture into the city from outside, can all use public transport (or other means of travel). It happens all the time elsewhere in Europe: people travel to a city such as Paris or London or Ghent or Graz and they hop on a bus, take the tram, catch a taxi, cycle a bike or walk. It's perfectly normal, though I appreciate that word of such happenings may take a long time to reach the West of Ireland.

Your lack of understanding is evident.

So you think its feasible for a person living 3 or 4 miles from the main road to get their without a car possibly in the rain, travel the 14 miles into the city which may not even leave them near work, then do the same on the return. Thats leaving out all the hassle of having to suit timetables, what if you have somewhere else to go on the way home, shopping to do etc.

I would be in Galway in the car in the time it would take to walk to the main road to get a bus (which runs twice a day), why on earth would people put themselves through that.

And really whats wrong with people wanting to drive in, why do you want to force extra hassle and inconvenience on people.

Iwannahurl

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

So you think its feasible for a person living 3 or 4 miles from the main road to get their without a car possibly in the rain, travel the 14 miles into the city which may not even leave them near work, then do the same on the return. Thats leaving out all the hassle of having to suit timetables, what if you have somewhere else to go on the way home, shopping to do etc.

I would be in Galway in the car in the time it would take to walk to the main road to get a bus (which runs twice a day), why on earth would people put themselves through that.

And really whats wrong with people wanting to drive in, why do you want to force extra hassle and inconvenience on people.

This is what you wrote previously:

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

To be honest if I had free parking at my job I would always chose the car unless I lived within around 10 minutes walk. I like to have the freedom to leave for work, come home when I want not when a bus timetable dictates, I like to sit in a comfortable car rather than an uncomfortable bus, I want to be able to take detour somewhere on the way home if I chose, I like being able to go for a spin at lunch etc.

Public policy regarding traffic and transport cannot be decided on the basis of what car drivers like, especially if their personal desires seem to be focused on things such "going for a spin at lunch".

McTigs

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Public policy regarding traffic and transport cannot be decided on the basis of what car drivers like, especially if their personal desires seem to be focused on things such "going for a spin at lunch".

This is the crux of it really. Policy must be based on what is most efficient. They are streets ahead of us in europe in this regard as anyone who has seen it first hand can testify to.

Increasing the bus lanes is a great way to start. People would be far more willing to bus it if they knew they stood a better chance of getting to work faster and on time than sitting in a line of traffic. Success of the number 9 is evidence of this. I know a few car diehards who started using it cos there was just no getting around the fact that made more sense than driving from places like roscam in to town and back at rush hours.

Personally, i bike it around town but cos i've been doing it for so long i'll cycle anywhere and through any roundabout. For new bike commuters the roads should be made more accessable and transport policy should reflect this.

apoeiguq3094y

Regardless of charges, cordons, bike usage, bus services, some of the roundabouts need to be improved, and the most suitable alternative/improvement is traffic lights. I still think that there are some improvement in light timings to be made, but that doesn't mean traffic lights are bad idea.

Was over in Wales 2 weeks ago, and there is alot to be said for the amber before green light. I know it might cause people to jump the gun, but green means proceed if safe, not plough on regardless. The amber light would still require people to look around before charging into the junction.

A summary of what happened in the info session.

A presentation was given about the change to the Lynch (Clayton) roundabout and the changes in general.

It included what had changed at Moneenageisha using before and after images and gave the traffic count including the pedestrian count as given previously on this thread.

The problems of roundabouts where there is a dominant traffic flow was highlighted - in this case cars coming in the Monivea road in the mornings getting priority over cars arriving from the motorway/dual carriageway - leaving very small average queues on the Monivea road but very large ones on the Dublin road.

There will also be a control center linked to all these new lights and to some of the existing ones.

The city has been using licence plate recognition software and can tell that people are using rat runs and going out of their ways to avoid congested junctions.

He listed some of the alternatives and suggestions:
Pedestrian overpasses were more or less dismissed as being too expensive, ugly, taking up too much ground space and that pedestrians and cyclists would continue to use the junction.
Zebra crossings were dismissed as being too dangerous on multi lane fast roads.
A suggestion from a consultant representing some land owners to add left turning lanes will be looked at but it was pointed out they are dangerous for cyclists.

The crowd seemed to be about 60% to 70% in favour of leaving them as is. I think there were about 60 or 70 people there.
Lots of people spoke - many in favour of the status quo saying that it would force traffic other ways or that they just wouldn't work.

Most of the city councillors were there (as far as I could recognise). I left about nine and three councillors that I recognised spoke and were generally in favour saying the council had to consider all road users not just motorists and stuff like that.

The gist I got was that the city has been allocated money to do this and it is going ahead.

Apologies if I got anything wrong or misrepresented anyone.

apoeiguq3094y

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

Was over in Wales 2 weeks ago, and there is alot to be said for the amber before green light. I know it might cause people to jump the gun, but green means proceed if safe, not plough on regardless. The amber light would still require people to look around before charging into the junction.

Having lived in London for a year and driven a lot while there all that happens is that amber is treated as green. Everyone goes the second it goes amber same as when its green here. If your not ready to go on amber you get deafened by the horn of the person behind.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

The crowd seemed to be about 60% to 70% in favour of leaving them as is.

Would disagree with you there. It was more 50/50 by the end of the meeting.
You left the meeting to early. It went on until 22h20

Deleted User wrote: »

I think there were about 60 or 70 people there.

Ya would agree with that estimate.

Deleted User wrote: »

Zebra crossings were dismissed as being too dangerous on multi lane fast roads.

True that was the answer given - But those who raised the issue of "Zebra crossings " where not specifically talking about introducing them to "Lynch" roundabout - but rather seeking their introduction at suitable locations elsewhere in the city. i.e Single lane roundabouts.

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the city councillors were there (as far as I could recognise).

I counted 10 City Cllr's in total + 1 Senator. I did not see any County Cllr's which was interesting considering some of their comments in the local press.

Deleted User wrote: »

The gist I got was that the city has been allocated money to do this and it is going ahead.

Yes would agree with this as well. If money is not spent this year - it will go elsewhere. Have heard this argument many times before at Council meetings.

DanielI

For those who could not make it to the meeting, here is the presentation:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/GTU/030611_01.pdf