Galway roundabouts set for upgrades

Iwannahurl

what_traffic wrote: »

I counted 10 City Cllr's in total + 1 Senator. I did not see any County Cllr's which was interesting considering some of their comments in the local press.

Thanks for report of meeting.

Why were there no officials/elected reps there from the County Council, given their role in the management -- and creation -- of traffic in and around the city? Do they ever talk to each other?

Just had a look at the presentation. Page 5 is scary -- just look at the scale and distribution of all that one-off housing development.

Why is this kind of unsustainable chaos called "Planning"?

Mrs OBumble

Dream Modern Bowler wrote: »

I cant understand why someone would by choice want to use public transport over driving.

Perhaps I can help you out here:

I moved to Galway in 2007, originally got a good (though fixed-term) job in a multi-national, which would have supported running a car. But when I looked for an apartment, I found that if I wanted to live in the central city parking would cost an extra E100/month. I did the sums, and found that the cost of parking + insurance alone would be greater than the cost of renting a car (thru a broker admittedly) every 2nd or 3rd weekend.

Then the recession arrived, just as my fixed term ended. Since then I've had a variety of low paid work, usually in small bits. There is NO WAY I could have afforded to run a car during the last 18 months.

So there's a big reason for you - waste of money.

But there are other reasons too: I never waste time looking for a parking space. I rarely sit in traffic jams (God bless bus lanes!). I don't have to take time off work to organise NCTs or car maintenance. Sure there are some things I cannot do because it's just physically not possible to get from A to B in the timeframe required - but this actually makes life a lot less stressful because I can say "no" instead of "I'll try". Or for those cases where it's really important, there's this wonderful invention called a taxi: I just ring them up, and they appear - I don't have to worry about petrol, insurance, staying sober etc.

Granted, I'm looking forward to the day when I get some decent work again, and can afford those rentals at the weekend - there are some leisure trips that I'm very keen to do.

But for the most part, I'm very happy to choose to take the bus.

/rant :D

Iwannahurl

That's not a rant. It's an eloquent rationale for choosing not to own a car.

And you didn't even mention depreciation as one major cost of car ownership in Ireland, partly as a result of our registration plate system which tends to promote sales of newer cars.

Taking the bus can be a pain in Galway City, as I have found, but using a car can be a bigger hassle.

The bike is pure freedom though.

Robbo

I really can't get these sketches out of my head when I hear about cycling in Galway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s0XsulDXtk

Toon--soldier

Unfortunately I couldn’t make it to the presentation, but could someone who was there tell me how they referenced the two photos of the junction in 2005and 2007 when the roundabout was in place? I would be interested to see aerial photos of the junction with traffic lights…..

kippy

JustMary wrote: »

Perhaps I can help you out here:

I moved to Galway in 2007, originally got a good (though fixed-term) job in a multi-national, which would have supported running a car. But when I looked for an apartment, I found that if I wanted to live in the central city parking would cost an extra E100/month. I did the sums, and found that the cost of parking + insurance alone would be greater than the cost of renting a car (thru a broker admittedly) every 2nd or 3rd weekend.

Then the recession arrived, just as my fixed term ended. Since then I've had a variety of low paid work, usually in small bits. There is NO WAY I could have afforded to run a car during the last 18 months.

So there's a big reason for you - waste of money.

But there are other reasons too: I never waste time looking for a parking space. I rarely sit in traffic jams (God bless bus lanes!). I don't have to take time off work to organise NCTs or car maintenance. Sure there are some things I cannot do because it's just physically not possible to get from A to B in the timeframe required - but this actually makes life a lot less stressful because I can say "no" instead of "I'll try". Or for those cases where it's really important, there's this wonderful invention called a taxi: I just ring them up, and they appear - I don't have to worry about petrol, insurance, staying sober etc.

Granted, I'm looking forward to the day when I get some decent work again, and can afford those rentals at the weekend - there are some leisure trips that I'm very keen to do.

But for the most part, I'm very happy to choose to take the bus.

/rant :D

No doubt, that for certain people in certain situations, living in certain areas, owning a car doesnt make much sense. Each to their own and all that.

I bought a car about 4 years ago (26) as my job required that I travel between sites (four counties) My wife has a car since she was 20 as she has always lived a fair distance from her work (and still does), and has not had much choice in this, These areas aren't easily serviceable by public transport.
We are having our first child in July, our families are both from Mayo.
I dont see how anyone could expect us NOT to have two cars and I can point out numerous reasons why we need these cars.
That doesnt mean there should be more public transport in the city - where possible we use it, as I am sure do most.

This roundabout (clayton) is fairly close to where I live - I didnt make the meeting the last night but to be completely honest its going ahead anyway no matter what. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Iwannahurl

Robbo wrote: »

I really can't get these sketches out of my head when I hear about cycling in Galway...

Discodog

There are loads of traffic lights that could be removed & roundabouts/mini roundabouts installed. The classic case is where traffic turning right stops the flow for example at the top of Taylor's Hill where one driving turning right holds up the traffic for one entire cycle of the lights. Many "rural" lights suffer the same problem for example in Barna.

The big problem with roundabouts, lights & junctions in general is that Galway drivers do not have a clue how to use them. People drive as if Galway is still a sleepy village. How many times to do see three drivers all stationary, looking at each other, trying to work out who should go first.
I spent a lot of time driving & cycling in London. People do not go on Amber (many lights have cameras) but they go immediately when the lights go green & it makes a huge difference. The key to City driving & cycling is that you have to be confident & decisive - not typical qualities for Galway drivers.

Once the computer boffins take control things usually go wrong. Intelligent lights that monitor & vary the flow are good in theory but the reality is often a jam. Lots of guys will of done all the courses & their companies are eager to spend our money

The instant, obvious, cheap, simply was to reduce Galway congestion is an efficient Park & Ride. I believe that Galway councillors visited Oxford. If so they will of seen a superb Park & Ride. There is hardly a shortage of land for car parks. Any big roundabout in a City should have pedestrian underpasses.

The big worry with Galway is that the City is being cut in half. For example Caulfields have to shift loads of goods from Oranmore to Galway because no City customer will spend, what could be an hour going to Oranmore & back. I now buy online rather than crossing the City.

Galway must make allowances for the traders that have to drive because they are supplying good or services. The danger is that you end up charging these people for the privileged, as with congestion charges & that just means that their prices have to go up to compensate.

Iwannahurl

Discodog wrote: »

There are loads of traffic lights that could be removed & roundabouts/mini roundabouts installed. The classic case is where traffic turning right stops the flow for example at the top of Taylor's Hill where one driving turning right holds up the traffic for one entire cycle of the lights.

Why put a roundabout there?

Things are bad enough already for cyclists and pedestrians, even with those clunky traffic lights in place.

Discodog

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why put a roundabout there?

Things are bad enough already for cyclists and pedestrians, even with those clunky traffic lights in place.

Because the traffic would flow more freely & a small roundabout is no harder to negotiate for cyclists. The queue approaching the roundabout can be utilized to provide gaps for pedestrian crossings.

JustMary

JustMary wrote: »

Perhaps I can help you out here:

I moved to Galway in 2007, originally got a good (though fixed-term) job in a multi-national, which would have supported running a car. But when I looked for an apartment, I found that if I wanted to live in the central city parking would cost an extra E100/month. I did the sums, and found that the cost of parking + insurance alone would be greater than the cost of renting a car (thru a broker admittedly) every 2nd or 3rd weekend.

Then the recession arrived, just as my fixed term ended. Since then I've had a variety of low paid work, usually in small bits. There is NO WAY I could have afforded to run a car during the last 18 months.

So there's a big reason for you - waste of money.

But there are other reasons too: I never waste time looking for a parking space. I rarely sit in traffic jams (God bless bus lanes!). I don't have to take time off work to organise NCTs or car maintenance. Sure there are some things I cannot do because it's just physically not possible to get from A to B in the timeframe required - but this actually makes life a lot less stressful because I can say "no" instead of "I'll try". Or for those cases where it's really important, there's this wonderful invention called a taxi: I just ring them up, and they appear - I don't have to worry about petrol, insurance, staying sober etc.

Granted, I'm looking forward to the day when I get some decent work again, and can afford those rentals at the weekend - there are some leisure trips that I'm very keen to do.

But for the most part, I'm very happy to choose to take the bus.

/rant :D

For me a car is much more than a mode of transport, its a hobby too. I have always loved cars and driving, for instance I chose to live at home and commute to university throughout my undergrad as I could not afford both a car and living in town.

My home house is basically in the middle of nowhere and life would be impossible without a car, if you dont drive its means parents etc having to put themselves out to bring you places etc. At the moment I live in Cork city and come home to galway most weekends. I tried getting the city link once to see if it was worth it and its definitely not, It takes much longer, you cant stop if you feel like it, cant set the temp you like, I cant bring loads of stuff like golf clubs, golf trolley, big bag of clothes in comfort and have to arrange a lift out home when you get into Galway. It costs at least 20 euro more in petrol than the bus ticket but its worth every penny.

I also lived in London for a year and even there I couldn't have lived without the car I'm just so used to it.

I walk to work at the moment (as I live close and have no parking) so dont use my car monday to friday so rather than thinking I could do without a car my thinking is that its time to upgrade to a higher performance car as fuel consumption is not a major worry.

Iwannahurl

Discodog wrote: »

Because the traffic would flow more freely & a small roundabout is no harder to negotiate for cyclists. The queue approaching the roundabout can be utilized to provide gaps for pedestrian crossings.

I would agree that the 3-arm mini-roundabout at the bottom of Threadneedle Road is not a significant obstacle for most cyclists. However, I would question whether the larger 4-arm junction at the top of Threadneedle Road would be equally unproblematic.

It is not satisfactory, or fair, to expect pedestrians to wait for gaps in traffic in order to cross at such uncontrolled junctions. "Informal" pedestrian crossings of this kind on busy roundabouts designed to maximise the flow of motorised traffic are ineffective and intimidating, especially for vulnerable road such as children, disabled people and senior citizens.

Head The Wall

JustMary wrote: »

Perhaps I can help you out here:

I moved to Galway in 2007, originally got a good (though fixed-term) job in a multi-national, which would have supported running a car. But when I looked for an apartment, I found that if I wanted to live in the central city parking would cost an extra E100/month. I did the sums, and found that the cost of parking + insurance alone would be greater than the cost of renting a car (thru a broker admittedly) every 2nd or 3rd weekend.

Then the recession arrived, just as my fixed term ended. Since then I've had a variety of low paid work, usually in small bits. There is NO WAY I could have afforded to run a car during the last 18 months.

So there's a big reason for you - waste of money.

But there are other reasons too: I never waste time looking for a parking space. I rarely sit in traffic jams (God bless bus lanes!). I don't have to take time off work to organise NCTs or car maintenance. Sure there are some things I cannot do because it's just physically not possible to get from A to B in the timeframe required - but this actually makes life a lot less stressful because I can say "no" instead of "I'll try". Or for those cases where it's really important, there's this wonderful invention called a taxi: I just ring them up, and they appear - I don't have to worry about petrol, insurance, staying sober etc.

Granted, I'm looking forward to the day when I get some decent work again, and can afford those rentals at the weekend - there are some leisure trips that I'm very keen to do.

But for the most part, I'm very happy to choose to take the bus.

/rant :D

No car may be ok if your hobbies/pastimes consist of knitting, chess, bridge etc. I do a lot of running, mtbing, kayaking etc and you wouldn't get far without transport.

The same can be said for visiting parents, funerals, emergencies and so many other things that happen outside the town/city each person lives in. Spontaneity will never happen if you have to get a bus or rent a car.

Not having a dig at you I'm just pointing out that what you can do without a car is extremely restrictive, unless of course you have never had a car because you won't realise what you are missing.

BTW I'm a car owner but cycle 13 miles to work and 13 back 3 days a week

Discodog

Iwannahurl wrote: »

However, I would question whether the larger 4-arm junction at the top of Threadneedle Road would be equally unproblematic.

especially for vulnerable road such as children, disabled people and senior citizens.

If one cannot follow the rules of the road & negotiate a 4 way roundabout then I would question whether one should be on such a road. Motorists have to prove their competency so why not cyclists ?.

If you spent a day at the top of Threadneedle Road you would see children at school start/finish times. You might see a couple of senior citizens & perhaps one disabled person per week. All of the above can be accommodated by Pelican crossings linked to the traffic flow.

It is an absurd idea that you penalise hundreds of motorists every day, cause delays, damage business etc for the sake of making a few people wait a minute to cross the road.

Mrs OBumble

Head The Wall wrote: »

... unless of course you have never had a car because you won't realise what you are missing.
...
BTW I'm a car owner but cycle 13 miles to work and 13 back 3 days a week

I owned a car for close to 20 years,and (economic recovery willing) will do so again. I don't have a problem with ownership as such, but I do with using it for regular commuting when it's not necessary.

I'd ideally never take a job that means I have to commute to work by car. Stressfull, polluting, and a waste of fossil fuels. Might compromise for a short term job, but if it was a longer term thing I'd move, or get a better-located job.

Get Cracking

those roundabouts are already a disaster,FLYOVERS the only answer!

snubbleste

Get Cracking wrote: »

those roundabouts are already a disaster,FLYOVERS the only answer!

Ban private cars is another only answer!

cranky bollix

just been on a holiday down the south east (waterford area), the contrast between the roads down there and galway is staggering.

WTF have the galway councils been at,

it seems like we're about 10 years behind. from the moment you get on the new bypass at gort, all the way down to waterford (even the small country areas), the roads are excellent, very little traffic, cycle lanes etc.

they need to get the finger out or we'll be losing out on foreign investment companies in future

kippy

cranky bollix wrote: »

just been on a holiday down the south east (waterford area), the contrast between the roads down there and galway is staggering.

WTF have the galway councils been at,

it seems like we're about 10 years behind. from the moment you get on the new bypass at gort, all the way down to waterford (even the small country areas), the roads are excellent, very little traffic, cycle lanes etc.

they need to get the finger out or we'll be losing out on foreign investment companies in future

We've too many "environmentalists" in this county. There have been plans for outter ring roads and bypasses for years, and indeed more public transport however they've been held up because of issues with flowers and frogs I believe.

Discodog

There are ways to work around flowers & frogs !. I was involved in some ecology work in the UK & it was relatively easy to put in tunnels for wildlife. The frog population increased because of the rainwater run off ponds.

Iwannahurl

Discodog wrote: »

If one cannot follow the rules of the road & negotiate a 4 way roundabout then I would question whether one should be on such a road. Motorists have to prove their competency so why not cyclists ?.

If you spent a day at the top of Threadneedle Road you would see children at school start/finish times. You might see a couple of senior citizens & perhaps one disabled person per week. All of the above can be accommodated by Pelican crossings linked to the traffic flow.

It is an absurd idea that you penalise hundreds of motorists every day, cause delays, damage business etc for the sake of making a few people wait a minute to cross the road.

What part of the Rules of the Road makes roundabouts safer for cyclists?

What's the difference between a Pelican crossing for pedestrians and the controlled crossing that's there now?

There is a lot to be said for cycle training and competency testing. This is the norm in other European countries such as Denmark and the Netherlands, where children are trained and tested in road skills from an early age. Mind you, such countries have much better legal protection for cyclists (eg motorists automatically liable in a collision) and in my experience they use very few roundabouts, preferring instead junction designs that prioritise the safety and convenience of vulnerable road users.

You wouldn't think there was any competence testing for motorists in this country, given the renegade driving behaviour seen on the roads (and footpaths, as per photos below) every day. It's also worth remembering that it is motorised vehicles that kill and maim people, not bicycles, prams and wheelchairs.

Incidentally, AFAIK, car ownership rates are higher in many European countries, while active commuting is much more common. Cities such as Copenhagen, and entire populous countries such as the Netherlands, have promoted cycling for decades. Here the car lobby flies into an immediate hissy fit when even moderate and evidence-based safety measures, such as 30 kph speed limit zones, are proposed.

Such measures are seen as "penalising" motorists, and an attack on their "entitlements".

The only "absurd" thing regarding urban environments that promote walking, cycling and mobility/access for children, disabled people and senior citizens is that Ireland is so far behind much of the rest of Europe. No wonder we have growing levels of obesity and one of the lowest active commuting rates in the EU. Successive government policies that promoted car dependence instead is one reason for this sorry state of affairs, and the selfishness and intransigence of the car lobby is definitely another.




^---Kingston, near the traffic signals.



^---Taylor's Hill, ditto.

skelliser

traffic today was an absolute nightmare!!

they really need to sort out ravens terrace, ban right turns.
they also need to change the timings on the pedestrian crossings at the arch and at the docks.
There should be at least 1 minute between pressing the button again.

Also have ye looked at those videos for the proposed junction in briarhill!!
the cars in it have faster acceleration then F1 cars ffs!!

forget these junctions and just build the ****ing bypass already!!

business in Galway is suffering because of the traffic mess and its only going to get worse!

Iwannahurl

skelliser wrote: »

traffic today was an absolute nightmare!!

they really need to sort out ravens terrace, ban right turns.
they also need to change the timings on the pedestrian crossings at the arch and at the docks.
There should be at least 1 minute between pressing the button again.

Also have ye looked at those videos for the proposed junction in briarhill!!
the cars in it have faster acceleration then F1 cars ffs!!

forget these junctions and just build the ****ing bypass already!!

business in Galway is suffering because of the traffic mess and its only going to get worse!

Let me see if I have this right.

Business in Galway is suffering because of traffic congestion, so let's do a bit more to hold up pedestrians in one of the city's most prominent car-free commercial/tourist areas, ie Quay Street and Spanish Parade?

celtictiger

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What part of the Rules of the Road makes roundabouts safer for cyclists?

The advice itself makes it safer

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The only "absurd" thing regarding urban environments that promote walking, cycling and mobility/access for children, disabled people and senior citizens is that Ireland is so far behind much of the rest of Europe. No wonder we have growing levels of obesity and one of the lowest active commuting rates in the EU. Successive government policies that promoted car dependence instead is one reason for this sorry state of affairs, and the selfishness and intransigence of the car lobby is definitely another.

We have growing levels of obesity due to poor eating habits constantly shoveling garbage down our throats

McTigs

Iwannahurl wrote: »

^

Tell me you reported that idiot.

The fact is we need to modernise as a society. We need to be more efficient in the way we carry on our daily activities, work commutes etc. Across Europe in town bigger, smaller and the same size as galway they have promoted and directed policy towards alternatives to single occupancy car usage and it has worked.

A bypass, while it might help a bit, won't be the silver bullet people think it will. Less cars is the only thing that will ease congestion in the end. Inherent selfishness means people won't get out of their cars for any other reason than there being a more atractive option. Increasing the bus lanes, providing park and ride facilities at key locations, increasing bus services will make it faster to get to work by bus than by car and the uptake will happen. Bike usage will increse as he roads are less crazy. It's really that simple. Co-operation needs tocome from the private sector too, accomodating staff to start/finish a bit early/late where possible to allow for timetables, providing bike parking etc. Everyone doing their own thing will never work no matter how many bypasses you build.

We need to get out of the shagging dark ages. There is far too much evidence of traffic management success abroad to draw from to carry on the way we are going.

snubbleste

That happens every day at that junction for the last decade or so.. I mean motorists willfully mounting the designated pedestrian footpath, not buggies being photographed in the rising sun :pac:

I think I said this before, but roundabouts were put in place solely to facilitate the motorist, it is also the cheapest form of junction to provide with little maintenance required (as opposed to lights).

ciotog

celtictiger wrote: »

The advice itself makes it safer

The advice assumes that everyone using the roundabout uses it correctly and that all roundabouts are idealised down to single lane entry/exit. Contrast that with the situation in Galway:
- A significant number of vehicular road users don't signal entering or exiting a roundabout
- A significant number of vehicular road users don't signal while on the roundabout
- A significant number of vehicular road users don't maintain appropriate lane selection while on the roundabout or exiting.
- Traffic volumes on Galway roundabouts are considerably higher.
- Many Galway roundabouts have dual carriageways on entry and/or exit.

The advice may make it safer conceptually but reality makes it dangerous.

Iwannahurl

ciotog wrote: »

The advice assumes that everyone using the roundabout uses it correctly and that all roundabouts are idealised down to single lane entry/exit. Contrast that with the situation in Galway:
- A significant number of vehicular road users don't signal entering or exiting a roundabout
- A significant number of vehicular road users don't signal while on the roundabout
- A significant number of vehicular road users don't maintain appropriate lane selection while on the roundabout or exiting.
- Traffic volumes on Galway roundabouts are considerably higher.
- Many Galway roundabouts have dual carriageways on entry and/or exit.

The advice may make it safer conceptually but reality makes it dangerous.

Those are fair points re illegal and dangerous behaviour on roundabouts.

It is also the case that roundabouts of the design typically found in Ireland are much riskier for cyclists than for motorists.

Combine the two -- cycle-hostile design and dangerous behaviour -- and it's no wonder cyclists hate roundabouts and avoid them like the plague.

Iwannahurl

celtictiger wrote: »

We have growing levels of obesity due to poor eating habits constantly shoveling garbage down our throats

There is something in what you say. However, it is a scientific fact that obesity, as well as a range of diseases, is also directly linked to low levels of physical activity.

Significantly, there is a strong correlation, at a population level, between time spent driving and Body Mass Index: the more people drive the higher the risk of obesity. Here's a 2004 study which found that each additional hour spent in a car per day was associated with a 6% increase in the likelihood of obesity. Conversely, each additional kilometre walked per day was associated with a 4.8% reduction in the likelihood of obesity.

Excess time spent in the car is also linked to transport and land use policy. Therefore any measures that promote active travel -- and I would include removing dangerous roundabouts in that category -- will pay a public health dividend in time. The same cannot be said of promoting and facilitating car use while placing obstacles in the way of active commuting -- quite the opposite in fact.

Webbs

JustMary wrote: »

I'd ideally never take a job that means I have to commute to work by car. Stressfull, polluting, and a waste of fossil fuels. Might compromise for a short term job, but if it was a longer term thing I'd move, or get a better-located job.

Whilst I do agree that commuting by car is polluting, wasteful etc though I dont find it stressful, 10 years of london commuting makes Galway a breeze.

I disagree with you about moving home to be near your job as I live by 'work to live not live to work' so therefore want to live somewhere I enjoy and get a good life which wouldn't be anywhere near where I work. Its a difficult balance to make and I suppose its each to their own