Attn All Irish MMA clubs - Blood Tests

IFS.NI

Hi Guys

Who would be interested in bringing in yearly blood tests for HIV and Hep if the cost was right for Irish fighters/ clubs?

Blood bourne diseases are a serious issue and there are services available now handily enough for testing.

What are your opinions?

Gorey_R

I'd be much much more supportive of this than poxy drug tests.

dasmoose

What richie said, will you be testing for PEDs? I'd have to ask wacky but I'm pretty sure the chances of anyone in Irish mma having HIV or hepatitis are very small.

Stephen_King

I'd think a yearly test for PED's would be a waste of time (unless the tests were random) given that they can be flushed from the system and\or cycled to avoid testing time. In order to catch people you'd have to test regularly and I'd think they'd be a bit pricey to foist on the average fighter over here. Might be an idea for title fights though, providing the promotion covers the cost.

I'd say the chances of anyone having the bug on the Irish scene would be pretty low but yea, if the tests were cheap there's no harm doing them.

Barry.Oglesby

The future is this:

A "book" or database that the fighter maintains himself and is responsible for himself. Every fight he gets checked and signed off by the fight doc before and after (particularly in the case of a KO or TKO) and once every year he gets a full physical including blood tests from his GP. This way

This is the future of MMA in Ireland, but it's the present for most other ring sports. I support any mechanism that heightens the safety of fighters.

IFS.NI

PED testing IMO is also important for fair play but way down the list compared to HIV and Hep testing. A few above have metioned the chances of people having an infection are slim, this may be true compared to London for example BUT don't kid yourselves guys there are plenty of folk positive in our own country - it's actually frightening the number.

Hate to sound all doom and gloom but God forbid we have to wait to hear someone has contracted an infection before something is done about it.

I recon for the Equilivent price of one night on the piss would cover a fighters test, yes they could get infected after a test but it is minimising chance and is reasonably practical.

This has nothing to do with my show by the way or people asking IF I will be testing for things - no, it's a question to the irish MMA community together and me speaking as a coach with fighters.

I have a contact in the Uk who has a lab where they send you a kit, you go to your doctor or nurse to get a blood sample and send it off, it's tested and you get your certiciate back within a week or so.

Then before fights people can provide the certificate before they are allowed to fight or matched.

Irish fighters are developing and are fighting all over Europe and beyond - not only that possibley getting drink and having unprotected sex in there local clubs week in week out.

I just think it's something for clubs to think about as it's a very real risk!

IFS.NI

Sorry I misread - yes chances of people on the Irish Mma scene having HIV may be slim but that's not to say something may never happen.

I just meant the number of Blood bourne infections are on the increase and with a sport were blood is the normal it should be addressed sooner rather than later.

Stephen_King

Just checked around there-the cost of a blood test in Dublin is around €30, but not sure if there's a GP charge on top of that. If there is it would work out around €80 or so.

Sid_Justice

There are more people juicing in Irish MMA then people who are HIV positive. If this was the pron industry I could see why someone would be championing a STI test before PED test.

Presumably you want people to get tested for HIV,Hepatitis B and C. If they want to fight on your promotion they must present a certificate saying the tested negative in the last 12 months. If they don't present with a negative cert (e.g. didn't get tested, or tested positive) they won't fight on your show?

1. There is no recorded incidence of a person becoming infected with HIV from a boxing or MMA fight.
2. The one recorded incidence of Hepatitis B transmission was due to someone reusing a bloody handkerchief.

ref: http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CDoQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ringsidephysicians.org%2Fresources%2FSR06-5-2-01.pdf&rct=j&q=hepatitis%20%20and%20boxing%20amateur&ei=0nekTd-6A4G2hAfL-9zLCQ&usg=AFQjCNHFWX_i4UHH-CBsTF1pxsazKjbzWA&sig2=nOVgcgBpjZIMBmYNk7dkqA&cad=rja

3. The Irish Amateur Boxing association do not test boxers for HIV/HBV.


Obviously Pro MMA =/ Amateur boxing.

I will accept that the bloodiest ground and pound does present a scenario where HBV transmission is possible.

Raze_them_all

I can honeslty say I got tested after every fight I had, always had my cert with me (which out of everyone only Mark Leonard looked to see ) It's only every cost me 20e to get the test done everytime.

I honestly can't see why people would want drug tests over it. I would rather get hammered by a juice head than beat someone with a contagious life long disease no matter how small the risk is.

IFS.NI

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I honestly can't see why people would want drug tests over it. I would rather get hammered by a juice head than beat someone with a contagious life long disease no matter how small the risk is.

Exactly.

Drugs testing is a seperate issue altogether but its way down the line to being feasable - Blood infections are alot more serious.

Getting yours done for 20 euro was very good - was that from your own doctor buddy as prices seem to be different for each person.

Raze_them_all

IFS.NI wrote: »

Exactly.

Drugs testing is a seperate issue altogether but its way down the line to being feasable - Blood infections are alot more serious.

Getting yours done for 20 euro was very good - was that from your own doctor buddy as prices seem to be different for each person.

Yup own doctor, Took the bloods and sent them off. Got the results back within two weeks. It probably helps that I don't live in a bigger city *like the majority of posters here.


* like it or not kilkenny is a city

IFS.NI

I think the test is about £30-£40 so its up to the doctor if they charge you for the blood sample although a nurse could do it no probs and not charge

IFS.NI

£30 or £40 per year for another string for fighter safety, well worth it in my opinion.

£30-£40 wouldnt even look at one nights drinking!!

medicsie

I would be in favour of this being brought in, the cost isn't that much as stated above.

However, along with the above conditions mentioned, there are also certain conditions that would be important for us to know about e.g Haemophilia.

It would need to be outlined to the physician what conditions need to be tested for, therefore it would be important for all organizers to agree on what conditions would be too dangerous to be allowed.

IFS.NI

medicsie wrote: »

I would be in favour of this being brought in, the cost isn't that much as stated above.

.

I have heard costs from 20 euro to £200! We did our pros and was alot more expensive but that was with a doctor who came down to the club.

Obviously the lower prices the better, do you have any links to companies who offer cheap tests or how fighters could go about getting it from their doctors for minimal costs or even free?

medicsie

I have heard costs from 20 euro to £200! We did our pros and was alot more expensive but that was with a doctor who came down to the club.

Obviously the lower prices the better, do you have any links to companies who offer cheap tests or how fighters could go about getting it from their doctors for minimal costs or even free?

I would not be in favour of contracting companies in to do it ''on the cheap'' though I understand where you are coming from in saying that.

The best bet is to have it done by the HSE, where all fighters would go through a HSE Doctor and have it done that way. For fighters who are availing of the medical card system I believe it would be a small charge or even free.

Not sure how it works for you folks up north but I would imagine the NHS GPs would have a similar system whereby they take your blood and send it off to the hospital lab.

IFS.NI

Occupational health consultants I meant as costs varied.

Barry.Oglesby

Hi all,

Whenever one of the lads asks me what he needs if he wants to fight I say "VHI". Not that you'll really need it, but more that you'd be wise to prepare for the worst. With respect to blood borne diseases such as HIV and Hep, there's obviously no amount of insurance that would cover that so I think that any precaution would be great.

WRT Sid justice's comparison with PEDs, I think something needs to be done about the rumour mill in that regard. I don't care who is using PEDs in Irish MMA and I don't think we need testing for them and here's the reasons why:
1) How many people who are actively fighting are using PEDs? I would say the answer is no greater than 20 and no less than 10.
2) How many people have either the expertise or access to the requisite expertise to use PEDs that would actually be genuinely beneficial to fighting in MMA in Ireland? I would say less than 10
3) How many people have both the technical ability, the physical condition and experience to really make PEDs count in their favour in a tight match? I would say less than 5

The role of PEDs in amateur sport is overstated. I must state my stance on the matter before saying this, I am against PEDs. There. However in my line of work, knowledge of PEDs is valuable even as a warning, and I guess I'm getting good at spotting people on certain pharmaceutical "products". What I will say from what I know is that the guys I see who are using PEDs are not anything a fighter with a reasonable gas tank and some technical know how needs to worry about. I also don't think that they impact on fighter safety, which is a greater concern to me than if some moron thinks what he injects in his arse is more important than learning how to box properly.

So yay to fighter safety and regular doctor checks and high medical and safety standards. Boo to deekheads taking dianabol and thinking it's the key to success.

Barry.Oglesby

Sorry I should add something:

I think blood tests are great, but I genuinely think that for any active fighter (~5/6 fights per year) then a once yearly MRI on their brain would be a far better safety precaution to fund if I wanted money to go to something. I think there's a far greater risk of trauma to the cerebellum than any blood borne disease.

Stephen_King

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Sorry I should add something:

I think blood tests are great, but I genuinely think that for any active fighter (~5/6 fights per year) then a once yearly MRI on their brain would be a far better safety precaution to fund if I wanted money to go to something. I think there's a far greater risk of trauma to the cerebellum than any blood borne disease.

Good point. Certainly hasnt done Brian Foster any harm-

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Brian-Foster-Out-of-UFC-129-with-Brain-Hemorrhage-31562

cowzerp

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Sorry I should add something:

I think blood tests are great, but I genuinely think that for any active fighter (~5/6 fights per year) then a once yearly MRI on their brain would be a far better safety precaution to fund if I wanted money to go to something. I think there's a far greater risk of trauma to the cerebellum than any blood borne disease.

MRI scans are expensive, can't see people availing of that to be honest, also with all tests are we talking all levels or just pros?

Barry.Oglesby

cowzerp wrote: »

MRI scans are expensive, can't see people availing of that to be honest, also with all tests are we talking all levels or just pros?

I was just spitballing. My point is that it would be top of my list above blood testing. I think a general once yearly physical exam would be a good step in the right direction.

Martin Walker

I know its been done to death over the last few years guys but im gonna say it again. You should set up a body of somesorts for MMA. You have all the best intentions and some very experienced people in all facets of the sport. It can be done. I do know that no matter what a GB says they have no power to stop promotions but in a way thats not what you need to do. I have a few ideas i belive could work to get things going in the right direction. Its not about stopping new promotions but more about guiding them in the right direction. The direction everyone wants to go in.

Marty

Sid_Justice

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

1) How many people who are actively fighting are using PEDs? I would say the answer is no greater than 20 and no less than 10.

How many people are actively fighting with active, contagious, serious business blood-borne viruses? I don't know, i would say the answer is no greater than 0.

Barry.Oglesby

Sid_Justice wrote: »

How many people are actively fighting with active, contagious, serious business blood-borne viruses? I don't know, i would say the answer is no greater than 0.

But blood borne diseases are potentially fatal. PEDs are just cheating. I don't think the comparison is valid. One is a fighter safety issue and the other is enforcement of rules.

Raze_them_all

Sid_Justice wrote: »

How many people are actively fighting with active, contagious, serious business blood-borne viruses? I don't know, i would say the answer is no greater than 0.

how many people have undiagnosed conditions till they get a blood test and get a nasty surprise? Didn't Alekander Emeilenko have a suspected case of hep b and had a fight pulled before?

It only takes one fighter to effectively ruin someones career and spread it, lads like Cathal and Norman have a real shot of getting into the ufc if they come back to ireland do you really think they'd care more if they fought someone who was on peds over someone who could give them a disease for life?
I doubt any fighter at any level would.

cowzerp

I cant stand drug cheats but it's not of major concern in Ireland and if it was feasible to pick 1 or the other i would side with the blood tests-i doubt there is 0 people carrying diseases in the sport, all it takes is riding 1 skank or 1 class girl who rode a skank etc... and there ya go.

in saying that the transmitting the disease would be very low chances even if a fighter had 1.

It's worth talking about and maybe we can work something out thats realistic and can learn from the discussion.

ps, say no to skanks!

Raze_them_all

cowzerp wrote: »

I cant stand drug cheats but it's not of major concern in Ireland and if it was feasible to pick 1 or the other i would side with the blood tests-i doubt there is 0 people carrying diseases in the sport, all it takes is riding 1 skank or 1 class girl who rode a skank etc... and there ya go.

in saying that the transmitting the disease would be very low chances even if a fighter had 1.

It's worth talking about and maybe we can work something out thats realistic and can learn from the discussion.

ps, say no to skanks!

Essentail kit for anybody especially fighters!

Very good point raised by paul though, just like a skank ya never know where your opponent has been (excluding all ye married folk of course)

Sid_Justice

cowzerp wrote: »

ps, say no to skanks!

I would suggest the lads with loads of tattoos are just as likely to have infections as promiscuous lads.

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I would suggest the lads with loads of tattoos are just as likely to have infections as promiscuous lads.

Don't agree but either way, Its impossible to do MMA without a tatoo so more reason for blood tests over drug ones..

Mouthalmighty

Skanks are bad

But I agree with what everyone has said with ref to blood bourne infections. If i'm not mistaken to play league of ireland football a clean bill of health is required. (I could be wrong with that just what I was told by a player). So if those wendy boys have to get it done fighters should really get it done. Kinda like an NCT at least once a year.

Raze_them_all

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I would suggest the lads with loads of tattoos are just as likely to have infections as promiscuous lads.

Higher chance if the tattoo parlour isn't fully sterelized and safe actually so yes.

Moloko17

I think I remember reading something like you had to have a blood test to fight in ISKA pro rules(Elbows). Is this right?

medicsie

IFS.NI wrote: »

Occupational health consultants I meant as costs varied.

Not sure on the costs of the Occys, but I do have approx prices for the blood tests done by GPs as have had several done.

To get back to the original point, would the major promoters who post here consider setting a clear blood test and proof of same as being a pre-requisite to fighting on a show?.

Clive

medicsie wrote: »

To get back to the original point, would the major promoters who post here consider setting a clear blood test and proof of same as being a pre-requisite to fighting on a show?.

And if so will they be paying for them/increasing purses accordingly?

pablohoney87

I think a fair few of the shows require a blood test for A class rules. Remember something about Rimas and Henry needing one for battlezone.

Sid_Justice

Just wondering how many of the guys asking for Hepatitis and HIV tests due to the health and safety risks of blood-borne infections wash their mats every day to kill the Staphylococcus aureus and similar ?

karl bracken

I dont think tattoo's are that much of a risk these days.
Tattooing has came along way in the last 5 - 10 years, people are more educated on them and useless or dirty tattooists get a bad name very quick with the net as well as word of mouth.
Needles are really cheap too so the whole use the same needle on different people is long gone...

If it was 30 quid a year to get a test and the main shows enforced it, it would be another plus for the sport.
Everyone fears a major injury getting into the media HIV would bad and probably scare a lot of beginners.

You might as well throw in the STD check while your at it, you didnt get that itch rolling round the mats lol

Mouthalmighty

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Just wondering how many of the guys asking for Hepatitis and HIV tests due to the health and safety risks of blood-borne infections wash their mats every day to kill the Staphylococcus aureus and similar ?

Fair point Sid but general personal hygiene for a fighter will radially reduce the risk of the above. Regular hot showers after rolling & use an antibacterial soap & you're grand. I use it all the time germs are everywhere.:eek::D

ollieo

I brought this subject up before

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67886656

and didn't get much of a response so I'm glad that the subject has come up again and that coaches seem to be having some input.

This is a serious H&S issue for MMA fighters and should be dealt with properly, as stated earlier blood borne diseases are potentially fatal and are life altering.

IFS.NI

From the responses on here it seems the majority are in favor although not all clubs post on boards.ie also a few havent said what they think?

IMO from the research I have done speaking to doctors and fighters generally the tests can be recieved free of charge from a friendly GP - other Gps may ask for a payment which can cost circa £50.(this is an average)

They can also be got free of charge from any GUM clinic.

Failing the above two options worst case senario your GP is not going to play ball and ask for £50 which is not much considering that is for a 1 year test certificate to help increase fighter safety - some guys would spend that for a night on the booze or a new Tapout hoody!!

Scanned copy could be emailed to promoters when match making?

This imo should be at all levels that include head shots and knees to head?

The new rules are working well as the guys who dont want to do the new gnp simply are doing 'd' class rules which is the basically the same as old c class (semi-pro) only using bigger gloves - getting the blood tests sorted would be another big feather in the irish MMA cap showing the uk and europe we are serious about fighter safety and setting a good standard and example for the sport?

This is just something I feel can easily be achievable and would be a good thing for Irish MMA?

IFS.NI

Also as mentioned earlier it should be up to the fighters to make sure that their certificates are up to date.

A test from the doctor will get your results back in around 10 days, there is also a kit you can get from a testing lab that costs £35, you go to the nurse who takes your blood sample, you then send it to the lab which has your results in 3-5 days!

Kal_El

This is a good idea for safety but i have a couple of questions.
Will fighters purses now go up because you are basically telling them they are in alot of danger.
And will this effect fighters personal insurance?

Barry.Oglesby

That's actually a really good question. I know that if you have been shown to have a HIV test it becomes difficult to get life assurance for mortgages etc.

Hmmmm.

IFS.NI

I really don't think this is a question of purses etc as genrallybthese tests can be got for free or cheap. £50 a year worst case senario breaks down to £10 a fight if someone fights 5 times a year.

I haven't got all the answers but it's a start, hopefully most can get the tests done free from gp, gum clinic or £30 test kit.

These costs are minimal for what it would achieve

As for life insurance information could be gathered from the insurance companies to see what they say. Saying that boxers have been doing it for years and perhaps they is an allowance for sports testing?

Failing that the test kit option at £30 is confidential and not through your doctor.

I have contacted other coaches who do not use boards.ie and have conformation back from Rodney Moore so far,he is also in favor as he states the euro shows have been asking for tests for years and it's the way forward.

IFS.NI

Sorry I misread your first question.

Every fighter should be fully aware of every risk of entering an MMA event that should be outlined in the promoters risk assesment, even if a promoter does not have a risk assesment done fighters should not enter without knowing all risks no matter how serious.

Tests will increase their safety more so than now fighting now with no control measures

Clive

IFS.NI wrote: »

I really don't think this is a question of purses etc as genrallybthese tests can be got for free or cheap. £50 a year worst case senario breaks down to £10 a fight if someone fights 5 times a year.

It's very well to say that it's not a matter of purses and that tests are cheap, but the reality of the situation is that if you go to a doctor and ask for blood tests it's going to be a hundred quid between consultation and test costs. That's a hundred quid a year to get a cert to tell you you what anyone who donates blood knows already.

I'm all for safety but most young fighters don't have that money to throw around, since it's more than most of their purses. European shows do ask for tests but they also pay more.

If the cost is so little, then I'm sure promoters would be happy to pay for blood tests for any fighter who doesn't have an up to date cert - this would start a rolling system so that they'd only be paying for a few per show.

Kal_El

Im not saying the fighters need paid more because of the costs im saying they should be paid more because of the risks. If your gonna get more professional for the good of the promotion you need to get more professional for the good of the fighters. They need paid more. And when should they get these tests? Once a year? Whats the point in that if they fight 4 or more times. surley then they should get a new cert after every fight.

And also it is right when you look at insurance and life insurances they do need to know about HIV tests. If you tell them your having one or more every year im pretty sure they will put premiums up. Insurance companys dont care about MMA and the fact that you love the sport and compete. They see the profit.

Safety = Good for the sport.
Its the knock on effects you need to think about.

John Ferguson

Moloko17 wrote: »

I think I remember reading something like you had to have a blood test to fight in ISKA pro rules(Elbows). Is this right?

Is this the case Paul? I remember when Chris Clarke came over to fight Paul Moore he mentioned something about the fight would be with no elbows because he didn't have some sort of cert. Not that it mattered in the end due to him pulling out with 45 mins to go :rolleyes:

Raze_them_all

Kal_El wrote: »

And also it is right when you look at insurance and life insurances they do need to know about HIV tests. If you tell them your having one or more every year im pretty sure they will put premiums up. Insurance companys dont care about MMA and the fact that you love the sport and compete. They see the profit.

Safety = Good for the sport.
Its the knock on effects you need to think about.

As for the insurance companies, afaik alot of people get tests done by other doctors and not they're usual doc so it doesn't show up on medical history that they're getting tested, it does raise your premiums as the insurance company reckons you live a risky lifestyle which is a joke as you're being responsible for your health by getting tested.

I agree it should be a minimum of 3-4 a year. IIRC, HIV can take up to 6 months to be caught in a test, so getting tested once a year is hardly going to catch everything in a worse case scenario.