Is Limerick Dying?

JupiterKid

What's also pretty sad is that Limerick saw a lot of urban renewal in the 90s and 2000s - kicked off by the opening of the Arthurs Quay Centre - but it doesn't seem to have done the city much good.:(

ZombieBride

bigpink wrote: »

Cruises was all Uk chains stores at one time,maybe some independent stores on the street would help
I go to Ennis and KIlkenny and the vibe of small town shops tourists seem to love

And we get back to the beginning of the circle. The rates are too high and parking is less convenient than outside the city.

kilburn

To be fair i think Cruises street was a terrible idea, the shops are too small and what is the point in another shopping street when the other ones cant get occupancy. They should never have knocked Cruises hotel, but they did and thats that.

Maybe if someone bought 2 or 3 of the shops and knocked them into bigger units, it would help to get bigger stores in.

seachto7

what was behind cruises hotel before it was knocked. Did it go up as far as the end of cruises street?

ZombieBride

seachto7 wrote: »

what was behind cruises hotel before it was knocked. Did it go up as far as the end of cruises street?

It went back half way up what is cruises street now. 1907 Map of Cruises Street area

ablelocks

To me, everything rotates around the fact that there has been no large-scale industrial investment in Limerick / Mid-West region since Dell expanded in the late 1990's / early 2000's.

80 per cent of jobs created by new foreign firms in the last decade ... located in Dublin, Cork and Galway

...these cities [Waterford & Limerick] represented 8.8 per cent of all foreign employment in 2001, but attracted only 2.8 per cent of employment in new foreign firms while losing 40.5 per cent of their existing foreign employment.

Without that investment, there has been no circulation of jobs - people who have jobs stay put, making it harder for others to gain entry. They don't get a chance to be promoted or get new jobs. So people leave to other areas of the country or more likely now, abroad. Those that remain cannot sustain a "city" and it's businesses - there is less money being spent locally, whatever "authority" is in charge collects less revenue to spend on maintaining the city and it's a vicious circle.

Of course cork and galway are doing better, look at all the job announcements there, even (or perhaps especially) over the last year or 2.

Limerick, and the mid-west, despite having a number of ministers and junior ministers, has been underfunded and ignored by what, 3 successive governments. Government, local authorities, IDA, enterprise ireland, shannon development need to get at least 3-5 large scale enterprises into the mid-west and get people moving again. Sooner rather than later.

zulutango

I think Limerick is a great little city. If you care to look, there's actually quite a lot going on. Of course, there could be more, but it's not half as bad as it's made out to be. I live in the city centre so I might be a bit more aware of what's going on than most.

So, Cruise's Street with it's chain stores is pretty much closing down. So what? It never did much for the city anyway. Catherine Street and Thomas Street which have mostly local shops are showing positive signs.

I genuinely believe that Limerick City is on the up. If we want this to continue, the key thing is that the city centre becomes a place where people live. This should be the focus far more than retail. Once people are living in the city centre again in large numbers (and it's starting to happen), then it'll start to look and feel like a more vibrant city.

Check out this website which hosts a forum about the revival of the area around Patrick Street and Ellen Street - http://www.patrickstreet.com

Kess73

zulutango wrote: »

I think Limerick is a great little city. If you care to look, there's actually quite a lot going on. Of course, there could be more, but it's not half as bad as it's made out to be. I live in the city centre so I might be a bit more aware of what's going on than most.

So, Cruise's Street with it's chain stores is pretty much closing down. So what? It never did much for the city anyway. Catherine Street and Thomas Street which have mostly local shops are showing positive signs.

I genuinely believe that Limerick City is on the up. If we want this to continue, the key thing is that the city centre becomes a place where people live. This should be the focus far more than retail. Once people are living in the city centre again in large numbers (and it's starting to happen), then it'll start to look and feel like a more vibrant city.

Check out this website which hosts a forum about the revival of the area around Patrick Street and Ellen Street - http://www.patrickstreet.com

Not quite sure how it is on the up. Has the highest % of all the Irish cities in terms of unemployment although Waterford comes close. Has the highest % of unused % retail/commercial units of any of the Irish cities. Came last of the Irish cities and Towns with a population over 20,000 in terms of footfall on main streets.

The city centre has been on a downward spiral for quite some time now and the pity is that the rate of decline is a steady one.

Limerick city does have a hell of a lot of potential though, and one would hope to see it realised at some point. What is scary though is for anyone over 35 to think back to what the city centre was like in the 90's and 80's (despite there being a recession inh the 80's) in terms of shops (both in terms of the volume of stores and the amount of name brands in the city), commercial services, entertainment options like cinemas (plural), bowling alley, arcades, live music venues (more than now) etc etc. Hell I can even remember the Central cinema (On Bedford row for those too young to remember) showing the Ireland games during the world cup at the start of the 1990's.

I sometimes feel sorry for the folks who are too young to have experienced what Limerick was like back then because it really had a lot of options back then that it simply does not have anymore. It was far from perfect back then, but it was a lot less empty than now in 2012.

seachto7

@Kess73.

Yup, I remember it well, there were far more options in town, and times were supposed to be bad???
YOu had 2 cinemas in the centre, saying that , you had none in the burbs, where they are now located.....

zulutango

Kess73 wrote: »

Not quite sure how it is on the up. Has the highest % of all the Irish cities in terms of unemployment although Waterford comes close. Has the highest % of unused % retail/commercial units of any of the Irish cities. Came last of the Irish cities and Towns with a population over 20,000 in terms of footfall on main streets.

A lot of the stats relating to Limerick City are anomalies caused by the fact that the city boundary effectively excludes about 45% of the population, and much of this is a middle class demographic who would balance up a lot of those stats if they were included in them.

Kess73 wrote: »

The city centre has been on a downward spiral for quite some time now and the pity is that the rate of decline is a steady one.

Limerick city does have a hell of a lot of potential though, and one would hope to see it realised at some point. What is scary though is for anyone over 35 to think back to what the city centre was like in the 90's and 80's (despite there being a recession inh the 80's) in terms of shops (both in terms of the volume of stores and the amount of name brands in the city), commercial services, entertainment options like cinemas (plural), bowling alley, arcades, live music venues (more than now) etc etc. Hell I can even remember the Central cinema (On Bedford row for those too young to remember) showing the Ireland games during the world cup at the start of the 1990's.

I sometimes feel sorry for the folks who are too young to have experienced what Limerick was like back then because it really had a lot of options back then that it simply does not have anymore. It was far from perfect back then, but it was a lot less empty than now in 2012.

I take your points above. There has generally been a 'white flight' from the city in the past 20 years and the population now lives, for the most part, in the surrounding hinterland and suburbs. Retail in the city is going to continue to struggle until this demographic reality is changed.

marienbad

Until the boundary issue is resolved ( and that includes Clare) the city will continue to die .

Mc Love

Nah Marienbad - until the right people are in power the city and country will die.

Jimmy Garlic

RonnieLimerick wrote: »

As a limerick man may i say that the first thing i would get rid of is that god Awful statue of Richard Harris , i find the whole notion of a statue of an english king ( arthur ) with a sword in his hand standing in a limerick street to be beyond a joke

I think you will find that Arthur was a Brythonic king.. That said, the statue is a joke and an eyesore.

stefanovich

JupiterKid wrote: »

What's also pretty sad is that Limerick saw a lot of urban renewal in the 90s and 2000s - kicked off by the opening of the Arthurs Quay Centre - but it doesn't seem to have done the city much good.:(

It is a horrible building, too small and not enough shops. A few years ago they had a banner outside to celebrate 20 years, cannot believe it lasted that long.

Kess73

stefanovich wrote: »

It is a horrible building, too small and not enough shops. A few years ago they had a banner outside to celebrate 20 years, cannot believe it lasted that long.

I think the main issue there is unit size. Like Cruises street it had far too many units that were in the 2,500 square feet range or much smaller. That straight away took a lot of major retailers off the table in terms of who could be attracted. The same thing happened in the Coonagh centre where there are still 16 empty (and fairly small units) sitting beside the Tesco.

Cruises street would have benefitted from having a few of the units on it being built as one large unit rather then two or three small ones, so that there was a healthier range of unit sizes. Same thing applies to Arthurs Quay.

When one takes a look at the newer out of town centres that are flopping badly or that never took off (like the Coonagh cross centre, the Castletroy shopping centre), the same pattern of an overload of smaller units can be seen.

A big town/small city like Limerick will always end up with a number of out of town shopping centres and retail parks, but if the city centre had more modern units that could meet the needs of retailers who wanted to establish stores in the 5,000 square foot to 10,000 square foot range in the actual city centre, then I think a number of the bigger names that are in some of the retail parks might still be in the city centre or some may never have left the city centre.

Once a healthy number of larger store is established, then the small to medium sized ones will follow to feed on the footfall.

Granted this is a pretty simplistic way of putting things and there are of course a number of other factors to take into account regarding the city centre, but unit size is a problem in the city centre because many big retailers will not want a city centre unit that is five or six blocks from the central point of the city and you really have to go at least that far out to get a larger fairly modern unit.

Jofspring

Looks like the council are going to try make life as difficult as possible for limerick FC in the development of the markets field. The usual clowns are getting their say in demanding limerick FC build a community centre for the people of garryowen and are upset they were not involved in the pre planning of the Markets Field.

Christ the city is bad enough and now there is a chance to have a fantastic sports ground only a few minutes from the centre and the council want hand outs. I presume they would prefer the rat infested markets field rotting away.

marienbad

Kess73 wrote: »

I think the main issue there is unit size. Like Cruises street it had far too many units that were in the 2,500 square feet range or much smaller. That straight away took a lot of major retailers off the table in terms of who could be attracted. The same thing happened in the Coonagh centre where there are still 16 empty (and fairly small units) sitting beside the Tesco.

Cruises street would have benefitted from having a few of the units on it being built as one large unit rather then two or three small ones, so that there was a healthier range of unit sizes. Same thing applies to Arthurs Quay.

When one takes a look at the newer out of town centres that are flopping badly or that never took off (like the Coonagh cross centre, the Castletroy shopping centre), the same pattern of an overload of smaller units can be seen.

A big town/small city like Limerick will always end up with a number of out of town shopping centres and retail parks, but if the city centre had more modern units that could meet the needs of retailers who wanted to establish stores in the 5,000 square foot to 10,000 square foot range in the actual city centre, then I think a number of the bigger names that are in some of the retail parks might still be in the city centre or some may never have left the city centre.

Once a healthy number of larger store is established, then the small to medium sized ones will follow to feed on the footfall.

Granted this is a pretty simplistic way of putting things and there are of course a number of other factors to take into account regarding the city centre, but unit size is a problem in the city centre because many big retailers will not want a city centre unit that is five or six blocks from the central point of the city and you really have to go at least that far out to get a larger fairly modern unit.

I heard that there was a change in the planning permission when Coonagh Shopping Centre came into the city under the boundary change and this is why it remains unfinished and the City council put a stop to any further outlets

Kess73

marienbad wrote: »

I heard that there was a change in the planning permission when Coonagh Shopping Centre came into the city under the boundary change and this is why it remains unfinished and the City council put a stop to any further outlets

I am not talking about the retail park part of it which remains unfinished. I am talking about the shopping centre part that is connected onto the Tesco store. That bit has 16 units sitting idle. Have been inside it and been around it. It was meant to open in the final quarter of 2007. I know for a fact that there were at least two businesses that had signed up to open a unit in there that ended up setting up in another city because of the messing about that went on.

One of those companies had also expressed an interest in taking a unit in the pie in the sky Opera centre. They have opened units in Cork, Galway, and Belfast since 2008 and the Opera centre "plan" is still no closer to having anything built than it was back then.

Kess73

Jofspring wrote: »

Looks like the council are going to try make life as difficult as possible for limerick FC in the development of the markets field. The usual clowns are getting their say in demanding limerick FC build a community centre for the people of garryowen and are upset they were not involved in the pre planning of the Markets Field.

Christ the city is bad enough and now there is a chance to have a fantastic sports ground only a few minutes from the centre and the council want hand outs. I presume they would prefer the rat infested markets field rotting away.

That is exactly the type of clowns that make it difficult for things to happen in Limerick. Too many want to get their fat little fingers into pies without paying any money themselves.

Freebies and photo ops come first with many of them, rather than trying to be part of making the most of Limerick's potential. I really don't blame any business for setting up away from Limerick because parish pump rubbish seems to come before the big picture for too many people who are grossly under qualified for the positions of influence they hold.

jimstir

You are absolutely right. There hasn't been a significant jobs announcement for Limerick in I don't know how many years, despite several closures. Until this changes, the city and region will continue it's sad decline.[/Quote]


Its such a pity/shame that Limerick didn't get those 1000 Paypal jobs announced last Feb. The company was deciding between Limerick and Dundalk. Real pity Limerick didn't get them

christmas2012

Our government have to do better than a few jobs in paypal to be honest,there are over 400,000 since the last count out of work,and many more to come with redundancy deals,and other negotiations for retirement,and just being layed off work..

What we need are plenty more factories opening and more shops to stay open,what i see in limerick is shops closing down nearly every week there is a new shop closing down,its down to a few things:
recession
people having no money due to their wages and sw being cut
prices in accordance not coming down
high rents
no work being created
job blockers like jobbridge

TheGimp

christmas2012 wrote: »

Our government have to do better than a few jobs in paypal to be honest,there are over 400,000 since the last count out of work,and many more to come with redundancy deals,and other negotiations for retirement,and just being layed off work..

What we need are plenty more factories opening and more shops to stay open,what i see in limerick is shops closing down nearly every week there is a new shop closing down,its down to a few things:
recession
people having no money due to their wages and sw being cut
prices in accordance not coming down
high rents
no work being created
job blockers like jobbridge

I agee, just back from Cork and the difference is staggering. Place is booming and Limerick is dead in comparison.

Totally Tropical

I wouldn't necessarily say Limerick city is dying but there's no doubt that the city centre is not as buzzy or as vibrant as Corks.HMV closing is a big blow to the city centre and i think if Easons or O'Mahonys ever move out to the donut ring it could finish off the city centre.The out of town shopping centres haven't affected Cork city centre to the extent that they have affected Limerick city centre.The area around the Arthurs Quay shopping centre is a bit dreary.The Arthurs Quay shopping centre is probably the worst city centre based shopping centre that i have ever visited.Then there's that scaffolding across the road where the Opera Centre was supposed to be.William Street can be a bit glum when it's raining but it would improve a lot if there wasn't so many two euro shops.The area around the bus station could also be nicer.On the other hand while Cruises Street is a much maligned street i still think there's a nice selection of shops there.The stretch from Bedford Row to the end of Thomas Street is very nice and Henry Street look's a lot better now compared to a few years ago.The market quarter and the area around the Locke Bar are features that i think some locals fail to appreciate.While i agree with the poster who said that Cork city centre is much more enjoyable to walk around i still think Limerick is a very nice city especially when the sun is out and the people are very friendly.Limerick is still is a city well worth visiting but it's only operating to about 50% of what it's capable of.

Totally Tropical

Jofspring wrote: »

Noel's Menswear up on Wickham Street has nice stuff too but is pricey. Pretty much all the menswear shops are expensive and the cheaper ones are all selling the same stuff (Hoodies and T-shirts with big numbers and writing splashed across the front of them).

We need some kind of a decent city shopping centre to get people back into the city centre. Was up in the one in Galway about two weeks ago and it was very busy as was the whole of shop street, absolutely booming it was with loads of things happening up and down the street i.e buskers. It reminded me of Crusies Street from years ago when on a Saturday town was mobbed. To think if HMV pull out of the city centre there will be no music shop left in town. Golden Discs x2 and Empire Music gone.

Off the top of my head there is:

About 9 euro or discount stores in the city centre
1 Music Shop
4 menswear shops
8 or 9 ladies
4 sports stores
3 or 4 newsagents
2 Electronics stores
and one or two more little shops around.

The rest is probably made up of Cafes, Restuarants and Bars. All these things are spreaded way out also.

At the moment there's zero music stores.Menswear shops there's the two on Bedford Row,Connollys menswear and i think there's another on Wickham Street.Come to think of it there's definitely another menswear shop on Thomas Street.Is that all apart from the likes of Dunnes,Debenhams and Brown Thomas?Sports stores there's three on William Street,Champions Sports on Cruises Street and Elverys on Henry Street.Am i imagining things or is there a footlocker store on Cruises Street?So there's at least five.Im not sure about newsagents seeing that i only go to the one in Arthurs Quay or Easons whenever im in Limerick.I think that figure for the electric stores is also correct isn't there just Fitzgeralds on Henry Street and a small Currys store on William Street?Is there a hardware store in the city centre?There's no doubt that compared to Cork and Dublin city centres that the retail offerings in Limerick city centre could be better but credit where credits due there's no complaints with the range and choice of restaurant cafes and pubs in Limerick city centre.

ZombieBride

Limerick City isn't dying, it's dead. The dandelions are growing on its grave.

The castle is close, the museum is in a hall, the theatre (Beltable) is shut. We have no real music shop, we have no real toy shop. Patrick Street/Rutland Street/Ellen Street most of Mallow Street/Denmark Street/Cruises Street/Gerald Griffin Street are shut (there are probably more)

Most pubs can barely hold a crowd, same with the restaurants, I've often been in these places on a day that isn't Friday or Saturday (and even those in some cases) and I could count the customers on one hand.

I love Limerick, but she has been let down badly. This week alone three of my friends left the country as jobs are just not to be had here. I've been trying ingenious ways to get a fulltime job myself (I'm one of the lucky ones that my hours were only cut exponentially but I was not fully let go) but we often stand around looking at each other as no one comes into us.

What do we need to improve Limerick? It all boils down to jobs, then the circle would redevelop itself, if we had jobs we would have money, if we had money we would spend money, thus creating jobs. But first we need that big boost as since Dell left we have been *&(%ed and unless the powers that be get their finger out and give employers what they want (in terms of tax breaks and efficiency when it comes to decision making) then this town will become an even greater ghost town.

Poxyshamrock

ZombieBride wrote: »

Limerick City isn't dying, it's dead. The dandelions are growing on its grave.

The castle is close, the museum is in a hall, the theatre (Beltable) is shut. We have no real music shop, we have no real toy shop. Patrick Street/Rutland Street/Ellen Street most of Mallow Street/Denmark Street/Cruises Street/Gerald Griffin Street are shut (there are probably more)

Most pubs can barely hold a crowd, same with the restaurants, I've often been in these places on a day that isn't Friday or Saturday (and even those in some cases) and I could count the customers on one hand.

I love Limerick, but she has been let down badly. This week alone three of my friends left the country as jobs are just not to be had here. I've been trying ingenious ways to get a fulltime job myself (I'm one of the lucky ones that my hours were only cut exponentially but I was not fully let go) but we often stand around looking at each other as no one comes into us.

What do we need to improve Limerick? It all boils down to jobs, then the circle would redevelop itself, if we had jobs we would have money, if we had money we would spend money, thus creating jobs. But first we need that big boost as since Dell left we have been *&(%ed and unless the powers that be get their finger out and give employers what they want (in terms of tax breaks and efficiency when it comes to decision making) then this town will become an even greater ghost town.

Couldn't agree more!

The councils have a lot to answer for too though.

Allowing Castletroy and Raheen to grow to their size was ridiculous.
Add to that the amount of one off housing around the suburbs!

Cityslicker1

The difference between Limerick and Cork/Galway is that their centres are better presented than Limerick city centre and another major issue Limerick has is its bad reputation. O' Connell street in Limerick has no presentation at all, compare it to St. Patrick street in Cork..advertising posters, trees, tall lamps that are reminiscent of ships' mast, fancy paving etc. Most people posting here do not value Cork/Galway for their architectural value but for how well they are presented and maintained. Limerick trumps Galway architecturally and Cork isn't that great either other than some nice buildings on St. Patrick street and South Mall. Limerick is extensively Georgian and is the best example of late Georgian architecture outside of Dublin in the country. Not only that but there is a castle right in the centre overlooking the southern bank of the Shannon, something both Cork and Galway don't have. The river front in Cork is ugly in my opinion especially along Merchants Quay..compare that to Limericks river front..best in the country by a mile. Places like the Cresent where the Daniel O' Connell statue is at the top of O' Connell street or Pery Square are fantastic areas of architecture..nowhere in cork or Galway are as grand as that Georgian core. I'm not looking at Limerick through rose colored glasses either. I accept that Limerick has problems with empty units etc. It's frustrating that Limerick has so much obvious potential but is constantly left in the shadows of Cork and Galway purely because of bad management, poor decisions and choices of Limerick city council.

pigtown

Speaking of the Georgian buildings, the vast majority of them are protected buildings and thank god for that. It does however mean that they are more difficult and expensive to revamp and upgrade. It's well known that major retailers want modern spaces to trade from and trying to adapt many of the city's buildings is just not worth the hastle for them. This is an issue beyond the powers of the city council and needs direction from government to tackle.

Totally Tropical

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

The difference between Limerick and Cork/Galway is that their centres are better presented than Limerick city centre and another major issue Limerick has is its bad reputation. O' Connell street in Limerick has no presentation at all, compare it to St. Patrick street in Cork..advertising posters, trees, tall lamps that are reminiscent of ships' mast, fancy paving etc. Most people posting here do not value Cork/Galway for their architectural value but for how well they are presented and maintained. Limerick trumps Galway architecturally and Cork isn't that great either other than some nice buildings on St. Patrick street and South Mall. Limerick is extensively Georgian and is the best example of late Georgian architecture outside of Dublin in the country. Not only that but there is a castle right in the centre overlooking the southern bank of the Shannon, something both Cork and Galway don't have. The river front in Cork is ugly in my opinion especially along Merchants Quay..compare that to Limericks river front..best in the country by a mile. Places like the Cresent where the Daniel O' Connell statue is at the top of O' Connell street or Pery Square are fantastic areas of architecture..nowhere in cork or Galway are as grand as that Georgian core. I'm not looking at Limerick through rose colored glasses either. I accept that Limerick has problems with empty units etc. It's frustrating that Limerick has so much obvious potential but is left constantly in the shadows of Cork and Galway purely because of bad management, poor decisions and choices of Limerick city council.

I think a lot of people don't really like the dour georgian grid layout of Limerick city centre.I think Cork for example has a nice mix of large wide streets and small laneways.I don't know much about Galway but Cork has poor architecture you say.The Shandon Steeple,St Finbarrs Cathedral,City Hall,The Elysian building,The Opera House,The Crawford Art Gallery,the church on Father Matthew Quay,the buildings along the South Mall not to mention the elegant facades of the Debenhams and Brown Thomas stores.That's poor architecture is it?As for the river the Merchants Quay shopping centre is a horrific building that's a blight on that part of the river but that's just a part of the river front.What about further up the river towards Popes Quay and around Lapps Quay/city hall and out towards the marina?However i agree with most of you're points about Limerick.I think Limerick is a fine city.It would be an even finer city if the city centre wasn't left get to a stage where it's in the condition that it is now by Limerick city council and the gardai.

Cityslicker1

Totally Tropical wrote: »

I think a lot of people don't really like the dour georgian grid layout of Limerick city centre.I think Cork for example has a nice mix of large wide streets and small laneways.I don't know much about Galway but Cork has poor architecture you say.The Shandon Steeple,St Finbarrs Cathedral,City Hall,The Elysian building,The Opera House,The Crawford Art Gallery,the church on Father Matthew Quay,the buildings along the South Mall not to mention the elegant facades of the Debenhams and Brown Thomas stores.That's poor architecture is it?As for the river the Merchants Quay shopping centre is a horrific building that's a blight on that part of the river but that's just a part of the river front.What about further up the river towards Popes Quay and around Lapps Quay/city hall and out towards the marina?However i agree with most of you're points about Limerick.I think Limerick is a fine city.It would be an even finer city if the city centre wasn't left get to a stage where it's in the condition that it is now by Limerick city council and the gardai.

I actually like Cork. I just meant that Limerick has a more uniform architectural pattern than Cork. Most of the streets in Limerick are Georgian and of the same height and width however there are a number of narrow streets such as Fox's Bow, Little Catherine street, Chapel street etc. I think part of the appeal of Cork cc is the compact pedestrian feel. Limerick city centre feels bigger than Cork cc to me. To go from the Hunt Museum to the Daniel O' Connell statue at the top of O' Connell street is about 1km and you're still in the city centre. If you walk from the bridge at St. Patrick street in Cork and continue up the street and continue walking for 1km you will end up near the gates of UCC which isn't in the cc, no matter what side of the city centre you walk from you won't remain in the cc if you continue walking for a Km in Cork. In fairness though Cork is a nice city with a quaint tourist feel that is marketed well. Limerick isn't marketed at all, has a bad reputation, Georgian architecture suffering from poor investment and neglect and a council that don't seem too bothered but it's also a city with massive potential.