Being Drunk is Typically Irish Says Trinity Student - But is it ?

Kevin Duffy

IngazZagni wrote: »

Ugh okay here is a more simple version, referring to beer consumption only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_beer_consumption_per_capita

Now you can have other people on here saying you can't take these at face value or whatever but these facts do tell a story. I mean this alcohol is being consumed, it has to go somewhere and I'd hazard a guess that most of it is drunk by people. Again, not everyone but typically by most yes.

So we're high on beer consumption, so what? It's not the only thing you can get drunk on and the thread was about a comment on drunkeness, not just beer consumption. You can't just change the set of stats you use to suit your argument. The first table says that in total consumption of alcohol Ireland comes 15th, consumption and drunkeness, while obviously related, are not the same thing, so I still think the comment that "it's typically Irish" was off message and your stats don't change that.

Some Irish people get drunk, some don't drink at all, some of the drunk people are not Irish, some drink so far above the average in a binge that our stats are meaningless, some people can get smashed and be no hassle or not look out of it, some people can't walk into a pub without becoming obnoxious and a hassle to everyone and they're eyecatching when we see them. Typical Irish? Which one?

IngazZagni

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

So we're high on beer consumption, so what? It's not the only thing you can get drunk on and the thread was about a comment on drunkeness, not just beer consumption. You can't just change the set of stats you use to suit your argument. The first table says that in total consumption of alcohol Ireland comes 15th, consumption and drunkeness, while obviously related, are not the same thing, so I still think the comment that "it's typically Irish" was off message and your stats don't change that.

Some Irish people get drunk, some don't drink at all, some of the drunk people are not Irish, some drink so far above the average in a binge that our stats are meaningless, some people can get smashed and be no hassle or not look out of it, some people can't walk into a pub without becoming obnoxious and a hassle to everyone and they're eyecatching when we see them. Typical Irish? Which one?

It's blatantly obvious that this Country has a drinking culture. Even without stats that would and is well known. I'm not stating an opinion on whether that's good or bad I'm just stating that's how it is. I'm basing this argument on my travels around the Country and talking to mates and friends of friends. It's "typical" to get an answer of "lets get pissed" after asking what should we do today?
Again I stress that is that representing ALL of Ireland? Of course not but it does sum up the majority.

Kevin Duffy

IngazZagni wrote: »

Of course not but it does sum up the majority.

Can you back that up? I mean other than using your friends as an example.

IngazZagni

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Can you back that up? I mean other than using your friends as an example.

What else could I give other than facts and opinions of my friends and friends of friends which I've already given?
But you know what, I don't care if you do or don't want to believe it.

Kevin Duffy

IngazZagni wrote: »

What else could I give other than facts and opinions of my friends and friends of friends which I've already given?
But you know what, I don't care if you do or don't want to believe it. /end

So no, you can't back it up then. Grand, thanks.

IngazZagni

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

So no, you can't back it up then. Grand, thanks.

I'll tell you what, can you back up your theory that Ireland is a sober nation who only drink a handful when out on the town. Show me that the majority of Irish Adults don't get drunk. Oh and facts, stats and friends opinions will not do. Thanks...

Kevin Duffy

IngazZagni wrote: »

I'll tell you what, can you back up your theory that Ireland is a sober nation who only drink a handful when out on the town. Show me that the majority of Irish Adults don't get drunk. Oh and facts, stats and friends opinions will not do. Thanks...

I didn't say Ireland was "a sober nation", I'm saying the idea that drunkeness=typical Irish is wrong. I also never said that the whole nation only drinks a handful on the town, I clearly said some people binge, more than once.
I haven't offered friends opinions, because they would only be opinions and because one group of friends does not represent a whole nation or culture, including your social circle. The stats you offered didn't actually back up what you were saying, or the contention at the centre of the thread and you haven't offered any facts, just your opinion. When I asked you to back up your conclusion and/or to offer an interpretation of the stats that backed it up, you couldn't.

CDfm

Personal experience is important, 25 % of Irish Adults do not drink.

http://ec.europa.eu/health/alcohol/policy/country_profiles/ireland_country_profile.pdf

Drinking by young people is on the up and people start drinking earlier -
Alcoholism, Alcohol Abuse and Heavy Drinking:
Irish College Males’ Perspectives on Alcohol-related Problems link here

http://www.ul.ie/sociology/socheolas/vol2/1/Yichen%20Jiang.pdf

Background
The third highest rate of drunkenness in Europe has been
reported for Irish teenagers, with only teenagers from
Britain and the Isle of Man getting drunk more frequently
[1]. In the past two decades, the average age of onset of
drinking has dropped dramatically in Ireland by 3.5 years
to 15 years [2]. Mongan et al reported an increase in the
number of children presenting to A&E for alcohol related
reasons in the past decade [3].
Early onset drinking is associated with a range of negative
outcomes, including increased risk of later alcohol
dependence [4-7], increased risk of drug abuse [8,9],
criminal behaviour [10], sexual risk behaviour [11] and
suicidal behaviour [12]. Recent research has also highlighted
the negative impact which regular alcohol use can
have on the developing adolescent brain [13].

http://www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/118911/2/1471-2458-10-297.pdf

IngazZagni

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

I didn't say Ireland was "a sober nation", I'm saying the idea that drunkeness=typical Irish is wrong. I also never said that the whole nation only drinks a handful on the town, I clearly said some people binge, more than once.
I haven't offered friends opinions, because they would only be opinions and because one group of friends does not represent a whole nation or culture, including your social circle. The stats you offered didn't actually back up what you were saying, or the contention at the centre of the thread and you haven't offered any facts, just your opinion. When I asked you to back up your conclusion and/or to offer an interpretation of the stats that backed it up, you couldn't.

And neither can you it seems. This Country has a drinking culture, can anyone argue that? Did this all start because of an issue with the word "typical"? I will go back and answer the OP once again in that I agreed with Haskins comment. It's not just TCD students, it's UCD, WIT, UL, UCC students as well. It's also a huge proportion of other Irish people. I'm sure if Haskins could clarify his comment he would have meant it's a culture of "most" as in 50% plus. Simple as...

Kevin Duffy

IngazZagni wrote: »

And neither can you it seems. This Country has a drinking culture, can anyone argue that? Did this all start because of an issue with the word "typical"? I will go back and answer the OP once again in that I agreed with Haskins comment. It's not just TCD students, it's UCD, WIT, UL, UCC students as well. It's also a huge proportion of other Irish people. I'm sure if Haskins could clarify his comment he would have meant it's a culture of "most" as in 50% plus. Simple as...

Yeh, I can back it up, not that you asked before now. I’m taking the stats from memory and rounding them.
From the stats above, taking 2002 as the peak drinking year, an average of all adults (men and women, 18 to 85, presented as two separate groups as there is no overall figure in the report IIRC) binge drinking gives a figure of roughly 29%. The total for abstainers is 25%. There are roughly 4% more binge drinkers that non-drinkers and approx. 46% of all drinkers are somewhere in the middle, probably described as moderate drinkers.
So, 71% (roughly) of all Irish adults are not binge drinking. Over 2/3. Almost ¾. That’s the “typical” part of his comment blown up.
The Irish part – we come 15th for overall consumption according to your stats. And the total consumption has been falling in recent years. Again, his comment is not borne out by the stats.
Do we have a problem with some people’s attitude to alcohol and drunkenness? Yes, we do. Can we say it’s typically Irish? Not according to the stats. Can we say “it's a culture of "most" as in 50% plus. Simple as...”? Not without egg on your face, by a factor of 21%.

CDfm

We had a discussion in the History & Heritage Forum about it.

A bit "folkloreish" but there are a few nuggets in it and a sociologist would probably explain agrarian societies better than we did.But in the 19th century I doubt if subsistence farmers were on the lash all the time.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056207209

If you are making statistical adjustments how do our young people compare with other cultures demographically.

Like if 50 % of our population is under 25 and young people drink more then comparing our consumption or patterns with a country with 25% of the population under 25 will be correct statistics but not valid.

Also, of we compare our Trinity Ball to say a Madrid comparison as opposed to a British one -who also binge drink - we leave ourselves off the hook.

And so - to not leave ourselves off the hook how do we measure it.

Are there specific alcohol related illnesses or deaths we can compare. Does it impact on suicides etc.

Is our experience better or worse than the Euro average.

IngazZagni

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Yeh, I can back it up, not that you asked before now. I’m taking the stats from memory and rounding them.
From the stats above, taking 2002 as the peak drinking year, an average of all adults (men and women, 18 to 85, presented as two separate groups as there is no overall figure in the report IIRC) binge drinking gives a figure of roughly 29%. The total for abstainers is 25%. There are roughly 4% more binge drinkers that non-drinkers and approx. 46% of all drinkers are somewhere in the middle, probably described as moderate drinkers.
So, 71% (roughly) of all Irish adults are not binge drinking. Over 2/3. Almost ¾. That’s the “typical” part of his comment blown up.
The Irish part – we come 15th for overall consumption according to your stats. And the total consumption has been falling in recent years. Again, his comment is not borne out by the stats.
Do we have a problem with some people’s attitude to alcohol and drunkenness? Yes, we do. Can we say it’s typically Irish? Not according to the stats. Can we say “it's a culture of "most" as in 50% plus. Simple as...”? Not without egg on your face, by a factor of 21%.

I did ask before. Did I ever mention binge drinking? No. Do you have to binge drink to get drunk? No. Therefore your stats are meaningless. How many people go out not having the intention of getting drunk, yet they do and wake up regretting it saying they won't do that again... but one week later they do the exact same thing. Those sort of people, who would count as a lot wouldn't be factored into those "stats".

My stats do not show Ireland as 15th, it's 4th under official data, unrecorded data is assumed data. But for example Moldova having 10.0 in unrecorded data is ridiculous and I don't know where they came up with that.

Yes alcohol consumption has been decreasing overall over the past few years and at a fair rate although youth consumption is on the up. To still have the figures we do after that drop tells you something.

One of your stats is amazing and even I didn't realize it was that high. 29% of people whose SOLE PURPOSE is to get wasted. Highest in the EU for starters. That's very nearly one in three. That's incredible. Factor in all the other people who get drunk but don't binge drink per say..

We don't have a drinking culture? It's not "typically Irish"? It's just a phrase man, it doesn't have scientific meaning. You can't sum up an entire opinion with a twitter style comment.

tbh

lads - this isn't a subject that needs us to get all confrontational - lets dial down the agression a little. It's ok to disagree.

Kevin Duffy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Duffy

Yeh, I can back it up, not that you asked before now. I’m taking the stats from memory and rounding them.
From the stats above, taking 2002 as the peak drinking year, an average of all adults (men and women, 18 to 85, presented as two separate groups as there is no overall figure in the report IIRC) binge drinking gives a figure of roughly 29%. The total for abstainers is 25%. There are roughly 4% more binge drinkers that non-drinkers and approx. 46% of all drinkers are somewhere in the middle, probably described as moderate drinkers.
So, 71% (roughly) of all Irish adults are not binge drinking. Over 2/3. Almost ¾. That’s the “typical” part of his comment blown up.
The Irish part – we come 15th for overall consumption according to your stats. And the total consumption has been falling in recent years. Again, his comment is not borne out by the stats.
Do we have a problem with some people’s attitude to alcohol and drunkenness? Yes, we do. Can we say it’s typically Irish? Not according to the stats. Can we say “it's a culture of "most" as in 50% plus. Simple as...”? Not without egg on your face, by a factor of 21%.

Did I ever mention binge drinking? No. Do you have to binge drink to get drunk? No. Therefore your stats are meaningless. How many people go out not having the intention of getting drunk, yet they do and wake up regretting it saying they won't do that again... but one week later they do the exact same thing. Those sort of people, who would count as a lot wouldn't be factored into those "stats".

Huh? For a start, binge drinking is the very behaviour the thread is about. So some people do it more than once and don’t learn whatever lesson you think they should have – so what? And they would be factored into the stats, which are cited for a binge drink within the last week. Also, the low level of definition of a binge is such that most healthy adults would have to pass it to get drunk.

My stats do not show Ireland as 15th, it's 4th under official data, unrecorded data is assumed data. But for example Moldova having 10.0 in unrecorded data is ridiculous and I don't know where they came up with that.

Right, so you’re now arguing with the stats you provided yourself. If you don’t accept the Moldovan stats, you can’t accept the rest of it either. Either the survey is good, or it’s not. Ireland is 15th in the table for total consumption, no matter how much you wish it was somewhere else to suit your argument.

One of your stats is amazing and even I didn't realize it was that high. 29% of people whose SOLE PURPOSE is to get wasted. Highest in the EU for starters. That's very nearly one in three. That's incredible. Factor in all the other people who get drunk but don't binge drink per say..

Who said their “sole purpose” was to get wasted? Not sure of the definition of binge they use in the survey, but it’s usually a pretty low level, about 4 to 5 units qualifying as a binge. Do you have a stat for “all the other people who get drunk but don't binge drink per say”, or do you just wish that there were lots of people drunk on less than 4 or 5 units ‘cos they’d suit your argument?
29% is high in your opinion, but is still well below the 50% you set as a standard for "typical" and below what most people think of as the meaning "typical".

We don't have a drinking culture? It's not "typically Irish"? It's just a phrase man, it doesn't have scientific meaning. You can't sum up an entire opinion with a twitter style comment.

Er, you’re now dismissing his comment and saying it was baseless, which is contrary to your argument up to now. Make up your mind.

Kevin Duffy

tbh wrote: »

lads - this isn't a subject that needs us to get all confrontational - lets dial down the agression a little. It's ok to disagree.

Didn't realise it appeared confrontational, apologies. Very interested in the subject and was aiming to address the argument only.

CDfm

I imagine Dylan Haskins will be of the view that for Irish venues it is "normal" and part of how gigs get run. If thats the usual is that the culture ?

Maybe Jessie J doesnt get out enough and Cinderella wasn't expecting to perform to a mosh pit.

theboat

Ok, figure I'll throw my own personal experience into the mix.

I've been living in France since last september, while doing my Erasmus year. As a result, I've met students from all over the world. In my experience, the students I have met from America, Canada, Australia, Germany, France and England drink in very similar ways to Irish students on a night out.
A considerable proportion of these aim to get drunk, as seems to be in question here, in relation to Ireland. So, as far as I can tell, it's a common thing among students in general to get drunk on a regular basis.

That said, Ireland certainly has a reputation around the world as being a country of particularly heavy drinkers. Everybody I've met since coming to France has mentioned it (though, it must be said, not always as something negative).

For me though, the difference that I've noticed between 'drunk' in Ireland and 'drunk' elsewhere is that there seems often to be an unpleasantness or even an aggression that appears when Irish students get drunk which I have noticed a lot less here in France. I have seen one fight as a result of drink in the last 7 months here, as opposed to countless scraps on nights out in Dublin. There's much less of the 'messy drunk', in my experience.
I also noticed this at the Sziget music festival in Budapest, which attracts people from all over Europe. People there were getting really drunk, but I never once saw a fight, or people getting sick all over the place etc. Whereas, if you look at the likes of Harcourt St. or Camden St. as clubs and pubs close, the place is usually in a ridiculous state, as are many of the people!

Of course I know plenty of people who don't adhere to this image of Ireland, but I also know many who do, so even if it's not "typically" Irish, it's certainly common enough to be, in my opinion, a serious problem.

CDfm

I just wonder how much of that comes down to policing and enforcement.

IngazZagni

theboat wrote: »

Ok, figure I'll throw my own personal experience into the mix.

I've been living in France since last september, while doing my Erasmus year. As a result, I've met students from all over the world. In my experience, the students I have met from America, Canada, Australia, Germany, France and England drink in very similar ways to Irish students on a night out.
A considerable proportion of these aim to get drunk, as seems to be in question here, in relation to Ireland. So, as far as I can tell, it's a common thing among students in general to get drunk on a regular basis.

That said, Ireland certainly has a reputation around the world as being a country of particularly heavy drinkers. Everybody I've met since coming to France has mentioned it (though, it must be said, not always as something negative).

Agreed. I lived in Florida for a year as I said and the general consensus was that it was "typically Irish" to go out and get drunk. But that generally wasn't meant as a bad thing.

theboat wrote: »

Of course I know plenty of people who don't adhere to this image of Ireland, but I also know many who do, so even if it's not "typically" Irish, it's certainly common enough to be, in my opinion, a serious problem.

Agreed, and that's the point I was trying to put across as well. Remember there is a difference between being drunk and being messy drunk. I would say the majourity of those TCD students were drunk but only a minority where in the "messy stage" that was the whole point of the original comments. So it all boils down to what we define as "drunk" and what that "typical" comment was referring to.

theboat

CDfm wrote: »

I just wonder how much of that comes down to policing and enforcement.

Yeah, it's hard to know, I guess.
In France, drinking in the street is allowed, and lots of clubs stay open much later than in Ireland. The fact that neither of these are allowed in Ireland doesn't seem to have made an impact on levels of drunkenness. Maybe, like with many things, restricting the licensing laws has just had a reverse-psychological effect. I don't know!
As for policing, I haven't noticed police having a more obvious presence in France than in Ireland. That said, you certainly wouldn't pick a fight with a French cop...

CDfm

As a student I spent time in Calofornia and it was fairly well understood that public drunkeness was an offence.

I actually cant remember seeing any public drunkeness - anyway its part of the law and enforced in a way we would find heavy handed.

http://www.shouselaw.com/drunk-in-public.html

It also strikes me that Jessie J specifically mentioned young women & lots of the literature reviews is about guys.

FloatingVoter

Serious grownup drinking = quietly, patiently getting ossified and minding your own business.

Student drinking = loudly, quickly and walking backwalks or falling up stairs (yes, I have seen this done).

Not drinking = you're a tourist, or like me, you've done far too much of the first option.

Wolflikeme

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

And whats wrong with doing any of the above?

Just saying - it is typically Irish. As I said, I not condemning it.

HavingCrack

CDfm wrote: »

Also, of we compare our Trinity Ball to say a Madrid comparison as opposed to a British one -who also binge drink - we leave ourselves off the hook.

You obviously haven't been around too many younger Spaniards. They have a serious drinking problem over there called the 'big bottle' which has only developed in the last decade or so. They even outlawed public consumption (previously legal) in several cites in an attempt to curb binge drinking.

Eve_Dublin

HavingCrack wrote: »

You obviously haven't been around too many younger Spaniards. They have a serious drinking problem over there called the 'big bottle' which has only developed in the last decade or so. They even outlawed public consumption (previously legal) in several cites in an attempt to curb binge drinking.

I disagree. I live in Madrid as well and although these kids are drunk, they're not vomiting, picking fights or carrying each other down the street and can generally walk on their own without stumbling. I don't think that would be seen well among young people. I'm surprised by how civilised it all is here actually, even though the adults and the media think it's some massive problem (I suppose it is a problem of sorts if you're not comparing it to Ireland). You do see the odd exception but generally I think they're grand. Nothing like the drinking that went on in my day. Teenagers will experiment but I think the young Spanish do a pretty good job of it imo.

Galvasean

What bugs me is the hordes, abslute hordes of drunken 14 year olds that stumble their way loudly through towns across Ireland every Friday/Saturday night, (loudly) singing rebel songs (poorly I must say), pissing in the street, running through people's gardens, pulling at the windshield wipers of automobiles and yelling incoherent jibberish at anyone unfortunate enough to be on the same street.
Seriously, are police not able to arrest these bozos or what? It seems to have become 'normal' now.
Oh sweet Jesus, I just realised my local secondary school finished up for Easter today...

CDfm

I was at the Wacken Heavy Metal Festival in Germany last year.Spent a day or 2 in Hamburg too. Hassle free.

So no -not all Europeans are into drunken fights

Last year I was in Ennis at Junior Cert night and the cops were out stoping traffic to leave the drunken hoard pass.

HavingCrack

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I disagree. I live in Madrid as well and although these kids are drunk, they're not vomiting, picking fights or carrying each other down the street and can generally walk on their own without stumbling. I don't think that would be seen well among young people. I'm surprised by how civilised it all is here actually, even though the adults and the media think it's some massive problem (I suppose it is a problem of sorts if you're not comparing it to Ireland). You do see the odd exception but generally I think they're grand. Nothing like the drinking that went on in my day. Teenagers will experiment but I think the young Spanish do a pretty good job of it imo.

Fair enough, I've never been to Madrid so can't comment, I presume you know much more about it than I do. I'm only basing it on my experience in Barcelona where I saw some carrying ons that wouldn't have been out of place in Dublin.

CDfm

An apologia in todays Indo comparing Trinity with US Colleges

Animal House, 2011-style

Singer Jessie J was shocked by the drunkenness when she sang at the Trinity Ball. But that was tame compared to many US colleges, says Caitriona Palmer in Washington



Saturday April 16 2011

British singer Jessie J is used to performing in front of raucous crowds -- but nothing could prepare this pop princess for the experience of playing Dublin's annual Trinity Ball last weekend.



http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/animal-house-2011style-2621250.html

She omited a bit in her comparison about irish college life.

I did a quick google and came up with this on Trinity.

Ski trip crashers assault Trinity student, compete in ‘spend-off’





Paul Quinn and Conor Williams. Conor Williams will be facing a disciplinary hearing from the Junior Dean.

Tom Lowe, Editor
A University Times investigation has revealed that members of a group of between 25 and 30 students, alumni of the private South Dublin schools Blackrock College, CBC Monkstown and Mount Anville wreaked havoc on Trinity’s Snowsports Club’s annual ski trip in the week prior to the start of term.
It is clear that the French police were called at least twice to the Les Deux Alpes resort, near Grenoble, where both the 300+ strong DUSSC contingent and the separate group were staying. Both the DUSSC trip and the external trip were ejected from the hotel by gendarmes after a swastika was daubed on the wall of the third floor of the hotel with a two-inch thick paint marker. Displaying a swastika is punishable by a custodial sentence in France.
A third year Trinity student was assaulted by four of the group. The four males entered her room as she and her two female room-mates slept.


http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=254

elefant

I concur with pretty much everything the poster in France said.

I spent a year in Holland, and the overriding association with being Irish was drink (and as was said, not always mentioned in a bad way. All the Irish on exchange were very well liked).

In my entire time in Holland (9 months to be precise) I can't recall a single fight on the streets. Things might have been messy but were never out of hand. The police presence was indeed much greater in Holland, and mounted police were a common sight on the streets at night.

However, I think the biggest cause of consternation in cities around Ireland every night is the fact that pretty much every club closes at the same time, and that time is quite early. Where I stayed in Holland the bars and clubs closed at ~5 or 6 am. People rarely stayed out this late, and as a result there were never huge gatherings of inebriated revellers outside chip-shops at the same time.

Everything here seems to just add up to us garnering a bad rep when it comes to drinking. Our behaviour when we drink (a broad stereotype, but hard to argue with if you just go stand outside a supermac's on a saturday night), the lack of police presence, the early closing times and, maybe paradoxically, the high price of drink. (Maybe I'm wrong on the last point, but it seemed to me students on the continent at any rate had less qualms about having a few casual beers without getting smashed. I think this was due, in a big way, to the fact that this could be done without having to spend much money. I could be wring on this point). All in all, Irish people certainly do have a bad reputation when it comes to drinking, and I'm a little sad to say I don't think it's unwarranted.

Sorry for the rambling post!