Has Mixed Martial Arts influenced your trad MA ?

HellsAngel

Wondering the above. I'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, also have trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and some MMA ( never fought in the cage, just trained at it). So has your Trad club be it TKD, Karate, Judo etc been influenced by BJJ/MMA in any way. Are people trying to introduce ground fighting as part of their self defence syllabus etc ?

( I must point out, that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which is mostly ground fighting and is NOT the same as MMA which has more standup punches, kicks, Wrestling and Judo takedowns etc. )

antybots

Nope. They're sticking to the syllabus at my school.

ryoishin

Yep set ups for submissions.

yomchi

A video about aliveness (matt thornton) posted on a TKD forum about 7 or 8 years ago influenced my training, made perfect sense.

Doug Cartel

OK, you do realise BJJ is a traditional martial art right? It split form judo long before TKD split form karate.

Tim_Murphy

MMA had an effect on how I train my TMA in that I no longer train in my TMA.

Barry.Oglesby

My traditional martial art IS BJJ so I suppose it's had an effect... on itself?

Doug Cartel

Last night in judo, I was playing a bit of inverted spider guard.

Unfortunately, I was actually trying to do a juji-roll at the time, and I have no idea how I ended up in the position I did.

arybvtcw0eolkf

MMA has had no effect at all on my Judo.

However training BJJ with Paul Cowzer and Andy Ryan have improved my Newaza (ground game) in Judo and made me think outside the box.

But I think a BJJ player would see a bigger improvement in their game if they cross trained in Judo than a Judo player would get from cross training with BJJ players.

I think MMA has had a huge influence on BJJ. Tbh, I'm tired of telling people that BJJ is not MMA - sad but true, some people delude themselves that it is.

Charlie3dan

No the essentials are still the same, nothing added or removed. Training methods may have improved in some ways but not necessarily down to MMA.

I personally now train in BJJ (very much a beginner) as well as Karate, but that's simply because they've opened a BJJ club near me that doesn't clash with Karate training times. If it were any other type of MA I would have tried that out too. Bejaysus I love fightin!

*I realise BJJ is not MMA, just answering the OP's question

Sid_Justice

I think MMA has caused my Judo to worsen. The most important factor being time away from judo training. But also a change in attitude. I like the grappling I do to work in the gi and no-gi and be as applicable to MMA as possible and this is at odds with 'high-level' judo. As better grappler in general, but quite poor in judo.

Chris89

I think MMA has had a huge influence on BJJ. Tbh, I'm tired of telling people that BJJ is not MMA - sad but true, some people delude themselves that it is.

I dont agree with that, just because a lot of people who dont train think that MMA and BJJ are the same thing, doesnt mean that BJJ is in any way influenced.

Sport BJJ is 100% seperate from MMA, there is absolutely no need for BJJ to draw influence from MMA, MMA can take from BJJ but certainly not the other way around.

EnjoyChoke

BJJ has had a huge influence on MMA, being one of the founding components. MMA has had a huge influence on BJJ, in terms of driving people into the sport.
As for people confusing the two, to "outsiders" we're all playing karate.

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

But I think a BJJ player would see a bigger improvement in their game if they cross trained in Judo than a Judo player would get from cross training with BJJ players.

All things being equal, I reckon the cross training benefit is about the same.
A Judo player can still have a top level competitive game with a poor ground game and a BJJ player can still have a top level competitive game with poor takedowns. In both cases cross training involves improving aspects that aren't fundamental to being a competitive player.

pablohoney87

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

All things being equal, I reckon the cross training benefit is about the same.
A Judo player can still have a top level competitive game with a poor ground game and a BJJ player can still have a top level competitive game with poor takedowns. In both cases cross training involves improving aspects that aren't fundamental to being a competitive player.

Nah I reckon with the rules these days a bjj player with great judo is gonna stand out more than a judoka with great newaze. These days especially in the gi top control is so important. Think a great example is jacre. Hes got world class judo and bjj. His judo stands much more to him in bjj than his bjj in judo.

EnjoyChoke

Right so.

Doug Cartel

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Nah I reckon with the rules these days a bjj player with great judo is gonna stand out more than a judoka with great newaze. These days especially in the gi top control is so important. Think a great example is jacre. Hes got world class judo and bjj. His judo stands much more to him in bjj than his bjj in judo.

I think that if you want your judo to work in a BJJ competition, you have to be fairly slick. Way beyond what you'd get from a bit of casual cross training.

On the other hand, I think even a small bit of BJJ is going to help with your newazza. Not in a competitive situation, but in training when you're wrestling from the knees. Judo guys are typically good at holding pins, escaping, and attacking the turtle. It drives me nuts to see guys stuck in guard because the one on the bottom doesn't know how to do anything other than hold on, and the one on top doesn't know how to pass.

da-bres

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Nah I reckon with the rules these days a bjj player with great judo is gonna stand out more than a judoka with great newaze. These days especially in the gi top control is so important. Think a great example is jacre. Hes got world class judo and bjj. His judo stands much more to him in bjj than his bjj in judo.

two words:

Flavio Canto

da-bres

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I think that if you want your judo to work in a BJJ competition, you have to be fairly slick. Way beyond what you'd get from a bit of casual cross training.

On the other hand, I think even a small bit of BJJ is going to help with your newazza. Not in a competitive situation, but in training when you're wrestling from the knees. Judo guys are typically good at holding pins, escaping, and attacking the turtle. It drives me nuts to see guys stuck in guard because the one on the bottom doesn't know how to do anything other than hold on, and the one on top doesn't know how to pass.

Partly agree, although IMO it would greatly help in a competitive situation.

Doug Cartel

da-bres wrote: »

Partly agree, although IMO it would greatly help in a competitive situation.

Which? Judo would help in a BJJ competition, or BJJ in a judo competition?

da-bres

It would benefit both, but I was speaking specifically about newaza for judo

Barry.Oglesby

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Nah I reckon with the rules these days a bjj player with great judo is gonna stand out more than a judoka with great newaze. These days especially in the gi top control is so important. Think a great example is jacre. Hes got world class judo and bjj. His judo stands much more to him in bjj than his bjj in judo.

Stand out as in win competitions, or stand out in highlight reels for those who don't really watch competitive BJJ much?

Doug Cartel

da-bres wrote: »

It would benefit both, but I was speaking specifically about newaza for judo

Do you compete in judo? I've found judo groundwork is typically all about finishing someone off after a bad throw, either as a follow up or a counter. Your opponent is down on a knee and hand, or whatever, so you roll him into a pin/sub quick as a flash. The referee won't let you play an extended game on the ground. No setting things up, no waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. A huge amount of what you would be doing in BJJ just isn't going to transfer over to competitive judo, just because of the way the rules are set up.

It could just be that by BJJ skills aren't high enough to make it work, but for the amount of time invested, I don't think my BJJ training has made a big difference to my competition style newaza.

Doug Cartel

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Stand out as in win competitions, or stand out in highlight reels for those who don't really watch competitive BJJ much?

I won't lie - my current ambition is to hit a tai-otoshi throw straight into an arm bar, Neil Adams style, and I want there to be a camera there.

arybvtcw0eolkf

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Nah I reckon with the rules these days a bjj player with great judo is gonna stand out more than a judoka with great newaze. These days especially in the gi top control is so important. Think a great example is jacre. Hes got world class judo and bjj. His judo stands much more to him in bjj than his bjj in judo.

I'd also add (and the risk of turning this into a willy size competition) that many, many Judoka would be very good on the ground as part of their judo without ever having trained in BJJ, but the same can not be said of a BJJ player having equally good take downs who has never trained in Judo.

In that regard, and its just my own opinion, I think Judo is a more complete style as it cover's both sides of the same coin.

As regards my comments re. MMA having big influence on BJJ. Its probably more accurate to say that a lot of people come to BJJ with no MA background because they think they're replicating what they see in (for example) the UFC without the nastiness of striking - ie, its safe.

I could probably repeat a hundred or more stories of young lads in work talking about BJJ and learning various techniques (always new to the game I might add) - I join in the chat and I'm told they're training MMA and that I should do a bit (apparently its good for bouncers ). After a few minutes the penny drops and they know I practice something.. Some have been members of boards.ie!

Its all good, its all martial arts.

FTA69

Doug Cartel wrote: »

It drives me nuts to see guys stuck in guard because the one on the bottom doesn't know how to do anything other than hold on, and the one on top doesn't know how to pass.

Ha! I've only just started BJJ and to be honest I've an awful habit of just trying to maintain guard on someone, especially if they're much bigger or more importantly much better than me. Perhaps it's just an ego thing where I'm afraid to put myself in a position of getting repeatedly subbed but it's certainly not conductive to developing one's grappling skill. Simply playing guard for as long as possible might be tempting in some situations, but it isn't going to achieve much for either you or your partner.

From now on I'm going to constantly attempt to apply subs or sweeps that I've picked off, regardless of the consequences and break the habit of counting subs etc.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I won't lie - my current ambition is to hit a tai-otoshi throw straight into an arm bar, Neil Adams style, and I want there to be a camera there.

Are you drilling it?.

Here's a Tai Otoshi for those wondering..

Anther thing about Judo on the ground.. There are no points awarded for position, passing guard, mounts etc.. Its either a submission via choke/strangle or joint lock, so if there's any inactivity many ref's will stand the fight up again.

And also, people associate Judo with big fancy throws, and it has those in abundance but of the five ways to win a Judo fight/competition four of those are on the ground via chokes/strangles - Joint locks & hold downs.

Some Judo newaza (ground work)

Back on topic.. As the learning curve in Judo can be pretty steep IMO it would make no sense an MMA fighter concentrating on Judo - unless a fighter concentrated on (for example) Uchimata and that alone it would take too long to take the Judo syllabus into the MMA arena.

Barry.Oglesby

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

I'd also add (and the risk of turning this into a willy size competition) that many, many Judoka would be very good on the ground as part of their judo without ever having trained in BJJ, but the same can not be said of a BJJ player having equally good take downs who has never trained in Judo.

In that regard, and its just my own opinion, I think Judo is a more complete style as it cover's both sides of the same coin.

I have to say I've never come across a judo player at black belt with the ground skills of a BJJ purple belt. That's not including guys who train both of course. I think it's just training styles. Some Judo clubs do a lot of newaza and some do very little. BJJ focuses almost 100% on the ground so I think you'd expect that they'd be better at that

I would say that very few BJJ guys have good judo, and I would question how important that is for BJJ competition ie. is it more important than learning a good sweeping or passing game? I'm not sure. My judo would be poor but I have reasonable single and double legs, so do a lot of BJJ players who do perfectly fine with no Judo in the strict sense.

Judo players with a lot of Judo "instincts" do tend to make some BJJ faux pas when rolling, like defending on their belly. Likewise, Judo guys can't understand BJJ players flopping to their arse when they're losing balance rather than looking for immediate reversals.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

My judo would be poor but I have reasonable single and double legs, so do a lot of BJJ players who do perfectly fine with no Judo in the strict sense.

And that is whats going to kill Judo!.

Last year single and double leg grabs were made so stupidly complicated by the IJF that all but the highest level competitors are drilling them.

When I train with BJJ lads it takes me a few minutes before I 'switch off' my Judo instincts and start sprawling, otherwise for the first few minutes I'm getting caught dopey.

'Butt flopping' - I use the term myself sometimes, is horrible for the spectator (for this one anyway) and I feel it should be banned because its overly passive - but again thats the Judo mentality at work whereby being passive is an offence.

Judo BB's with ground skills near to that of a competitive BJJ purple - I wouldn't know any that comes even close tbh.

Sid_Justice

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I have to say I've never come across a judo player at black belt with the ground skills of a BJJ purple belt..

I'd agree, this is very largely true of the people I've rolled with. However, there are judo black belts who wouldn't have the bjj skills of a purple belt would might beat a lot of purple belts in a bjj competition.

So yes, if you look at a judo guys ne-waza from a bjj point of view, you will see a lot of gaps. But usually good judo guys are good at a narrow range of things and sometimes this helps them to be successful in competitions

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I'd agree, this is very largely true of the people I've rolled with. However, there are judo black belts who wouldn't have the bjj skills of a purple belt would might beat a lot of purple belts in a bjj competition.

So yes, if you look at a judo guys ne-waza from a bjj point of view, you will see a lot of gaps. But usually good judo guys are good at a narrow range of things and sometimes this helps them to be successful in competitions

Good points, and that opens up the discussion a little.

Doug mentioned that he'd love a tai-otoshi which would lead to an armbar win for him - done properly all judo throws should land you in a dominant position, at least Ippon's (full point) should.

So in theory a well executed throw - think Andy Ryan in a BJJ competition - should pay very good dividends.

Doug Cartel

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

done properly all judo throws should lad you in a dominant position, at least Ippon's (full point) should.

That is probably the funniest thing I've read all week! Big emphasis on the "should" part of that statement. I'm all set to rant about the state of judo reffing now, but that's only going to take this way off topic.

EnjoyChoke

Maybe we should get the top Judo guys and the top BJJ guys in Ireland to fight in an "Irelands best" Gi only grappling competition with €1000 prize money and paying spectators to see who would win.

conor678

I find the banning of leg grabs in Judo real annoying and somewhat anti competitive. Coming from a BJJ background with a bit of wrestling I've started Judo and a really annoyed by the lack of leg grabs and how unrealistic it is in a real combat situation.

In this respect I think MMA has brought to light what works with TMA and what doesn't

Doug Cartel

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Maybe we should get the top Judo guys and the top BJJ guys in Ireland to fight in an "Irelands best" Gi only grappling competition with €1000 prize money and paying spectators to see who would win.

Let's FIGHT! (About the rules.)

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Maybe we should get the top Judo guys and the top BJJ guys in Ireland to fight in an "Irelands best" Gi only grappling competition with €1000 prize money and paying spectators to see who would win.

I bags Andy Ryan for my team - Team Judo

Doug Cartel

conor678 wrote: »

In this respect I think MMA has brought to light what works with TMA and what doesn't

In fairness, even if MMA wasn't around, people would be calling BS on that rule change. It's not popular.

Sid_Justice

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Maybe we should get the top Judo guys and the top BJJ guys in Ireland to fight in an "Irelands best" Gi only grappling competition with €1000 prize money and paying spectators to see who would win.

what rules would you use?

arybvtcw0eolkf

conor678 wrote: »

In this respect I think MMA has brought to light what works with TMA and what doesn't

TKD!...

Doug Cartel

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

TKD!...

Anthony Pettis has a 3rd dan in that...

EnjoyChoke

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

I bags Andy Ryan for my team - Team Judo

We need Andy to ref.

EnjoyChoke

Sid_Justice wrote: »

what rules would you use?

A class MMA.

whadabouchasir

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

TKD!...

Anderson silva has a TKD black belt too,it was also the first martial art he trained in!

Do you mean that TKD is useless in MMA or just useless altogether?or have I completely misunderstood you?

Sid_Justice

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

A class MMA.

gi only grappling a class mma. cool, i'd buy a ticket for that.

arybvtcw0eolkf

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Anderson silva has a TKD black belt too,it was also the first martial art he trained in!

Do you mean that TKD is useless in MMA or just useless altogether?or have I completely misunderstood you?

I was kidding.

It was a deadly K.O.

Doug Cartel

Sid_Justice wrote: »

gi only grappling a class mma. cool, i'd buy a ticket for that.

Are you talking about Kudo?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ

In a gi, headbuts and shots in the goolies are legal and you get to wear a class space helmet.

whadabouchasir

Evelyn Orange Lamb wrote: »

I was kidding.

It was a deadly K.O.

Sorry!It's just that TKD bashing seems to be all the rage these days especially with MMA fans. I regularly hear crap such as "It's not practical" or "It would never work in MMA" or "It looks good but it would never work." If you're going to put down TKD or any martial art then at least train in it first to see what it's actually like.

Doug Cartel

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people on this thread had started off in TKD.

Barry.Oglesby

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Maybe we should get the top Judo guys and the top BJJ guys in Ireland to fight in an "Irelands best" Gi only grappling competition with €1000 prize money and paying spectators to see who would win.

Don't

****ing

Tempt

Me.

Already an Ireland's best nogi coming up. I think I'll have my hands full with that.

Chris89

In my very limited experience, the only ground game judo players bring to a bjj match is relentlessy trying to get your arm between their legs to shoulder lock you from that judo side control thing, no idea of the technical terms.

Massive generalization i know, but its not the first one in this thread!!

Would love to see that all ireland comp though, although wouldn't the judo players advantage be completely neutralized by a simple guard pull?

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

In my very limited experience, the only ground game judo players bring to a bjj match is relentlessy trying to get your arm between their legs to shoulder lock you from that judo side control thing, no idea of the technical terms.

That's ashi-ude-garami from kesa gatame. I've never been able to do that one.

Barry.Oglesby

Doug Cartel wrote: »

That's ashi-ude-garami from kesa gatame. I've never been able to do that one.

I know it's all just phonetically interpreted but I always thought it was keza gatame?