question re Irish in schools

metrovelvet

Ok, its coming up to the time where I have to think about schools, not immediately but soon.

It is my impression that most Irish people get 12 years of Irish in school, for an hour a day I think, and not that many people can speak it, so it looks to me like the teaching is so bad, its a horrendous waste of time, and much better things could be done with that hour a day.

So what would happen if you skipped Irish all through school and then just spent a summer in the galetacht when you were 17 or whatever the age is that people normally go and then used that hour a day for something more productive?

Joey the lips

At the moment you cannot skip irish.

At not personally attacking you but if you think its a waste of time why dont you encourage its use at home.

Far better to have your child using it then loosing it.

Irish is now a reconised european language so if your child has it along with say french and obv english then s/he is half way to a job in the EU govt.

If they so choose.

Neyite

I think Irish is still compulsory. It was when I was in school, along with English and Maths. Its because its not used daily that people cant speak it properly or forget it eventually.

Also, some of the Civil /Public service have ability to speak/read Irish as a requirement for entry.

metrovelvet

I cant encourage its use at home because I don't speak it myself.

Im not saying its a waste of time, but how its taught is a waste of time. So isnt it worthwhile to skip it and then just go to the gaeltacht for the summer? Isnt that far more efficient?

January

You can't though unfortunately, Irish is compulsory in all Primary and Secondary schools unless you are from a foreign speaking country coming into the school system or you have an exemption from it due to dyslexia or another special need.

On second thought I'm also going to move this to Primary and Pre-School as you'll get more informed answers there from this question.

Lola92

I'm not quite sure what you mean there metro? There isn't really a choice to be made. For now Irish is a mandatory subject in both primary and secondary school.

Speaking from my own personal experience I hated Irish all throughout primary school (in a regular English speaking national school). I became more interested in first year due to my teacher who was a native of the Connemara gaeltacht and spent 2 weeks in Irish college the following summer. I was hooked and still am. I returned each year and following that as a member of staff teaching water sports.

I think the reason people "can't speak" Irish is because of lack of practice. The majority of Irish in junior schools is vocab, basic grammar excercises & verbs, constructing simple WRITTEN sentences etc. In theory it's a reasonable basis to learn any language, but unless a child (or anyone for that matter) get an opportunity to practice conversation they won't be able to speak it.

With regard to just going to the gaeltacht aged 17, I don't think that would help much on its own. You need the basics from school IMO

yawha

metrovelvet wrote: »

I cant encourage its use at home because I don't speak it myself.

Im not saying its a waste of time, but how its taught is a waste of time. So isnt it worthwhile to skip it and then just go to the gaeltacht for the summer? Isnt that far more efficient?

Perhaps, but it would be illegal to do so. It's not like religion where you can opt your child out of the class.

thehamo

its a matter of getting the children inspired to learn it. Very hard when there is little or no support for the language at home. Primary school is all about getting them to learn new grammar/vocab, sentence strucure etc. same as in other languages, only difference being English is spoken every day from morning til bed time, thus more practice.

, take the foreign national kids for example. Very frustrating to take them out for English language lessons, they look at you like its double dutch and then go home only to speak their parents native language again. Its a matter of using the language. If this was done there would be no problems learning Irish in school.

In my own personal opinion, if we really want an Irish revival, all primary schools should be taught through Irish, and choice can be made for secondary school.

thehamo

also...... the hour that is set aside for Irish teaching is for formal instruction. Any school worth its salt will have Irish permeating through the whole school, and much more than the formal hours instruction would be used through out the whole day. Formal structure is needed in order to know the informal language throughout the day.

I personally do P.E. and ART through irish where possible. Its about using the language outside of its boundaries.

E.T.

We can do Irish til it's coming out their ears in school, but when it's not seen or heard outside school it's very difficult to make it stick. I love Irish, love teaching it, love seeing how much the kids enjoy learning it. You can really tell the kids whose parents practise it with them at home (we send home phrases with phonetic sounding and translation), they get so much enjoyment out of it.

byhookorbycrook

When I first came up from Munster to Leinster, I found a big attitude against Irish, seen as a waste of time. I did like Thehamo suggested, "nice" stuff through Irish and lots of incidental irish throughout the day. As the children began to enjoy Irish more and find it easier, the parents began to look at Irish in a different way.

seriouslysweet

I was not brought up in Ireland and have an official exemption but am still doing it for my LC, my parents promoted it in a positive light and our teacher this year could teach Irish to a stone, she's amazing. A lot of it has to do with the attitude from home in my opinion.

Moonbeam

I have to disagree and I am an ok irish speaker.
I feel the way it is thought in many schools is awful.

If you send your children to irish speaking schools they will come out fluent I would not see having 2 languages fluent at a very young age to be a waste of any ones time.

Aoifums

You wouldn't be able to pick Irish up from three weeks in the Gaeltacht. People come back with improved Irish, not magnificant Irish. It will still be compulsory in your kids' school.
It's fourteen years. While I have less than adaquate Irish, I can still hold a conversation. It may not last once I leave school but some of it should stick with me.

Ayla

Perhaps what's the crucial question here is "why are children taking Irish for 12 years and finishing school with barely a passing/conversational ability?" Yes, I completely agree that parental/societal interest must support the school lessons, but if the children aren't getting it naturally, then maybe society needs to ask if continuing 12 years of a subject should be madatory.

The Irish language is a large facet of Irish culture & history, and it should be respected as such, but I personally don't see it featuring in Ireland's future. Unless you live in the Gaeltacht, the primary use for the language now is either (1) politics or (2) teaching. Perhaps its time for society to examine why our pupils are required to undergo 12 years of lessons when the overwhelming majority of the students will never use the knowledge again after school.

Bride2012

14 years of it. Well Fine Gael are talking about making it optional and are getting a lot of backlash. I heard before that the best way to ensure that Irish is spoken is to make it illegal

silverharp

apologies for resurrecting an older thread but just to add that in my son's school they dont start Irish until 4th or 5th class. apparently they get good results to boot. the novelty factor seems to work

ShamoBuc

silverharp wrote: »

apologies for resurrecting an older thread but just to add that in my son's school they dont start Irish until 4th or 5th class. apparently they get good results to boot. the novelty factor seems to work

:eek: What kind of a school is that if you don't mind me asking.

Given that it is in the curriculum from Junior Infants onwards - few hours a week - I am shocked by what you say.

silverharp

ShamoBuc wrote: »

:eek: What kind of a school is that if you don't mind me asking.

Given that it is in the curriculum from Junior Infants onwards - few hours a week - I am shocked by what you say.

St. Killians in clonskeagh , to be fair they focus on German in Kindergarten onwards.

ShamoBuc

silverharp wrote: »

St. Killians in clonskeagh , to be fair they focus on German in Kindergarten onwards.

That explains it, they are a fee paying German private school.

thesimpsons

Its sad the amount of times I've heard parents tell kids not to worry about bad marks in their weekly Irish spelling tests, the attitude from alot of homes is that its not worth bothering with. I've had kids whose parents didn't even bother buying the irish workbooks from the booklist - they keep "forgetting" to buy it. With attitudes like that, its always going to be hard to get students to appreciate any sbuject and the value of education. 2 of my kids went to an english primary and transferred to gaelcholaiste for secondary and are flying it. It was their own choices completely and once they made the choice we fully supported it and took parents' classes oursleves.

am I right in thinking private primaries can follow any curriculum they decide on themselves. I know they aren't subject to the same opening hours as state primaries either. The local fee paying primary kids have been off school since end of May, and not back till Sept.

byhookorbycrook

Spelling tests should be abolished, they serve no purpose whatsoever-a whole different debate.

thesimpsons

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Spelling tests should be abolished, they serve no purpose whatsoever-a whole different debate.

why should they be abolished? how does a child write a sentence or put an essay together if they can't spell a word ? But that aside, the attitude that any learning doesn't matter needs to be addressed if you want to encourage and promote education as a whole.

E.T.

There are better ways of getting kids to learn spellings than making them face a test. I get the kids in my class to learn their spellings by writing them in sentences regularly as we learn them. The traditional test tells very little - the more able kids are going to get most of them right, the average kids will get average marks, and the kids who aren't able for spellings are going to have their confidence knocked. Getting them all to put them in sentences gives meaning to the spellings and the children can all write the sentences at their own level, so they're benefitting more from the work.

Ayla

Not to pull this thread off topic, but E.T., that same argument could be used for any standardised test. Any time a group of kids has to take a maths or geography test, anytime there is a question asked with a specific answer expected, it will marginalize students. I appreciate (and completely agree with) how you're "testing" spelling through writing, but surely that same logic should then follow through into all subjects? Learning through doing, not regurgitating.

byhookorbycrook

going to start a new thread on spelling tests.

chatterbox123

I think the teaching of Irish really needs a serious overhaul! My son has just completed the junior cert., is quite clever and got 80% in his mock irish exam without being able to understand the paper! Also, in this day and age when we are trying to encourage students into third level science courses etc why oh why did he have two and a half hours of a science exam and over double that time for irish. That's crazy!