Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

Mr. Rabbit

All the BBC and ITV channels are available free on satellite and have been for years.

Exactly Mark.

Freesat equipment is widely available.

touts

MarkK wrote: »

RTE carries advertising, so it's worth their while being on three transmitters in NI.

All the BBC and ITV channels are available free on satellite and have been for years.

And the second half of my sentence that you left out acknowledged that. However for a lot of people the cost of getting a satellite dish and either dedicated sat box or a combi box and have it all installed is too much for them to afford. Already the government expects them to buy boxes before october. For many people €50 is a lot to find to continue to get rte and the government securing additional UK channels in these negotiations would have been a nice gesture of giving something back in a time of relentless take take take by the state.

MarkK

touts wrote: »

...the government securing additional UK channels in these negotiations would have been a nice gesture of giving something back in a time of relentless take take take by the state.

What is the bargaining chip which could have been used to get the British Government to pay for us to have the BBC on Saorview?
Threaten to withhold RTE? I'm sure they would care:P

It has already been agreed that the BBC can broadcast in the Republic the gap is who will pay for it.

RTE is going on just three transmitters in NI.
Saorview uses over 50 transmitters, so it would cost significantly more to put the BBC on Saorview.

It hard to justify the cost of putting a much cut down version of the BBC on Saorview, when it's already available free by other means.
A DTT version of the BBC may be forced to blackout some programming, this already happens for RTE viewers in NI on Cable and Sky.
Plus the free BBC on Satellite gives access to far more channels and services that could ever go on Saorview.
For example there will be 24 HD BBC Olympic channels.

As for the cost of equipment, an old Sky box and dish will do the job, there are plenty of them around, you don't need to buy a new Freesat box.

Freeview viewers in NI will not be able to get RTE on ordinary Freeview boxes, they will need a Freeview HD box and may need two aerials.

The Cush

touts wrote: »

If the BBC aren't willing to pay to have their service in the Republic who is paying to have RTE in Northern Ireland.

RTÉ will pay the multiplex, distribution and transmission costs for its 2 TV channels (1 radio channel?) on the NI mini-mux while the UK government will pay TG4 costs, approx one-third of the overall cost as part of its commitment to the Good Friday agreement.

lawhec

There is also the case of public service broadcasting missions - RTÉ since the days of Radio Éireann starting up has always attempted to provide coverage to all 32 counties where it is practical to do so; it is no coincidence that there are several RTÉNL mid to high powered transmission sites near the border. Clermont Carn has always been less about duplicating services for most people in Louth, Meath and parts of Dublin served by Kippure or Three Rock and more to do extending reach into many parts of Northern Ireland particularly east of the Bann - Holywell Hill looks over Derry city, Truskmore includes large parts of NI west of the Bann in it's coverage etc. and this mini mux will allow further coverage for core RTÉ services particularly in Belfast. TG4 has always had similar aims which was cemented with the Good Friday Agreement, they already have a low-powered relay at Divis to serve part of Belfast city and again this mini mux will solidify that aim.

On the other hand, the BBCs charter only allows it to serve residents of the UK for its domestic services; they have otherwise external services for those outside of it. Viewers in the Republic of Ireland are in a fortunate position where domestic BBC services can be viewed thanks to terrestrial overspill in about 1/3 of the country, or being within the main spot beam for domestic BBC services on satellite at 28 East. Technically there's little the BBC can do about this and just accept it as incidental, but they do ensure that cable companies relaying their broadcasts pay respective retransmission rights fees, along with billing Sky for putting its broadcasts on to the southern EPG.

ardmacha

For many people €50 is a lot to find to continue to get rte and the government securing additional UK channels in these negotiations would have been a nice gesture of giving something back in a time of relentless take take take by the state.

The State is not taking anywhere near enough, it is running a large deficit. To suggest that it borrow further money (from Britain among others) to subsidise British television is a truly astonishing proposition.

Digifriendly

Concerning 'black out' of sporting events on RTE via Sky in NI, unfortunately RTE2's highlights of ROI's soccer friendly last Saturday was 'blacked out'. Strange decision as recent 'Premier Soccer Saturday' programmes on RTE2 have been 'in the clear' as well as live CL matches on RTE2.

Mr. Rabbit

Digifriendly wrote: »

Concerning 'black out' of sporting events on RTE via Sky in NI, unfortunately RTE2's highlights of ROI's soccer friendly last Saturday was 'blacked out'. Strange decision as recent 'Premier Soccer Saturday' programmes on RTE2 have been 'in the clear' as well as live CL matches on RTE2.

Thank goodness for Saorsat

Digifriendly

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Thank goodness for Saorsat

And Saorview and until late October RTE2 on analogue!

Rick_

So will the versions of RTÉ on Freeview be the restricted versions like those on Sky?

Won't matter to me, I'll continue to receive the full service with all the channels from Clermont, but just thought I'd ask.

lawhec

Frequencies confirmed on Digital UK checker...

Brougher Mountain E30- 1kW
Black Mountain E39+ 2kW
Carnmoney Hill E48 16W

Interestingly according to the checker, the technical parameters will now be DVB-T2 32K QPSK 2/3 - will mean less capacity than the planned 16QAM 1/2 but signal should be more robust. I'll need to crunch the figures in a moment.

Edit - this reduces capacity to approx 10Mbps (enough to carry 3-4 MPEG4 SD channels anyway plus associated audio and data channels) but compared to 16QAM 1/2 will give a 2.7db better carrier to noise ratio, requiring a C/N of 4.9db compared to 20.3 for the HD (BBCB) multiplex. At a very rough estimation, this should (allowing of interference) allow the Mini Mux to be received compared to the HD Mux with around 1/35 of the signal?

MarkK

Just been trying the DigitalUK checked for a few places.

Got a surprising result for Brougher Mountain reception in Enniskillen.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/main/trade/BT74+7HL/NA/0/NA

For the commercial muxes, reception is predicted to be worse after switchover, despite the signal power being increased from 500w to 2kw
Worst being Mux D going from 90 to 33.
What's the story here? Co-channel interference from nearby?

lawhec

MarkK wrote: »

Just been trying the DigitalUK checked for a few places.

Got a surprising result for Brougher Mountain reception in Enniskillen.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/main/trade/BT74+7HL/NA/0/NA

For the commercial muxes, reception is predicted to be worse after switchover, despite the signal power being increased from 500w to 2kw
Worst being Mux D going from 90 to 33.
What's the story here? Co-channel interference from nearby?

COM muxs from Brougher Mountain will share the same frequencies as PSB muxs from Divis after switch over. This is why they are being restricted to 2kW ERP (instead of normal practice of half the PSB power i.e. 10kW) to reduce interference to reception of PSB multiplexes from Divis.

zg3409

MarkK wrote: »

reception is predicted to be worse after switchover, despite the signal power being increased from 500w to 2kw
Worst being Mux D going from 90 to 33.
What's the story here? Co-channel interference from nearby?

It seems to be more to do with the transmission type being changed. Yes the output power is going from 500w to 2K. This is 4 times the power. This is a 6dB increase. However 6dB is not much in the greater scheme of things. 99% of people would notice no difference.

However they are changing the settings of the multiplex. The less error correction, the higher the speed etc. the more signal your TV requires.

So for example Mux D

Before 16QAM 3/4 2K
After 64QAM 3/4 8K

So instead of the TV having to decide which of the 16 levels are currently sent, it has 64 to choose from. Thus it needs a better signal. A bit like teletext needs a very good signal to work properly.

From here:
http://www.comtech-tw.com.tw/pdf/mdasl-2165f2.pdf

8K 16QAM 3/4 14.6 dB
8K 64QAM 3/4 27.6 dB

So the TV needs 13dB more signal, but transmitter power is only going up by 6dB. I am not sure what effect 2K (2000) carriers vs 8K (8000) carriers has. but here:
http://www.iaeng.org/publication/IMECS2012/IMECS2012_pp391-395.pdf

According to simulation it is found that 2k modes are less
prone to errors

lawhec

zg3409 wrote: »

It seems to be more to do with the transmission type being changed. Yes the output power is going from 500w to 2K. This is 4 times the power. This is a 6dB increase. However 6dB is not much in the greater scheme of things. 99% of people would notice no difference.

However they are changing the settings of the multiplex. The less error correction, the higher the speed etc. the more signal your TV requires.

So for example Mux D

Before 16QAM 3/4 2K
After 64QAM 3/4 8K

So instead of the TV having to decide which of the 16 levels are currently sent, it has 64 to choose from. Thus it needs a better signal. A bit like teletext needs a very good signal to work properly.

From here:
http://www.comtech-tw.com.tw/pdf/mdasl-2165f2.pdf

8K 16QAM 3/4 14.6 dB
8K 64QAM 3/4 27.6 dB

So the TV needs 13dB more signal, but transmitter power is only going up by 6dB. I am not sure what effect 2K (2000) carriers vs 8K (8000) carriers has. but here:
http://www.iaeng.org/publication/IMECS2012/IMECS2012_pp391-395.pdf

According to this calculator I use, the C/N difference is 4.9db (18.1db vs. 23.0db), not 13db. Even the current UTV/C4 and SDN multiplexes with 2K 64QAM 2/3 only requires a C/N of 20.3db. In theory is should mean that for the COM multiplexes there would be not effective change in coverage but interference from Divis will mean otherwise. In Britain where many of the post-DSO transmitter sites have seen this COM multiplex parameter change, there's been very few reported complaints of reception being lost.

As for 2k vs. 8k, 8k is more fragile for mobile reception because it does not cope as well with Doppler shift at 2k does, but for fixed reception this should not be a problem where 8k can cope better with multipath interference from reflections at non-near (<2km) objects, where the linked report didn't take any multipath interference into account.

reslfj

zg3409 wrote: »

It seems to be more to do with the transmission type being changed. Yes the output power is going from 500w to 2K. This is 4 times the power. This is a 6dB increase. However 6dB is not much in the greater scheme of things. 99% of people would notice no difference.

So for example Mux D
Before 16QAM 3/4 2K
After 64QAM 3/4 8K

So instead of the TV having to decide which of the 16 levels are currently sent, it has 64 to choose from. Thus it needs a better signal. A bit like teletext needs a very good signal to work properly.
http://www.comtech-tw.com.tw/pdf/mdasl-2165f2.pdf

8K 16QAM 3/4 14.6 dB
8K 64QAM 3/4 27.6 dB

If you will quote - then quote correctly and use proper official sources. The figures are from a product spec. not from sources like the ETSI 300 744 standard (full standard via DVB.ORG), the D-Book or from the Nordig.org spec.

For a Ricean channel (LOS) the C/N requirement increases from 13.4dB to 18.9dB or a 5.5 dB weaker signal. For a Rayleigh channel (indirect reception) the figures are 18.1dB to 23dB or 4.9dB weaker (as also quoted by lawhec above).

In addition you quote data for an AGWN 16-QAM 3/4 channel, while the 64-QAM 3/4 channel is data from a 0dB echo channel - (two SFN signals of being received at equal power). :mad:

zg3409 wrote: »

I am not sure what effect 2K (2000) carriers vs 8K (8000) carriers has. but here: 'IMECS2012_pp391-395'

Use proper sources, this paper - while I will read it again - has very strange conclusions and is not from the core DVB technical community.

The 2k and 8k mode has identical robustness in normal static channels, as long as all multipath delays are within the guard interval (7 ms for the 2k mode and 28ms for the 8k mode as used in the UK).
The 8k mode is, however, up to 6dB more robust for impulse noise - e.g electrical sparks. This last statement was validated by the DTG in the UK around 2004/05 - AFAIR.

Lars

The Brougher Mountain COM muxes will - as soon as your aerial is above the mountains - get a little (to much) signal from Divis. The C/N for error free reception must be well above ~ 20dB (= 100 times). A 100kW 'noise' signal from Divis (110 km bearing 73) and a 2kW wanted signal from Brougher M (15 km bearing 59) will in free space have more like the same signal level. The bearing is within 16 deg. Turning your aerial a little ~15-25 deg to the north of BM may help.

I think - but do not know - Divis may be restricted a little in the direction of Brougher Mountain. Could this be - Rowridge like - a case for an additional Vertical TX antenne at Brougher Mountain ? Or even just a Vertical TX antenne in the SW direction ?

lawhec

reslfj wrote: »

The Brougher Mountain COM muxes will - as soon as your aerial is above the mountains - get a little (to much) signal from Divis. The C/N for error free reception must be well above ~ 20dB (= 100 times). A 100kW 'noise' signal from Divis (110 km bearing 73) and a 2kW wanted signal from Brougher M (15 km bearing 59) will in free space have more like the same signal level. The bearing is within 16 deg. Turning your aerial a little ~15-25 deg to the north of BM may help.

I think - but do not know - Divis may be restricted a little in the direction of Brougher Mountain. Could this be - Rowridge like - a case for an additional Vertical TX antenne at Brougher Mountain ? Or even just a Vertical TX antenne in the SW direction ?

It's not just parts of Enniskillen that has this co-channel problem - large parts of the main Brougher Mountain service area are affected including parts of Omagh, Mid Tyrone and South Tyrone. A lot is dependent on terrain shielding at the reception site from Brougher and/or Divis.

As an example, my grandparents in the Sperrins (Greencastle) can get all six current multiplexes from Brougher though Mux 2 and A (the 64QAM muxs) are right on the fringe with occasional break up, with an unamplified 18 element Group A - Digital UK says that at present only "poor" reception of the 16QAM multiplexes is predicted. After 24th October, It gives "good" reception from Brougher for the PSB and NIMM multiplexes (98/99) but nothing for the commercial muxs; For Divis, nothing for the PSB multiplexes but "variable" (18/84) reception for the commercial multiplexes and "good" reception of PSB multiplexes (98/99) from Strabane. Taking all of this into account, ideally if co-channel interference is not shown to be a big problem on aerial trained on Brougher then it might be fine for all seven multiplexes if Saorview isn't required - but if it does prove to be a problem, one solution might be to diplex two aerials together for Strabane for the PSB's and Divis for the COM's, though this leaves RTÉ reception out; the best current analogue RTÉ signal currently comes from Clermont Carn so 3 into 1 for all services might be needed.

What may also help in some situations is to carefully position an aerial aimed at Brougher where part of the building or chimney is used to shield the aerial from Divis. An attic aerial in this case might be surprisingly effective if it doesn't attenuate the wanted Brougher signal too much.

Divis as far as I'm aware is licensed for an omnidirectional radiation pattern.

A "Rowridge" solution of using both polarisations I suppose is another option, but I reckon Arqiva guessed the cost of installing a dual polarisation system for the amount of viewers Brougher would reach wouldn't be worth it, sadly. Another alternative would be for the COM multiplexes to be changed to 23, 26 & 29, with co-channel from Divis being 3db less though there is potential interference from Holywell Hill (RTÉNL have made no indication that they'll use these three frequencies post analogue switch off yet, but are allocated them) but I remember an Arqiva document stating that these would need an ERP of 10kW to reach Omagh for some reason, which might cause problems with COM reception from Divis in parts of its service area. All in all a fine balancing act to handle.

reslfj

I think someone need to move the BBCB (HD mux) i Larne to another channel (or change the digitaluk database) - unlikely to receive two muxes on channel 39 -

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/main/trade/bt40+1as/NA/0/NA

Lars

lawhec

reslfj wrote: »

I think someone need to move the BBCB (HD mux) i Larne to another channel (or change the digitaluk database) - unlikely to receive two muxes on channel 39 -

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/main/trade/bt40+1as/NA/0/NA

Lars

The Black Mountain NIMM apparently is directional between 1kW to 2kW, it's possible that a 1kW 'null' is directed towards Larne, difference in polarity (Black Mountain will almost certainly be horizontally polarised or mabye mixed for the RTÉ Mux) and terrain might provide enough isolation.

Just noticed that the ERP for the RTÉ Mux from Brougher Mountain is now 1kW when it was planned to be 2kW - possibly it's to reduce co-channel allocations with Holywell Hill (Saorview 1st mux already broadcasting) and a local TV allocation assigned for Divis?

reslfj

lawhec wrote: »

The Black Mountain NIMM apparently is directional between 1kW to 2kW, it's possible that a 1kW 'null' is directed towards Larne, difference in polarity...

No - This is an error.

Digitaluk lists both muxes as green and this is very far from possible.

Lars

lawhec

reslfj wrote: »

No - This is an error.

Digitaluk lists both muxes as green and this is very far from possible.

Lars

Just clicked on the link now - it's strange all right. Will probably be updated in due course.

Speaking of which, the predicted coverage of Killowen Mountain must surely be a mistake as it acts as it is only really an active deflector to give Kilkeel an off-air feed.

reslfj

lawhec wrote: »

Just clicked on the link now - it's strange all right. Will probably be updated in due course.

It is Ofocm spectrum - it should be listed in Ofcom's lists already - IMHO.

Killowen Mountain is very OT here - I have looked at it more times, and maybe it is useful for some few viewers where Kilkeel is behind a hill/mountain.

The ROI channels will come across the border in this part of NI, and 2kW ch 39+ will likely remain north of the mountains.

I still think the mode should have been 16-QAM CR=1/2 - 2.7-2.8 dB higher ERP would have added 50% more capacity (10 vs 15 Mbps)

Lars

marno21

lawhec wrote: »

Speaking of which, the predicted coverage of Killowen Mountain must surely be a mistake as it acts as it is only really an active deflector to give Kilkeel an off-air feed.

I was thinking the same thing. Aside from the fact that it's cochannel with Divis, 5 watts over 87km looks a bit of a stretch too

Mr. Rabbit

Speaking of which, the predicted coverage of Killowen Mountain must surely be a mistake as it acts as it is only really an active deflector to give Kilkeel an off-air feed

.

When I type in my postcode on Digital UK, Killowen mountain (along with the 5 watt relay at Black Mountain) is one of the alternative transmitters at my address. Reception is listed as variable, which is utter nonsense.

Newcastle maybe (I get weak reception on analogue) but Killowen Mountain is stretching it a bit.

I have a feeling the NIMM from Black Mountain might not be all that great here (those couple of miles further east do make a difference), but there's always Carnmoney Hill and Clermont Carn when it increases power (160 kw should be great after 24th October).

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

RTÉ, yesterday, published the tender for the provision of multiplexing and distribution services and/or broadcast transmission services for its Northern Ireland mini-mux.

http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV287941

- Joint Venture (JV) company to be established
Northern Ireland (N.I.) Multiplex Company Ltd. (a joint venture to be established between RTÉ and TG4)
Murray House, Murray Street
Belfast BT1 6DN

- Two lots
Lot 1 - Multiplexing and distribution services to 2 sites for RTÉ1 & 2, TG4. Future radio service and maybe one extra TV channel.
Lot 2 - Broadcast transmission of a multiplex from 3 sites (one relay) in Northern Ireland

- Duration of contracts - 12 years

- Invitations to tender starts - 13 Jan 2012
- Award of Contract - 29 Mar 2012

- Sites
1. Brougher Mountain (1kW ERP)
2. Black Mountain (Max 2kW ERP – min 1kW ERP); and
3. Carnmoney Hill (16W ERP). [/I]

Officially confirmed - Arqiva awarded multiplexing, distribution and transmission contract for the NI mini-mux.

Contract awarded 24th May. Only 1 bidder for the 2 lots.

There may be a future requirement to carry a radio channel but the plan to carry an extra TV channel on the mini-mux has been removed.

I.4)Contract award on behalf of other contracting authorities

The contracting authority is purchasing on behalf of other contracting authorities: yes

Northern Ireland (N.I.) Multiplex Company Ltd (a joint venture established between RTÉ and TG4)
BT1 6DN
Belfast
UNITED KINGDOM

Short description of the contract or purchase(s)

In February 2010, the UK and Irish Governments signed a memorandum of understanding which gives effect to terms of the Belfast and St. Andrews agreements with respect to the extension of coverage of TG4, and latterly RTÉ One and RTÉ Two, throughout Northern Ireland.

RTÉ (acting on behalf of a joint venture company (Northern Ireland (N.I.) Multiplex Company Ltd.) established by RTÉ and TG4, Ireland's public service broadcasters) entered into a competitive dialogue procedure with interested and suitably qualified companies for the supply, installation, operation, support and maintenance of broadcasting, distribution and transmission services of RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 within Northern Ireland over a twelve (12) year period. There may be a requirement for carriage of a radio service.

The requirements under this procurement were split into the following 2 lots:

Lot 1:

Multiplexing and distribution.

Creation of a multiplex including RTÉ One, RTÉ Two, and TG4 with distribution to 2 transmission sites in Northern Ireland. There may be a requirement for carriage of a radio service.

Lot 2:

Broadcast transmission.

Broadcast transmission of a multiplex from 3 sites (one relay) in Northern Ireland.

Section V: Award of contract

Lot No: 1 - Lot title: Multiplexing and Distribution Services.

V.1)Date of contract award decision:
24.5.2012

V.2)Information about offers
Number of offers received: 1
Number of offers received by electronic means: 1

V.3)Name and address of economic operator in favour of whom the contract award decision has been taken

Arqiva Limited
Crawley Court Winchester Hampshire
SO21 2QA
Winchester
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel. +44 1962823434

...

Lot No: 2 - Lot title: Broadcast transmission services.

V.1)Date of contract award decision:
24.5.2012

V.2)Information about offers
Number of offers received: 1
Number of offers received by electronic means: 1

V.3)Name and address of economic operator in favour of whom the contract award decision has been taken

Arqiva Limited
Crawley Court Winchester
SO21 2QA
Winchester
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel. +44 1962823434

VI.2)Additional information:

There is no longer a requirement for the carriage of a further television service under Lot 1.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Interestingly according to the checker, the technical parameters will now be DVB-T2 32K QPSK 2/3 - will mean less capacity than the planned 16QAM 1/2 but signal should be more robust. I'll need to crunch the figures in a moment.

Edit - this reduces capacity to approx 10Mbps (enough to carry 3-4 MPEG4 SD channels anyway plus associated audio and data channels) but compared to 16QAM 1/2 will give a 2.7db better carrier to noise ratio, requiring a C/N of 4.9db compared to 20.3 for the HD (BBCB) multiplex. At a very rough estimation, this should (allowing of interference) allow the Mini Mux to be received compared to the HD Mux with around 1/35 of the signal?

The original plan when the mini-mux was announced back in Dec 2010 was QPSK 5/6, that changed to 16 QAM 1/2 (DTG 164) in Apr 2011. The extra capacity is no longer required as the mini-mux will only carry the 3 TV and 1 future radio channels (a planned 4th TV channel will no longer be carried). Not sure if it will carry Digital Aertel?

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Just noticed that the ERP for the RTÉ Mux from Brougher Mountain is now 1kW when it was planned to be 2kW - possibly it's to reduce co-channel allocations with Holywell Hill (Saorview 1st mux already broadcasting) and a local TV allocation assigned for Divis?

The RTÉ tender document listed it as 1kW last Nov, the first and only place I saw the ERPs listed for the 3 sites. Black Mt was listed as max 2kW ERP – min 1kW ERP.

Peter Rhea

lawhec wrote: »

. . . the predicted coverage of Killowen Mountain must surely be a mistake as it acts as it is only really an active deflector to give Kilkeel an off-air feed.

That's a longstanding anomaly in the checker, I had my own bit of daft speculation about it a while back & finally accepted it was just a mistake . . .

mrdtv2010

Note that the coverage of Black Mountain E39 RTE minimux will be clipped in November 2012 along the East and South Down coasts as Moel-y-Parc D3+4 multiplex is moving to that frequency as part of the 800Mhz clearance programme. MyP can already be received in South and East Down.

Mr. Rabbit

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Note that the coverage of Black Mountain E39 RTE minimux will be clipped in November 2012 along the East and South Down coasts as Moel-y-Parc D3+4 multiplex is moving to that frequency as part of the 800Mhz clearance programme. MyP can already be received in South and East Down.

Along the Ards peninsula I've noticed there are quite a lot of aerials for Clermont Carn, even in places such as Donaghadee, Millisle, and Ballywalter.

I would imagine the likes of Holywood and Bangor should get adequate reception from Carnmoney Hill if Black Mountain is difficult.

Newcastle could be a real blackspot.