Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

Mr. Rabbit

Three Rock & Kippure are both supposedly at 63 kW

I stand corrected then, but it does seem strange for two DTT transmitters with such high ERPs and similar coverage to be so close together.

It should be pretty obvious by now that RTENL have taken a different approach to the UK with regard to coverage from main sites (by this I mean a greater use of overlap between service areas, so a high powered site can fill gaps in its neighbours' coverage, way it seems to me anyway) & eliminating as many of the smaller ones as possible, it's the most striking aspect of the whole switchover process.

Yep, that would indeed appear to be the case.

Peter Rhea

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I stand corrected then, but it does seem strange for two DTT transmitters with such high ERPs and similar coverage to be so close together.

They don't have similar coverage, it's why Three Rock was put there in the 1st place.

lawhec

There can be (actually quite often) a difference between the radiation pattern licensed for a transmission site and the actual radiation pattern in use. This probably explains why northwards radiation of analogue UHF TV from Clermont Carn is slightly less than 3db down on peak power especially if aerial configurations have to comply to a null in NE and E directions.

As for Dublin, only Three Rock covers the city & county anything close to total coverage. Clermont Carn is received best in southern parts of the county but isn't reliable elsewhere, Kippure has always had reception problems in the south of the city - that's why RTÉ had a low power relay at Donnybrook until Three Rock was brought into service, and Mt. Leinster's path into the city is well blocked by the Wicklow Mountains. Also, Ireland geography at the western edge of Europe means that international frequency co-ordination is less problematic for UHF frequencies (only the UK and maybe France would need to be sought in some cases) meaning that higher transmission powers can be employed.

Souriau

Are there any work going on at Divis as my Freeview is going off and on a few times today.
I never lost Freeview from Divis before til today but analouge is still transmitting
I checked with Digiair Pro meter and see there is a total lost of power on all MUXs.
Anyone else expereicene lost of Digital channels from Divis today?
Spectrum scan show just analouge and no digital transmission

Ronnie Raygun

BBC reception lists a couple of short outages, mentioned on ukfree as well.

Ronnie Raygun

lawhec wrote: »

There can be (actually quite often) a difference between the radiation pattern licensed for a transmission site and the actual radiation pattern in use. This probably explains why northwards radiation of analogue UHF TV from Clermont Carn is slightly less than 3db down on peak power especially if aerial configurations have to comply to a null in NE and E directions.

Can understand real conditions might be a different matter than figures on a spreadsheet, it's just interesting to probe people on these matters, I suppose.

Elmo

So the Competition Authority are preventing RTÉ and TG4 from aiming advertising at the NI market? yet they agree that local NI channels won't really be disrupted by such competition, due to local tastes?

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

So the Competition Authority are preventing RTÉ and TG4 from aiming advertising at the NI market?

Not correct, nothing to do with the Competition Authority. Broadcasting rights issue between broadcaster and content owner.

From the Competition Authority

the programmes to be broadcast by the JV will be subject to rights issues (i.e., its parents will have to black out programmes for which they do not have UK broadcasting rights).

watty

So how do they do that for the over 50% of N.I. viewers that will get real Saorview if they want or the near 100% that would get Saorsat if they want?

Shows one aspect of the stupidity of the "divide and conquer" (And rip of Europeans as much as possible) of Sports and US Rights Holders.

The Competition Authority appear to have treated this JV as if it's in Manchester.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

So how do they do that for the over 50% of N.I. viewers that will get real Saorview if they want or the near 100% that would get Saorsat if they want?

Terrestrial/FTA satellite overspill, allowed for under the AVMS Directive (it might just be coincidence that they have a few powerful transmitters sitting near the border transmitting overspill into NI ). Regarding Saorsat it isn't being actively promoted by RTÉNL as being available in NI, if you look at the coverage maps in the Saorsat FAQ they show no coverage for NI.

watty wrote: »

The Competition Authority appear to have treated this JV as if it's in Manchester.

Because it is, but not in Manchester - in Belfast. The JV is a limited company registered with Companies House in the UK and licensed (or will be) by Ofcom to operate the multiplex.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75866912#post75866912
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79018264

Name & Registered Office:
MULTIPLEX BROADCASTING SERVICES N.I. LIMITED
MURRAY HOUSE
MURRAY STREET
BELFAST
BT1 6DN
Company No. NI605600

Multiplex Broadcasting Services N. I. Limited ‘NImux’ is the not-for-profit joint venture formed by RTÉ and TG4 to operate a new additional multiplex from a small number of transmission sites in Northern Ireland.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/transmitternetwork/tools__and__resources/almanac/special_editions/Special_edition-010612_NI_trade_update_on_Nimux.pdf

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Terrestrial/FTA satellite overspill, allowed for under the AVMS Directive (it might just be coincidence that they have a few powerful transmitters sitting near the border transmitting overspill into NI ). Regarding Saorsat it isn't being actively promoted by RTÉNL as being available in NI, if you look at the coverage maps in the Saorsat FAQ they show no coverage for NI.



Because it is, but not in Manchester - in Belfast.

The rights issue is complicated by the 'All Ireland' rights and 'Republic of Ireland' rights. It is a stupid sytem that has such fine distinctions.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The rights issue is complicated by the 'All Ireland' rights and 'Republic of Ireland' rights. It is a stupid sytem that has such fine distinctions.

Also the fact that UK channels not only sell advertising into the RoI market but also air programmes into the market that Irish channels have the rights too. NI is a small part of the UK, RTÉ's coverage of Euro 2012 or TG4's coverage of Wimbelton really won't effect the advertising market in the North.

watty

I remember RTENL coverage maps for Cairn Hill, Truskmore, Holy Hill, Clermont Cairn where the coverage stopped dead at the Border. Fictitious coverage.

Saorsat coverage isn't decided by borders and less in control by RTE NL than DTT (which will DELIBERATELY cover NI).


Purple spot is Official Eutelsat "perfect reception". Obviously a dish suitable for extreme SW tip of Ireland will work for the tiny bit of N.I. outside the Purple spot.


On RTENL's DTT coverage maps the Border no longer is edge of coverage
http://maps.techtir.com/dtt-donegal.htm
http://maps.techtir.com/dtt-north-east.htm
(Official RTE NL maps)

So the JV is
a) A Waste of money.
b) Should be same content as Saorview seeing as they are wasting money on it. Anything else is a farce.

It may be in the UK, but is limited N.I. Coverage and giving nothing that over 50% will get from Saorview and near 100% from Saorsat.

RTENL is hardly promoting Saorsat here and isn't (currently) promoting Saorview in N.I. either though it's on coverage maps, with NO clear distinction between JV minimux and Saorview coverage on published maps. The fact they are not "promoting" NI coverage of Saorsat in N.I. is irrelevant.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

I remember RTENL coverage maps for Cairn Hill, Truskmore, Holy Hill, Clermont Cairn where the coverage stopped dead at the Border. Fictitious coverage.

RTÉ used to publish coverage maps which did show coverage into Northern Ireland. And to be fair, neither the BBC, Ofcom or any of its predecessors ever published the extent of Welsh and Northern Irish transmissions into the Republic either, except for some small maps with little detail.

watty wrote: »

So the JV is
a) A Waste of money.
b) Should be same content as Saorview seeing as they are wasting money on it. Anything else is a farce.

Disagree. Terrestrial reception is still very common in Northern Ireland, more so than in the Republic. Technical considerations to achieve adequate coverage especially to areas that Saorview won't reach, along with technical and legal issues (e.g. would TV3 be interested? And if so they'd certainly prick UTV's ears up) means replicating Saorview content isn't a viable option. No point throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The Cush

This from the Derry Journal

Durkan calls for stronger links

Foyle MP Mark Durkan has called for closer co-operation between the British and Irish governments on a range of issues.

...

The former SDLP leader said the group should focus on a number of key issues. “The issue of communications is one of the areas that should have been addressed more heavily at a British-Irish level. We are left with the situation in Ireland where we have two, rival digital platforms. In border constituencies, people have to buy one device if they want to get their Saorview digital TV and another if they want to get Freeview. That is nonsense and it has been a failure. The issue could have been addressed only at the British-Irish level, not at the north-south level.

...

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/durkan-calls-for-stronger-links-1-3986819

Souriau

This was on BBC1NI tonight
is there any report from anywhere else of this?

Ronnie Raygun

Maybe Brougher's due a full power test?

lawhec

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Maybe Brougher's due a full power test?

That's what it appears to be - all analogue and current Freeview services are off air. Checking reception over the next wee while.

lawhec

0128 - Currently only E21 and E22 being tested, reception here for strength/quality (I realise the numbers are arbitary, but they might be useful as a guide) are 98-99/100 on E21, 100/100 on E22.

0133 - Using TSReader, E21 has a mux capacity of 27.216Mbps while E22 is 24.076Mbps. E22 is the planned PSB2 or ITV/C4/C5 multiplex and E21 is the planned COM4 or SDN multiplex.

0136 - E24, E27 and E28 are now also up, all giving 100/100. Just realised E21's reading on mine may be down to the aerial system on my place seemingly being a bit weaker on lower frequencies that evens out that starts getting better on around E24. No sign yet of E25, which will carry the DVB-T2 HD channels, nor E30 which plans to have the NI MiniMux. Instead, there seems to be a small strength reading but no quality measurement on E30 - suspected to be reception of Holywell Hill behind the aerial.

Just for info, my PC DTT USB tuner is DVB-T only, so no readings available on either of the two DVB-T2 muxs will be possible on them.

0207 - E30 has just lit up - and TSreader can't find the signal on the same frequency so this must be the NI MiniMux! However strength & quality readings are all over the place, sometimes both go down irregularly right down to previous readings at 0136! The first test of the NI MiniMux? Still nothing on E25 atm.

A quick check on analogue co-channel, as expected analogue Ch4, UTV & BBC2 are pretty much wiped out with co-channel at the moment, with BBC1 still being visible. With the current Brougher Freeview muxs down, analogue services from Holywell Hill are coming through with colour lock on an aerial pointing at Divis. Might go into the bedroom and fix an indoor aerial to see the results as there will not be much of a chance to see this again.

0238 - Still no sign of anything on E25.

OK, I'm away to bed for the night - still no sign of any activity on E25, have some photos and images if I get the chance to upload tomorrow/later today.

Souriau

Divis is still onair
the testing must be elsewhere...

stam

Brougher Mt back on for me here back about 6am

Richard

The Cush wrote: »

This from the Derry Journal

Mark Durkan obviously doesn't have a Freeview HD box, then as that would do both....

lawhec

If it's any help to anyone, some screenshots of reception with TSreader during last night's tests. I did try both a HTML and XML data dump, but both files were effectively blank.

lawhec

And being unable to read DVB-T2 data on my computer, a screenshot of the RTÉ NI MiniMux on test transmission at 2.19am today.

lawhec

Okay, time for tonight's live updates...

0033 - All current Freeview multiplexes are off except Mux1 on E30; all analogue services are still on except UTV which has just switched off.

0035 - Channel 4 analogue has also gone off. In theory it shouldn't have to as it's frequency isn't being reused post-DSO, but there is possibly a technical reason for all analogue TV services to be switched off.

Looking at the BBC1 & BBC2 schedules, they will probably be switched off along with Mux1 at around 0100 to 0105. Still no sign of any activity on E25, which is scheduled to carry the DVB-T2 PSB HD channels which I didn't notice last night.

0105 - BBC2 Analogue now off. Just after an engineering announcement has been made. And so is BBC1 analogue. Mux1 on E30 is still live.

0106 - And Mux1 is now down! Should only be moments now before the high powered muxs are being tested...

0141 - E22 (planned PSB2) and E28 (planned PSB1) are finally up and running with tests. Like last night, signal is 100/100 on both.

0148 - E24 and E27 (COM 5 & 6 respectively) are also now running. Again received signal here is 100/100.

0152 - E30 (RTÉ NI Mux) has also powered up and finally(!) E25 has also been fired up! However like when E30 was fired up last night, the signal quality is all over the place at present. E30 signal is 100/100. Only E21 left.

0155 - And E21 (COM4) has finally peaked its head, so all post-DSO muxs are now on test. If you're still up, now is the time to check.

Not surprisingly, tuning in with TSreader isn't showing anything different from last night so no real need for screen grabs at present. Going to check how a couple of other receivers are handling this at present...

0201 - E25 is now off. Were the fluctuating signal quality levels I got indicative of a problem up at Brougher?

0245 - Doing some experimenting with reception on a couple of other receivers and also indoor reception - the other two receivers for the RTÉ NI Mux give a lower quality reading than my TV - possibly it judges signal level overall on S/N ratio rather than also taking into account transmission modes? Also as for indoor reception, at the moment I only have a crap pair of £1 rabbit ears but the 2 PSB DVB-T muxes despite pointing through several walls (i.e. worst case scenario) did show viable reception on the bedroom receiver with careful positioning, but nothing on the COM multiplexes or the RTÉ NI Mux. Noting the signal strength on the various DVB-T muxs with the outdoor aerial though I've noticed that despite the notable difference in power between the PSB and COM multiplexes there is not much difference in received signal strength, the COMs being a notch lower in strength and no difference in quality. It's a shame that though my TV can read out S/N and BER measurements, you need to be tuned to a programme for that to work So no good here. Also no sign of the PSB3 (DVB-T2 HD) multiplex coming back on. Is something up with a TX during these tests? I always thought there were standbys even for the tests.

0253 - E25 is back on! But again the signal quality levels are massively fluctuating!

0300 - And not much sooner after it was on it's back off again! I've a feeling that the transmitter (or at least something along its chain) destined for the HD services has a problem. But better this found out now than on the 24th October! OK, I'm going to bed now. I suspect after the engineering embargo after the Olympics and Paralympics is lifted they'll do a joint Brougher/Divis test to check the possibility of co-channel DTT interference at a fairly short distance apart.

Souriau

Divis transmitter E29

18:20 BBC Mux 1 is off-air now. is that the same with anyone else?

18:45 back on-air

MACHEAD

The BBC reported (after BBC Newsline) that Freeview services were off air for a time due to a 'technical fault'.

Mr. Rabbit

Northerrn Visions TV confirms it's part of a consortium that will bid for the Freeview local TV licence in the greater Belfast area.

This from an e-mail dated 26/6/12:

NORTHERN VISIONS BUILDS CONSORTIUM IN BID FOR LOCAL TELEVISION


Northern Visions confirmed today that it will bid for the local television license in Belfast. Ofcom has confirmed that Belfast will be one of the first areas to have its own local TV station.


Northern Visions originally won the bid to broadcast local community television, NvTv, in 2002 and has been broadcasting to the Greater Belfast area on the old analogue signal since 2004. This is due to be switched off in October as part of the digital switchover.


Years of active campaigning by the local television sector have successfully resulted in DCMS putting in place the necessary legislative and infrastructural support for local television.
“The issues that have severely limited the development local television have now been addressed. Local television will be received on the digital platform Freeview, with opportunities to expand to cable and satellite. With the public able to receive local television easily, we will be able to extend our programming and services for the community including offering a low-budget solution for small local businesses to advertise their services. In developing the bid it is our intention to strengthen the partnerships with the many cultural, community and educational organisations who work with Northern Visions and also seek partnerships with the commercial sector.” said David Hyndman of Northern Visions

.

Mr. Rabbit

0152 - E30 (RTÉ NI Mux) has also powered up

I assume the RTE NI Mux from Carnmoney Hill will be tested at some stage ?

Richard

Just a note that at the end of UTV Live this evening, they mentioned that Divis digital and analogue would be off from midnight-6am tonight and again tomorrow night.

I thought Brougher and Limavady were Divis-fed, at least on analogue, but they weren't mentioned. Is there another source these days?