Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

The Cush

mdfire wrote: »

However, doing a search on a Icecrypt box this morning Im also picking up channel 28 albeit on very low quality 3%. Where would this be from (Divis?).

The Benagh relay in Co Down is the only transmitter allocated Ch28. Divis is Ch27.

Mr. Rabbit

Plus, the aerial would need to be mounted horizontally rather than vertically.

You could try mdfire, but I doubt Divis will be receivable in Greenore.

You're probably better off going for Freesat.

Finne1993

I live just behind the Greenore mast and last year I did a bit of experimenting at receiving Divis, I was'nt expecting much with the mourne mountains smack in line with Divis but the analogue signals came in, they were just about watchable, no digital signals though but going by what I've seen in Dundalk this past few days (houses with a very poor analogue signal taking in near perfect digital) I reckon the digital PSB muxes will come through fine now but the com muxes might struggle to come through, when things settle down after the switchover and I get a bit of time I'll get testing them out and post the details here.

As an aside I'm picking up a perfect signal from kilkeel, and slight signals from benagh and camlough. camlough obviously coming in the side of the C/D aerial I have up for Kippure which I can do away with now as we have perfect saorview from Greenore which is coming through on the same group B aerial as kilkeel is. This set up makes installs very handy around this area now!

Mr. Rabbit

You'll probably also get the Rostrevor and both Newry transmitters, and possibly Killowen Mountain.

Rostrevor is just across the lough, so signals should also be excellent.

Finne1993

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

You'll probably also get the Rostrevor and both Newry transmitters, and possibly Killowen Mountain.

Rostrevor is just across the lough, so signals should also be excellent.

Rostrevor is blocked from me by its location in the mourne mountains, it can be got no problem in Omeath but not where I am, not sure about the Newry ones, probably just a bit too far away from me, they're running on a lot less power than Camlough and Kilkeel. Killowen is running on the same frequencies as Divis, nothing on 27 where I am but my aerial is a group B in the attic pointed at Kilkeel so no surprise I'm not picking it up.
It will be interesting to see what I can pick up from Divis after the 24th, the more I think of it I reckon I might be able to pick up all of the muxes. I won't get a chance to experiment on it for a few weeks but when I do I'll post the details up

lucernarian

It's important to remember that some of the relays in question will broadcast stronger in some directions than others. Killowen mountain broadcasts are very directional towards the Kilkeel relay. See http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/killowen-mountain.php

CRM Ireland

Is there a definitive list of what channels will be available from the 24th on the Kilkeel transmitter? In this thread Ive read that Kilkeel will be freeview lite, and then again Ive heard it might do full freeview.

ANy info on the facts? WHat exactly is the difference between lite and full freeview? Why would any particular transmitter only be providing a lite offering instead of the full? Is it for financial reasons or technical reasons?

The Cush

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Is there a definitive list of what channels will be available from the 24th on the Kilkeel transmitter?

ANy info on the facts? WHat exactly is the difference between lite and full freeview? Why would any particular transmitter only be providing a lite offering instead of the full? Is it for financial reasons or technical reasons?

Freeview lite - http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=IJ281180

The Freeview lite transmitters do not broadcast the 3 commercial muxes, only the 3 PSB muxes are transmitted. The commercial mux licence holders opted not to transmit from the approx 1,000 relays in the mid 2000s probably because of the cost to cover 7-10% of the UK population. They were offered the frequencies but declined.

sligotrain

It's fair to say the reasons for Freeview Lite at most relays is mostly financial, though also technical in key sensitive locations like the English south coast, the East Anglian coast and in Northern Ireland to reduce the risk of interference from Freeview transmissions to foreign (and yes that also includes the Saorview transmissions).

Essentially Freeview Lite is the Public Service only multiplexes. This means that the commercial channels such as Sky Sports 1 & 2, Gold and the Top-Up TV service aren't available. However some popular channels such as Sky News, PickTV, Dave, 4Music, Film4. Five*, Five USA , ITV3, ITV4 or E4, etc. are not on Freeview Lite, however the HD channels BBC 1 HD, BBC (2) HD, ITV 1 HD and Channel 4 HD are.

If the full range of UK FTA channels is important to you, get a FTA DVB-S2 satellite reciever. If the full EPG is important, then get a Freesat box, though this will not be compatable with Saorview and a seperate Saorview TV or receiver will be needed.

The big advantage of getting the UK Freeview channels post ASO will be the ability to combine both the Irish channels and the UK channels on a single EPG. If Kilkeel is being used then you will only have Freeview Lite - but that's still the existing channels, plus Channel 5, BBC 3,4 and News and the HD channels - a DVB-T2 box or TV will be needed for the HD channels but a Saorview box/TV will be able to receive the SD channels provided a good enough signal is available.

JazzyJ

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Is there a definitive list of what channels will be available from the 24th on the Kilkeel transmitter? In this thread Ive read that Kilkeel will be freeview lite, and then again Ive heard it might do full freeview.

ANy info on the facts? WHat exactly is the difference between lite and full freeview? Why would any particular transmitter only be providing a lite offering instead of the full? Is it for financial reasons or technical reasons?

And just for completeness full Freeview from Divis: http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IJ287750

mike65

sligotrain wrote: »

It's fair to say the reasons for Freeview Lite at most relays is mostly financial, though also technical in key sensitive locations like the English south coast, the East Anglian coast and in Northern Ireland to reduce the risk of interference from Freeview transmissions to foreign (and yes that also includes the Saorview transmissions).

Essentially Freeview Lite is the Public Service only multiplexes. This means that the commercial channels such as Sky Sports 1 & 2, Gold and the Top-Up TV service aren't available. However some popular channels such as Sky News, PickTV, Dave, 4Music, Film4. Five*, Five USA , ITV3, ITV4 or E4, etc. are not on Freeview Lite, however the HD channels BBC 1 HD, BBC (2) HD, ITV 1 HD and Channel 4 HD are.

If the full range of UK FTA channels is important to you, get a FTA DVB-S2 satellite reciever. If the full EPG is important, then get a Freesat box, though this will not be compatable with Saorview and a seperate Saorview TV or receiver will be needed.

er no Sky Sports on any type of Freeview ever!

sligotrain

It's not on Freeview but it is being transmitted (encrypted) on the UK DTT system for BT Vision boxes and Top Up.

Peter Rhea

JazzyJ wrote: »

And just for completeness full Freeview from Divis: http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IJ287750

That's the pre-switchover lineup. See 'after switchover configuration' here for a better idea of what will be available (obviously the '303' olympic stream is gone from the HD mux).

Peter Rhea

sligotrain wrote: »

Essentially Freeview Lite is the Public Service only multiplexes. This means that the commercial channels such as Sky Sports 1 & 2, Gold and the Top-Up TV service aren't available. However some popular channels such as Sky News, PickTV, Dave, 4Music, Film4. Five*, Five USA , ITV3, ITV4 or E4, etc. are not on Freeview Lite

You should divide those channels into 3 categories: subscription, commercial & public service.

JazzyJ

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That's the pre-switchover lineup. See 'after switchover configuration' here for a better idea of what will be available (obviously the '303' olympic stream is gone from the HD mux).

Sound! Hadn't seen that before.

In my defence I was just trying to show what extra channels were available in freeview v freeview lite.

reslfj

JazzyJ wrote: »

Peter Rhea wrote: »

See 'after switchover configuration' here for a better idea of what will be available (obviously the '303' olympic stream is gone from the HD mux).

In my defence I was just trying to show what extra channels were available in freeview v freeview lite.

• The capacity now used by the 303 stream will be used for one HD channel or more SD channels.
• You can find 'zillions' of post about FreeviewLite in this forum. This thread is however about the DSO in the UTV region.
• If you live in the ROI, UK/NI overspill is a - take it or leave it - gift.

The UK/NI overspill is 15 SD channels and 4 (soon 5) HD channels of some of the best TV produced.

FreeviewLite provides more FTA channels than almost anywhere in the world - and nowhere has so many FTA channels such a large coverage. Coverage should be 98,5% of households, but with newer receivers and good aerials it is well over 99%.

Lars


PS!

• ROI has 1 FTA mux
• Norway has 1 FTA mux + pay
• Denmark and Sweden has 2 FTA muxes + pay
• Germany has 6 low capacity (~55% UK capacity) muxes. But the three COM muxes only covers half the country.
• France do not have a DTT coverage anywhere near 99% of households.
• and,
• and, and .....

CRM Ireland

Id really love to have the full freeview. At the moment my antenna is vertical and pointing directly at the Kilkeel transmitter. I can see it from my window.

Here is a very short video Ive just taken standing at the front door panning from West to East looking from Castlecoe Hill in Clogherhead towards Northern Ireland. My antenna is pointing in the direction of exactly when the video ends.

Looking at the map location of the Divis transmitter, I should be pointing a bit more to the West. Would I have to turn my antenna so thats its laying horizontal? Does it have to be line of sight? Or does the signal bend over mountains etc? I dont think bend would be the technical term, but Im sure you know what Im asking!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlr2uOHLjzY&feature=youtu.be

mrdtv2010

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Id really love to have the full freeview. At the moment my antenna is vertical and pointing directly at the Kilkeel transmitter. I can see it from my window.

Here is a very short video Ive just taken standing at the front door panning from West to East looking from Castlecoe Hill in Clogherhead towards Northern Ireland. My antenna is pointing in the direction of exactly when the video ends.

Looking at the map location of the Divis transmitter, I should be pointing a bit more to the West. Would I have to turn my antenna so thats its laying horizontal? Does it have to be line of sight? Or does the signal bend over mountains etc? I dont think bend would be the technical term, but Im sure you know what Im asking!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlr2uOHLjzY&feature=youtu.be

Nice views! Divis is Group A horizontal for all multiplexes. People further down the coast from you are getting Divis. It's well worth a try, but Kilkeel is a Group B aerial, so you might need to change to a Group A or wideband (preferably Group A). Historically in the analogue era Kilkeel was probably preferred because it was clear line-of-sight so no ghosting whereas Divis had to come through the Mournes in some areas (so heavily ghosted.) This is not an issue for high power digital transmissions as COFDM systems such as DVB-T1 and DVB-T2 have error correction.

What you need and this applies to all those wanting Freeview is:

a) Sufficient signal strength, ideally greater than 30dBuV/m

b) C/N ratio better than 20dB ( ideally with a 6dB safety margin)

c) As high a quality reading as possible, eg 100% is best, corresponds to BER of 1 exp -7 or better

d) Either the right aerial group or a wideband aerial group

e) Possibly a variable gain amplifier

f) Low loss coaxial cable, satellite grade.

I suspect a lot of shiney new installations will be going up just as they did during the Welsh DSO.

reslfj

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Id really love to have the full freeview.

Looking at the map location of the Divis transmitter, I should be pointing a bit more to the West. Would I have to turn my antenna so thats its laying horizontal? Does it have to be line of sight? Or does the signal bend over mountains etc? ....

Sure - the COM muxes would be nice - but money talks - and they say "No".

The UHF signals will 'bend', but not by much - and not enough for the Divis signals to be reliable even from the top of the Kilkeel mast (which is very much higher than your aerial). This is why Arqiva uses the small Killowen Mountain relay to source Kilkeel.

But RF is also a kind of a 'black art' - it may work - give it a try! - if possible with a larger group A aerial.

If you were higher and closer to Dublin, the signal would need to 'bend' less and the chances would be much better - or even very good - for Divis.

Lower frequency signals 'bend' more easily and this should help the Divis (ch21-29) signals a little. (VHF is 'bends' much better)

Lars

Signal 'bend' ~ less 'diffraction loss'

reslfj

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

....
This is not an issue for high power digital transmissions as COFDM systems such as DVB-T1 and DVB-T2 have error correction.

Multipath COFDM signals are adding up to a stronger combined signal (but with a little added fading too - for the errorcorrecting to fix).

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

e) Possibly a variable gain amplifier

A very low noise amplifier is important if used. One without much gain at the lowest setting.

Lars

Mr. Rabbit

Freesat is the next best thing if you can't get Divis.

Channels that are on Freeview but not Freesat are Dave, Yesterday, Quest, Viva, and Really. DéJá is only on for a few hours from around 2.00am so you're not missing much. Sky News and Pick T.V. are available free to air in non Freesat mode. Freesat has in fact got many more channels that aren't even on Freeview.

However, if you can get even a Freeview lite relay station from NI, I'd key in an English postcode as there's no telling when UTV HD or UTV+1 will arrive on Feesat. Supposedly before the end of the year but knowing UTV I'm not optomistic

mrdtv2010

reslfj wrote: »

Multipath COFDM signals are adding up to a stronger combined signal (but with a little added fading too - for the errorcorrecting to fix).

A very low noise amplifier is important if used. One without much gain at the lowest setting.



Lars

Indeed. I use the Visionlink 28dB variable gain amplifier: you get it off Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/V20-1127-Amplifier-Aerials-Satellites-Cables/dp/B002Y0Q4R2/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1350314971&sr=8-6

Mullaghteelin

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Historically in the analogue era Kilkeel was probably preferred because it was clear line-of-sight so no ghosting whereas Divis had to come through the Mournes in some areas (so heavily ghosted.)

Even without ghosting issues, many areas with a good Kilkeel signal have little chance of receiving Divis, without a huge antenna array.
The signal from Divis was always very weak indeed in the coastal strip south of the Mournes. Not just heavily ghosted, but almost non-existent.
The higher up and further south you go, Divis reception slowly improves.

I have noticed a number of reports of people who previously may have had a mediocre Kilkeel analogue reception discovering they have great freeview reception. Kilkeel seems to be getting out particularly well.

reslfj

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

...
I have noticed a number of reports of people who previously may have had a mediocre Kilkeel analogue reception discovering they have great freeview reception. Kilkeel seems to be getting out particularly well.

The normal analogue to digital ERP ratio is -7dB or 5 times lower e.g. Divis BBC1 500kW mux BBCA 100kW.

But for Kilkeel the analog 600W is replaced with a 400W DTT signal or only 33% down or -1.7 dB.

Kilkeel has a digital ERP equivalent to around 7 - 1.7 = 5.3 dB higher or ~3.35 times more powerful - and a coverage as if the analogue signal was 2kW and not just 600W.

Camlough is the same story - analogue 630W, digital 500W, which has a coverage equivalent to a 2.5kW analogue signal.

Lars

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/reception_advice/regions/view_transmitters.asp-itv_region_id=12.html

mrdtv2010

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

Even without ghosting issues, many areas with a good Kilkeel signal have little chance of receiving Divis, without a huge antenna array.
The signal from Divis was always very weak indeed in the coastal strip south of the Mournes. Not just heavily ghosted, but almost non-existent.
The higher up and further south you go, Divis reception slowly improves.

I have noticed a number of reports of people who previously may have had a mediocre Kilkeel analogue reception discovering they have great freeview reception. Kilkeel seems to be getting out particularly well.

That is because Kilkeel is clear of the Mournes for the Louth/Meath eastern seaboard area. If you got a CCIR Grade 2- 4 PAL picture in the Kilkeel extended service area you are in business for excellent digital reception: there is nothing very surprising about this. Proper investigation of Divis requires:

a) the right aerials

b) the use of proper meters.

Richard

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The second red button channel is being abandoned soon due to BBC cost cutting.
In no more than a matter of a handful of days in fact

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/bbc-reducing-red-button-tv-services-to-a-single-video-stream-1101755

That's for Sky, Freesat and cable. Freeview has only had one since the second one was got rid of about 3 years ago. Apart from the Olympics of course.

Richard

sligotrain wrote: »

It's not on Freeview but it is being transmitted (encrypted) on the UK DTT system for BT Vision boxes and Top Up.

And so is G.O.L.D. ESPN too, I think.

mdfire

Finne1993 wrote: »

Rostrevor is blocked from me by its location in the mourne mountains, it can be got no problem in Omeath but not where I am, not sure about the Newry ones, probably just a bit too far away from me, they're running on a lot less power than Camlough and Kilkeel. Killowen is running on the same frequencies as Divis, nothing on 27 where I am but my aerial is a group B in the attic pointed at Kilkeel so no surprise I'm not picking it up.
It will be interesting to see what I can pick up from Divis after the 24th, the more I think of it I reckon I might be able to pick up all of the muxes. I won't get a chance to experiment on it for a few weeks but when I do I'll post the details up

If you manage to get it working I would be interested in an install!

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Special one hour programme entitled The Magic Box: Digital Switchover to be presented by Eamonn Holmes will be shown on BBC One NI and UTV at 10.35pm on Tuesday 23 October, 2012.

This from the DigitalUK NI facebook page

Digital UK Northern Ireland
7 hours ago

Your chance to vote for your favourite NI clip from the analogue years!
http://www.u.tv/magicbox/

The Magic Box – Vote for Your Magical TV Moment - UTV
www.u.tv
UTV and BBC NI celebrate the digital switchover with a live simulcast hosted by Eamonn Holmes.

http://www.facebook.com/digitaluknorthernireland/posts/367408016674471

Mr. Rabbit

Mine would have to be:

Prince the talking dog on that's life.

Parkinson being attacked by Emu.

The Parkinson Ali interview.

The blue peter baby elephant scene.

But I suppose none of those are relevant to NI or UTV !

Jackie Fullerton and Giant Haystacks must surely be one of the best UTV moments though !