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Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Did some very crude tests in Louth a couple of days ago. On a grid aerial and masthead amp specific to Group B, facing Cairn Hill (about 260 degrees bearing) I was able to pick up other Saorview muxes.

    Clermont carn was detected on Ch. 52 but a channel list couldn't be loaded. Kippure on Ch. 54 performed quite well with only slight breakup and Three Rock on Ch. 30 with somewhat more pixelation.

    Most interestingly, Mt. Leinster on Ch.23 was detected and was the most reliable mux even though it was received on an aerial facing 90 degrees away from it! Now while side lobes and local terrain would have skewed things, I can nonetheless receive a perfectly usable and reliable signal over the space of 30 minutes of testing in Louth from Mt. Leinster.

    This could be worth remembering, when people have reception problems from the Divis commercial multiplex on Ch. 23


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,046 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    NIMM widescreen problem on TG4 (channel 51 on LCN) seems to have been solved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 WALKINSTOWN76


    Is there anything i can do to improve the signal quility on sky news it changes from 100% to 75% & the
    picture breaks up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 geriatrix


    Is anyone experiencing a problem with Saorview from Moville this afternoon?
    I have no programmes at all but do have EPG
    I tried a manual re-tune for CH45 but found Signal Strength zero and Quality zero

    Edit 8.00pm 6 Nov.
    All restored - Quality 'Good' and '95%' as shown by two receivers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭lolie


    The Cush wrote: »

    Channels like Dave, Viva, Quest, Sky News are on the lower power commercial multiplexes, signal strength is probably closer to the 90% end of the scale and may be prone to occasional drop in signal quality and picture breakup.

    47 - Saorview, Cairn Hill (160kW)
    22, 25, 28 - Freeview PSB muxes, Brougher Mt (20kW)
    21, 24, 27 - Freeview COM muxes, Brougher Mt (2kW)
    30 - Freeview NImux, Brougher Mt (1kW)

    Cheers Cush.
    Surely if the signal is quality is 100% or near there should be no break up.
    Could it be that ch's 22, 25 and 28 at 20kw's are blocking partially blocking out ch's 21, 24 and 27 at 2kw's?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    The interference to chs. 21, 24 & 27 is probably due to the Divis (Belfast) transmitter using the same channels for its public service channels at 100 kW.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭lolie


    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    The interference to chs. 21, 24 & 27 is probably due to the Divis (Belfast) transmitter using the same channels for its public service channels at 100 kW.

    How far down south does the Divis signal travel i wonder?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    The interfering signal only has to be present at a low level (something like 1/100th the power of the wanted signal) to cause problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    I noticed a little bit of break-up on Kilkeel at times over recent nights and wondered if Moel-y-Parc was responsible. Amateur radio repeaters from North West England were fading in at the time, so conditions may have been a little enhanced.
    With an loft aerial turned east, I was regularly able to watch Moel-y Parc last summer, despite it sharing channels with analogue Kilkeel. Only a matter time of time before it rears it head. LLandona and Winter Hill also boomed in here with strong signals on many summer evenings. I'm just above sea level in Balbriggan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭ubuntulinux




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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    Freeview from Camlough & Saorview from Kippure. Is your aerial actually set up to receive from those sites?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13 nanor01


    Can anyone tell me how far south Divis has been received.. I.m living in Dun Laoghaire near The Graduate and have clear line of sight to Divis .. Has anyone any reports on viewing Divis near this location..


    thank you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    You don't have line of sight. You're below the radio horizon & have the Mourne mountains in the way.

    Doesn't mean you won't get a signal though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13 nanor01


    I can receive Radio from Divis using rooftop aerial no problem ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Much lower frequency. The Horizon is about 50% further away VHF Band II compared to UHF DTT (Band IV)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭lolie


    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    The interference to chs. 21, 24 & 27 is probably due to the Divis (Belfast) transmitter using the same channels for its public service channels at 100 kW.

    Looking back through this thread i earlier misread it as the Brougher coms sharing with the Divis coms not the PSB'S, hence why i asked about the Brougher 20kw's interfering with the 2kw's signal. My bad.

    I asked about how far south the Divis signal would travel to see would it be worth moving the aerial to try and pick it up instead of Brougher seen as its a lot higher powered.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    I would think that even a reasonable signal from Divis would wipe out the Brougher coms., unless your aerial just happened to be positioned so as to offer rejection in that particular direction.

    You could try for Divis, but the signal levels required to cause a nuisance are way below what's necessary for reliable service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭lolie


    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    I would think that even a reasonable signal from Divis would wipe out the Brougher coms., unless your aerial just happened to be positioned so as to offer rejection in that particular direction.

    You could try for Divis, but the signal levels required to cause a nuisance are way below what's necessary for reliable service.

    Thanks peter.
    Why were the Brougher coms co-channeled with the Divis psb's in the first place, seem's a bit stupid no?
    Is it gonna stay that way for good?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    lolie wrote: »
    Thanks peter.
    Why were the Brougher coms co-channeled with the Divis psb's in the first place, seem's a bit stupid no?
    Is it gonna stay that way for good?
    Before switchover, Brougher and Divis shared group A, and there was 16 channels to share between them (21-35 + 37)

    Divis used 21, 24, 27 and 31. (and 37 at Black Mountain)
    Brougher used 22, 25, 28 and 32.

    That meant 9 channels in use, 7 free (23, 26, 29, 30, 33, 34, 35)

    After switchover, there are 10 channels available (21-30)

    There is now an increased number of channels in use (7 at each (inc. NIMM at Black Mountain) and 10 channels to share. There's too many there so 3 channels have to share, in this case the Brougher COMs have to share with Divis PSBs.

    If there was no 600Mhz clearence the rest of Group A could be used to house the Brougher COMs (and also maybe leave Black Mountain NIMM into Group A so it's compatible with existing BM Channel 5 aerials and Divis aerials)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    marno21 wrote: »
    Before switchover, Brougher and Divis shared group A, and there was 16 channels to share between them (21-35 + 37)

    Divis used 21, 24, 27 and 31. (and 37 at Black Mountain)
    Brougher used 22, 25, 28 and 32.

    That meant 9 channels in use, 7 free (23, 26, 29, 30, 33, 34, 35)

    After switchover, there are 10 channels available (21-30)

    There is now an increased number of channels in use (7 at each (inc. NIMM at Black Mountain) and 10 channels to share. There's too many there so 3 channels have to share, in this case the Brougher COMs have to share with Divis PSBs.

    If there was no 600Mhz clearence the rest of Group A could be used to house the Brougher COMs (and also maybe leave Black Mountain NIMM into Group A so it's compatible with existing BM Channel 5 aerials and Divis aerials)

    There will also be the Northern Visions local mux for Greater Belfast on Channel 30 from Divis next year.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    At the RRC-06 conference in Geneva, Divis was allocated frequencies E21, E23, E24, E26, E27, E29, E31 and E33 with an ERP of 100kW while Brougher Mountain was allocated E21, E22, E24, E25, E27, E28, E31 and E32 with an ERP of 20kW.

    The transmission configuration for the BBC A & D3&4 multiplexes (as well as the BBC B mux for HD) means that the set Guard Interval of 1/32 (1/128 for BBC B) leaves only an 8.4km distance before the same signal starts to interfere, wherever it is another transmitter as part of a single frequency network or the same signal from the wanted transmitter being reflected off a distant object, with such reception causing quality loss to the point of it being completely corrupted and unusable.

    The decision was taken that at Brougher Mountain and Divis to reuse analogue allocations for the PSB multiplexes, hence E21, E24 and E27 from Divis and E22, E25 and E28 from Brougher Mountain. For the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes at Divis, E23, E26 and E29 were available and are run at 50kW ERP - this is normal for these multiplexes to run at half the power of the PSB multiplexes as done so by the operators. This is also the case from the Limavady transmitter. There are a few exceptions where these three commercial multiplexes are run at the same power as the PSBs - Crystal Palace in London being one. Brougher Mountain however is one of the very small exceptions at the other end with the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes being broadcast with less than 1/2 the power of the PSB multiplexes.

    The simple reason for this power discrepancy is that as the PSB frequencies are those which are deemed to be the freest from co-channel interference, interference to Divis' PSB multiplex transmissions from Brougher Mountain must be limited. Hence the compromise of 2kW for the Arqiva and SDN multiplexes.

    The power difference between these three multiplexes and the PSB ones being ten times higher should not normally cause a problem of the PSB multiplexes causing adjacent channel interference unless the reception of the PSB multiplexes is unusually strong e.g. using a Blake DMX16A with a powerful masthead amp around 5km from Brougher with a clear LOS. loopy.gif What the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes are more sensitive to is that they need a higher carrier-to-noise or signal-to-noise value compared to the PSB multiplexes as they use a higher FEC value. Depending on how the C/N or S/N value is measured, this demands about 1.5 to 2.3db higher value.

    OTOH the NImm multiplex on E30 from Brougher Mountain, while only has an ERP of 1kW has a transmission configuration requiring a significantly lower C/N or S/N ratio than all the other multiplexes. In the absence of co-channel interference from the likes of Holywell Hill and Three Rock, it's coverage is in my experience so far matching that of the three PSB multiplexes.

    Could anything have been done differently? Well they could have run the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes from Brougher with 10kW, but this would have started to significantly impact on PSB reception from Divis in many parts of Northern Ireland and also some parts of the Republic. In particular parts of Eastern Co.Tyrone, Northern and Western Co. Armagh, a few parts of South Co. Derry, a few parts of Southern Co. Fermanagh (where normally reception from Divis is better than that from Brougher, like Roslea), a good bit of Co. Monaghan and maybe even bits of Co. Cavan and Co. Meath.

    The next option was to put the PSB multiplexes on E21, E24 and E27 (the same as Divis) with the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes on E22, E25 and E28. It would have been in terms of regulation difficult to have the PSB muxs operate on less power than the commercial muxs to start with. Secondly this set up could only really work as an SFN to ensure that anyone receiving a PSB mux from both Brougher and Divis had a reduced chance of their reception being corrupted. But this would have been severely hampered and compromised - first the guard interval would have needed to be significantly increased to 1/4 and with it, a > 4MB/s decrease in available data rate multiplex (meaning something would have to be sacrificed) for the BBC A and D3&4 muxs. Also reducing the guard interval to 1/4 would only increase the distance limit to 67.2km, meaning that if there was a distance difference of more than 67.2km at the location of reception between the two transmission sites and the two signals were still strong enough together, a picture blackout would still take place. The LOS distance between Divis and Brougher is nearly 96km, meaning that even this gap would be impossible to bridge - not to mention that large parts of northern and western Fermanagh would be affected as many aerials there aimed towards Brougher would also have Divis within the beamwidth of the receiving aerial, or in say Enniskillen where one of the major sidelobes of a yagi aerial aimed at Brougher would 'see' Divis.

    Next would be using alternative frequencies for the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes at Brougher. E23, E26 and E29 was actually thought about, but then rejected. According to a report by Arqiva, a 10kW ERP of these multiplexes would have been needed to reach Omagh - why this was I don't know. Maybe they were taking into account possible co-channel interference from Holywell Hill (who have allocations on these frequencies not currently in use, but they were for previous analogue transmissions)? As these frequencies are in use from Divis for the same multiplexes at 50kW rather than 100kW, a 4-5kW ERP might have been possible without affecting the core service area of these multiplexes from Divis - fringe reception might have been affected, but it is taken by the multiplex operators that their broadcasts are slightly more liable to interference. In the end, this hasn't happened. Another alternative would have been to look for other possible allocations in the UHF band - this would have resulted in nearly all with TV aerials aimed at Brougher Mountain having to use either Group K or wideband aerials. It would have been unpopular as it would have made it likely more difficult to receive cross-border Saorview transmissions without using either frequency shifters or manual switches. Traditionally all UHF TV broadcasts at Brougher have been in Group A frequencies including DTT multiplexes pre-DSO.

    The last option I could think of would be the "Rowridge" option. With all physical transmission infrastructure now in place this would be impractical for the amount of people served for this to now be implemented. Rowridge is a main transmitter site on the Isle of Wight that serves a significant area of the south coast of England - the main problem being that co-channel interference from France is a common occurrence. The solution? Introduce vertically polarised transmissions alongside horizontally polarised transmissions. On both polarisations the PSB muxs are 200kW ERP each, but for the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes, they are 50kW ERP horiz and 200kW vertical. This encourages any new aerial installs to use vertical polarisation not only to help equalise all multiplex signal strengths but also help reject co-channel interference of the SDN and Arqiva multiplexes - not only from French transmitters but also from Crystal Palace and Stockland Hill, two near-neighbouring transmitter sites hence another reason why the SDN and Arqiva muxs horizontal ERP is limited to 50kW. In the contect of Brougher Mountain, this could have meant that the SDN and Arqiva multiplex there could, alongside the PSB multiplexes, transmitted with both horizontal and vertical polarisation with the horizontal ERP for SDN and ARQ A and ARQ B limited to 2kW but the vertical component of the signal having a higher ERP, for example 10kW - enough when using the cross-polar rejection of aerials not to have major effects on the PSB muxs from Divis and vice versa. However the additional expense of having such a transmission system set up at Brougher was not likely to be cost effective especially for SDN and Arqiva - Brougher only serves (within its designated service area) about 36,000 homes - this is actually slightly less than the Derry relay on Sherrif's Mountain and a lot less than the 620,000 homes served by Rowridge. Incidentally Divis serves ~440,000 homes and Limavady about 45,000 homes.

    As you can see, with UHF broadcast spectrum being squeezed for space, compromises have to take place somewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Scrap the so called "Digital Dividend".
    Fine people promoting so called "White Space Radio" for attempting to sabotage licensed Infrastructure (it's a fantasy system)

    :D

    What are they going to do when ALL the channels want HD and some want real HD 3D or the new higher resolution HD?


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    lawhec wrote: »
    Hence the compromise of 2kW for the Arqiva and SDN multiplexes.

    With a 20kW GE06 allocation Brougher Mountain COM muxes - I think - could have a higher ERP in the direction away from Divis. This is where aerial pointed at Brougher will get both Brougher (signal) and Divis (noise signal).
    But the more expensive TX-antenna and larger TX-power-amp needed may not be cost effective in terms of the number of extra viewers covered within NI?

    Building a SFN infrastructure in NI is much easier and far better with DVB-T2.
    The three main TX sites has a max distance between transmitters of 96 km. (D-B 96.3 km, D-L = 79.3km, B-L = 84km)
    DVB-T2 32ke CR=2/3 PP2 GI=1/8= 448usec = 134.4 km and bitrate ~33.4Mbps
    You will lose 3 x 6.8 Mbps = 20.4 Mbps on the three COM muxes compared to the DVB-T2 GI=1/128 MFN mode. But you will also free the three COM UHF channels from Limavady as well as allowing the full ERP - 10 or 20 kW - for the COM muxes from Brougher Mountain.

    The COM reception in the ROI would be much better in all areas with signal from both Divis (PSB) and Brougher Mountain (COM).

    Lars :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 13 nanor01


    What is the new height of Divis Transmitting Aerial?


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    nanor01 wrote: »
    What is the new height of Divis Transmitting Aerial?
    http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=533


    Lars :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    Affects those able to get Llanddona and IOM SFN:

    http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107052043

    Note that the new MyP frequency might interfere with NIMM in lift conditions in some areas as they are cochannel from tomorrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭lolie


    Some really interesting reading in the above posts, thanks guys.
    So looks like no sign of things changing.
    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    I would think that even a reasonable signal from Divis would wipe out the Brougher coms., unless your aerial just happened to be positioned so as to offer rejection in that particular direction.

    You could try for Divis, but the signal levels required to cause a nuisance are way below what's necessary for reliable service.

    A relative of mine who lives a good bit closer to Brougher in a new house is thinking about getting the uk channels from Brougher.
    In a good area so should be well able to get a good signal.
    What if an aerial was on the side of the house opposite Divis would it block out any potential interference?


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    from ukfree.tv's Divis page, very interesting:

    'hi my name is[ gerry flanagan ]from dublin iam A tv satellite rigger instaler one of them guys that used to pot up 100 feet mast tv aerials just to get bbc. i have job to du in hotel in virginia co cavan wat transmitter will i goe for [freeview]also just dun job on the north road the ward finglas nth co dublin app 7 miles from dublin city and got all freeview channels from divis groop A uased high gain triax wide band 32W MAST HEAD AMP .I WAS IN SHOCH NEVER TAUGHT FREEVIEW WOOD GET DOWN SO NEAR DYBLIN HAPPYDAYS'


  • Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    mrdtv2010 wrote: »
    from ukfree.tv's Divis page, very interesting:
    '

    Interesting report. Worth bearing in mind that that part of Finglas is on reasonably high ground with a good take-off to the north. I suspect that the southwestern suburbs of Dublin, around Tallaght, may get an even stronger signal from Divis.
    I've seen a number of large aerials pointing northwest, presumably at Brougher, on the Blessington road south of Tallaght, in the foothills of the Dublin Mountains.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    Interesting report. Worth bearing in mind that that part of Finglas is on reasonably high ground with a good take-off to the north. I suspect that the southwestern suburbs of Dublin, around Tallaght, may get an even stronger signal from Divis.
    I've seen a number of large aerials pointing northwest, presumably at Brougher, on the Blessington road south of Tallaght, in the foothills of the Dublin Mountains.

    IIRC high ground in South Dublin got good Divis and Black Mountain before in the analogue era. The Wicklow Mountains will provide handy shielding against Mount Leinster E23 for one of the Divis COM muxes too!


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