Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

watty

The Cush wrote: »

Dáil question from Gerry Adams on Saorview in NI on Tuesday

He could do some basic reading instead of wasting parliamentary time. He'd learn more too.

lucernarian

I'm not sure if that is a legitimate reply when RTE have a legally stated aim to serve the people of Northern Ireland also and I expect this would apply to RTENL on a best effort basis. Hence using Clermont Carn and Holywell Hill where other sites would cover the 26 counties better with UHF.

MarkK

watty wrote: »

He could do some basic reading instead of wasting parliamentary time. He'd learn more too.

Indeed.
He should know that Saorview will not be available to all households in the Republic, so why ask "if the Saorview service will be available to all households in the North", of course it won't!

The Cush

Northern Ireland's 12-months-out Trade Newsletter now up on the DigitalUK website

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/transmitternetwork/tools__and__resources/almanac

mrdtv2010

The newsletter is pretty standard stuff apart from the fact that they could have mentioned that Freeview HD receivers can display Saorview services. The overlaps will indeed be a challenge for viewers in East Down, North Belfast and North Antrim where there will be:

*Local DTT

*UK mainland DTT or IOM depending on location

*Saorview overspill

*The RTE minimux


Although not yet disclosed the most likely minimux frequencies for Black Mountain would be E48 (currently used at pre-DSO Divis) or E59 used by TG4 analogue at Black Mountain.

If E48 was used Black Mountain could possibly operate as an SFN with Carnmoney Hill which remains a Group B transmitter after DSO. This would provide excellent coverage of the Greater Belfast area including East Antrim and North Down. Note that either of these two frequencies will have their coverage clipped in South and East Down by high power DTT at Moel-y-Parc (E48) or Winter Hill (E59).

One complication is that Divis is reverting to Group A post-DSO for its standard services so those who hadn't put in widebands or Group K could have problems in receiving the minimux. In North Antrim the absence of Limavady is probably due to cost and overspill coverage but this means the marketing will be tricky as viewers in those areas will find RoI channels in the 800s. I wonder if the marketing implications of that have been thought through yet.

We'll see soon enough...

Richard

sesswhat wrote: »

Except that in this case Northern Ireland clearly is part of the intended coverage area.

But they have to class it as overspill for legal reasons.

Sam Russell

The MOU called for a unification of the technical standards so that equipment would work with both standards. I take this to mean there would be a move to make the FreeviewHD standard and Saorview standard would work with each other. This would, hopefully, fix the summertime problem with Freeview HD, and that series link would work with both systems. The EPG would (should) populate from both systems to one full EPG. Hopefully, the D Book would be ammended to allow (force) the ability to renumber station to a prefered order to overcome the 800s problem.

Digifriendly

Sam Russell wrote: »

The MOU called for a unification of the technical standards so that equipment would work with both standards. I take this to mean there would be a move to make the FreeviewHD standard and Saorview standard would work with each other. This would, hopefully, fix the summertime problem with Freeview HD, and that series link would work with both systems. The EPG would (should) populate from both systems to one full EPG. Hopefully, the D Book would be ammended to allow (force) the ability to renumber station to a prefered order to overcome the 800s problem.

This one full epg issue seems to the problem I'm having with Sony Freeview HD Twin Tuner PVR. I cannot timer record from both Freeview and Saorview as only one programme will be recorded but I can manually record from both by directly pressing record button. Problem seems to lie with epg. I recorded CL football on a timer from RTE2 2 days ago but when watching BBC1 at same time as Saorview programme was being recorded I noticed the programme information on the BBC1 programme banner was very bare as was the case with other Freeview channels. Then after the recording had finished the programme information on Freeview channels went back to normal. Another problem is that I keep losing Saorview channels overninght and have to manually reinstall them. This is even with masthead amp kept on during daily Sony update (I need amplifier to receive Saorview).

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

RTÉ, yesterday, published the tender for the provision of multiplexing and distribution services and/or broadcast transmission services for its Northern Ireland mini-mux.

http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV287941

- Joint Venture (JV) company to be established
Northern Ireland (N.I.) Multiplex Company Ltd. (a joint venture to be established between RTÉ and TG4)
Murray House, Murray Street
Belfast BT1 6DN

Above was the proposed (14/11/2011) company name to run the multiplex.

Now registered as Multiplex Broadcasting Services N.I. Ltd since 18/11/2011

Originally registered as Sarcon (No.350) Ltd on 23/12/2010 (Sarcon Compliance Limited), just a few days after the official announcement of the new multiplex by the UK Government last year.



MULTIPLEX BROADCASTING SERVICES N.I. LIMITED
MURRAY HOUSE
MURRAY STREET
BELFAST
BT1 6DN
Company No. NI605600

The Cush

Belfast Telegraph article - a discussion with Denis Wolinski, Digital UK's National Manager in Northern Ireland

This from the article

“Northern Ireland’s switchover will complete the UK’s digital project which has been rolled out over the last few years, region by region,” he says.

So why were we last, I ask over the mains of chicken with champ sauce and beautifully breathy lamb tagine? “Only because there is a certain degree of technological inter-reliance between Northern Ireland, GB and the Republic of Ireland,” he says, “and in order to co-ordinate Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland’s switchover (there is a sizeable cross-over of viewers north and south of the border) it made strategic good sense to synchronise the UK’s successful transfer with the Irish one.”


Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-month/passion-drives-technocrat-making-sure-digital-tv-reaches-everyone-16087379.html#ixzz1fo0KUEv9

Mr. Rabbit

If E48 was used Black Mountain could possibly operate as an SFN with Carnmoney Hill which remains a Group B transmitter after DSO. This would provide excellent coverage of the Greater Belfast area including East Antrim and North Down.

Could be a problem in this area where a lot of people have Clermont Cairn and Divis diplexed into the one downlead. The RTE aerial also receives Carnmoney Hill, to a greater or lesser extent.

Ronnie Raygun

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Could be a problem in this area where a lot of people have Clermont Cairn and Divis diplexed into the one downlead. The RTE aerial also receives Carnmoney Hill, to a greater or lesser extent.

How is that a problem, regarding SFN operation?

mrdtv2010

There would not be a problem, as any good diplexer will diplex Divis (Group A) and Clermont Carn/Black Mountain/CH. Also Black Mountain is likely to be horizontal and Carnmoney is vertical, but we have to see the final disposition of frequencies and network configurations which are not disclosed yet.

reslfj

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

There would not be a problem, as any good diplexer will diplex Divis (Group A) and Clermont Carn/Black Mountain/CH. Also Black Mountain is likely to be horizontal and Carnmoney is vertical, but we have to see the final disposition of frequencies and network configurations which are not disclosed yet.

With an ERP of 16W and just few relays around - finding a MFN channel within group for Carnmoney Hill should not be a problem.

The 16W minimux signal will be much more robust than the signals from the 16W PSB muxes from Carnmoney Hill.

Lars

lawhec

The problem with a potential Black Mtn/Carnmoney Hill SFN is the tiny guard interval of 1/128. If my calculations are right, someone who is receiving from both transmitters where the distance difference is more than 8.4km may end up with destructive (rather than constructive) interference. Differences in polarisation may be just be enough to allow for some extra elbow room. Also, I wonder if they'll be a vertical polarised transmission component at Black Mountain albeit at lower power than a HP transmission and with different directional characteristics, to give similar coverage to the relay fill-in at the site post-DSO?

Mr. Rabbit

I wonder if they'll be a vertical polarised transmission component at Black Mountain albeit at lower power than a HP transmission and with different directional characteristics, to give similar coverage to the relay fill-in at the site post-DSO ?

Wondered about that myself Lawhec, since the vertical polerisation at Clermont Cairn is the exception rather than the rule in the ROI.

I suppose we'll have to wait until the technical details of the mini mux are released to find out.

Mr. Rabbit

Channel 5 analogue to close as early as February 2012 ?

While browsing, I found this bit of info.:

http://answerpot.com/showthread.php?3206114-Channel+5+switchoff+-+Black+Mountain%3F

We were at Lisnagarvey this morning for a briefing and got talking to one of Arqiva's Spectrum
planning team. A plan has been floated to switch off channel 5 analogue from Black Mountain as early
as February to allow the current C5 antenna removed and replaced by an wrap round antenna for this
new RTE mux scheme.

The original plan was to re-use the current antenna at Divis or what they're calling S3 to broadcast this
mux, to put it mildly there is no money to re-engineer to the current mast at Divis. It was also mentioned
that the planning application to keep the current mast is a temporary one and after DSO is complete moves
will be made to remove the mast, the National Trust are bitterly opposed to two masts up there and the band 2 gear will migrate to the new mast.

As such Divis is not included in the new scheme anymore and the listed ERP for Black Mountain is 1.6Kw,
BBC National 12B services went live on the new mast at Divis and the analogue channels will move to the new
mast why i have no idea? Carnmoney Hill has been chosen as the other Belfast site to host the RTE mux and
also the commercial multiplex, Colinward will close and no longer support broadcast services.

It does go against the Good Friday Agreement that Divis isn't being used for the RTE scheme but i guess the
massive pot of DSO money is well and truly spent

.

and a reply:

There's no sign of any information on closing Channel 5 Black Mountain early
in the 1-year-out Installer Newsletter published on Wednesday:

http:www.digitaluk.co.uk/transmitternetwork/tools__and__resources/almanac/
installer_newsletters_2009_pdfs/Northern_Ireland_12MO_Final.pdf

Channel 5 have recently launched a Northern Ireland advertising region:

http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/news/1079981/Channel-5-launch-Northern-Ireland-ad
-region/

It seems very unlikely that they would permit their most powerful
terrestrial transmitter in the region to be switched off after introducing
this new ad region.

The only other early Channel 5 switch-offs I'm aware of were Fawley -
lower-power than Rowridge digital muxes anyway - and Chelmsford (Baker's
wood) , where it was estimated that only a few hundred homes would not be
able to get it from either Sudbury high-power PSB2, or Crystal Palace
low-power Mux 2.


Black Mountain's power level for the RTÉ mux is given as minimum 1 kW,
maximum 2 kW in RTÉ's project/bid documents:

http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/niproject/

That suggests it will be directional. It will also transmit from Brougher
Mountain at 1 kW and from Carnmoney Hill at 16W.

I don't see the weight of antennas for relatively low-power use being a
problem. The only reason might be the height. Obviously the Band II aerial
on top, carrying Cool FM, would prevent a cantilever being added, but the
height was originally limited to 750ft due to the proximity to their airport
according to http://tx.mb21.co.uk/info/405/itv/n_ireland.shtml .

Is the mast at Black Mountain the original, that used to carry an average 50
kW Band III array? I'd expect that to be larger/heavier than the skew-fire
UHF panel array for Channel 5. Does anyone have pictures from before 1985?

There don't yet appear to be any planning applications for this. Arqiva
submitted an application to replace the existing stay block fencing in May.
The previous application for the site, Z/2008/0018/F, is described as
"Installation of 6 tiers of 4x panel antennas on the existing mast, 2x GPS
antennas and 2x 1.2m satellite dishes". Unfortunately the documents aren't
on the NI DOE planning website. 6 tiers of 4 UHF panels would sound like a
cantilever though!

Black Mountain was to be part of the Digital 2 network on 11A - it was
included in an update to the GE06 plan, GE06/15 - but this didn't launch,
and I can't see that the assigned 1.8 kW power level would have required
this much aerial! The local ensemble on 12D launched in 2001, so I'd be
surprised if any changes to this had been planned.


At Tacolneston it appears that the analogue channels were broadcast from the
new mast, briefly, for testing purposes (according to the Twitter user that
Sean linked to earlier); this might be happening again at Divis.

Divis and Black Mountain are usually treated as being co-located as they're
only a little over a mile apart. The Geneva 2006 plan assigns C37 to Divis,
Black Mountain is not mentioned (for TV). Ofcom are also indicating Black
Mountain as an alternative site to Divis for the 600 MHz 'lower released
spectrum', C31-C37, should it be used for TV, in the specification for
Arqiva's reference offer.


As for pots of money, there was never any pot for digital switchover
technical aspects. That has all been funded by Arqiva (and NGW when still a
separate company) borrowing, being paid back through the broadcasters'
access charges. The DSO slice of the BBC licence fee funds the Switchover
Help Scheme. I'm sure I've seen reports that both Arqiva's technical
projects and the BBC help scheme are running under budget. If that is the
case, the Arqiva charges are subject to review in 2014; the remaining help
scheme funds have already been allocated by the government to fund broadband
services.

If any unforeseen costs occur, there is already contingency in the charges,
and the charges could be revised upwards at contract reviews. The Oxford
fire was probably a Standard Risk and therefore included in the contingency
budget.

Of course that wouldn't apply to the addition of this multiplex - you can't
expect the operators of the other six muxes to pay anything toward that. If
anything they'd expect their costs at Brougher Mountain and Carnmoney Hill
to be reduced with an additional sharer.

Ronnie Raygun

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

While browsing, I found this bit of info

Sam hasn't posted anything here in a while....

Sponge Bob

Ch5 has just appeared on the EPG for Sky boxes used as freesat units in recent weeks.

Mr. Rabbit

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Sam hasn't posted anything here in a while....

Indeed Ronnie, hope he doesn't come on and start giving off that the above info. is supposed to be confidential etc. etc. etc.

However, since it's on the internet it must be in the public domain ??????

Still, it would explain why they're using Black mountain and not the old mast at Divis which, it would appear, will now be decommissioned some time after DSO (due to objections by the National Trust).

I also don't think Black Mountain is as close as slightly over a mile from Divis. I'd reckon 3 miles at least, just looking at the terrain.

I'd hardly think there too many people watching Channel 5 in analogue these days ether, so dismantling the current 50 kw transmitter in February to make way for RTE would make a lot of sense.

Peter Rhea

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I also don't think Black Mountain is as close as slightly over a mile from Divis. I'd reckon 3 miles at least, just looking at the terrain.

About a mile & a half by my reckoning.

I'd hardly think there too many people watching Channel 5 in analogue these days ether, so dismantling the current 50 kw transmitter in February to make way for RTE would make a lot of sense.

I would think that anyone who can't get Channel 5 on Freeview from Divis would have very poor or nonexistant reception of the analogue transmissions from BM so even the present low powered Freeview will do the same job until DSO.

reslfj

Peter Rhea wrote: »

...I would think that anyone who can't get Channel 5 on Freeview from Divis would have very poor or nonexistant reception of the analogue transmissions from BM so even the present low powered Freeview will do the same job until DSO.

If channel Five analogue stopped - why not use UHF channel 37 at - say - 20kW for the DVB-T2 HD mux?

This would give NI/Belfast channel 5 and BB1, BBC2, ITV + C4 on FreeviewHD some six month ahead of DSO NI and well before the Olympics.

Would it be much more than just moving the current temporary DVB-T2 transmitter from Crystal Palace to Black Mountain after April 18 (DSO2 London) and retune it from channel 31 to 37 ????
I think NOT !!!

Lars

PS! Maybe even another temporary DVB-T2 5kW ERP transmitter can be found to replace "Derry/Londonderry C5 analogue" on channel 31 for the same 5-6 months.

mrdtv2010

Channel 37 part of the Ofcom 600 MHz auction: cannot be used. Interim arrangements not favoured by Arqiva and DUK, also lack of necessary technical resources as London/Meridian DSO in full swing up to June 2012.

Peter Rhea

Not even on a temporary basis? Ah, I see your edit but I would think there have been a fair few 'interim' arrangements already.

reslfj

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Channel 37 part of the Ofcom 600 MHz auction: cannot be used. Interim arrangements not favoured by Arqiva and DUK, also lack of necessary technical resources as London/Meridian DSO in full swing up to June 2012.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Not even on a temporary basis? ..... I would think there have been a fair few 'interim' arrangements already.

The 600Mhz - here ch37 - need not be cleared before 2013.
I fail to se any problems using channel 37 for DTT from BM in 2012.

The 50kW ERP analogue is agreed with ROI - 20 kW ERP digital on the same channel, from the same mast and from the same antenna.
This should be a very small operation - everything can be prepared in NI during this winter.
The OPEX would likely be the same or lower than the current analogue C5 cost.

Remember Pontop Pike / Tyne Tees - the other late TV-region - did get a temporary HD mux.

Lars

Digifriendly

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I'd hardly think there too many people watching Channel 5 in analogue these days ether, so dismantling the current 50 kw transmitter in February to make way for RTE would make a lot of sense.

According to Television Viewer's Guide 2011 the current transmitter at Black Mountain for Ch. 5 is 1.1Kw.

reslfj

Digifriendly wrote: »

According to Television Viewer's Guide 2011 the current transmitter at Black Mountain for Ch. 5 is 1.1Kw.

Ofcom doesn't think so:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/reception_advice/regions/view_transmitters.asp-itv_region_id=12&channel5=true.html

Station Name          Ch 5   ERP      Ae. Grp  Pol     Ae. Ht. AOD
Black Mountain C5     37     [B]50kW[/B]     A        H       518

Lars

Mr. Rabbit

ITV

Well, definitely not ITV 1 HD, nor UTV HD. UTV HD still only exists for Virgin media viewers.

Even after all this time (several years now) a vast majority of NI viewers have no access to channel 3 in HD. An absolulute Bl***y disgrace that UTV can set the agenda on this.

In fact, more to the point, UTV HD isn't even a gauranteed certainty after DSO next year, at least not according to Digital UK's postcode checker.

Put in an NI postcode and you'll discover we'll only have access to 3 Freeview HD channels post DSO (4 when channel 5 HD starts on Freeview)

GRRRRRRRRRRR$R :mad::mad::mad::mad:




Most likely transmitter - Carnmoney HillNorthern Ireland

• 10 Oct 2012 - Stage 1
• 24 Oct 2012 - Stage 2

Good
Up to 18 channels available +
3 HD channels

lawhec

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I also don't think Black Mountain is as close as slightly over a mile from Divis. I'd reckon 3 miles at least, just looking at the terrain.

About a mile & a half by my reckoning.

I'd hardly think there too many people watching Channel 5 in analogue these days ether, so dismantling the current 50 kw transmitter in February to make way for RTE would make a lot of sense.

I would think that anyone who can't get Channel 5 on Freeview from Divis would have very poor or nonexistant reception of the analogue transmissions from BM so even the present low powered Freeview will do the same job until DSO.

I remember a decade ago when living around Jordanstown, I didn't have DTT reception at the time, the area is primarily covered by the Carnmoney Hill relay. Reception from Divis on analogue 1-4 was strong, but suffered from horrendous multipath that made the pictures unwatchable. On the other hand, Channel 5 reception from Black Mountain had next to no ghosting on its picture and signal strength was good - it did suffer from co-channel interference on high pressure days though.

mrdtv2010

reslfj wrote: »

The 600Mhz - here ch37 - need not be cleared before 2013.
I fail to se any problems using channel 37 for DTT from BM in 2012.

The 50kW ERP analogue is agreed with ROI - 20 kW ERP digital on the same channel, from the same mast and from the same antenna.
This should be a very small operation - everything can be prepared in NI during this winter.
The OPEX would likely be the same or lower than the current analogue C5 cost.

Remember Pontop Pike / Tyne Tees - the other late TV-region - did get a temporary HD mux.

Lars

Won't happen: Arqiva won't make any interim investments, neither will a cash strapped RTE who have to foot the bill. The infrastructure installed will be the final infrastructure in order to make it a clean DUK marketing message.

The reason why Pontop Pike got an interim T2 transmitter is because it is a very significant population area compared to NI: you can look up the coverage numbers on the usual websites. Its the economics as always.