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Roundabouts [or] lights?
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antoobrien wrote: »And people actually believe the muck this character comes out with. Then again he has a degree in history and politics, not in CE or architecture - so anything that comes out of his mouth should have about as much impact as mine (my degree is in software, at least we're thought how to look at a problem systematically) - except he writes for the times, so he gets to spout his rubbish across the country.
[...]
Liffey Valley as you should well know is due to corruption - direct bribes of officials - or have you been listening to the coverage Moriarty tribunal since 1997?
Were there problems with the M50 - yes. Can we learn from them - we'd better (oh wait that's where the journo's history degree will come in handy).
You've mentioned in earlier posts about KMS's report in 2007 that areas in Knocknacarra, Bushypark, Menlo, Castlegar, Barna and Briarhill will be opened up. Since my family live near Briarhill we know about the plans for Briarhill, we have seen the proposals from the city council (several years ago, i don't know if they were ever published or just copies given out to interested parties). Throw in Arduan and it seems that the City & County councils are actually doing their jobs an planning for the population growth coming down the line.
I apologise for the roundabout way of getting to this - and the delay in the response, but this next bit needed appropriate research and consideration.
The point of all this is that the reason for the traffic problems in Galway is quite simple - the population has grown faster than our infrastructure. I got all these figures from the census website. I've gone back to the 50s because that is the start of the expansion of Galway as a city (Old Mervue etc were started in the 40s/50s).
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A quick analysis of these figures, between 1956 & 1981 Galway's population almost doubled. Since 1981 it's up a further 67%, making the city 3 times more populated than it was in the late 60s - by which stage, most of the roads we have in town were built.
[...]
This undermines the argument that because Bothar na dTreabh was built employers and stores are coming to Galway, that the bypass is being built because of people being greedy, and that they will come if you build it. People and employers have been coming to Galway for a long time anyways.
[...]
So in order of priority and delivery for transport I believe we need:
1) A road system that can handle a population of 150,000 people within the city AND the associated traffic from the wider Galway area (approaching 250k) - for this we require a bypass (to make room for) - the reason for 150,000 is that by the time we build a road for 100,000 it'll already be over capacity.
2) A comprehensive public transport system, including P&R at or near the bypass junctions and bus routes/shuttle running to & from the City center. I don't believe that a rail system is feasible for Galway, unless it's an underground system, which will be far too expensive - I shudder when I see suggested gluas routes running through the most congested roads in the country, which aren't even wide enough for a bus lane let alone two side by side trams.
Finally, I think if we are to continue this conversation, we should enlist the help of one of the mods to break this out into a development/planning thread - we're gone way OT here
Your post above is too long to quote in full.
1. Frank McDonald is a journalist and author, and has been so for the last few decades. He has been Environment Editor of the Irish Times for the last ten years. He has also received several awards for his work, and just last year he was made an honorary member of the RIAI. Whatever about his taste in jackets, he's got credibility and a proven track record in his chosen career. By way of contrast, your ad hominem sneering is just a cheap shot, about on a par with the kind of stuff seen in the Sunday Independent or similar rags.
2. References to other matters such as the M50 are off-topic only insofar as they don't relate directly to the debate over traffic signals versus roundabouts. The fundamental issues are broadly the same though: endless tinkering with roads in an attempt to alleviate problems caused by bad "planning", car dependence, unsustainable development and political/institutional failure (with or without bribes). Galway City Council/Corporation were warned years ago that their "planning" and transportation policies were taking us down a cul-de-sac clogged with traffic. They chose to ignore those warnings. With luck, lessons will have been learned, but it's far from certain that they will not do the same all over again with a new Bypass (which is what these discussions keep coming back to).
3. The route in Galway City now being targeted for major changes (eg roundabout removal) was originally conceived as a ring road. It is an undeniable fact that the very same was intended for the M50: "The M50 was originally conceived as an orbital route to carry longer distance strategic traffic around and away from the city centre" (Engineers Ireland). And it's not just that muck-spreading rubbish-spouting half-educated "character" Frank McDonald saying that this plan was seriously stymied by other developments:[T]here has been a lack of coordination and strategic planning in the Metropolitan Area with regard to business location. The emergence of major employment centres at the edge of the city, particularly in close proximity to the M50, has resulted in a further extension of the commuter belt and has increased traffic congestion from cross city trips. It has led to an urban pattern which is increasingly difficult to serve by public transport. (Dublin Regional Authority, 2004)In 2004 an editorial in the Irish Independent called the M50 "a monument to bad planning". Again, not dissimilar to the situation in Galway, though on a much larger scale. Planning a ring road, adding roundabouts and shoving in car-dependent developments willy-nilly all combine to limit sustainable transit potential. The replacement of roundabouts with signalised junctions is an attempt at redressing that balance.
Many if not most of the objections raised amount to little more than car-centric special pleading that takes no account of public transport in particular. Free flow of "traffic", ie cars, is the only game in town as far as some pundits are concerned. Looking out from behind a steering wheel, these car-bound complainers see no merit in automatic bus-priority systems, for example, which cannot be facilitated by roundabouts.
4. "The point of all this is that the reason for the traffic problems in Galway is quite simple - the population has grown faster than our infrastructure." That's not simple, it's simplistic and facile. In addition to overall population growth you also have to factor in particular demographic trends, spatial planning, local and national government policy, economic influences etc. The growth in population was, or should have been, predictable. Traffic congestion and its twin, car dependence, didn't just evolve in some organic way. Population growth per se doesn't determine where people live and how they travel from A to B.
Someone with power (if not accountability) decided the what and where regarding A and B. For example, given the "planning" process in place up to quite recently (not sure of the year when it changed -- 1997?) the City Manager personally signed off on developments that had been granted approval. Thus the City Manager at the time knew full well, for instance, that disconnected cul-de-sac housing estates were being built in the overwhelmingly residential west of the city, even as "industrial" development was being promoted on the east side. Such "planning" was totally inimical to the provision of public transport and seriously impaired mobility and access for sustainable transport modes like walking and cycling.
What aspect of population growth determines that a majority of Galwegians travel by car even on short trips of 2-4km or even less? How does the presence of more citizens make it inevitable that most children travel to school by car (some Secondary students even driving themselves) while the bus users have to make do with an inadequate service and those that walk or cycle have to run the gauntlet of dangerous parking and even more dangerous driving (all under the totally apathetic noses of the Council and Garda Siochana)? What did your perusal of the Census statistics tell you about the long-term decline in public transport, walking and cycling as a means of getting around the city? Was there any explanation in there as to why I and so many of my classmates used to regularly walk and cycle to school, whereas in the 2006 census Galway City had the dubious honour of being the last place in the country where more girls still cycle to school than actually drive their own cars?
These are cultural and demographic trends that have little or nothing to do with the building of more roads, and a lot more to do with political choices and (IMO) failures of leadership and vision. Perhaps it's all part of the "closer to Boston than Berlin" ideology we've been inflicted with for years.
5. I agree with you about the need for a comprehensive public transport system. However, since this is Ireland I am wary of the claims and justifications regarding the need for a Bypass and therefore I would make public transport and related measures the top priority by far.
The GCOB is still a long way off and in the meantime a lot more could be done to get unnecessary traffic off the streets and make the existing infrastructure much more conducive to sustainable transit.
Here's my list, not necessarily complete and in no particular order: quality bus corridors, adaptive traffic control systems that prioritise buses etc (not possible with roundabouts, btw), Park & Ride facilities around the city outskirts, cordon charges, car-pooling schemes, a large city-centre 30 kph zone, more car-free streets, effective control of speeding throughout the entire city, effective control of illegal parking, a HGV management strategy, removal of some city-centre car parking, a huge increase in bike parking, a free bike scheme, high-quality dedicated cycleways where appropriate.
As well as being healthier for society and individuals, I'll bet such a shopping list of measures would cost far less than the reported €300 million for a Bypass.
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Great picture of all those Brompton Bikes in that second pic!
The standard/normal ratio is 10 bike stands to 1 car parking spot. http://www.cyclehoop.com/ UK based Company make the following stand which illustrates this visually
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SYNERGY_RC wrote: »They should fit zebra crossings to the roundabouts that we have to make walking or cycling less dangerous. As that TD had stated a zebra crossing costs about 5000 euro where a pedestrian controled crossings (not for trafic juction, only for pedestrian) is about 150,000 and then add maintenance of said lights. And then fit CCTV at zebra crossings to act as the big stick to make driver's stop when a pedestrian needs to cross.
Moneenageisha traffic light junction worked in one main way and that was to make it safer to pedestrian's , which is great but they have forgoten about the main users of the junction which is the automobile.
There need's to be more driver, pedestrian and cyclist training of how to use ALL junction's properly and more enforcement by the Garda of people who use them dangerously i.e. breaking fully red lights (3or 4 cars at a time coming fromDunnes stores).
I live in Renmore and they fitted pedestrian controled crossings (lights) on Renmore road and they stopped working for about a month, they could have fitted a zebra crossings for a lot cheaper of a price and would work a lot faster for everyone as the pedestrianonly has to wait for a few seconds at to edge of crossing to make sure the driver stops and the driver can drive away when the pedestrians clear, like they used to have in Eyre Square.
I would like to see who has share's in these traffic light fitting and maintenance companies as there seams to be a lot more been fitted around the place where a zebra crossings would make more sence.
I'm sick of sitting at lights at 3am in the morning when there's notthing arould, so I for one want to keep the roundabout but they need to be make safer for every road user.
Point of information: how would zebra crossings work for cyclists?
Firstly, bicycles are classed as vehicles under Irish law and as such are legally required to be on the road. This might seem pedantic, except if a collision occurs perhaps.
Secondly, AFAIK zebra crossings are set perpendicular to the road and stretch from one footpath to the other on the opposite side. If cyclists are to use zebra crossings, to improve their safety allegedly, then will they not have to go on the footpaths, which would be illegal and probably not safer for pedestrians either?
BTW, in what way is "the automobile" the "main user" of the Moneenageisha junction? There are bus routes going through it, and there also also many pedestrians and cyclists. Around 48% of people in Galway City commute by walking, cycling or bus. They require a decent level of service now, even if it was not well-established national policy to promote such travel modes into the future. A large number of cars contributing to Galway's woeful traffic congestion are single occupant only, possibly a majority of them. Are we to formulate public policy for people or cars?
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how about a daring third option?: roundabouts with timed lights - i mean we only need lights to create a fair driving field during the rush hours but do we really need lights after 9 o'clock? yowsa, there's off-the-shelf technology in existence that allows for the the quick implementation of this but typically we look at either \ or options instead of thinking about other combinations or alternatives.
but i know, let's commission a consultant to write a report and then let's reinvent the roundabout and traffic lights to suit our unique Galway driving conditions like we tend to do with everything other thing. :rolleyes:
🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️
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