What's the 'most Irish' Premier League club?

LimeTime

adox wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the LOI fans don't support Madrid.

Real football and all that.

They might argue that you can't ''support'' someone from an armchair?

Gavin "shels"

yosemite_sam wrote: »

He is right though, Celtic are as near to being Irish club as you can get. The way they were formed, they are a focal point for the Irish in Scotland and their descendants. Celtic are without doubt the most Irish club not in Ireland

:eek:

adox wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the LOI fans don't support Madrid.

Real football and all that.

Madrid is in Spain though. Some people on herer really need to go back over their Leaving Cert geography course.

applehunter

Gavin shels wrote: »

:eek:

There are strong Irish links with Celtic. Don't play dumb.

Gavin shels wrote: »

Madrid is in Spain though. Some people on herer really need to go back over their Leaving Cert geography course.

Think you missed punchline of the lame joke.

Gavin "shels"

applehunter wrote: »

There are strong Irish links with Celtic. Don't play dumb.




Think you missed punchline of the lame joke.

Strong links, still a British club though.

Nah didn't missed it, just ignored it.

nullzero

adox wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the LOI fans don't support Madrid.

Real football and all that.

Funny, but doesn't Real = Royal?

Zebra3

Het-Field wrote: »

Second. Are the respective leagues of Scotland, Norway, and Denmark as centralised as the National League ? Of the Premier League's 10 representatives, almost half are from Dublin (if you consider Bray Wanderers from Dublin), while another two are from Louth, which is merely an hour from Dublin. In the first division, we have a further representative from Dublin in Shelbourne FC, and a further two Galway representatives in Mervue and Salthill Devons. Essentially, of a 21 team entity, almost half come from three counties. The main problem with this is the lack of identity this promotes amongst the teams from centralised areas.

So people identify with clubs that fly the Union Jack instead? It doesn't matter how many clubs in the league are in Dublin or Galway. Irish sports "fans" are generally gloryhunters. The rise of the provincial rugby sides is proof of that. I've never heard any Irish person answer a "where you from?" question by stating their province.

Anyway, clubs have been in the league from counties like Tipp and Kildare and have failed.

Het-Field wrote: »

Third. It is natural that the EPL doesnt provoke as much interest in Denmark as it doesn in Ireland. The componants of our national team are almost exclusively based in the UK, while Denmark's national team would be more disparate, and would have more representatives in its domestic league then our National Team does.

There is a huge interest in the EPL in Denmark. The difference is that most EPL fans in Denmark would also follow a Danish club.

walrusgumble

flas wrote: »

no its not. you obviously have very little if any interest in the LOI to say that there is no excitment in it! its as topsy turvy as they come! soap oipera writers couldnt make up half the stuff!!

maybe we should all just support spain, going by your reckoning we should just support the best in the world!

the LOI is played in a country with a population of little over 4 million. people try and compare it to the english premier league as a barometer for how "good" it is. england has a population of over 60 million, all this is related to the standard of leagues, more people, more of an audience, more money= better standard.

i miss the flood light games during the winter.anyone who knows a shamrock or sligo rovers fan will know how special last year was. same with longford years ago.results in europe improved.christ, people at my club still talk about their crusade from 30 years ago

losthorizon

adox wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the LOI fans don't support Madrid.

Real football and all that.

Ahh the armchair supporter picks the best "real". LOI fans would get a right royal roasting if they supported Madrid.

citytillidie

Warper wrote: »

Liverpool refused to sign Irish players in the 50's and 60's. They had a No Irish policy. Why do you think Everton is the Catholic club and Liverpool the Protestant club of Liverpool.

Where is the proof of this policy?, and are you ignoring the other post about both teams being set up by the same people and church which is not Catholic.

So Liverpool had a player from Ireland in 52-54.

No more until Highway until 1970

Before Sammy Smyth the last one before him was 1938.

Does not mean there was a no Irish policy.

Also don't forget from 54 until 62 there were in division 2 so may have stayed local to keep costs down, and then struggled when back in division 1 to sign better players.

Het-Field

flas wrote: »

firstly, in norway, football is the 3rd most watched sport on norwegian televison, so that would suggest that yes, football in norway has big competition from other sports.in norway only 8.5% of the population play football, here that figure is around the 16% mark.
people can follow more than one sport though. scotland also has the magners league in rugby, but football would be the most widely followed sport there.
in denmark the mix of sports is a bit more diverse than here, with golf and handball being the sports competiting with football. there is nearlly 150,000 registered hand ball players in denmark, its huge over there, but i would argue that no matter if they are so into their handball they will still go to their local football matches if they have an interest in it aswell.

secondly, in scotland there is only 4 teams from outside the centre of scotland, in aberdeen, inverness and dundee. the majority of teams are from glasgow or the glasgow suburbs, and a small few from edinburgh, which evidently is around an hours drive from glasgow, so they are all centralised in the way irish football is.
in norway up until the 70's teams from the north of the country were not permitted to enter the league, and now there is only one team from the north of the country, of the 16 teams in their tippeligaen, 7 are from the same area, sound oslo, exactly like the amount of teams based around dublin, but oslo has a smaller population than dublin.
denmarks 12 teams in the superliga is still based in an area half the size of ireland, its a highly populated country, there is not a great degree of distance between the teams!

thirdly this is part of my point, the players feel like they have to move, because the LOI is not precieved as being big enough or of a high enough standard to allow the players to play international football. if more people go to the games, more interest in the games then there is more money then better players. seriously, one follows the other, its not that hard to imagine!

fourth i dont know where the investment is going to come from! if we were getting the same attendances as the lowest attended league from these countries we would have 3 to 4 times the revenue streams from attendances alone, then factor in media coverage that would jump from the increase in people attending the games, then the big sponsorships start as there is a bigger audience to sell products to. its all relative.

hope i answered your questions, i did as best i could, its been a long day!

Thank you for the response. It is refreshing to see a poster deal with every point in detail.

I will agree that the Norweigen Sporting Market is clearly somewhat competitive. However, I would like to know exactly what sports are outflanking football, and what impact they have on sports which are in direct competition with them. There is no doubt that Gaelic Football directly impacts on the numbers playing association football. I know that they are not powerhouses of Hockey (field or Ice), Rugby (Union or League), Cricket, or Basketball. Like the Danes they have a strong history in handball, however, it is questionable how transferrable the two skills are, and thus, it is arguable that the sports are not in direct competition.

Scottish Rugby has been in the doldrums for almost 10 years. In fact, the decline of Scottish Rugby has mirrored the rise to prominance of the Irish National team, and the provincial game. For the first time in many years I noticed at the recent Scotland v Italy international, that large pockets of seats in Murryfield were empty. This is reflective of a declining interest in the game in Scotland. Scotland also has significant teams in Glasgow Rangers, and Glasgow Celtic, who are significantly bigger then any team the LOI has to offer at the moment.

I have already questioned comparisons with handball. However, I think seeking to call Golf a competitive sport with soccer is a tenuious assertion at best, and I would like to see firm proof that golf is picking off potential soccer players.

I will conceed the point on the centralisation of teams in comparison to Ireland.However, that is based on my willingness to trust your claims, and my lack of knowledge of the geography of the respective countries that we asre discussing.

Historically, the best Irish players have moved to play cross channel soccer. In fact, many of the league's best players have attempted to break into the British game before cutting their losses, returning home, and becoming top players in the LOI. The likes of Dessie Baker, Gary Twigg, Glenn Crowe, Paddy Flynn, Ollie Cahill, Pat Scully, Tony Sheridan etc all benefitted from their experiences in England, and the league as better for their presence.

It is also arguable that the better facilites available in the UK, the increased exposure available, the potential involvement in giant-killing cup exercises, and the greater potential for International recognition all make the English game a more attractive proposition.

More punters walking through the gate will not guarantee a willingness of top players to stay, return, or gravitate towards the LOI. Better stadia are required, better training facilities are a must, uncertainty as to players contractual status must be alleviated, and top coaches should be head-hunted. The entire footballing experience of the LOI player must be considered, and light must be shed on how decent it actually is.

losthorizon

Het-Field wrote: »

First, are these countries competing with a indigenous sport like the National League is required to ? Without considering the impact of the GAA on all other sports in Ireland, then your arguments will be weakened considerably. The increase in interest in Rugby and regular Magners League games must have had some impact on the league.

Second. Are the respective leagues of Scotland, Norway, and Denmark as centralised as the National League ? Of the Premier League's 10 representatives, almost half are from Dublin (if you consider Bray Wanderers from Dublin), while another two are from Louth, which is merely an hour from Dublin. In the first division, we have a further representative from Dublin in Shelbourne FC, and a further two Galway representatives in Mervue and Salthill Devons. Essentially, of a 21 team entity, almost half come from three counties. The main problem with this is the lack of identity this promotes amongst the teams from centralised areas.

Third. It is natural that the EPL doesnt provoke as much interest in Denmark as it doesn in Ireland. The componants of our national team are almost exclusively based in the UK, while Denmark's national team would be more disparate, and would have more representatives in its domestic league then our National Team does.

Fourth, I would like to know where this "investment" will come from ? Our Country is virtually bankrupt.

With regard to Norway and Denmark then yes football is competeing with indigenous sports in those countrys (in fact more than in Ireland). Ice Hockey is huge for example in Norway especially and also Denmark plus there are loads of other winter sports that get big crowds. The representation of clubs from the greater Dublin area actually virtually mirrors the population of the country. 40% of people reside in greater Dublin - 50% of clubs in the Premier Division are from the greater Dublin Division. To then go on and try and claim that Louth is devalued by having clubs is ludicrous. Its just because a motorway was put in place. Waterford for instance is only two hours by road from Dublin now. By throwing in Galway you try and back up your claim but it really just shows the growth of the game in the west. There is now a "form" of promotion and relegation to and from the first division which is how one of the Galway clubs got promoted and may result in other non Dublin clubs getting into the League if they wish

OPENROAD

Gavin shels wrote: »

Why don't you support La Liga so, much better than standard than the EPL. Oh and I take it you support the English national team as they're better than the Oirish one?



Clutching at straws, teams in England = English, teams in Ireland = Irish, teams in Scotland = Scottish and teams in Wales = Welsh. Simple concept tbh.

Thinking of declaring for them

A Dub in Glasgo

Het-Field wrote: »

I will conceed the point on the centralisation of teams in comparison to Ireland.However, that is based on my willingness to trust your claims, and my lack of knowledge of the geography of the respective countries that we asre discussing.

I can vouch for the Scotland geography

Rangers, Celtic, Hamilton, Motherwell & St Mirren are all within a half hour of Glasgow

Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, Hibs & Hearts are all within an hour of Glasgow

Aberdeen, Inverness & Dundee United are more than a couple of hours from Glasgow

UpTheSlashers

Zebra3 wrote: »

Anyway, clubs have been in the league from counties like Tipp and Kildare and have failed.
.

This is a bit off-topic, and Im not saying you're wrong, but which Tipperary club was in the LOI?

losthorizon

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

This is a bit off-topic, and Im not saying you're wrong, but which Tipperary club was in the LOI?

I think it was Thurles Town. When the First division was formed a club called Sporting Club Thurles was elected and joined and was due to play but pulled out at the last moment along with another team which I cant remember

flas

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

This is a bit off-topic, and Im not saying you're wrong, but which Tipperary club was in the LOI?

thurles had a team if im not mistaken...

SM01

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I can vouch for the Scotland geography

Rangers, Celtic, Hamilton, Motherwell & St Mirren are all within a half hour of Glasgow

Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, Hibs & Hearts are all within an hour of Glasgow

Aberdeen, Inverness & Dundee United are more than a couple of hours from Glasgow

Bit of nit-picking but Easter Road certainly isn't! I lived off it on Brunswick Rd. for a year and had many nightmares trying to get to Glasgow. Certainly never made it anyway close to an hour.

CSF

adox wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the LOI fans don't support Madrid.

Real football and all that.

You mean the football fans?

flahavaj

Lahm wrote: »

Stoke City:

Delap, Whelan, Wilson, Walters...

Pennant.:pac:

Laois_Man

England are always on about their famous defeat to Hungary at Wembley as their first ever home defeat. Yet 5 years earlier in 1949, Ireland beat England 2-0 at Goodison Park. This is not considered a home defeat. Why? Because in 1949, the Ireland team was so dominated by Everton players, and the Everton support base was so dominated by Irish emigrants, the game was effectively considered a home game for Ireland. Again in 1995 when Ireland played the Euro '96 qualifying playoff at Anfield, Ireland effectively had that as a home game with huge support from both sides of the Merseyside divide. But that was against Holland.

It wouldn't happen in any EPL ground today that Ireland would effectively have a home game against England from the host clubs local support, but Everton is the only place it has happened, or could have happened.

Hannibal

yosemite_sam wrote: »

Everton are the Catholic team in Liverpool

Liverpool and Everton both have the same Methodist roots so neither are catholic. They both had the same first manager in William Barclay.
Everton were originally called St Domingos which is a Methodist church in the local area

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Any proof that Liverpool was set up by Irishman???

First I heard of it.

John McKenna was his name, he was Liverpools club secretary and joint first manager and later chairman. He hailed from Monaghan

Laois_Man

Dotsey wrote: »

Liverpool and Everton both have the same Methodist roots so neither are catholic. They both had the same first manager in William Barclay.
Everton were originally called St Domingos which is a Methodist church in the local area


John McKenna was his name, he was Liverpools club secretary and joint first manager and later chairman. He hailed from Monaghan

This is all true. But when Everton formed it was the 1870's - and then the split resulting in Liverpool FC forming a few years later! None of this is valid today 133 years after the formation of Everton. Neither club are protestant or catholic. People like Johnny Adair are prominent Liverpool supporters (was even chairman of a local supporers club up North before his exile I believe), as are many catholics north and south. John McKenna himself was a potestant. Likewise, Everton were the Irish supported Merseyside club before the Shankley era when Liverpool started to get more Irish support than Everton....but Everton are also still supported by Irish Catholics and protestants and non-religioners alike - which is how every FOOTBALL club should be!!

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Thank you for the response. It is refreshing to see a poster deal with every point in detail.

I will agree that the Norweigen Sporting Market is clearly somewhat competitive. However, I would like to know exactly what sports are outflanking football, and what impact they have on sports which are in direct competition with them. There is no doubt that Gaelic Football directly impacts on the numbers playing association football. I know that they are not powerhouses of Hockey (field or Ice), Rugby (Union or League), Cricket, or Basketball. Like the Danes they have a strong history in handball, however, it is questionable how transferrable the two skills are, and thus, it is arguable that the sports are not in direct competition.

I would question whether gaelic impacts on football anymore. Football playing numbers are in the region of thrice their levels and I genuinely haven't heard of football losing a talented youngster to gaelic games in many, many yers.

Het-Field wrote: »

Scottish Rugby has been in the doldrums for almost 10 years. In fact, the decline of Scottish Rugby has mirrored the rise to prominance of the Irish National team, and the provincial game. For the first time in many years I noticed at the recent Scotland v Italy international, that large pockets of seats in Murryfield were empty. This is reflective of a declining interest in the game in Scotland. Scotland also has significant teams in Glasgow Rangers, and Glasgow Celtic, who are significantly bigger then any team the LOI has to offer at the moment.

But Scottish football, in terms on league and international standards, has declined in an alarming fashion. There happen to be two huge clubs in Scotland for historical reasons, but they are an anomoly. Rovers were in Europe this season longer than any Scotch side bar Rangers. Its all sports in Scotland in decline.

Het-Field wrote: »

I will conceed the point on the centralisation of teams in comparison to Ireland.However, that is based on my willingness to trust your claims, and my lack of knowledge of the geography of the respective countries that we asre discussing.

Football has never been stronger outside the traditional urban environment. We have had players from Cavan, Tipp, Wexford etc capped recently. The grassroots were planted 20 years ago and there are clubs from Carlow, Kerry, Mayo, Tipp all in the process of becoming LoI sides.

Het-Field wrote: »

Historically, the best Irish players have moved to play cross channel soccer. In fact, many of the league's best players have attempted to break into the British game before cutting their losses, returning home, and becoming top players in the LOI. The likes of Dessie Baker, Gary Twigg, Glenn Crowe, Paddy Flynn, Ollie Cahill, Pat Scully, Tony Sheridan etc all benefitted from their experiences in England, and the league as better for their presence.

Agreed,

Het-Field wrote: »

It is also arguable that the better facilites available in the UK, the increased exposure available, the potential involvement in giant-killing cup exercises, and the greater potential for International recognition all make the English game a more attractive proposition.

That or the money... One of them.

Het-Field wrote: »

More punters walking through the gate will not guarantee a willingness of top players to stay, return, or gravitate towards the LOI. Better stadia are required, better training facilities are a must, uncertainty as to players contractual status must be alleviated, and top coaches should be head-hunted. The entire footballing experience of the LOI player must be considered, and light must be shed on how decent it actually is.

Hold on. This is happening. Look at Rovers. Top grade stadia, huge investment into our training ground, contracts are attracting the best players in the league and from overseas, a manager who played international football and in the EPL, SPL and MLS who has a masters in accounting and is linked with an overseas job every week.

Its a myth that the LoI is badly run compared to other leagues.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its a myth that the LoI is badly run compared to other leagues.

It's not.

Just because one or two clubs are well run does not mean the LoI is not badly run.

Since the FAI took over the LoI at the start of 2007 clubs in Limerick, Cork, Derry, Fingal, and Kildare have all gone out of existence with both Cork and Drogheda having also gone into examinership. That's almost 25% of the LoI clubs gone in about four years. :eek:

Add in the huge financial problems at Shels, Cobh, and Bohs, it's hardly a bed of roses, is it?

I'll admit that some clubs have started to learn from past mistakes, but it's a slow process and some only learn the hard way, others are learning after it's too late.

In saying that, something like 30 clubs in the Football League have gone into the British equivalent of examinership (administration) in the past ten years, and a lot of Premier League clubs are straddled with massive debts, so England is hardly a model of financial competence.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I would question whether gaelic impacts on football anymore. Football playing numbers are in the region of thrice their levels and I genuinely haven't heard of football losing a talented youngster to gaelic games in many, many yers.

But there can't be numbers as to how many players are choosing GAA over soccer at a very young age. These numbers are virtually unascertainable. While I agree that the likes of Shane Long, John O'Shea etc have been huge finds, and almost certainly turned their backs on overtures to play Gaelic Games, it is impossible to ascertain how many John O'Shea's have been lost at a very young age. Take Bernard Brogan for example. Considering that he is a quality tplayer with the ball at his feet, and in his hands, it is amost a dead-cert that the National League have missed out on a man who could be a star.
The same applies to lads like Owen Mulligan, Gooch Cooper, Paul Galvin etc.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But Scottish football, in terms on league and international standards, has declined in an alarming fashion. There happen to be two huge clubs in Scotland for historical reasons, but they are an anomoly. Rovers were in Europe this season longer than any Scotch side bar Rangers. Its all sports in Scotland in decline.

In fairness, Motherwell, Dundee United and Celtic went further then Shamrock Rovers this term. I know they only managed to achieve one more round, but it is fair to say that they went "further". You make a fair point about the decline in Scottish football. The current squads of Celtic and Rangers are a shadow of what they were 10 years ago. The names De Boer, Konterman, Larsson, Hartson, Sutton, Van Bronckhorst, have been replaced by the likes of Diouf, and Samaras.

However, the fact that Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic are the strongest may be less of anomoly, and more to do with the fact that the true nature of the league has come to the fore, and Scotland has come to accept that it can only cater for two "big teams" given the size of the country. It is somewhat of an indictment that only Rangers and Celtic are seen as contenders. However, it has ensured that Scotland usually has a representative at the sharper stages of European Competition.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Football has never been stronger outside the traditional urban environment. We have had players from Cavan, Tipp, Wexford etc capped recently. The grassroots were planted 20 years ago and there are clubs from Carlow, Kerry, Mayo, Tipp all in the process of becoming LoI sides.

That is true. But I think it is permissable to dub the likes of Keith Doyle, Jonathan Douglas, Shane Long etc "Jackie's Junior's" or some David McWilliams' style name involving Jackie Charlton. These players were raised on a diet of World and European Cup football, as the Irish National Team went from strength to strength. I would credit the 94 World Cup as the true spark which stoked a burning interest in football in me. I can imagine that the likes of Kevin Doyle enjoyed the same experience I did in 1994. Thus, I believe the seminal interest in football came less from FAI organisation, and far more from the profligacy of football on the television from 1990 onwards.

Whether these clubs are capable of becoming LOI clubs is another matter. The matchday facilities of some of the new inhabitants of the league are beyond amateur, even if their intentions for growing the club at youth level are very admirable.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

That or the money... One of them..

I would imagine that it is both. However, it is undeniable that there is an allure which accompanies English football, which simply doesnt exist in Ireland.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Hold on. This is happening. Look at Rovers. Top grade stadia, huge investment into our training ground, contracts are attracting the best players in the league and from overseas, a manager who played international football and in the EPL, SPL and MLS who has a masters in accounting and is linked with an overseas job every week.

Its a myth that the LoI is badly run compared to other leagues.

Rovers are the exception rather then the rule. Bohemians are a financial mess, and operate in a run down shack of a stadium. Shelbourne F.C were a financial cripple, with no clarity as to whether they would remain at Tolka Park or not. Cork City F.C and Derry City legally folded. Kildare, Fingal, Kilkenny, and Dublin City folded without a trace. The Drogs are hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and it was by virtue of Fingal's collapse that they are playing Premier League football at all. I think it is fair to say that internally clubs have been very badly run, and the group they affiliate to were no properly keeping an eye on what was going on.

Having recently been to Tallaght Stadium for the first time, I am compelled to agree that it is a fantastic stadium.

OhNoYouDidn't

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not.

Just because one or two clubs are well run does not mean the LoI is not badly run.

Since the FAI took over the LoI at the start of 2007 clubs in Limerick, Cork, Derry, Fingal, and Kildare have all gone out of existence with both Cork and Drogheda having also gone into examinership. That's almost 25% of the LoI clubs gone in about four years. :eek:

Add in the huge financial problems at Shels, Cobh, and Bohs, it's hardly a bed of roses, is it?

I'l admit that some clubs have started to learn from past mistakes, but it's a slow process and some only learn the hard way, others are learning after it's too late.

In saying that, something like 30 clubs in the Football League have gone into the British equivalent of examinership (administration) in the past ten years, and a lot of Premier League clubs are straddled with massive debts, so England is hardly a model of financial competence.

I didn't say it was a bed of roses. I said football has these problems, as your last paragraph indicates. Of the teams you listed, Fingal, Dublin City (daft ideas) and Kildare are the only ones who went bust. Its 3 too many, but all clubs including Real, Barca, Man U, Liverpool etc. are struggling.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

But there can't be numbers as to how many players are choosing GAA over soccer at a very young age. These numbers are virtually unascertainable. While I agree that the likes of Shane Long, John O'Shea etc have been huge finds, and almost certainly turned their backs on overtures to play Gaelic Games, it is impossible to ascertain how many John O'Shea's have been lost at a very young age. Take Bernard Brogan for example. Considering that he is a quality tplayer with the ball at his feet, and in his hands, it is amost a dead-cert that the National League have missed out on a man who could be a star.
The same applies to lads like Owen Mulligan, Gooch Cooper, Paul Galvin etc.

Experience says that top gaelic players never make it as LoI players. Jayo Sherlock didn't scorch the earth at UCD or Rovers. Wasn't bad, but wasn't great.

I think you underestimate how difficult it is to make it as a pro footballer, even here. Entirely different games, and being good at one doesn't mean you will be good at another. If any of those players were good enough to make a living playing football, I suspect they would be doing so.

Het-Field wrote: »

In fairness, Motherwell, Dundee United and Celtic went further then Shamrock Rovers this term. I know they only managed to achieve one more round, but it is fair to say that they went "further". You make a fair point about the decline in Scottish football. The current squads of Celtic and Rangers are a shadow of what they were 10 years ago. The names De Boer, Konterman, Larsson, Hartson, Sutton, Van Bronckhorst, have been replaced by the likes of Diouf, and Samaras.

I don' think they did...

Het-Field wrote: »

However, the fact that Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic are the strongest may be less of anomoly, and more to do with the fact that the true nature of the league has come to the fore, and Scotland has come to accept that it can only cater for two "big teams" given the size of the country. It is somewhat of an indictment that only Rangers and Celtic are seen as contenders. However, it has ensured that Scotland usually has a representative at the sharper stages of European Competition.

Define 'come to accept'? Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen just decided not to bother?

Het-Field wrote: »

That is true. But I think it is permissable to dub the likes of Keith Doyle, Jonathan Douglas, Shane Long etc "Jackie's Junior's" or some David McWilliams' style name involving Jackie Charlton. These players were raised on a diet of World and European Cup football, as the Irish National Team went from strength to strength. I would credit the 94 World Cup as the true spark which stoked a burning interest in football in me. I can imagine that the likes of Kevin Doyle enjoyed the same experience I did in 1994. Thus, I believe the seminal interest in football came less from FAI organisation, and far more from the profligacy of football on the television from 1990 onwards.

What inspired them is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that the FAI provide the coaches, leagues and general football framework to both offer a game to any kid who wants one and spot and mould talent.

Het-Field wrote: »

Whether these clubs are capable of becoming LOI clubs is another matter. The matchday facilities of some of the new inhabitants of the league are beyond amateur, even if their intentions for growing the club at youth level are very admirable.

Who?

Het-Field wrote: »

I would imagine that it is both. However, it is undeniable that there is an allure which accompanies English football, which simply doesnt exist in Ireland.

Because of the money.... Players move overseas from Ireland for two reasons. One is the money. Plain and simple. Second is that the magic portal that exists over the Irish sea. Once a player passes through it, they instantly become contenders for the national team. Fahey was a recent example. He wasn't good enough at Pats but a week later was in a squad at Birmingham. Its wrong, but its the way it is.

Het-Field wrote: »

Rovers are the exception rather then the rule. Bohemians are a financial mess, and operate in a run down shack of a stadium. Shelbourne F.C were a financial cripple, with no clarity as to whether they would remain at Tolka Park or not. Cork City F.C and Derry City legally folded. Kildare, Fingal, Kilkenny, and Dublin City folded without a trace. The Drogs are hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and it was by virtue of Fingal's collapse that they are playing Premier League football at all. I think it is fair to say that internally clubs have been very badly run, and the group they affiliate to were no properly keeping an eye on what was going on.

Thats football, and sport in general. Football sides in all leagues are living hand to mouth, and other sports in Ireland are struggling hard.

Het-Field wrote: »

Having recently been to Tallaght Stadium for the first time, I am compelled to agree that it is a fantastic stadium.

Damn right!

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Experience says that top gaelic players never make it as LoI players. Jayo Sherlock didn't scorch the earth at UCD or Rovers. Wasn't bad, but wasn't great.

I think you underestimate how difficult it is to make it as a pro footballer, even here. Entirely different games, and being good at one doesn't mean you will be good at another. If any of those players were good enough to make a living playing football, I suspect they would be doing so.

The likes of Mick Deegan, and Paul Curren made significant waves in the National League, and the Irish League , while dove-tailing their sporting aspirations with the Dublin GAA team. Rovers clearly felt that Sherlock was good enough to take a punt on.

I have selected very specific examples of GAA players, who are as good with the ball on the ground as they are with the ball in their hands. I completely understand the differences between the games, but I think it would be wrong to dismiss any transferability.

I think your suggestion that GAA players would drop their interest in the sport for a punt at soccer for the monetary reward is speculation. It is impossible to tell which GAA players would do so, as many of them are raised on a diet of GAA, and may see the chance to represent their county as the pinnicle of their sporting experience.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don' think they did....

Celtic, Dundee United and Motherwell all progressed to the play-off round. IIRC correctly, Rovers went out in the Third Round of qualification, which is held before the play off round.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Define 'come to accept'? Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen just decided not to bother?

It certainly has nothing to do with teams accepting the strength of Rangers and Celtic. It is simple "market" style acceptance that Scotland is too small to have major competition in football, and as a result the success is centralised around Celtic and Rangers. My argument is effectively the same as one would proffer for why Irish provinces are so successful in the club rugby game. Rather then only have four divisions of small clubs attempting to compete, it has four large teams, which can compete. Scottish football is somewhat the same, even though it was not intended that way. It has two large teams, with small teams around it.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What inspired them is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that the FAI provide the coaches, leagues and general football framework to both offer a game to any kid who wants one and spot and mould talent.

On the contrary, I believe inspiration is crucial. Without Ireland's international experiences between 1988-2002, Irish soccer would have fallen into complete disrepair.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Who?

Fahy's Field is a prime example. I retract the "beyond amateur" statement, but it cannot be shirked that Fahy's Field is not even close to great. National League standards do not guarantee quality.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Because of the money.... Players move overseas from Ireland for two reasons. One is the money. Plain and simple. Second is that the magic portal that exists over the Irish sea. Once a player passes through it, they instantly become contenders for the national team. Fahey was a recent example. He wasn't good enough at Pats but a week later was in a squad at Birmingham. Its wrong, but its the way it is.

Sorry if I cannot believe you on that one. There is the prestige factor, the greater exposure, and an increase in the quality of facilities which must be taken into account.


Thats football, and sport in general. Football sides in all leagues are living hand to mouth, and other sports in Ireland are struggling hard.



Damn right! [/QUOTE]

flas

Het-Field wrote: »

The likes of Mick Deegan, and Paul Curren made significant waves in the National League, and the Irish League , while dove-tailing their sporting aspirations with the Dublin GAA team. Rovers clearly felt that Sherlock was good enough to take a punt on.

I have selected very specific examples of GAA players, who are as good with the ball on the ground as they are with the ball in their hands. I completely understand the differences between the games, but I think it would be wrong to dismiss any transferability.

I think your suggestion that GAA players would drop their interest in the sport for a punt at soccer for the monetary reward is speculation. It is impossible to tell which GAA players would do so, as many of them are raised on a diet of GAA, and may see the chance to represent their county as the pinnicle of their sporting experience.






Celtic, Dundee United and Motherwell all progressed to the play-off round. IIRC correctly, Rovers went out in the Third Round of qualification, which is held before the play off round.





It certainly has nothing to do with teams accepting the strength of Rangers and Celtic. It is simple "market" style acceptance that Scotland is too small to have major competition in football, and as a result the success is centralised around Celtic and Rangers. My argument is effectively the same as one would proffer for why Irish provinces are so successful in the club rugby game. Rather then only have four divisions of small clubs attempting to compete, it has four large teams, which can compete. Scottish football is somewhat the same, even though it was not intended that way. It has two large teams, with small teams around it.







On the contrary, I believe inspiration is crucial. Without Ireland's international experiences between 1988-2002, Irish soccer would have fallen into complete disrepair.





Fahy's Field is a prime example. I retract the "beyond amateur" statement, but it cannot be shirked that Fahy's Field is not even close to great. National League standards do not guarantee quality.







Sorry if I cannot believe you on that one. There is the prestige factor, the greater exposure, and an increase in the quality of facilities which must be taken into account.


Thats football, and sport in general. Football sides in all leagues are living hand to mouth, and other sports in Ireland are struggling hard.



Damn right!

[/QUOTE]

to be fair if the players wanted this and not the big money they would be going to the bundesliga, the best supported league in europe, with argueably the best facilities throughout the world! (steming from hosting the 2006 world cup, major upgrades happened in all the stadiums and football facilities throughout germany)! but then again the german sides dont pay as much as english teams! its not as if it has anything to do with quality, the german league has a team in semi finals of champions league, bayern got to the final last year, teams progressing further in europa league than english teams etc.

Predator_

Has to be Man Utd or Liverpool based solely on the number of fans. No prem team has any history with Ireland like say Celtic does with Irish people.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

The likes of Mick Deegan, and Paul Curren made significant waves in the National League, and the Irish League , while dove-tailing their sporting aspirations with the Dublin GAA team. Rovers clearly felt that Sherlock was good enough to take a punt on.

Mick Deegen and Paul Curran lasted less than a season at poor clubs in the LoI. They were garbage.

Jayo was more of a success, but simply couldn't play full time professional football and intercounty gaelic. Both teams insisted he trained with them, IMO Rovers very reasonably as he was an employee and had to keep a hgher standard of fitness up than gaelic could provide. Something had to give, and he wasn't offered a new contract as a result of not being willing to committ to Rovers properly.

Het-Field wrote: »

I have selected very specific examples of GAA players, who are as good with the ball on the ground as they are with the ball in their hands. I completely understand the differences between the games, but I think it would be wrong to dismiss any transferability.

How do we know they are good on the ground by the way?

Het-Field wrote: »

I think your suggestion that GAA players would drop their interest in the sport for a punt at soccer for the monetary reward is speculation. It is impossible to tell which GAA players would do so, as many of them are raised on a diet of GAA, and may see the chance to represent their county as the pinnicle of their sporting experience.

You dismiss me as specualting and go onto speculate?

Kevin Moran is the only gaelic player of any note who made a career at any level playing football. There have been dozens of 'stars' of the GAA who decided to play LoI football and flopped. Matty Forde, Anthony Tohill, Michael Donnelan. The best gaelic footballers out there and miles off the standard. And Forde failed to cut it at Kilkenny. The standard is WAY higher than you give it credit for. You can't be good at another sport and suddenly decide to become a professional at any other. Never happens.

Het-Field wrote: »

Celtic, Dundee United and Motherwell all progressed to the play-off round. IIRC correctly, Rovers went out in the Third Round of qualification, which is held before the play off round.

You may actually be right, but the point remains. Non-OF Scottish clubs are in or around LoI level when it comes to European progression.

Het-Field wrote: »

It certainly has nothing to do with teams accepting the strength of Rangers and Celtic. It is simple "market" style acceptance that Scotland is too small to have major competition in football, and as a result the success is centralised around Celtic and Rangers. My argument is effectively the same as one would proffer for why Irish provinces are so successful in the club rugby game. Rather then only have four divisions of small clubs attempting to compete, it has four large teams, which can compete. Scottish football is somewhat the same, even though it was not intended that way. It has two large teams, with small teams around it.

And? So does Holland, Turkey, Greece, Portugal.

Het-Field wrote: »

On the contrary, I believe inspiration is crucial. Without Ireland's international experiences between 1988-2002, Irish soccer would have fallen into complete disrepair.

I believe they wouldn't.

If the FAI weren't doing the work, these kids would have drifted away into petty crime and drinking - or worse, the GAA. You can't dismiss off hand the amount of work that is done to produce the likes of Kevin Doyle, regardless of why he decides to play.

Het-Field wrote: »

Fahy's Field is a prime example. I retract the "beyond amateur" statement, but it cannot be shirked that Fahy's Field is not even close to great. National League standards do not guarantee quality.

So they don't have ambition? They are in the league 2 years, have no backers and the state funding has dried up. Its a fine facility, but not quite LoI standard. But they will get there.

It would be great if there were 20 15,000 seaters round the country that aspirant LoI clubs could use. But the Irish business class don't donate facilities like the Americans do, football didn't get the state handouts the Gah cornered and there was no Taylor report money like England and Scotland got.

Het-Field wrote: »

Sorry if I cannot believe you on that one. There is the prestige factor, the greater exposure, and an increase in the quality of facilities which must be taken into account.

Facilities and prestige should not be part of Trapps selection criteria. The issue is, of course, exposure. A guy who is at Pats on Monday, Birmingham on Wednesday and suddenly picked in the Ireland squad on Friday is daft. It indicates either extreme laziness on the national team selection part, basically waiting until a player gets a move to look at them or a deliberate policy. He didn't become a better player in a week, and it happens quite often.

CSF

Predator_ wrote: »

Has to be Man Utd or Liverpool based solely on the number of fans. No prem team has any history with Ireland like say Celtic does with Irish people.

Plastic fans.

Zebra3

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I didn't say it was a bed of roses. I said football has these problems, as your last paragraph indicates. Of the teams you listed, Fingal, Dublin City (daft ideas) and Kildare are the only ones who went bust.

Limerick FC folded after being denied a licence for the 2007 season and were replaced by Limerick 37.

Cork City Football Club went out of existence before the start of the 2010 and were replaced by a new club, Cork City FORAS Co-op.

Derry City were liquidated under the order of John Delaney to the their fans (who happily collaborated instead of trying to save their club) and replaced by a new club.

Just because new entities arrive on the secene doesn't change the fact that the old clubs folded.

All those three clubs went bust and left a huge amount of unpaid people behind from players, managers to local businesses.

Almost 25% of LoI clubs have gone out of existence in four years, so find me leagues with comparable rates to prove your claim that "Its a myth that the LoI is badly run compared to other leagues.".

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

]Its 3 too many, but all clubs including Real, Barca, Man U, Liverpool etc. are struggling.

All clubs are not struggling.

Arsenal and a whole host of German clubs are well run for starters.

OhNoYouDidn't

Zebra3 wrote: »

Limerick FC folded after being denied a licence for the 2007 season and were replaced by Limerick 37.

Cork City Football Club went out of existence before the start of the 2010 and were replaced by a new club, Cork City FORAS Co-op.

Derry City were liquidated under the order of John Delaney to the their fans (who happily collaborated instead of trying to save their club) and replaced by a new club.

Just because new entities arrive on the secene doesn't change the fact that the old clubs folded.

All those three clubs went bust and left a huge amount of unpaid people behind from players, managers to local businesses.

Almost 25% of LoI clubs have gone out of existence in four years, so find me leagues with comparable rates to prove your claim that "Its a myth that the LoI is badly run compared to other leagues.".

Those three clubs did not go 'out of existance' no more than Shels did. They still exist, still have their honours and titles and are all doing quite well. We get it, you are a Shels fan. For some reason you think you were harshly treated by the FAI. Whining won't do much, but might explain why you are still in the graveyard.

Zebra3 wrote: »

All clubs are not struggling.

Arsenal and a whole host of German clubs are well run for starters.

Being well run does not mean you don't struggle to raise revenue.

Germany is probably the only exception to the rule that all leagues in all countries in all sports are finding going tough. Picking on the LoI in isolation is generally agenda driven.

losthorizon

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Germany is probably the only exception to the rule that all leagues in all countries in all sports are finding going tough. Picking on the LoI in isolation is generally agenda driven.

And in fact German clubs report their results in the form EBITDA. Most German clubs arent as healty as they make out. Schalke for instance who are having a good season this year are walking a terrible financial tightrope. They probably woudnt get a LOI licence.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Mick Deegen and Paul Curran lasted less than a season at poor clubs in the LoI. They were garbage


Jayo was more of a success, but simply couldn't play full time professional football and intercounty gaelic. Both teams insisted he trained with them, IMO Rovers very reasonably as he was an employee and had to keep a hgher standard of fitness up than gaelic could provide. Something had to give, and he wasn't offered a new contract as a result of not being willing to committ to Rovers properly.

Deegan spent quite some time in Northern Ireland with Crusaders. I recall watching him play on BBC's "Final Score" programmen on a repeated basis during the ninties. To dismiss him as garbage is plain wrong.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

How do we know they are good on the ground by the way?.

As a GAA buff, I watch more then enough of it to know their use. Brogan has been a revelation in Dublin GAA, and if you spend long enough watching him, you know that he is excellent with the ball at his feet. In fact, I have seen more players using the ball on the ground then ever before.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You dismiss me as specualting and go onto speculate?

Yes. I admit I did speculate. However, I believe the matter on which I speculated is more ascertainable then claims that if the association footballl avenue was open to GAA players they would take it every time.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Kevin Moran is the only gaelic player of any note who made a career at any level playing football. There have been dozens of 'stars' of the GAA who decided to play LoI football and flopped. Matty Forde, Anthony Tohill, Michael Donnelan. The best gaelic footballers out there and miles off the standard. And Forde failed to cut it at Kilkenny. The standard is WAY higher than you give it credit for. You can't be good at another sport and suddenly decide to become a professional at any other. Never happens.?.

Niall Quinn, Denis Irwin, Steve Staunton, Shane Long (albeit with the small ball) are prime examples of players who were considered up and coming GAA players (and represented their counties at a host of levels) before soccer took their fancy. Kevin Moran is simply the most famous as a result of his involvement in the great Dublin teams of the 1970s.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You may actually be right, but the point remains. Non-OF Scottish clubs are in or around LoI level when it comes to European progression..

Selecting non Old Firm Scottish Clubs is a cop out. You cannot separate the Old-Firm from the rest to prove your point.

[QUOTE=OhNoYouDidn't;71782938I believe they wouldn't.

If the FAI weren't doing the work, these kids would have drifted away into petty crime and drinking - or worse, the GAA. You can't dismiss off hand the amount of work that is done to produce the likes of Kevin Doyle, regardless of why he decides to play...[/QUOTE]

Honestly, would you stop making the GAA out to be worse then alcoholism or crime. Even if it is a joke on your part, which I presume it is, it is not funny. Im not dismissing the work done on players like Doyle etc, but I am entitled to suggest that the zeitgeisty nature of Irish National Football after the World Cups of the 1990s revived a flagging game.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So they don't have ambition? They are in the league 2 years, have no backers and the state funding has dried up. Its a fine facility, but not quite LoI standard. But they will get there.

I hope they do.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

It would be great if there were 20 15,000 seaters round the country that aspirant LoI clubs could use. But the Irish business class don't donate facilities like the Americans do, football didn't get the state handouts the Gah cornered and there was no Taylor report money like England and Scotland got..

One would have to question whether 15,000 seater stadia are necessary. The peak attendance at most LOI clubs would be between 5,000-7,000. However, when the money was there in the mid noughties, the likes of Shelbourne and Bohemians chose to spend it on playing assets, and forgot about potential redevelopemnt of their homes. This would lead one to question whether money given to the league would be spent wisely. Further, I hope when you charge the business class with a failure to contribute to sports, you are not forgetting the likes of Mick Wallace T.D (who essentially bank-rolled the creation of a new club), Denis O'Brien (who was chastised for his decision to contribute to the FAI's obligations towards Giovanni Trappatoni), or the plethora of corporate entites who stump up quite a bit for many sporting projects around the country.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Facilities and prestige should not be part of Trapps selection criteria. The issue is, of course, exposure. A guy who is at Pats on Monday, Birmingham on Wednesday and suddenly picked in the Ireland squad on Friday is daft. It indicates either extreme laziness on the national team selection part, basically waiting until a player gets a move to look at them or a deliberate policy. He didn't become a better player in a week, and it happens quite often.

With due respect, the player you are referring to signed a pre-contractual agreement with Birmingham City in December 2008, he became a Birmingham City Play in January 2009, and he recieved his first International Cap in May 2010. Almost 18 months elapsed between Fahey's move to England, and his garnering of his first cap. 18 months gave the Irish National set-up a chance to view his progress, which included a full year in the Premier League. It also showed that Trapp was not picking him due to his affiliation to the National League. Essentially, Keith Fahey was not nearly as railroaded as you may think.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Those three clubs did not go 'out of existance' no more than Shels did. They still exist, still have their honours and titles and are all doing quite well. We get it, you are a Shels fan. For some reason you think you were harshly treated by the FAI. Whining won't do much, but might explain why you are still in the graveyard. QUOTE]

The legal entites comprising Cork City FC, and Derry City FC did go out of existence. They are not the same legal entity. They had to reform. Without FORAS, Cork City would not exist anymore.

losthorizon

Het-Field wrote: »

Selecting non Old Firm Scottish Clubs is a cop out. You cannot separate the Old-Firm from the rest to prove your point.

So when its pointed out that LOI teams have beaten scottish opposition in Europe the last few times the stock response is they werent old firm. Now the stock response is you have to include old firm.
BTW anyway in UEFAs ranking there isnt a huge difference between Bohs and Shamrock Rovers and Celtic. Celtic arent even good enough to have a club ranking!!!!

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

The legal entites comprising Cork City FC, and Derry City FC did go out of existence. They are not the same legal entity. They had to reform. Without FORAS, Cork City would not exist anymore.

The legal entities behind a football team invariably go out of existence when there is a change of ownership.

Het-Field

losthorizon wrote: »

So when its pointed out that LOI teams have beaten scottish opposition in Europe the last few times the stock response is they werent old firm. Now the stock response is you have to include old firm.
BTW anyway in UEFAs ranking there isnt a huge difference between Bohs and Shamrock Rovers and Celtic. Celtic arent even good enough to have a club ranking!!!!

I have not sought to negate LOI victories against Scottish opposition. You have either failed to read my point, or you are just not willing to accept what I am saying. In fact, you are seeking to misrepresent my whole point. I would also note that you have done this before on this thread.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The legal entities behind a football team invariably go out of existence when there is a change of ownership.

Not true. That is simply a change in ownership, other then completing the relevant contracts etc, there is no shift in the legal entity. Companies enjoy a separate legal personality, and can continue beyond changes in ownership.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Deegan spent quite some time in Northern Ireland with Crusaders. I recall watching him play on BBC's "Final Score" programmen on a repeated basis during the ninties. To dismiss him as garbage is plain wrong.

Ok, garbage is strong. He is better than 99% of the rest of us. But you tried to make out he was a LoI legend. The simple reality is that there really hasn't been a Gah player cut it in football at any professional level bar Moran. It doesn't happen for a reason.

Het-Field wrote: »

As a GAA buff, I watch more then enough of it to know their use. Brogan has been a revelation in Dublin GAA, and if you spend long enough watching him, you know that he is excellent with the ball at his feet. In fact, I have seen more players using the ball on the ground then ever before.

But he isn't within an arses roar of being good enough to play professionally, no more than Ronaldo would make a good gaelic player.

Het-Field wrote: »

Yes. I admit I did speculate. However, I believe the matter on which I speculated is more ascertainable then claims that if the association footballl avenue was open to GAA players they would take it every time.

I didn't say that. I am saying that every now and again a top Gah player tries his hand at football and they always, bar Moran, flop. If a player was good enough at football to be a pro, they would be a pro.

Het-Field wrote: »

Niall Quinn, Denis Irwin, Steve Staunton, Shane Long (albeit with the small ball) are prime examples of players who were considered up and coming GAA players (and represented their counties at a host of levels) before soccer took their fancy. Kevin Moran is simply the most famous as a result of his involvement in the great Dublin teams of the 1970s.

Before? They were all footballers too. Most of played Gah at some point. We were made. I find the attitude that Niall Quinn was property of the Gah before turning quite strange. Kids with that level of sporting talent play many sports. Yet only one 'claims' their souls. Its an interesting insight to the mentality of many within the Gah.

Het-Field wrote: »

Selecting non Old Firm Scottish Clubs is a cop out. You cannot separate the Old-Firm from the rest to prove your point.

Yes I can. The point was made that the LoI is the same standard as the SPL minus the big two. Its a valid comparison and Euro results bear that out.

Het-Field wrote: »

Honestly, would you stop making the GAA out to be worse then alcoholism or crime. Even if it is a joke on your part, which I presume it is, it is not funny. Im not dismissing the work done on players like Doyle etc, but I am entitled to suggest that the zeitgeisty nature of Irish National Football after the World Cups of the 1990s revived a flagging game.

Grow a pair. Its a football forum, people will pull the plonker of the bigots on occasion.

I don't think football has ever flagged as it happens. Its consistently and organically grown over time, at least at grassroots level.

Het-Field wrote: »

I hope they do.

Good.

Het-Field wrote: »

One would have to question whether 15,000 seater stadia are necessary. The peak attendance at most LOI clubs would be between 5,000-7,000. However, when the money was there in the mid noughties, the likes of Shelbourne and Bohemians chose to spend it on playing assets, and forgot about potential redevelopemnt of their homes. This would lead one to question whether money given to the league would be spent wisely. Further, I hope when you charge the business class with a failure to contribute to sports, you are not forgetting the likes of Mick Wallace T.D (who essentially bank-rolled the creation of a new club), Denis O'Brien (who was chastised for his decision to contribute to the FAI's obligations towards Giovanni Trappatoni), or the plethora of corporate entites who stump up quite a bit for many sporting projects around the country.

I don't disagree that there was strategic mistakes by clubs.

Who chastised O'Brien?

Plethora of corporate entities? Can you name a few, the club I do disability coaching with would love to get in touch with them.

Het-Field wrote: »

With due respect, the player you are referring to signed a pre-contractual agreement with Birmingham City in December 2008, he became a Birmingham City Play in January 2009, and he recieved his first International Cap in May 2010. Almost 18 months elapsed between Fahey's move to England, and his garnering of his first cap. 18 months gave the Irish National set-up a chance to view his progress, which included a full year in the Premier League. It also showed that Trapp was not picking him due to his affiliation to the National League. Essentially, Keith Fahey was not nearly as railroaded as you may think.

I was exaggerating the effect, but he was selected for an earlier squad and pulled out. But the magic portal has been the subject of much mirth from LoI fans over years. Paddy Mulligan was the first to go through it when he went from Rovers to Chelsea in the 60's.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Not true. That is simply a change in ownership, other then completing the relevant contracts etc, there is no shift in the legal entity. Companies enjoy a separate legal personality, and can continue beyond changes in ownership.

But in both Cork and Derry's case (and Rovers, Shels and Limericks) there was a fundamental change in ownership structure, specifically changing the clubs to fans owned trusts from limited companies.

In both cases, the underlying companies had to go.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

I have not sought to negate LOI victories against Scottish opposition. You have either failed to read my point, or you are just not willing to accept what I am saying. In fact, you are seeking to misrepresent my whole point. I would also note that you have done this before on this thread.

You initially stated that LoI clubs underperform against similar sized nations.

When pointed out that they don't you say they underperform compared to similar sized nations

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But in both Cork and Derry's case (and Rovers, Shels and Limericks) there was a fundamental change in ownership structure, specifically changing the clubs to fans owned trusts from limited companies.

In both cases, the underlying companies had to go.

What of the pelthora of changes which have taken place in the UK ? When Terance Brown sold West Ham United to the Icelandics, did the corporate entity behind West Ham wind up ?

In Cork City's case the Courts ordered a winding up of the corporate entity. This is significantly different to what you are suggesting. If the club had been solvent Tom Coughlan could have sold the club, and the corporate entity to FORAS, or any other willing purchaser. The court's determined that the corporate entity was insolvent, and it resulted in FORAS moving in to save the club, and purchase its intellectual property.
Derry City were expelled by the league for financial irregularities, and the decision to dissolve allowed another incarnation of the team to spring up. If the corporate entity behind Derry was still viable, it would have remained, but under new ownership.

As far as I am aware nothing has happened to the corporate entity which was behind Shelbourne in 2006.

However, what I am saying is that Cork City, and Derry City are not examples of smooth application of company law.

The corporate entities behind clubs do not "have to go", and im not sure of your logic in saying so.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

What of the pelthora of changes which have taken place in the UK ? When Terance Brown sold West Ham United to the Icelandics, did the corporate entity behind West Ham wind up ?

In Cork City's case the Courts ordered a winding up of the corporate entity. This is significantly different to what you are suggesting. If the club had been solvent Tom Coughlan could have sold the club, and the corporate entity to FORAS, or any other willing purchaser. The court's determined that the corporate entity was insolvent, and it resulted in FORAS moving in to save the club, and purchase its intellectual property. The corporate entities behond cludo not "have to go", and im not sure of your logic in saying so.

Derry City were expelled by the league for financial irregularities, and the decision to dissolve allowed another incarnation of the team to spring up. If the corporate entity behind Derry was still viable, it would have remained, but under new ownership.

As far as I am aware nothing has happened to the corporate entity which was behind Shelbourne in 2006.

However, what I am saying is that Cork City, and Derry City are not examples of smooth application of company law.

The corporate entities behond cluds not "have to go", and im not sure of your logic in saying so.

I don't know what happens in Britain because I simply don't care.

But in both Cork and Derry's case (and Shels) there was such a fundamental legal change in the ownership structure, from limited companies to trusts, the underlying legal entity was dissolved, although in Corks case that decision was in effect taken for them

Remember I was involved in Rovers doing this.

There was no 'new incarnations' of the teams.

CSF

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't know what happens in Britain because I simply don't care.

But in both Cork and Derry's case (and Shels) there was such a fundamental legal change in the ownership structure, from limited companies to trusts, the underlying legal entity was dissolved, although in Corks case that decision was in effect taken for them

Remember I was involved in Rovers doing this.

There was no 'new incarnations' of the teams.

I don't think Derry and Cork are in the same boat. I don't think Derry went down the same road Cork have in that sense.

Pure_Cork

Het-Field wrote: »

What of the pelthora of changes which have taken place in the UK ? When Terance Brown sold West Ham United to the Icelandics, did the corporate entity behind West Ham wind up ?

In Cork City's case the Courts ordered a winding up of the corporate entity. This is significantly different to what you are suggesting. If the club had been solvent Tom Coughlan could have sold the club, and the corporate entity to FORAS, or any other willing purchaser. The court's determined that the corporate entity was insolvent, and it resulted in FORAS moving in to save the club, and purchase its intellectual property.
Derry City were expelled by the league for financial irregularities, and the decision to dissolve allowed another incarnation of the team to spring up. If the corporate entity behind Derry was still viable, it would have remained, but under new ownership.

As far as I am aware nothing has happened to the corporate entity which was behind Shelbourne in 2006.

However, what I am saying is that Cork City, and Derry City are not examples of smooth application of company law.

The corporate entities behind clubs do not "have to go", and im not sure of your logic in saying so.

Tom Coughlan could've sold the club right up until the final High Court hearing. There was an offer on the table from a consortium involving FORAS and two businessmen. That offer was not accepted despite the CCIFL being insolvent at the time.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't know what happens in Britain because I simply don't care.

But in both Cork and Derry's case (and Shels) there was such a fundamental legal change in the ownership structure, from limited companies to trusts, the underlying legal entity was dissolved, although in Corks case that decision was in effect taken for them

Remember I was involved in Rovers doing this.

There was no 'new incarnations' of the teams.

The Cork City decision was not "in effect" taken for them, it WAS taken for the by the courts. The company died

The corporate entity behind Shamrock Rovers was not dissolved by the courts, however, it was purchased while it was in examinership. Rovers was essentially in Court protection as routes were explored as to how it could be returned to its former glories. Examinership ensures different procedures, and as such while there was a transfer of corporate status, the club never went out of business like Cork City.

Cork City FC died as a legal entity, and as such it cannot be described as the same team.

Pure_Cork

Het-Field wrote: »

The Cork City decision was not "in effect" taken for them, it was taken for the by the courts. The company died

The corporate entity behind Shamrock Rovers was not dissolved by the courts, however, it was purchased while it was in examinership. Rovers was essentially in Court protection as routes were explored as to how it could be returned to its former glories. Examinership ensures different procedures, and as such while there was a transfer of corporate status, the club never went out of business like Cork City.

Cork City FC died as a legal entity, and as such it cannot be described as the same team.

Cork City FC did not die as a legal entity, Cork City Investments FC Ltd was wound up, and during that liquidation process Cork City FC was taken over by the supporters trust.

This has already been done to death, you've already had this debate with OhNoYouDidn't, what exactly has this got to do with "What's the 'most Irish' Premier League club?"?