Anyone do Practical Pistol, Rifle or Shotgun competitions?

Watch Ryder

Are there any Practical Pistol, Rifle or Shotgun Clubs in Ireland?

I know there is 'target' shooting and clays but is there any 'realistic' shooting ranges where you have different posititions, falling plate, against the clock, obstacle courses etc?

Sparks

In short, no.
There was, but it was pretty much shut down by the Powers That Be.
There are disciplines that have some of the elements you mentioned - timed shoots are pretty much normal to one extent or another, from the 1hr45min for 60 shots in ISSF rifle to 5 shots in 4 seconds for ISSF rapid fire pistol and that's just in ISSF alone, pretty much every sport out there in shooting has time limits. Falling plates are still shot as well by some (Biathlon, MPAI I think, and if you're willing to stretch the definition of "falling plate" a little, the entire sport of Silhouette shooting). Different positions as well, if by position you mean "standing", "kneeling", "sitting" or "prone" - if you mean go to location A and shoot and then go to location B and shoot, I don't think there are any unless WA1500 does that (I'm not sure on that point, I'll leave it to a WA1500 shooter to comment). And I don't know of any obstacle courses either, though the MPAI and Pony Club do have running, swimming, riding and fencing (for the MPAI) sections to their events.

But a single competition combining all those elements, or something that looks more like the IPSC or similar disciplines? No, not to the best of my knowledge. There are people from here competeing in events like that outside the state, but none in the state.

Grizzly 45

About the only way you could shoot an IPSC match here in the South is using airsoft toys.IPSC regulating body does recognise that category now and it is a huge hit out in places like China,Japan and Korea where the govt doesnt trust its people to own firearms either.:rolleyes:
However,for us who spent fortunes winning our "privilige" of owning a handgun to shoot and were betrayed by the previous Govt into closing down IPSC shooting,so that others could hold onto their handguns,we'd if so inclined rather drive /move to Northern Ireland and continue up there where such dangerous activities are looked on as a normal sport not "combat training" or other such nonsense.

Watch Ryder

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

About the only way you could shoot an IPSC match here in the South is using airsoft toys.IPSC regulating body does recognise that category now and it is a huge hit out in places like China,Japan and Korea where the govt doesnt trust its people to own firearms either.:rolleyes:
However,for us who spent fortunes winning our "privilige" of owning a handgun to shoot and were betrayed by the previous Govt into closing down IPSC shooting,so that others could hold onto their handguns,we'd if so inclined rather drive /move to Northern Ireland and continue up there where such dangerous activities are looked on as a normal sport not "combat training" or other such nonsense.

It's insane for a government to do that as all that happens is people get their own land and run their own practical shoots there instead.
This has been going on in the UK for years in Scotland and Wales due to the namby pamby UKPSA banning anything camo, anything looking like man-sized targets and anything 'realistic' etc.

Sparks

Watch Ryder wrote: »

It's insane for a government to do that as all that happens is people get their own land and run their own practical shoots there instead.

You must have missed section 4b of the Firearms Act there. Which has, since 2006, given the Firearms Range Inspector the authority to enter and search anywhere he wants to, any time he wants to, without a set warrant, in case he thinks there’s target shooting going on in that place, dwelling, vehicle, aircraft or hovercraft (no, I’m not making that last one up).

This has been going on in the UK for years in Scotland and Wales due to the namby pamby UKPSA banning anything camo, anything looking like man-sized targets and anything 'realistic' etc.

Yeah, here it's banned by statute law backed up by the ERU. So terms like "namby pamby" and suggesting that we ignore the law and just do what we like are... well, there are many phrases that come to mind but in order to obey rule number one of this forum, I'll just remind you of rule eight, okay?

Bananaman

WA1500 does not include any aspects which meet the definition of 'practical ahooting' under Irish law.

B'Man

Watch Ryder

Sparks wrote: »

You must have missed section 4b of the Firearms Act there. Which has, since 2006, given the Firearms Range Inspector the authority to enter and search anywhere he wants to, any time he wants to, without a set warrant, in case he thinks there’s target shooting going on in that place, dwelling, vehicle, aircraft or hovercraft (no, I’m not making that last one up).

Yeah, here it's banned by statute law backed up by the ERU. So terms like "namby pamby" and suggesting that we ignore the law and just do what we like are... well, there are many phrases that come to mind but in order to obey rule number one of this forum, I'll just remind you of rule eight, okay?

You can remind away but stating the obvious isn't against forum rules 1 through to 8 either.

Watch Ryder

Sparks wrote: »

You must have missed section 4b of the Firearms Act there. Which has, since 2006, given the Firearms Range Inspector the authority to enter and search anywhere he wants to, any time he wants to, without a set warrant, in case he thinks there’s target shooting going on in that place, dwelling, vehicle, aircraft or hovercraft (no, I’m not making that last one up).

Assuming that happens what does he do if people are there shooting?
If vermin control, zeroing weapons and target practise is going ahead then I can't see how there's any statute's feathers being ruffled
Is there no such thing as a private firing range in Ireland anymore?

Yeah, here it's banned by statute law backed up by the ERU. So terms like "namby pamby" and suggesting that we ignore the law and just do what we like are... well, there are many phrases that come to mind but in order to obey rule number one of this forum, I'll just remind you of rule eight, okay?

See bold.

Bananaman

This is just a sh1t stirring thread.

Yet more rumour of lads in a field doing x, y & z - only now they are in the valleys of wales and the highlands of scotland.

IPSC is not practiced in Ireland any more. This is because the term "practical shooting" is specifically mentioned as a prohibited act in the law.
The law does go on to define "practical shooting" as "simulated combat or combat training" which would, all things being equal, exclude IPSC from the prohibition as it is not simulated combat or combat training.
However IPSC stands for International Practical Shooting Confederation and unfortunately the way our laws are used (as opposed to upheld) scares people. With a breach of these new laws carrying a heftier penalty than murder, nobody wants to be the one to find out that their interpretation is different from someone elses.

IPSC is competed in, in every other country in Europe - in fact the IPSC World Shoot - one of the largest shooting events in the world - is being held in Greece this year.

So if you want to compete - you can do it - anywhere - except Ireland.

As to obstacle courses or realistic shooting ranges - that is not part of any target shooting - I think what you are looking for there is the army.

Hope it helps.

B'Man

Grizzly 45

Bananaman wrote: »

WA1500 does not include any aspects which meet the definition of 'practical ahooting' under Irish law.

B'Man

Yet in every pistol case Insp Brookes is STILL claiming and despite being shot down so many times in courts of law that 1500 is "combat training".
You would think the AGS would finally get the message that this is established now in court that 1500 is Good reason...Still, maybe they like banging their heads of brick walls too for headache relif!!
There is an good comment on it by Des Crofton in this months ISD.

Sparks

Watch Ryder wrote: »

Is there no such thing as a private firing range in Ireland anymore?

Correct. Not in the sense you're thinking of at any rate. Privately owned, yes. Private as in "you can't come in", no.

And you're not stating the obvious, you're just stating something that's not true and breaking rule 8 in the process, so stop.

Grizzly 45

On that point of private,"you cant come in except me and ..me" Could somone actually construct such and get it signed off?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is an good comment on it by Des Crofton in this months ISD.

It's funny to read, but it's a tad inaccurate as I understand the facts of that case in Nenagh because (a) the expert witness brought up WA1500, not the applicant and it was to that that Brooks was responding, not the initial application; and (b) Brooks hadn't personally witnessed a WA1500 match, he'd seen footage of WA1500 matches and based his opinion on that (I wouldn't want to accuse him of prejudice in that opinion, obviously).

And now that he's been to a WA1500 demonstration, that second argument can no longer be made in court. This means that unless the Inspector has altered his opinion based on that demonstration (and it does seem unlikely given his expressed opinion in several courts to date, as Des correctly points out in the last paragraph), then the judge's decision comes down to one expert witness testifying against another expert witness. One of whom is a Garda Ballistics Officer Of Long Standing, etc.

That is not a place any sport should wish to be in because if one judge leans towards the Inspector's testimony rather than the shooter's expert witness's, the High Court may use that in the three test cases now being heard (and if he doesn't, we still have the spectre of the HC judges making the same judgement call), and if that happens then not only are the 90% or so of the 180-odd JRs struck out of court -- because if a judge rules WA1500 is combat training under the act then how can you bring a JR for a licence application for something that the act prohibits? -- but all the licences granted on the foot of competing in WA1500 are also in trouble.

To be honest, if I was a WA1500 shooter, I'd be pretty bloody worried about this and would be keeping a very close eye on that case in Nenagh.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On that point of private,"you cant come in except me and ..me" Could somone actually construct such and get it signed off?

You can prohibit ordinary members of the public from entering simply by putting up a notice if it's your own land or you hold the lease (it's trespassing if they ignore it); but you cannot prohibit the Range Inspector or the Gardai from entering a range. And you cannot prohibit the Range Inspector from entering any place or dwelling or vehicle if he suspects there's target shooting going on there (he has the same level of authority there that the Customs lads have).

Sparks

Moved to Shooting as we've wandered out of the Target Shooting forum's baliwick...

Glensman

I did a good bit of practical pistol in Louisiana and Mississippi.

GREAT fun. But it has to be said that a lot of those guys (many ex-mil) did see it as combat training! Most targets were man-shaped

As I say, great fun when you are on holiday...

I was asked to do practical pistol here as it's still allowed, but I don't know if I could be annoyed with the expense or if it would even be my scene. But they are so friendly state-side that I would love to do it again next time I am out.

Bananaman

Seriously? The Mind boggles

How many times have we said that practical shooting
- as in the sport of IPSC -
which is what it means to target shooters in Ireland
does not involve man shaped targets.
I have a pain in my face saying this to people.

Therefore if you are shooting at man shaped targets
- you are not taking part in IPSC -
you are doing something else - mostly shooting at man shaped targets
which no civilian range here would ever allow you to do.

What you did in Louisiana and Mississippi with a load of ex-military types
- was not IPSC -
I dunno what it was - I'm sure it was great fun - but you'll find they do not do it anywhere outside the USA.

B'Man

Glensman

Bananaman wrote: »

Seriously? The Mind boggles

How many times have we said that practical shooting
- as in the sport of IPSC -
which is what it means to target shooters in Ireland
does not involve man shaped targets.
I have a pain in my face saying this to people.

Therefore if you are shooting at man shaped targets
- you are not taking part in IPSC -
you are doing something else - mostly shooting at man shaped targets
which no civilian range here would ever allow you to do.

What you did in Louisiana and Mississippi with a load of ex-military types
- was not IPSC -
I dunno what it was - I'm sure it was great fun - but you'll find they do not do it anywhere outside the USA.

B'Man

I wouldn't pretend to know what way it is in NI or how it was in the 26 before it was banned. I was never there and am not commenting on that...

The event I was at had acronyms as well, NOT IPSC but it was run by the NRA and the scores were recorded into an NRA DB for ranking purposes and put on a website. We were 100% shooting at man sized targets.

Like I say, great craic with very friendly people and some awesome shooting on display

Sparks

Glensman wrote: »

The event I was at had acronyms as well, NOT IPSC but it was run by the NRA and the scores were recorded into an NRA DB for ranking purposes and put on a website. We were 100% shooting at man sized targets.

Like the B-27?

If so, it probably wasn't IPSC or IDPA, they moved away from the B-27 type targets a decade or so ago (unless we're talking about shooting over a decade ago).

Tackleberrywho

I shot in Texas and the Targets were all the regular ones we use here.

Glensman, by any chance was it called Blackwater ?

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

Like the B-27?

If so, it probably wasn't IPSC or IDPA, they moved away from the B-27 type targets a decade or so ago (unless we're talking about shooting over a decade ago).

Yeah there were ones like that. Only they had letters instead of numbers for scoring...
Also they had steel man shaped targets that you had to knock over while standing in a 'box' behind a door shaped piece of wood. So you had to lean out and shoot knock 2 off your good side and 2 off your bad.
9mm would only knock them over with a head shot. I was using 40 cal so high in the chest was enough to knock them down.
It was not last Jan but the one before!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I shot in Texas and the Targets were all the regular ones we use here.

Glensman, by any chance was it called Blackwater ?

Hahaahaha! It wasn't far off that style! There was shooting while running sideways through ladders and with obstacles and stuff, it went on for the full day and was Very competitive.
I should also say that it was incredibly well organised and although it sounds like a bunch of Yahoos, safety was abolutely paramount.

I cant access personal email at work, but I'll have a root through tonight and see if I can find the link to their website.

Grizzly 45

What you proably shot was International Defensive Pistol Assoc match.
That is completely different and aimed more at defensive or combat shooting,which would make it very illegal here in Ireland,and most of the EU as well,bar Italy and the East blocks.
It has been deliberatly and conviently used and confused here in Ireland to tar IPSC as combat shooting.The two of them are as different as chalk and cheese.Starting with the guns used,etc.Even the targets are different.Yes lots of police officers use it[IDPA]as it is more realistic than their standard fire 100 rounds to qualify at a paper target per month.

Conversely,many US PD actually prohibit their officers from competing in IPSC matches,as it has no benefical police training in real stressfire situations,and is actually downright dangerous for use in a real gunplay situation.A couple of police officers were killed in the US years ago,trying to "slap leather" against a liquor store robber who jumped them In CA.Who already had his gun out and cocked and was covering them.


You can prohibit ordinary members of the public from entering simply by putting up a notice if it's your own land or you hold the lease (it's trespassing if they ignore it); but you cannot prohibit the Range Inspector or the Gardai from entering a range. And you cannot prohibit the Range Inspector from entering any place or dwelling or vehicle if he suspects there's target shooting going on there (he has the same level of authority there that the Customs lads have).

Not what I asked Sparks.... I wanted to know ..Can you build on your own suitable bit of property a range for your sole individual ,private use and get the range inspector to sign it off as such... Yes/No?
IOW a suitable backstop,etc for your personal use with a shooting bench,for your personal use.Nothing else.

And now that he's been to a WA1500 demonstration, that second argument can no longer be made in court. This means that unless the Inspector has altered his opinion based on that demonstration (and it does seem unlikely given his expressed opinion in several courts to date, as Des correctly points out in the last paragraph), then the judge's decision comes down to one expert witness testifying against another expert witness. One of whom is a Garda Ballistics Officer Of Long Standing, etc.

And said other witness isnt a slouch of not long standing...If I remember correctly he is an actual firearms ballistican,not a forensic ballistican.Both are two different animals.

That is not a place any sport should wish to be in because if one judge leans towards the Inspector's testimony rather than the shooter's expert witness's, the High Court may use that in the three test cases now being heard (and if he doesn't, we still have the spectre of the HC judges making the same judgement call), and if that happens then not only are the 90% or so of the 180-odd JRs struck out of court -- because if a judge rules WA1500 is combat training under the act then how can you bring a JR for a licence application for something that the act prohibits? -- but all the licences granted on the foot of competing in WA1500 are also in trouble.

To be honest, if I was a WA1500 shooter, I'd be pretty bloody worried about this and would be keeping a very close eye on that case in Nenagh.

Seeing it is been and done now its a bit late,and the above is the most pessisimistic version of things.One thing is for sure..The HC will not and cannot rule in favour of a liscense.The act is clear it is the DC or nothing!!
That has been established in our case by Judge O Donnell in Limerick..
They[HC] can only rule on points of law being correct or not in each individual case.So it would be doubtful that the HC judges are going to say each and every DC ruling by an independant DJ was incorrect?
Especially as the HC already put down a marker themselves that 1500 is good reason last year??
Now whenever the HC cases are heard is another thing.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

What you proably shot was International Defensive Pistol Assoc match.

Um. Probably not Grizz. IDPA's shot on the same targets as IPSC - well, same shape - scoring rings might be a bit different, but here's the IDPA target, and it's not a B-27:



If I had to guess, I'd say Glensman shot in a PPC1500 match (not WA1500). They were still using the B-27 or something similar to it in the US for that last I looked.

Not what I asked Sparks.... I wanted to know ..Can you build on your own suitable bit of property a range for your sole individual ,private use and get the range inspector to sign it off as such... Yes/No?

Sorry Grizz, misread you. Yes, you can of course - there's no difference in what you describe there and the normal model for a range except that your club has a membership of one But you'd get no special breaks because of that - you'd have to meet the same criteria as any normal range would (and pay the same fee...)

And said other witness isnt a slouch of not long standing...If I remember correctly he is an actual firearms ballistican,not a forensic ballistican.Both are two different animals.

Think a judge knows the difference?
I mean, if the judge did know, there wouldn't be much of a case going on as even a small amount of domain-specific knowledge would move a case like that along very sharply.
No, all the judge sees is a civilian expert witness testifying against a garda expert witness, and that's not a horse race I'd want my sport bet on.

Seeing it is been and done now its a bit late,and the above is the most pessisimistic version of things.

You know the saying Grizz, you have to work to kill a pessimist, an optimist will do it for you.
Besides which, I've been called a pessimist before only to be proven right within a few years It's a record I'd be happy to break, but somehow looking at this, I can't get the hackles on the back of my neck to sit down.

One thing is for sure..The HC will not and cannot rule in favour of a liscense.The act is clear it is the DC or nothing!!

That's not quite the full picture though Grizz. The HC cannot order a licence granted, yes; but it could rule that WA1500 isn't permitted under the Act (if it made the wrong call on the civilian-v-garda expert testimony comparison) and that would overrule the DC's ability to grant the licence because the DC can't grant a licence where the good reason cited under section 4 is a prohibited act

That has been established in our case by Judge O Donnell in Limerick..

Er, no. That was established by the rules of the court - you go to the HC for a Judicial Review, not an Appeal. Two utterly different animals completely, and we've always gone for JRs and it's always been the case that the HC couldn't (and didn't want to) grant licences. But if a JR finds that the licence can't be legally granted, that does stuff up cases in the DC. That's why the three test cases in the HC are so damn important.

Bananaman

Guessing what this guy shot in the backwoods of Louisiana is not helpful - he was shooting at human targets - therefore it would be more in the realms of self defence than target shooting (and I would have assumed it would have been verbotten on here but I am not a mod so cannot say) therefore it would not be allowed on any range in Ireland.

It was not IPSC

It was not backgammon

The list of things it was not could go on for ever

What it was - is not relevant as no range would allow it here.

---

As to the flippant association of IPSC and IPDA.

IPSC do not use the same firearms, rules, targets or scoring as IPDA.
They are not the same - they are completely different - they have a different purpose.

Contrary to the name IPDA is a US-only pursuit - much like the "World Series".

Whereas IPSC is one of the Main International Shooting Disciplines with truly international support on a par with the ISSF.

They may have a common ancestor - somewhere back in the mists of time - but so does Free Pistol and Duelling - where someone is killed - do we try to flippantly associate Free Pistol with killing people? - no, we do not.

B'Man

Glensman

Just to be completely clear:

I am not (nor was I ever) saying that the competition I shot in was the same as what takes place in Ireland.

Rules and competitions in America, especially the southern states, would naturally be very different to what takes place here.

and just to clear it up (even though it is not the core topic of discussion on this thread) I have emailed the fella I went to the competition with, he is also the person who provided most of the handguns I used while in the States to see what exactly the name of the competition is. When he replies I will provide a link to their website...

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Guessing what this guy shot in the backwoods of Louisiana is not helpful

Nor is it harmful. Ease up a bit please B'man, you're standing on tiptoe beside the back-seat-modding line and swaying a bit.

he was shooting at human targets - therefore it would be more in the realms of self defence than target shooting

I wouldn't say that around the PPC1500 shooters were I you.

It was not IPSC

Thought you said it wasn't helpful to guess what it was?

What it was - is not relevant as no range would allow it here.

If it was some sort of self-defence course, yes. If it was PPC1500, you might find that they shoot a variant of it in Ireland, called WA1500 :rolleyes:
And if that was what the OP enjoyed, then he ought to be able to shoot it again here.

As to the flippant association of IPSC and IPDA.

Didn't happen. In fact, it's been perfectly clear throughout this thread that the two are seperate sports with only a passing similarity. And frankly, I don't think the IDPA would really care for the rest of your post, they're quite adamant that they're a sport as well, just with different rules, and seeing you imply that they're not a sport but a way to train to kill people would not only bemuse the IDPA, the Gardai would take a look at the two sports and not see enough of a difference from their less experienced viewpoint and you'd have just created a problem that didn't exist before.

Whereas IPSC is one of the Main International Shooting Disciplines with truly international support on a par with the ISSF.

You got elitist pretty fast there B'man. The IDPA aren't even in Ireland and you're trying to chuck them under a bus...

Bananaman

Well - here we go again.

I take umbrage at your continual attempts to insinuate that I said things I did not. Please stop doing that.

I never said that IPDA was about harming people - I said that Duelling was about harming people and that ISSF Free Pistol - as in the Olympic sport - would be a descendant of that. I used it as an example to show that just because the history of something is martial does not mean that the current sport is.

What I did say is that IPDA is a US only pursuit - ala the "World Series" - it does not exist outside the US (well perhaps where there are US Army bases) but that if you go back far enough it would have a common ancestor to IPSC but that is where their common ground ends - much like Duelling and ISSF Free Pistol.

They are NOT variants on a theme - bar the fact that their both involve shooting - being a pilot does not make you an astronaut even though they both involve flying.

IPSC, on the other hand is a very large International Sport, on a par with the Olympic Shooting Disciplines. It is, in fact, not as popular in the US as it is in other countries. If memory serves USA is about 11th in the rankings of countries for registered IPSC competitors. It is competed in in every country in Europe (last time I looked, in 85 regions worldwide) whereas IPDA is not competed in, in any country, but the USA.

I am concerned that your continual attempts to associate them shows some underlying distaste towards IPSC and that is why you continually try to associate it with IPDA - which was never allowed in Ireland.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Well - here we go again.

Indeed. I wish you'd quit it.

I take umbrage at your continual attempts to insinuate that I said things I did not. Please stop doing that.

I'm not insinuating anything. I stated that you implied it.

I never said that IPDA was about harming people

No, you implied it.
Incorrectly, btw.

I said that Duelling was about harming people and that ISSF Free Pistol - as in the Olympic sport - would be a descendant of that.

Which isn't correct in and of itself, but more apropos, was not the implication you made by calling IPSC a sport and IDPA "completely different" with a "different purpose".

if you go back far enough it would have a common ancestor to IPSC but that is where their common ground ends - much like Duelling and ISSF Free Pistol.

To be accurate;
(a) IPSC and IDPA split fairly recently - in 1996 to be exact.
(b) ISSF Free Pistol doesn't originate from Duelling, not unless you want to ignore two intervening centuries, ignore the differences between what was basicly a handmade short smoothbore black powder musket of indeterminate calibre and a modern free pistol in .22lr, ignore the range, ignore the setting, and ignore, well, pretty much everything else. (It'd be less work to ignore the differences between an elephant and a shot of tequila).

They are NOT variants on a theme - bar the fact that their both involve shooting - being a pilot does not make you an astronaut even though they both involve flying.

They aren't variations, they've diverged more than that, but that's from your viewpoint and mine after over a few decades of shooting. To us, a .32 and a .40 are massively different. To an outside lay observer, as I was talking about, it's nowhere near so clearly seperated.

BTW, almost all astronauts are pilots and are required to be - only a small proportion of mission specialists aren't pilots.

I am concerned that your continual attempts to associate them

Now you're just lying. And that's annoying.
I don't associate them. I never have, beyond their historical links, which are factual. I've said that people who don't know any better could associate them because of gross similarities. The same way the ISC lumps almost all shooting into one group despite everyone in here knowing that's a stupid approach. And all that's written up on here in black and white. So - do you think the other posters here are illiterate or just plain stupid B'man?

Grizzly 45

If it was some sort of self-defence course, yes. If it was PPC1500, you might find that they shoot a variant of it in Ireland, called WA1500 :rolleyes:

Which might have had its roots back in the 1940s in an FBI training course,but is so outdated in a tactical application of crime fighting,it would be the equivlent of showing up on a modern battlefield dressed in a suit of armour with a broad sword.
BTW 1500 targets here dont look anything remotly man shaped anymore,
unless you are using the most broadest term possible to include a downward pointing arrow into a rectangle.
Ditto IPSC targets,are the so called "turtleback" A hexagonal target with four zones.

, I don't think the IDPA would really care for the rest of your post, they're quite adamant that they're a sport as well, just with different rules, and seeing you imply that they're not a sport but a way to train to kill people would not only bemuse the IDPA, the Gardai would take a look at the two sports and not see enough of a difference from their less experienced viewpoint and you'd have just created a problem that didn't exist before.

Trouble is IDPA makes no bones about themselves being more "reality based" training and shooting situations.They wont allow IPSC style "race guns" or speed holsters or non standard sights.It is all based on concealed carry or duty issued firearms.Also,alot of LEO use it for training purposes,as they claim it is more reality based than the std police dept monthly "fire a 100 rounds at a bullseye to qualify to carry your sidearm training".

Edit,AS for the split in 1996.It was because the genesis of the IDPA folks wanted to get back to the roots of what practical pistol was then in the 1970s as envisaged by Col Jeff Cooper,a live stress fire course of shooting.No one denies that IPSC had orginally combat training roots,but that was nigh on 40 years ago it has evolved into a sport with martial history,as have all shooting sports.However IDPA is the original or close to version of what IPSC was intended to be,ergo it is more reality self defence based than IPSC is now.

Not only that there is still with some PDs a prohibition of their officers participating in IPSC matches,as some police officer got killed years ago trying to beat a armed felon by "slapping leather" from a hands up scenario in an IPSC match.There is a world of difference between the two of them,and particullary in Europe where IPSC is accepted as a sport and IDPA [the" D" as in defensive] is classified as combat training and banned in most of western europe[bar Italy ASFIK]
Seriously ,if one was to look with a open mind on the two IDPA comes out as the more fitting description of "combat training"

You got elitist pretty fast there B'man. The IDPA aren't even in Ireland and you're trying to chuck them under a bus...

Not being eliteist,just being factual,that IDPA while being a "sport" too is more fitting of a description of whats banned here.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BTW 1500 targets here dont look anything remotly man shaped anymore,

That's WA1500 - from what I could find, PPC1500 in the US still uses a B-27 or something similar to it.

Seriously ,if one was to look with a open mind on the two IDPA comes out as the more fitting description of "combat training"

The problem comes up when you say "Oh yeah, IDPA's just combat training" and then some journalist/politician/garda without any firearms experience goes and looks up IDPA and can't tell the difference between IDPA and IPSC (which if the match was informal enough is quite possible - and there's a lot of informal photos on the web). Next thing you know, there's a great big brush and a lot of tar.

Better to note that both are sports, than to try to say one's a sport and one's "completely different" with a totally "different purpose".

Unless you don't mind figuratively shooting yourself in the foot, that is.

Grizzly 45

That's WA1500 - from what I could find, PPC1500 in the US still uses a B-27 or something similar to it.

Dunno Sparks any targets used in offical WA/PPC shoots are not man targets anymore,unless you really stretch the imagination..

The problem comes up when you say "Oh yeah, IDPA's just combat training" and then some journalist/politician/garda without any firearms experience goes and looks up IDPA and can't tell the difference between IDPA and IPSC (which if the match was informal enough is quite possible - and there's a lot of informal photos on the web). Next thing you know, there's a great big brush and a lot of tar.

Thats what already, and did happen here .Now wether it was by accident or design on part of the AGS/DOJ or people in the shooting community with an agenda hostile to IPSC,can be debated long and hard ,and is going into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin terrority.So at this stage it is totally academic wether they were looking at the IPSC or IDPA website.

Better to note that both are sports, than to try to say one's a sport and one's "completely different" with a totally "different purpose".

Unless you don't mind figuratively shooting yourself in the foot, that is.[/

Fine,but it is a bit late now as both have been branded "combat training" by the misinformed,ignorant or agenda players.