Motorists face new charges as number of toll roads to double

yermanoffthetv

KevR wrote: »

That's not what I am saying.

Someone said that motorists should pay more tolls because motor tax doesn't cover the cost of our roads. I argued that motor tax + fuel duty + VRT does cover the cost of roads and that there is actually a surplus. In my opinion, motorists should not have to pay anymore than they currently do and a reasonable level of spending on roads should always be maintained (the benefits being economic, improved safety, better bus services).

I don't think that money from motorists should be totally ring-fenced. Motorists already pay their fair share and should not have to pay anymore.

I know, in a tongue in cheek way I was agreeing with you. The levels of tax and duty are high enough to maintain the road network to an acceptable standard.I also agree it shouldnt be ringfenced just for roads. What I dont want to see is an increase in taxes/tolls etc to subsidise shortfalls in "public spending" (read severance packages to certain bankers:rolleyes:)

blacktopper

Examples of external costs (as in the vehicle driver causes but does not fully pay for):

• High cost land take for urban road improvement.
• Road Traffic Accidents.
• Greenhouse gas emissions.
• road users cause congestion, causing travel times to increase and valuable working time is lost (value of time is about 84% of economic benefit of a motorway).
• Pollution to water and air
• Health costs to users who are sedentary.
• this list goes on and on.

The road user does not begin with present taxation to meet his/her external costs incurred. The concept of "the user pays" is also an buzz phrase in the OECD litrature. This is well recognised within the EU. The aim is to "internalise the externalities" also well excepted EU transport policy. How?
multi point tolling is a reasonable route but it must be fair and based on the "willingness to pay principle" or else significant diversion onto poorly equipped secondary roads occurs and massive increases in external costs occur. This concept is also well worn and can be calculated by a number of different means. How accurately those calculations convert into human behaviour is another matter entirely and diversion both initialy and after people have had time to adjust to paying the toll is the subject of multiple papers. Unless you are willing to invest in satellite technology tolling does not cover local trips such as a short drive for the newspaper in a car on your own this actually represents a surprisingly large number of trips from UK data although not a lot of vehicle/km. This is where internalising the externalities into fuel starts to pay dividends. This also has problems of fuel tourism where users, particularly heavy commercial vehicle users, fill up in neighbour states that are cheaper and then you start to loose tax revenues, a significant issue in mainland Europe but not so much for us. Just like people going to the North for a Christmas shop. There are economists who work in transport both sides of the border that have broached the subject with decision makers on a purely hypothetical basis to unify fuel pricing strategy. Otherwise we might further diadvantage our road haulage sector, this is unacceptable, it has suffered enough. Unfortunately there are significant costs to be covered by road users and single occupant car travel is not in the Countries best interest. Sorry for the bad news but the free ride at the expense of the State will have to end. Another issue for road building fans is "induced traffic" a fact excepted by the road building community and most importantly by the NRA. If you build nice roads it generates new trips and people extend existing trips and in no time at all your lovely road is congested again. To "lock in the value" of road infrastructure investments such as recent motorways that we will not be able to afford to extend for years to come some for of travel demand management will have to be implemented. Fiscal measures such as tolling or fuel taxation will have to occur. If you speak to Transportation officials about fuel taxation you can almost see them mouth the words central taxation revenues. In other words the don't get their hands on the revenues produced as easily. Tolling the road network makes for direct revenue back to the NRA. A shame really because there is no investment required for fuel taxation in tolling hardware and it covers all travel evenly not just the National road network. There are cast iron ring fencing mechanisms that could be used but that will be an up hill battle to convince those that need to be convinced. Anyway sorry about car trips having to become more costly and all that but honestly it is for the best. I feel for the hauliers. If you feel bad just think of them.

antoobrien

blacktopper wrote: »

Examples of external costs (as in the vehicle driver causes but does not fully pay for):

• High cost land take for urban road improvement.
• Road Traffic Accidents.
• Greenhouse gas emissions.
• road users cause congestion, causing travel times to increase and valuable working time is lost (value of time is about 84% of economic benefit of a motorway).
• Pollution to water and air
• Health costs to users who are sedentary.
• this list goes on and on.

All these apply to PT in Ireland - with the exception of dart and Luas all our transport uses combustion engines which emit far more than a modern car would, and the majority of the fleets in question are older than the private cars they want replaced. I'd love to see the emissions comparison on that. Even where the Dart & Luas are concerned, the power generated for these is part of the baseload of the grid - which is supplied by a coal burning power plant (not the cleanest thing in the world).

We can also bring in the unreliable nature of PT, illustrated by the bomb scare on the dart earlier this week, had that happened at morning or evening rush hour, there would have been utter chaos - like what happens whenever a truck hits the bridge at the customs house

antoobrien

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Let me clarify: Its we as in us the Irish citizenry, and its representative in the form of the bankrupt, cash desperate Irish state, which possessess a practically brand new motorway network ripe for a tolling solution not based on tolls located at random points, but on a system based on usage. Much like the Swiss model or indeed like the M50 model. The money made will, like everything else, go back to paying the ROIs lawful debts.

The rest of ye can crib like little girls all ye like about Motor tax, it doesn't pay for roads and it doesn't come near to covering the costs of their construction, if you ever genuinely believed this to be so, then cop on.

From last years tax receipts the excise take for 2010 was €4.67 Billion. I've only been able to find analysis for the 2009 figures so we'll use these to try to break down how much money is being generated from taxes cars (not including motor tax).

In 2009 the total tax take form cigarettes and alcohol was approx 2bn out of 4.7 bn, with the excise take from cars will make up the majority of the remainder. I don't think it would be unfair to assume that about €2.25 Billion in excise duty was due to vehicle related taxing (imo that's a conservative number, giving away more than 10% of the excise budget for smaller items as i'm not aware of any other major contributors to excise).

Based on the assumption above vat on fuels would be at least €500m (excise contributes at least as much as the cost of oil to fuel prices) - the vat take was €10.6 total in 2009.

I haven't been able to find exact figures but this press release from the 2009 supplementary budget indicates that the total spend on roads in 2009 was to be €1.99 Billion. The vast majority of this was capital spend, such as the Motorways to Dublin. There was €448m (about 25% of the budget) set out for road maintenance for the relevant local authorities.


I know my figures aren't precise and they don't include the take from motor tax, but they are indicative that the Irish motorist already pays its way and probably is a net contributor to the public finances from direct taxes.

Cookie_Monster

antoobrien wrote: »

All these apply to PT in Ireland - with the exception of dart and Luas all our transport uses combustion engines which emit far more than a modern car would, and the majority of the fleets in question are older than the private cars they want replaced.

DB and BE have pretty modern fleets all in all and IR have a mix. emissions per passenger km covered would be much lower than private car use. While a private car may produce 1/10th the emission of a bus say, you can divide the buses emissions by 70-100 people over the same distance giving a much lower overall impact for passenger KM travelled.

antoobrien

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

DB and BE have pretty modern fleets all in all and IR have a mix. emissions per passenger km covered would be much lower than private car use. While a private car may produce 1/10th the emission of a bus say, you can divide the buses emissions by 70-100 people over the same distance giving a much lower overall impact for passenger KM travelled.

I'd be very impressed to see a bus with 100 people on it. I'm open to correction but I don't think any of the double deckers are certified to carry more than about 70 people and coaches are 53 seaters (and afaik not allowed to have standees any more)

KevR

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

DB and BE have pretty modern fleets all in all and IR have a mix. emissions per passenger km covered would be much lower than private car use. While a private car may produce 1/10th the emission of a bus say, you can divide the buses emissions by 70-100 people over the same distance giving a much lower overall impact for passenger KM travelled.

That's working on the assumption that every bus has a decent number of passengers. What about buses that have only a few people (i.e. - if the bus only has 3 or 4 passengers then a taxi would be a lot more environmentally friendly).

On most bus routes, half of the fleet is going against the tide at any one time. This is important to remember.

Fuel efficiency has got worse in buses in recent years while it has improved in cars. Very heavy equipment such as wheelchair ramps and hydraulics which allow the bus to lower itself closer to the kerb when it is stopped have decreased fuel efficieny on buses. This equipment is important and necessary but the fact remains that car fuel efficiency has steadily improved while it has gone the opposite direction in buses. A modern fuel efficient car with 4 or 5 passengers can't be much worse than most buses (excluding buses which are full).

I agree that public transport can offer big environmental benefits but I think some people over simplify it.

FGR

What surprises me is how the NRA haven't considered the effect of the Toll on the Waterford Bypass. On a number of occasions I have ended up following HGVs through the city in order to avoid the toll.

If they do the same with any other bypass; the Jack Lynch Tunnel in particular; then the urban areas which they're meant to benefit will end up becoming gridlocked again.

antoobrien

ForegoneReality wrote: »

What surprises me is how the NRA haven't considered the effect of the Toll on the Waterford Bypass. On a number of occasions I have ended up following HGVs through the city in order to avoid the toll.

If they do the same with any other bypass; the Jack Lynch Tunnel in particular; then the urban areas which they're meant to benefit will end up becoming gridlocked again.

I have the same concern regarding making bypasses motorways (e.g. redesignation of Athlone DC).

Rabidlamb

Where is the proposed extra toll for the M9 going.
As long as it's below Carlow I'm all for it.

road_high

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Where is the proposed extra toll for the M9 going.
As long as it's below Carlow I'm all for it.

I would imagine somewhere between Carlow and Kilcullen as to maximise revenues as this is the bursiest section of the new road.

invinciblePRSTV

antoobrien wrote: »

I know my figures aren't precise and they don't include the take from motor tax, but they are indicative that the Irish motorist already pays its way and probably is a net contributor to the public finances from direct taxes.

That's some fine research work antoobrien but it still doesn't take away from my main point - that is a comprehensive tolling system of our motorway network is desirable and inevitable in these times, and the best way to go about it is to follow international models where everyone pays on an equitable basis rather then on an ad hoc basis like proposed.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

That's some fine research work antoobrien but it still doesn't take away from my main point - that is a comprehensive tolling system of our motorway network is desirable and inevitable in these times, and the best way to go about it is to follow international models where everyone pays on an equitable basis rather then on an ad hoc basis like proposed.

So its hit the already over taxed motorists now even though it has been shown they more than pay thier way. I dont know how everyone will be paying on an equitable basis, as some might be heavily hit by tolls, while others wont ever have to use them.

invinciblePRSTV

robbie7730 wrote: »

So its hit the already over taxed motorists now even though it has been shown they more than pay thier way.

Over taxed compared to who Robbie? Irish petrol prices still compare favourably to many other european countries.

robbie7730 wrote: »

I dont know how everyone will be paying on an equitable basis, as some might be heavily hit by tolls, while others wont ever have to use them.

The system as proposed isn't equitable, with tolls lopped at a few points around the network. Having a system whereby anyone using the network would be charged commensurate to their use of the network is more fair.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Over taxed compared to who Robbie? Irish petrol prices still compare favourably to many other european countries.

Well you had said motorists dont pay their way and that was the reason we need tolls. Now it seems motorists do pay their way and with a surplus, so now your saying its still needed because of the country`s financial state. But the same motorists are already bailing the country out in every way that can be thought of as it is.

Some people would still agree with every charge we are hit with even if the air we breath was tax`d by the litre.

veryangryman

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well you had said motorists dont pay their way and that was the reason we need tolls. Now it seems motorists do pay their way and with a surplus, so now your saying its still needed because of the country`s financial state. But the same motorists are already bailing the country out in every way that can be thought of as it is.

Some people would still agree with every charge we are hit with even if the air we breath was tax`d by the litre.

Exactly. Enough is enough. I am not willing to have my taxes increased when there is next to no improvements to the road network. Its a joke to suggest that we should. And an insult to our intelligence to suggest that these increases would have happened anyway if there were no bankers to bail out.

The motorist by their very nature is a pacifist who gets on with their job, paying their taxes. As such they are an easy target for increases. I think they should stand up for themselves more. How many of you query your local TD about their plans for more motor charges when they call round to your door during election time?

Me neither. Im just saying...maybe we should. The situation is becoming increasingly unsustainable. Only so much blood one can get from a stone.

invinciblePRSTV

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well you had said motorists dont pay their way and that was the reason we need tolls. Now it seems motorists do pay their way and with a surplus, so now your saying its still needed because of the country`s financial state. But the same motorists are already bailing the country out in every way that can be thought of as it is.

Some people would still agree with every charge we are hit with even if the air we breath was tax`d by the litre.

Hey fair enough, i admit i didn't realise the numbers involved were as high. Nonetheless it doesn't change the point i've made from my first post in this thread is that things like excise, motor tax and the like aren't for building new roads and that whinges about the Irish motorist having 'more than paid their way' are nonsense. It's the Irish taxpayer, along with the EU and banks which have paid for the network.

You can construct an argument all you like about how excise has paid for x,y & z but the reality these all go into one pot - general expenditure -and are distributed accordingly. Just as easily the construction sector, the MNCs and the consumer can make the argument they've paid for the new roads if you want to base it all on exchequer returns.

If people want to pursue a persecution complex then go ahead, but the prospect of tolling the national motorway network is a low hanging fruit waiting to be picked. I argue for an equitable solution based on a PAYG principle with people tolled irrespective of where they get on/off the network, some of ye seem quite content to argue that only certain locations should be tolled, hmm i wonder why;).

Btw you said the Irish motorist is overtaxed, i ask again compared to whom?

KevR

veryangryman wrote: »

Exactly. Enough is enough. I am not willing to have my taxes increased when there is next to no improvements to the road network. Its a joke to suggest that we should. And an insult to our intelligence to suggest that these increases would have happened anyway if there were no bankers to bail out.

The motorist by their very nature is a pacifist who gets on with their job, paying their taxes. As such they are an easy target for increases. I think they should stand up for themselves more. How many of you query your local TD about their plans for more motor charges when they call round to your door during election time?

Me neither. Im just saying...maybe we should. The situation is becoming increasingly unsustainable. Only so much blood one can get from a stone.

Pressure mounting on Obama because the price of fuel in the US has reached approximately €0.75 per litre (link). Petrol in Galway is €1.54 per litre! I know Ireland is a small island so high fuel prices won't affect us quite as badly and I know that we have a high number of kilometres of road per head of population but what we are paying is astronomical compared to people in the US.

PS - bear in mind that this is with the euro being quite strong against the dollar at the moment. We will have to pay more for fuel if the euro weakens against the dollar and the gap of what we pay compared to people in the US will widen further.

veryangryman

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Btw you said the Irish motorist is overtaxed, i ask again compared to whom?

High taxes are fine where services, infrastructure and health are all catered for. Compare to the UK, an admittedly higher tax country.

1) Rail service to main airports. We dont have this
2) NHS > Irish Health Service. I cant see anyone disagreeing on this
3) Very few tolls on the motorway network
4) Taxes not wasted on welfare (eg the small amount of the dole makes the wasters get up and get a job)

Bang for buck is key. We dont get much of that. Our tax is only slightly behind the UKs and we are getting feck all for it.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

If people want to pursue a persecution complex then go ahead, but the prospect of tolling the national motorway network is a low hanging fruit waiting to be picked.

The irish population are like an orchard being robbed at every possible opportunity.

Btw you said the Irish motorist is overtaxed, i ask again compared to whom?

Cant see why your bothered about that, obviously you advocate more expense on motorists for some reason. I say we pay enough as it is.

invinciblePRSTV

veryangryman wrote: »

High taxes are fine where services, infrastructure and health are all catered for. Compare to the UK, an admittedly higher tax country.

It's a chicken and egg scenario, you want an increase in services like the ones you've listed below, but you won't pay high taxes 'til you get them? can you see the massive gaping hole in that logic?

veryangryman wrote: »

1) Rail service to main airports. We dont have this
2) NHS > Irish Health Service. I cant see anyone disagreeing on this
3) Very few tolls on the motorway network
4) Taxes not wasted on welfare (eg the small amount of the dole makes the wasters get up and get a job)

Bang for buck is key. We dont get much of that. Our tax is only slightly behind the UKs and we are getting feck all for it.

1) the Irish state has been humming and hawing about building a metro link to the main airport - the one that has more passengers then all the others together and then some - in this state for the best part of two decades, political inertia and the transport spend been eaten up by every two-bit town needing its own bypass and every 'city' needing a motorway has meant this hasn't happened. Blame the citizens.

2) We could have have had a NHS style health service decades ago if the political will was there to accomodate Noel Browne desires, and not ne influenced by vested interests. Ultimately its the citizens fault for continually re-electing the same politicians in hoc to the same interests, so again blame the citizens.

3) Our Mway network is mainly free at present bar inconsistent application of tolls, if we can make money out of it then go we should go ahead and toll it in a logical manner. Unless of course you want bigger classroom sizes, more crowded hospitals and other public services cut so you can have toll free motoring. So whats it going to be? the bills have to be paid somehow, and you're saying tolling is off the table, so what you going to cut instead?

4) Tabloid tattle tbh. The vast majority of people on the dole aren't there by choice, get that into your head. If we want to make savings in the welfare budget then scrap child benefit to those who don't need it.

robbie7730 wrote: »

The irish population are like an orchard being robbed at every possible opportunity.

Get used to it. Perhaps blame yourself or your parents for voting for FF/PDs/FG/Lab?

robbie7730 wrote: »

Cant see why your bothered about that, obviously you advocate more expense on motorists for some reason. I say we pay enough as it is.

Money to be made on the Mway network, and i have no problem paying to use them, particularly if a national tolling scheme is implemented in an equitable and not a haphazard manner.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

1) the Irish state has been humming and hawing about building a metro link to the main airport - the one that has more passengers then all the others together and then some - in this state for the best part of two decades, political inertia and the transport spend been eaten up by every two-bit town needing its own bypass and every 'city' needing a motorway has meant this hasn't happened.

Two-bit towns? All these town by-passes seem to have tolls on them, maybe they should never have been bypassed so and we would have our airport metro?

Blame the citizens.

So it is your fault as well that two-bit towns have been wrongly bypassed, or is it only some citizens?

Ultimately its the citizens fault for continually re-electing the same politicians in hoc to the same interests, so again blame the citizens.

Maybe your right. Although not every citizen voted for them.

3) Our Mway network is mainly free at present bar inconsistent application of tolls, if we can make money out of it then go we should go ahead and toll it in a logical manner. Unless of course you want bigger classroom sizes, more crowded hospitals and other public services cut so you can have toll free motoring. So whats it going to be? the bills have to be paid somehow, and you're saying tolling is off the table, so what you going to cut instead?

You think tolling the motorways will solve the above? Maybe they could put a toll booth at the entrance to every estate.

4) Tabloid tattle tbh. The vast majority of people on the dole aren't there by choice, get that into your head. If we want to make savings in the welfare budget then scrap child benefit to those who don't need it.

True, on both counts, many seem to miss that first one.

Get used to it. Perhaps blame yourself or your parents for voting for FF/PDs/FG/Lab?

Your making assumptions now. We will have to get used to it alright, but i wont be blaming the parents.

ardmacha

You think tolling the motorways will solve the above?

All money collected helps solve the present fiscal situation. You cannot disregard possibilities because they don't solve it all at once. That is not to say that you should toll every motorway, but it is not equitable that M1 and M3 users pay to travel to Dublin while M9 users are not asked to contribute,so some extension of tolls is logical.

Bruthal

ardmacha wrote: »

You cannot disregard possibilities because they don't solve it all at once.

Somehow i doubt any possibility will be disregarded.

invinciblePRSTV

robbie7730 wrote: »

Two-bit towns? All these town by-passes seem to have tolls on them, maybe they should never have been bypassed so and we would have our airport metro?

No they don't and we would've had cash for an metro and many other worthy PT projects if a more rational approach to roads development had occurred over the past few decades, water under the bridge now and all that sadly.

robbie7730 wrote: »

So it is your fault as well that two-bit towns have been wrongly bypassed, or is it only some citizens?

Collectively it's our fault. We're all in this together remember?

robbie7730 wrote: »

You think tolling the motorways will solve the above? Maybe they could put a toll booth at the entrance to every estate.

Nope just toll the motorways and other national primaries, every little helps to pay back what the country owes.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Your making assumptions now. We will have to get used to it alright, but i wont be blaming the parents.

Don't blame them, but perhaps don't listen to them on political matters anyway.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Collectively it's our fault. We're all in this together remember?

So it is all citizens fault so, even though you said this

Get used to it. Perhaps blame yourself or your parents for voting for FF/PDs/FG/Lab?

So even if we did not vote for any of them , its still our fault anyway? I guess there was no point in you saying it so.

Anyway, thats the end of that, as i said, some will agree with every single way they come up with to get more out of us. Im not saying you would, but some will.

veryangryman

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

1) the Irish state has been humming and hawing about building a metro link to the main airport - the one that has more passengers then all the others together and then some - in this state for the best part of two decades, political inertia and the transport spend been eaten up by every two-bit town needing its own bypass and every 'city' needing a motorway has meant this hasn't happened. Blame the citizens.

Who here said that any 2 bit town needed a bypass? For me its logical to connect the LARGEST cities (Galway, Cork and Limerick in this case). You will also notice how i didnt advocate Motorway (M18) north of Oranmore.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

2) We could have have had a NHS style health service decades ago if the political will was there to accomodate Noel Browne desires, and not ne influenced by vested interests. Ultimately its the citizens fault for continually re-electing the same politicians in hoc to the same interests, so again blame the citizens.

In fairness to the citzens, there isnt much to choose from that run for election. The smartest people will never go into politics - thats a fact of life. Witness McWilliams, Hobbs etc - all were asked but none took it. Even George Lee left it very early. Whatever your opinion on these people, they are a hell of a lot better than whats there right now (which again is an improvement on the previous lot)

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

3) Our Mway network is mainly free at present bar inconsistent application of tolls, if we can make money out of it then go we should go ahead and toll it in a logical manner. Unless of course you want bigger classroom sizes, more crowded hospitals and other public services cut so you can have toll free motoring. So whats it going to be? the bills have to be paid somehow, and you're saying tolling is off the table, so what you going to cut instead?

Top bankers pensions, salaries, bonuses. Letting banks fail in the way capitalism is supposed to work
Telling bondholders that they cant and wont be paid as it is stagnating the country

Honestly, quit being the grim reaper. There are many, many ways out of this without making people suffer long term. Even if we fall out with Europe and the banks, theyll be back. Theyve been back in Argentina and Sweden before if you need examples of countries that have done this. To say we need to cut schools/welfare is scaremongoring of the highest order.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

4) Tabloid tattle tbh. The vast majority of people on the dole aren't there by choice, get that into your head. If we want to make savings in the welfare budget then scrap child benefit to those who don't need it.

There were at least 100,000 people on the dole during the boom years, a good proportion of which did not want to work.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Get used to it. Perhaps blame yourself or your parents for voting for FF/PDs/FG/Lab?

Its not as if they had much choice - remember you can only vote for who runs. As above, the best people dont run - hence how the disillusioned have voted in Ming Flanagan this time around.

And finally...

Under EU law, a road that has been paid for (partly or otherwise) with EU money cannot be tolled. Is that law still standing or has something changed?

cork_south

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/motorists-face-triple-whammy-of-hikes-in-tax-tolls-and-petrol-2629166.htmlMotorists face triple whammy of hikes in tax, tolls and petrol


By Paul Melia (This guys is full of good news :-) )

Tuesday April 26 2011

Hikes in motor tax, fuel costs and new motorway tolls are among a range of measures in the pipeline that will affect already hard-pressed motorists.
Drivers can expect to pay more to tax their car from early next year because of the impact that greener cars are having on the State's coffers.
A review of the motor tax system is expected to result in a new band for the most efficient cars, with increases across the board in the existing bands.
The hikes are expected to be announced in December and come as motorists face record petrol prices, the prospect of more motorway tolls and an increase in carbon tax.
The price of a litre of petrol, which is currently around €1.53, is expected to rise by at least 2pc when the carbon tax is increased in December from €15 per tonne to €25.
The Government is also considering a raft of motorway tolls to help generate new sources of revenue.
The review of motor tax rates comes after the introduction of a system in January 2009 -- for new cars only -- which rewarded drivers of more fuel-efficient and less-polluting vehicles.
Under the new system, instead of taxing new cars based on engine size, as is the case for those bought before July 2008, they are now charged between €104 and €2,100 a year on the basis of how much carbon dioxide they emit.
But the changes, along with a sharp drop in car sales, have resulted in the Exchequer taking a €650m hit. Figures from the Department of Finance show that, in 2008, the State took in over €1bn on vehicle registration tax charged on new cars. This has fallen to €380m.
Meanwhile, other motor tax payments amounted to €953m last year, a dip of €30m due to people switching to more efficient vehicles.
Motor tax is paid to local authorities to help run essential services and pay for road improvements. Unless the shortfall is made up, householders can expect to see a cut in services.
Officials are considering introducing a new 'lower' band to reward drivers of the most efficient cars, but a hike across all tax bands is also likely.
The Department of Finance has committed to reviewing and adjusting bands and plans before 2013, but sources said changes could be introduced in December's Budget. A spokesman for Environment Minister Phil Hogan said "all options" would be considered.
The Consumers' Association of Ireland said motorists were being unfairly targeted.
"The motorist is always a target," chief executive Dermott Jewell told the Irish Independent. "The roads are in a disastrous state, and what are we going to get for our money? The Government should put a ceiling on tax so where fuel is at €1.30 per litre or above, VAT would not be imposed, which would give some benefit."
The AA, meanwhile, said most countries had a 'polluter pays' motor tax regime, which was forcing manufacturers to make more efficient cars.

invinciblePRSTV

robbie7730 wrote: »

So it is all citizens fault so, even though you said this



So even if we did not vote for any of them , its still our fault anyway? I guess there was no point in you saying it so..

What are you trying to get at here besides trying to bait me? This is the roads forum lad, not after hours, have a bit more cop on. you understand that we have to accept responsibility for decisions taken on our behalf, by politicians that we may or may not have supported? so yes, collectively it is our fault but that doesn't mean we shouldn't remember exactly who did or didn't cheerlead the consensus that drove the bubble, much like FG and to a lesser extent Labour.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Anyway, thats the end of that, as i said, some will agree with every single way they come up with to get more out of us. Im not saying you would, but some will.

No ones out to get us, lose the persecution complex:rolleyes:. The state has assets which it needs to make money off to pay its lawful debts, the brand new Mway network is a perfect place to start.

veryangryman wrote: »

Who here said that any 2 bit town needed a bypass? For me its logical to connect the LARGEST cities (Galway, Cork and Limerick in this case). You will also notice how i didnt advocate Motorway (M18) north of Oranmore. )?

I said it, take a look at the NRAs recently scrapped to do list, reams of projects which will never be built inc. bypasses of x,y & z. Indeed take a look at the interurbans which duplicate themselves over the Irish countryside, a large dollop of common sense would have rationalised the interurban programme. Again its water under the bridge.

veryangryman wrote: »

In fairness to the citzens, there isnt much to choose from that run for election. The smartest people will never go into politics - thats a fact of life. Witness McWilliams, Hobbs etc - all were asked but none took it. Even George Lee left it very early. Whatever your opinion on these people, they are a hell of a lot better than whats there right now (which again is an improvement on the previous lot)?

Not really, a lot of Irish people have convinced themselves that FG are different to the previous lot, to me they're identical twins arguing from the same ideological base. Tweedlee/tweedledum if you will.

veryangryman wrote: »

Top bankers pensions, salaries, bonuses. Letting banks fail in the way capitalism is supposed to work
Telling bondholders that they cant and wont be paid as it is stagnating the country?

If you are such an ardent fan of capitalism then surely you'd agree that it's inproper that the Irish state has to subsidise road building? surely in a strictly business sense you'll agree the idea that the Irish state has to offer shadow tolls and pay when traffic numbers don't reach certain targets is abhorrent to sound capitalist logic?

veryangryman wrote: »

Honestly, quit being the grim reaper. There are many, many ways out of this without making people suffer long term. Even if we fall out with Europe and the banks, theyll be back. Theyve been back in Argentina and Sweden before if you need examples of countries that have done this. To say we need to cut schools/welfare is scaremongoring of the highest order. ?

No i'm not playing the role of grim reaper, just pointing out you think it's fine that the State will have to cut essential services to make up the shortfall in revenue which could be collected by implementing relatively painless measures like a national tolling system.

If you want to argue that the state should default then that's for another thread, but to me it seems like you're saying that the precious Irish motorist is to be protected from new tolling measures then the money that would be raised from that will have to be raised elsewhere, so i ask again, where else is the money going to come from?

veryangryman wrote: »

There were at least 100,000 people on the dole during the boom years, a good proportion of which did not want to work. ?

As already explained to you by another poster, the state experienced full employment during the boom. Show me a modern economy and with 0% unemployment adn i'll show you my pet unicorn.

veryangryman wrote: »

Its not as if they had much choice - remember you can only vote for who runs. As above, the best people dont run - hence how the disillusioned have voted in Ming Flanagan this time around.?

Surely the disillusioned voter elected FG & Labour?

veryangryman wrote: »

Under EU law, a road that has been paid for (partly or otherwise) with EU money cannot be tolled. Is that law still standing or has something changed?

I reckon the EU will turn a blind eye to Ireland introducing new tolling measures if it wants it's loan money back.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What are you trying to get at here besides trying to bait me? This is the roads forum lad, not after hours, have a bit more cop on.

Cop on? To what, that its not after hours here? I remember you using the cop on phrase about the taxes motorists already pay,
As for trying to bait you, a persecution complex is it? You said its likely my fault the way the country is, as i probably voted FF etc, then you say its all our faults anyway as we are all in it together, so i said why mention who i likely voted for if its my fault regardless, you brought up the "who you voted for" rubbish, not me, why mention who i likely voted for if its my fault either way? So cop on yourself before mentioning who i likely voted for, then getting the "bait me" rubbish out when i reply to it.

No ones out to get us, lose the persecution complex:rolleyes:. The state has assets which it needs to make money off to pay its lawful debts, the brand new Mway network is a perfect place to start.

Persecution complex? I thought you had that thinking im baiting you. I like the way you say the motorway tolls are a good place to start, maybe you have a 5 point plan have you?