Motorists face new charges as number of toll roads to double

runway16

No one is forced to pay a road toll in this country.

There are alternatives for every single toll route we have, including the M50.

So to argue about struggling mortgage payers is not really relevant to the debate because they are not forced to use the toll route.

If you dont want to, dont use it. That Simple.

I dont like having to pay a toll, but if it's the only way we can get some roads built (because we still have a LOT of work to do on our road network), then so be it. We will just have to accept it and pay, or not accept it, take the current road, and dont pay.

At least with this, you have a choice. Unlike the Universal Social charge.

Bullseye1

No to tolls on existing roads which have already been financed by EU funds. The proposed toll on the N11 would be an insult to the 20 or more people who have been killed on the stretch of road between Rathnew and Arklow Bypasses.

The government gets enough money from vat sales on cars, motor tax and duty on fuels. This money should be put towards road infrastructure and not into the kitty to keep people employed in the Public sector.

No doubt the people championing these are living in areas with adequate public transport.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I really think a discussion on defaulting is best suited for the politics forum tbh.

Was there a discussion here on it? Suggesting it as an option is all i seen anyway.

Hey Robbie are you there? you've gone awful quite when i asked you a simple question.... still waiting on a reply to my previous post, no more ad hominem or dirges about the poor mortgage holders please in your response....

Many very simple questions cant be answered by anyone, its the answers that are not simple, especially when they have pre-conditions about how i can answer.

Bruthal

runway16 wrote: »

So to argue about struggling mortgage payers is not really relevant to the debate because they are not forced to use the toll route.

Well it is really, as the tolls will be going on roads already there, so motorists are already using them, and will suddenly have to pay to use the same roads. So instead of driving the same way to work etc, drivers can avoid the new proposed tolls by taking alternative routes, like you suggest. Just add another hour to the driving time and you will be grand.

I dont like having to pay a toll, but if it's the only way we can get some roads built (because we still have a LOT of work to do on our road network), then so be it. We will just have to accept it and pay, or not accept it, take the current road, and dont pay

It would be purely as an extra tax collecting measure, not for road construction. Motorists already pay enough in taxes to cover the roads according to an earlier poster, with motor tax, and €35 or so tax for every fill of a 50 litre tank, and VRT.

invinciblePRSTV

robbie7730 wrote: »

Was there a discussion here on it? Suggesting it as an option is all i seen anyway.



Many very simple questions cant be answered by anyone, its the answers that are not simple, especially when they have pre-conditions about how i can answer.

In otherwords, you don't have anything to add. Just shouting down whatever is proposed because it's "unfair".

Just as i suspected:).

veryangryman

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

In otherwords, you don't have anything to add. Just shouting down whatever is proposed because it's "unfair".

Just as i suspected:).

You "suspected" correct - It IS unfair. Unfair, unjust, disproportionate, you name it.

Nothing to add because the argument is quite simple - distribute the bill more evenly among potential taxpayers or default. Raping the motorist is not an option. Our anal virginity has been taken a long time ago my friend.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

In otherwords, you don't have anything to add. Just shouting down whatever is proposed because it's "unfair".

Just as i suspected:).

If you say so invincible, if you say so....

invinciblePRSTV

veryangryman wrote: »

You "suspected" correct - It IS unfair. Unfair, unjust, disproportionate, you name it.

Nothing to add because the argument is quite simple - distribute the bill more evenly among potential taxpayers or default. Raping the motorist is not an option. Our anal virginity has been taken a long time ago my friend.

Surely by introducing road pricing measures such as a national tolling system then the bill is being more evenly distributed then random tolling measures?

veryangryman

Taxpayers and Motorists are not one and the same. So no, it does not more evenly distribute anything.

Also, every other non-tolled motorway has already been paid for by the taxpayer. Im happy to pay tolls where this is not the case. Tolling roads already paid for is a big gigantic no-no, and we all hope and pray that the EU law on this is not danced around.

You keep asking what the NRA can do to raise revenue. I say they are already doing >50% more than what they should be. This question need not be asked of the NRA (or any other government for that manner). Broken record time again...default

antoobrien

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Surely by introducing road pricing measures such as a national tolling system then the bill is being more evenly distributed then random tolling measures?

The tolls aren't random, they're targeted on specific roads i.e. the roads that were built using the PPP model instead of up front payment by the NRA. Before making misleading statements like that, take a look at the NRA website, there's details there on how all the projects are funded.

KevR

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Surely by introducing road pricing measures such as a national tolling system then the bill is being more evenly distributed then random tolling measures?

In your proposal, would I still have to pay €4.50 one way between Galway and Liffey Valley; would it cost me a lot more; or would I pay less?

You argue that the current random tolling measures are unfair because some people have to pay while others can drive long stretches of high quality road for free. Part of your argument is that it would be 'fairer' for the whole motorway network to be tolled and everyone has to pay.

If it's going to cost me the same or more for journeys that I regularly make and it's also going to cost me for journeys I make infrequently and if thousands of others have to pay for journeys that they used to be able to make toll-free.........then it certainly won't be fairer on me or on anyone else.

I typically only have to pay tolls on long distance journeys that I make. I am happy to do that. I don't think it's unfair or unreasonable. Increasing the number of tolls won't make it fairer unless existing toll prices are reduced!!

serfboard

KevR wrote: »

In your proposal, would I still have to pay €4.50 one way between Galway and Liffey Valley; would it cost me a lot more; or would I pay less?

You argue that the current random tolling measures are unfair because some people have to pay while others can drive long stretches of high quality road for free. Part of your argument is that it would be 'fairer' for the whole motorway network to be tolled and everyone has to pay.

If it's going to cost me the same or more for journeys that I regularly make and it's also going to cost me for journeys I make infrequently and if thousands of others have to pay for journeys that they used to be able to make toll-free.........then it certainly won't be fairer on me or on anyone else.

I typically only have to pay tolls on long distance journeys that I make. I am happy to do that. I don't think it's unfair or unreasonable. Increasing the number of tolls won't make it fairer unless existing toll prices are reduced!!

Leo Varadkar was on Pat Kenny this morning and he seems to be in favour of what he called multi-point road pricing. He was saying something in the region of 50c per toll spread out over a motorway, as opposed to the single points as we have now. I would imagine that the total would be less than or equal to the existing prices (so Galway->Dublin total would be the same).

To answer your point, it would indeed mean that people who currently do not have to pay, (e.g. somone going Athlone->Tullamore, for example) will have to.

invinciblePRSTV

antoobrien wrote: »

The tolls aren't random, they're targeted on specific roads i.e. the roads that were built using the PPP model instead of up front payment by the NRA. Before making misleading statements like that, take a look at the NRA website, there's details there on how all the projects are funded.

What's misleading about the statement that tolls are placed on Irish motorways in a random manner? You're trying to muddy the waters by suggesting i don't know why tolls are on Irish roads currently, i do know why and it feeds into my argument that a progressive tolling system will cover the entire national network, not just random points scattered around the network due to the piecemeal nature of the construction of the motorways.

KevR wrote: »

In your proposal, would I still have to pay €4.50 one way between Galway and Liffey Valley; would it cost me a lot more; or would I pay less? .

I couldn't tell you, simply because there would be a degree of complexity in melding a national toll system onto the numerous private toll operators scattered around the country.

KevR wrote: »

You argue that the current random tolling measures are unfair because some people have to pay while others can drive long stretches of high quality road for free. Part of your argument is that it would be 'fairer' for the whole motorway network to be tolled and everyone has to pay.

That's it in a nutshell yes. Although it's not strictly about fairness, it's also about raising revenue.

KevR wrote: »

If it's going to cost me the same or more for journeys that I regularly make and it's also going to cost me for journeys I make infrequently and if thousands of others have to pay for journeys that they used to be able to make toll-free.........then it certainly won't be fairer on me or on anyone else.

KevR wrote: »

I typically only have to pay tolls on long distance journeys that I make. I am happy to do that. I don't think it's unfair or unreasonable. Increasing the number of tolls won't make it fairer unless existing toll prices are reduced!!

You seem to be making the argument here that you don't think its fair that your commuting habits should not be tolled. I disagree, the consequence of the state's poor approaches to planning matters and spatial development result in people thinking 100km+ commutes are feasible when they aren't. PErhaps road pricing measures and fuel costs will, sooner or later, make people realise that investment in public transport and living in urban areas is more cost effective for both the citizen and the state.

Bruthal

I`d say you would argue a blackboard is white if others said its black.

antoobrien

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What's misleading about the statement that tolls are placed on Irish motorways in a random manner? You're trying to muddy the waters by suggesting i don't know why tolls are on Irish roads currently, i do know why and it feeds into my argument that a progressive tolling system will cover the entire national network, not just random points scattered around the network due to the piecemeal nature of the construction of the motorways.

By admitting the reason for the location of the tolls on new roads you admit they're not random. Thanks contradicting yourself there.

The tolls are on national routes, it seems that you're proposing tolling the national road system. We already have such a system it's called motor tax.

It is a legal requirement in Ireland to have motor tax if you want to drive your vehicle in a public place. Motor tax is a charge imposed by the Government on some motor vehicles. The revenue from this tax is used to maintain and upgrade the road network in Ireland. Motor tax is collected by your local authority on behalf of the Government.

Motor tax applies to every vehicle registered in the state that can is intended for use on public roads - no matter where they are used. In this light the tolls on new national routes make sense because the users of these roads are directly paying for the construction and upkeep of these roads, rather than lumping extra taxes on road users that won't be seeing a motorway for years (e.g. Mayo).

Under the current tolling scheme, I pay €13 to do a round trip between Dublin and Galway to see my family (at home). This amount I don't mind paying.

Under your scheme you'd also have me pay say €2.60 (this is an example based on the based on the M3 toll price, as I don't remember seeing your suggested pricing for a national tolling system) to see the rest of my family in North Co Galway using roads which:
1) Are already paid for
2) I am already directly funding the maintenance through motor tax
3) I am also indirectly funding through all the various taxes that the government & local authorities levy to run their services

veryangryman

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

it's not strictly about fairness, it's also about raising revenue.

Ok lets forget fairness - what is being proposed is unlawful according to EU

Bruthal

antoobrien wrote: »

The tolls are on national routes, it seems that you're proposing tolling the national road system. We already have such a system it's called motor tax.

Also as well as motor tax, for every 100km of driving, we probably pay around €5 in fuel duty, so its hardly free driving to drive on roads already payed for. Paying tolls to use a facility we already paid for seems ridiculous.

veryangryman

Well... If its a levy then its perfectly legal. Remember that duty is still going to be charged regardless of whether you drive 100 miles on the M50 or the Lwhatever so it doesnt discriminate on the road that you use

Bruthal

Its still a motoring tax.

invinciblePRSTV

antoobrien wrote: »

By admitting the reason for the location of the tolls on new roads you admit they're not random.

Thanks contradicting yourself there.

Let's clear this up, you think that because certain sections of the network have a toll on them as part of contractual arrangements for their construction, that this equates to an evenly spread national tolling system? and that even though there are only a certain amount of tolls located on each, but not all, of the main routes, and often at obscure points, that they aren't random in their location?

Clearly you're having a laugh. If you want me to hold your hand and describe using examples how the location of a toll on some Mways, whilst others have none or several along their route, and which are often in the middle of nowhere, is random, then just ask.

antoobrien wrote: »

The tolls are on national routes, it seems that you're proposing tolling the national road system. We already have such a system it's called motor tax.

I'm proposing the Mway network plus perhaps the national primaries should be tolled. And, as has been mentioned already, motor tax is a funding mechanism for local government, not roads.

I know, i know, it's unfair this and it's not right that. But that's the way it is.

antoobrien wrote: »

Motor tax applies to every vehicle registered in the state that can is intended for use on public roads - no matter where they are used. In this light the tolls on new national routes make sense because the users of these roads are directly paying for the construction and upkeep of these roads, rather than lumping extra taxes on road users that won't be seeing a motorway for years (e.g. Mayo).

See my above point on motortax, and as for Mayo not seeing a Motorway for years, for gawds sake why would it need one? :pac:

Btw, rural dwellers are subsidised by the state as is. Chances are it's the urban dweller in Dublin or Cork who might not even have a car which would be paying for the shiny new Mayo Motorway.

antoobrien wrote: »

Under the current tolling scheme, I pay €13 to do a round trip between Dublin and Galway to see my family (at home). This amount I don't mind paying.

Under your scheme you'd also have me pay say €2.60 (this is an example based on the based on the M3 toll price, as I don't remember seeing your suggested pricing for a national tolling system) to see the rest of my family in North Co Galway using roads which:

I'd argue that in a national tolling scheme that a set amount per KM which would mean you'd pay on distance travelled rather then the one off tolls in situ, but no i don't have a pricing scheme.

Let's clear up a few more misconceptions while we're here

antoobrien wrote: »

1) Are already paid for

No they're not. Roads require ongoing maintenance and need huge monies each year to fix.

antoobrien wrote: »

2) I am already directly funding the maintenance through motor tax

As has been mentioned, motor tax is designated for local government spending, it is not for the maintenance of roads per se.

antoobrien wrote: »

3) I am also indirectly funding through all the various taxes that the government & local authorities levy to run their services

Shur aren't we all? no one likes paying for things, but again the pressing financial need to sweat the state's assets to pay back debts means that implementing a comprehensive tolling system is one of the easier things to do.

Maybe one day once the Irish state get's the monkey off its back in terms of the ginormous debts it's carrying then toll money from a national system could be put towards road construction.

VAM wrote: »

Ok lets forget fairness - what is being proposed is unlawful according to EU

As we've already seen with the M8 WGH controversy, the rules can be bended. And i'd be quite certain the EU would look the other way again when the idea of tolling national routes to pay the debt is pitched at them.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Let's clear this up, you think that because certain sections of the network have a toll on them as part of contractual arrangements for their construction, that this equates to an evenly spread national tolling system? and that even though there are only a certain amount of tolls located on each, but not all, of the main routes, and often at obscure points, that they aren't random in their location?

Clearly you're having a laugh. If you want me to hold your hand and describe using examples how the location of a toll on some Mways, whilst others have none or several along their route, and which are often in the middle of nowhere, is random, then just ask.

The toll positions were chosen, not picked from a map with a set of darts blindly thrown. What you really mean is introduce more and more tolls until no matter where you drive you have to pay a toll. If there are 20 toll plaza`s or 100, both numbers can be evenly spread. But the existing ones were chosen to maximise user numbers. You really believe the locations were picked from a hat, thats actually what random means. But of course, you will have another arguement about what it means.

How many will be needed before its suddenly not radom according to your definition of random? And now you want to toll national routes as well? Only one poster is having a laugh here.

If this is one of your simple proposals to get more money from the citizens, well i can imagine your other ones. The more i read of your posts the more i see the default word myself.

invinciblePRSTV

Great here comes Robbie with some more nit picking pot shots:rolleyes:.....

robbie7730 wrote: »

What you really mean is introduce more and more tolls until no matter where you drive you have to pay a toll. If there are 20 toll plaza`s or 100, both numbers can be evenly spread.

No, I've proposed a national tolling system, not endless toll plaza's.

robbie7730 wrote: »

The toll positions were chosen, not picked from a map with a set of darts blindly thrown.

robbie7730 wrote: »

But the existing ones were chosen to maximise user numbers. You really believe the locations were picked from a hat, thats actually what random means. But of course, you will have another arguement about what it means.

Let's go back to see what i said before you start having kittens....

Surely by introducing road pricing measures such as a national tolling system then the bill is being more evenly distributed then random tolling measures?

As elaborated upon in my previous post, tolls are located in a random order around the network. As a simple example, you can get on the M8 going south at J15 and pay a toll, but if you get on at J17 you'll pay no toll, or on the M50 you can get on and off at certain junctions but once you cross the magic line you're charged.

Now, what word would you use to describe the manner in which tolls are located or applied around the network?

Haphazard? Uneven? disorganised? well Robbie?.....

But no, you decide to take the definition of random literally and extrapolate from my post some guff about the NRA, dart boards and the like. It's exactly the kind of nonsense you've been coming out with all thread.

Speaking of which.....

robbie7730 wrote: »

How many will be needed before its suddenly not radom according to your definition of random? And now you want to toll national routes as well? Only one poster is having a laugh here.

Hey if i'm having a laugh, then you're having a moan. We're all still waiting on you to produce a post of substance rather then the cribbing and whinging which have characterised your contributions to this thread.

Wah we can't do this

Wah we can't do that

Wah it's so unfair

Here lad, take some of these and throw them out of your pram.....

robbie7730 wrote: »

If this is one of your simple proposals to get more money from the citizens, well i can imagine your other ones. The more i read of your posts the more i see the default word myself.

You're a great man for shouting down what you don't like, so let's hear your proposals?

C'mon Robbie, we're waiting........................

Bards

I've been following this thread with interest- The easiset way to implement a National "User Pays" Principal is just to increase fuel by 5c per litre and get rid of all tolls.

or if you don't like that - do as they do in Switzerland and get everyone who wants to use the Motorway network buy a special Sticker called a
vignette http://www.autobahnen.ch/index.php?lg=001&page=014

do you know how much it costs to administer (read Money wasted) some of the toll operations. upwards of €1m+ per year

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

You're a great man for shouting down what you don't like, so let's hear your proposals?

C'mon Robbie, we're waiting........................

No, your waiting. My proposal is we pay enough to drive our cars as it is, its simple enough, what more do you want? This thread is about toll roads set to double. Not everyone is pleased to have more and more tolls, obviously you will be though. I wonder why? Purely out of interest for the country`s welfare is it?

Hey if i'm having a laugh, then you're having a moan. We're all still waiting on you to produce a post of substance rather then the cribbing and whinging which have characterised your contributions to this thread.

Laughable. Again, "We're all still waiting". I have news for you, not everyone on this thread agrees with your "proposals"

Well here is a post that characterises your posts

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

This is the second time in this thread you've hinted at a prospect that i'm somehow biased against the US. Is this your standard debating tactic? get hammered on the nitty gritty details so you resort to darkly hinting i'm somehow anti something?

I see you just dont like any hint of losing an arguement.
Very familiar looking.

Wah we can't do this

Wah we can't do that

Wah it's so unfair

What did you say about posts of substance?

You really cant keep to a debate can you. Just take a step back. You want extra tolls to be introduced all over the country, others dont. And so when others disagree with you, the above is your response? You either feel your winning a debate, or you resort to the actions of a spoiled child. Im not trying to win any debate, thats where you are confused, i am stating a point.

You came in claiming motor taxes dont pay roads, obviously as one of your reasonings to strengthen the extra tolls idea, but you were shown to be completely wrong.


Now, you mentioned whinging....

For a start, earlier you claimed i was boring you, which is a personal claim, but of course thats ok, because once you said it, it must be ok, yet you came back whinging i abused you when i said you are indeed invincible. So its obvious you do everything to show you are winning, but some of us just post to give an opinion on an idea. Its not a point of fact in this thread being debated, its an idea or proposal, so people have a right to opinions without your condescending or childish remarks.


If you want your tolling system, and more even distribution, and pay as you drive, thats fine, but do away with motor tax, then we all pay as we drive. You also said lets bend the rules a bit, and toll the roads against EU law. Somehow i bet if we bent a rule that did not suit your arguement, you would be the first to quote such a rule.

You mentioned the word equitable plenty of times, well motor tax itself is not equitable. One driver might drive hundreds of miles a week, while another drives to the local school half a mile away, you think thats equitable? It goes against equitable taxation, but im guessing you will say thats fine of course, because its already in place.

KevR

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

You seem to be making the argument here that you don't think its fair that your commuting habits should not be tolled. I disagree, the consequence of the state's poor approaches to planning matters and spatial development result in people thinking 100km+ commutes are feasible when they aren't. PErhaps road pricing measures and fuel costs will, sooner or later, make people realise that investment in public transport and living in urban areas is more cost effective for both the citizen and the state.

I was commuting Galway-Athlone daily up until I moved recently. I was paying a toll each way and was happy to do so because it's a high quality road which saved me quite a bit of time. It's a reasonable toll for an 80km stretch of motorway.
I have never lived outside an urban area. I lived in Galway but got a job in Athlone - I commuted for the first few months because I wasn't in a position to move right away; I eventually did move and I now walk to work everyday. While I agree that 100km+ commutes aren't a good idea, it isn't always feasible for people to be close to their place of work.

In terms of tolling commuter routes, tolling the likes Loughrea/Athenry to Galway would be stupid. Very few people will pay to drive such a short stretch when there is a decent free alternative. The extra revenue that it would raise would not even be worth talking about. It would be pointless.

It annoys me when people try to make out that we have to choose between good roads and good public transport. We don't! We just can't/couldn't do both at the same time. We decided to build some good roads first. We will improve our public transport in the future.

Maybe rail and bus fares should be taxed more (subsidy cut in other words) - the extra money can be used to pay off bank debt (remember that it can't and should not be ringfenced for public transport improvements)..

Amtmann

InvinciblePRSTV infracted for getting needlessly personal in post #143.

invinciblePRSTV

robbie7730 wrote: »

No, your waiting. My proposal is we pay enough to drive our cars as it is, its simple enough, what more do you want? This thread is about toll roads set to double. Not everyone is pleased to have more and more tolls,

It's not good enough though is it? just saying you reckon you pay enough doesn't really say or solve anything. The fiscal crisis is still there, the state still needs to make money and save money across all area's and the pressure is on the DoT and the NRA to do this.

So go on then, tell us where else the DoT can save some cash? Money has to made and saved by all organs of state and just saying you pay enough as it is just doesn't cut the mustard. Sorry.

robbie7730 wrote: »

obviously you will be though.

:rolleyes:

robbie7730 wrote: »

I wonder why? Purely out of interest for the country`s welfare is it?

Pretty much, we don't all base our opinions on me feinism.

Do i savour the prospect of paying a toll to use the hitherto free Lee Tunnel? nope, but i do accept what the country needs to do to balance the nations finances.

What about you Robbie? you agree that the state should or shouldn't make attempts to solve the fiscal crisis it finds itself in?

robbie7730 wrote: »

Laughable. Again, "We're all still waiting". I have news for you, not everyone on this thread agrees with your "proposals"

A few posters have agreed that road pricing is desirable, not that they're agreeing with me per se but citing international examples to make their points.

Do you have anything to make your points beyond saying how unfair it all is?

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well here is a post that characterises your posts



I see you just dont like any hint of losing an arguement.
Very familiar looking.

wow if you think that's bad then don't look at my soccer forum posts. Glad you've gone digging through my posting history, my only question is why?

robbie7730 wrote: »

What did you say about posts of substance?

I said your posts lack any.

robbie7730 wrote: »

You really cant keep to a debate can you. Just take a step back. You want extra tolls to be introduced all over the country, others dont. And so when others disagree with you, the above is your response? You either feel your winning a debate, or you resort to the actions of a spoiled child. Im not trying to win any debate, thats where you are confused, i am stating a point.

It's funny how all precious and upset you're getting. You're the one who personalised this debate by claiming that "i should get out more" and resorted to nefarious insinuations, which you continue to do like above, all because i argue for new tolling measures and rightly dismissed the notion perpetuated by you and others that road tax pays for maintenance.

robbie7730 wrote: »

You came in claiming motor taxes dont pay roads, obviously as one of your reasonings to strengthen the extra tolls idea, but you were shown to be completely wrong.

Hey i acknowledged i was incorrect in excise duties collected compared to roads spending and i hold my hands up on that.

Now are you going to admit you were wrong and that motor tax isn't for roads maintenance and spending?

Or that the Irish motorist isn't over taxed?

Fair is fair Robbie, i admit when i'm incorrect, are you?

robbie7730 wrote: »

Now, you mentioned whinging....

For a start, earlier you claimed i was boring you, which is a personal claim, but of course thats ok, because once you said it, it must be ok, yet you came back whinging i abused you when i said you are indeed invincible. So its obvious you do everything to show you are winning, but some of us just post to give an opinion on an idea. Its not a point of fact in this thread being debated, its an idea or proposal, so people have a right to opinions without your condescending or childish remarks.

You must have forgotten that post where you told me "to get out more" just because i said i got bored when you went off on one on something that had nothing to do with the thread topic, and all because of a flippant comment i made. But hey if you want to get all amateur psychologist on us then be my guest.

Now i'm no saint myself, but it takes 2 to tango. My condescending and childish remarks came because you're quite annoying robbie. You've come onto this thread saying it's all unfair, you won't come up with any points of substance to counter the suggestions, you've made insinuations on why i might be supportive of tolling measures, you've posted epically long posts on the most minor of points trying to wrong me and you got personal.

All in all, I don't think i'm wrong in my assessment of your posting style.

robbie7730 wrote: »

If you want your tolling system, and more even distribution, and pay as you drive, thats fine, but do away with motor tax, then we all pay as we drive.

Finally we get an idea, of sorts, from you. It only took you about 20 posts on this thread to make it.

robbie7730 wrote: »

You also said lets bend the rules a bit, and toll the roads against EU law.

I based that observation on precedence, specifically the M8 Watergrasshill example.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Somehow i bet if we bent a rule that did not suit your arguement, you would be the first to quote such a rule.

What does this sentence even mean?

robbie7730 wrote: »

You mentioned the word equitable plenty of times, well motor tax itself is not equitable. One driver might drive hundreds of miles a week, while another drives to the local school half a mile away, you think thats equitable? It goes against equitable taxation, but im guessing you will say thats fine of course, because its already in place.

Look stop presuming things, it does you no favours. Where did i say i thought motor tax was equitable? What I repeatedly said was that motor tax isn't for roads maintenance, and that's something you've seemingly decided to ignore.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

My condescending and childish remarks came because you're quite annoying robbie.

Yes it must be annoying when someone disagrees with you alright, its an awful problem with boards, but you really shouldnt take it to such a personal level that it annoys you. But if you cant do that, you best keep your condescending and childish quotes for future use in case someone else disagrees with or annoys you.

You've come onto this thread saying it's all unfair, you won't come up with any points of substance to counter the suggestions, you've made insinuations on why i might be supportive of tolling measures, you've posted epically long posts on the most minor of points trying to wrong me and you got personal.

The first personal post in this thread was from you. Perhaps your so annoyed you are forgetting that.


And,, I said, for the 50th time, motorists pay their way for motoring. Is it really that complex? The thread is about introducing double the amount of tolls. I say we pay enough for motoring, as do a fair few other posters, not that it matters, but you are going on like only i oppose more tolls.

All in all, I don't think i'm wrong in my assessment of your posting style.

Thanks for your assessment, how much do i owe you for that post of substance you keep making reference to?

Finally we get an idea, of sorts, from you. It only took you about 20 posts on this thread to make it.

To what, conform to your requirements? Not many would have a problem with tolls if the motor tax was removed. But thats not your proposal, is it?
If my posts are not as good as yours, thats my problem, it should not be annoying you.

Look stop presuming things, it does you no favours. Where did i say i thought motor tax was equitable? What I repeatedly said was that motor tax isn't for roads maintenance, and that's something you've seemingly decided to ignore.

No favours indeed, oops,,, whats this...............

Originally Posted by invinciblePRSTV
Get used to it. Perhaps blame yourself or your parents for voting for FF/PDs/FG/Lab?

I suppose that was flippant? So you can post in a manner you tell me not to, then just say it was flippant.

What about you Robbie? you agree that the state should or shouldn't make attempts to solve the fiscal crisis it finds itself in?

Well the people of ireland have had many tax increases as it is, in attempts to assist the problems, but you state the above like we have not had to pay any extra taxes already. But you come back saying blah this blah that, in your "posting style".

Its simple, you say more tolls, and the reason for that is its an easy target to hit motorists.

wow if you think that's bad then don't look at my soccer forum posts. Glad you've gone digging through my posting history, my only question is why?

Amazingly enough, every now and again i look outside this tolls thread. And everyone is looking at that bin laden thread, i wonder why, perhaps because you post in it?



Anyway, its only boards, so dont be getting so annoyed and upset. If i annoy you, then you do take posting too personal. I am surprised you got an infraction, i thought the post was funny myself, even if very childish, but as you said, i annoy you so thats why you become childish, you might grow out of that.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

i argue for new tolling measures and rightly dismissed the notion perpetuated by you and others that road tax pays for maintenance.

So the notion i and others have, that calculating motoring taxes and comparing them to motoring infrastructure costs, you think is wrong? But saying motor tax money does not go to roads is simply an excuse you use to call for more money from the motorists, which is going to happen anyway as motor tax will go up soon. So your already getting your extra money there. Not enough for you though hey?

Hey i acknowledged i was incorrect in excise duties collected compared to roads spending and i hold my hands up on that.

Now are you going to admit you were wrong and that motor tax isn't for roads maintenance and spending?

Again, thats all your about, proving your right, isnt it?

Where exactly does the road maintenance money come from so? And where exactly does the motor tax money go to? The motor tax money can go where it likes, it is tax, tax is used to run the country, and part of that is maintaining roads. And the taxes taken from motorists covers the expenses of repairing roads with a surplus. So your claim that motor tax is not for roads is just another point for you to use to prove your right.

I forget the figures so i will use examples....
2 billion from motor taxes paid. State pays 1 billion for road maintenance. But motor tax was not used for the roads we are told, so we made no contribution to road maintenance according to your posts.

Fair is fair Robbie, i admit when i'm incorrect, are you?

You had no choice, it was spelt out for you in black and white. And it was part of your initial reasoning as to increasing tolling.

Bruthal

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Now, what word would you use to describe the manner in which tolls are located or applied around the network?

Haphazard? Uneven? disorganised? well Robbie?.....

Lucrative.