Sinn Fein proposing a United Ireland referendum...

KeithAFC

caseyann wrote: »

They might just do that,since they know England doesn't want them anymore.What is the benefits they have for being with England?
Not much.And for us to be a united Ireland with their resources and ours brought together with stronger trading,after a bit of hiccup will all start to gel.:)
The votes in Ireland and in UK are in higher favour to reunite all of Ireland and no English interference.

Some people just don't get it do they? I mean, it really isn't even about just the Union or the crown. The Protestants in general in Northern Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists consider themselves different people from the people in the republic.

Its the love of the land which is Ulster. Many of us see Ulster as a different country and i am talking about the 9 counties of Ulster. One day i hope we can unite our 3 counties with the 6. Its a simple case of a country for a different people.

We don't believe in the Irish republic. Simple really.

danbohan

Adrian009 wrote: »

But its not just those up north. Everyone down south will have to have a say in it too. I don't see any urgency in the south for an overnight expansion of their country.

What you have to ask yourself is, what's in it for me?

What you have to ask yourself is, what's in it for me?

which is one of the reasons the south is in the sh1111t its in today , me me me me

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people just don't get it do they? I mean, it really isn't even about just the Union or the crown. The Protestants in general in Northern Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists consider themselves different people from the people in the republic.

Its the love of the land which is Ulster. Many of us see Ulster as a different country and i am talking about the 9 counties of Ulster. One day i hope we can unite our 3 counties with the 6. Its a simple case of a country for a different people.

We don't believe in the Irish republic. Simple really.

Keith on that basis you would happy with the nine counties of ulster voting together as a block on the national issue.

Good stuff.

Adrian009

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Unionists are the scurge of the Irish and British Isles. No one would dare deny Unionists the right to learn Ulster Scots (or whatever the name of that language they claim to speak is called) and yet the absolute hypocrites attempt to block a language which was spoken in Ulster more so than anywhere else on this island at one stage. I've never mentioned refusing Unionists rights. We have a history of Protestant heads of state, freedom of religious (and do not throw the special position of the Catholic Church into a rebuttal on that point because it would show a complete lack of understanding on your part). Rule by the majority would give Sinn Féin rule in the north after the Local Elections, would it not? In that case, bring it on!

If that's the way you feel, then its clear you and unionist should not be in the same country. Thus, no united Ireland.

Guy:Incognito

danbohan wrote: »

which is one of the reasons the south is in the sh1111t its in today , me me me me

So instead we should go with a policy of dive in and hope for the best?

If it's of no benefit to the people and the country why the hell would we want to do it?

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Keith on that basis you would happy with the nine counties of ulster voting together as a block on the national issue.

Good stuff.

It would be a dream for the 3 counties in the Irish republic to leave it but it is only a dream.

Count Duckula

As a proud Englishman I can say that I hope this happens and I hope it passes. The UK government have already made an agreement that when the majority is in favour of Irish unification there a referendum will take place and it will be for the people or Ireland to decide whether they want to unify.

There's also a pervading train of thought in mainland Britain that we don't care anymore. That sounds horrible, but people of my generation are of the opinion that if the Northern Irish want to just be Irish then bloody let them. Life's too short for all this ****e.

I think that Northern Irish independence or union with the South would meet far less resistance in Britain than some Irish nationalists think.

caseyann

The protocol for deciding on a united Ireland is clear enough. Under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Northern Secretary may "by order direct the holding of a poll ... if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland". A similar poll or referendum would have to take place simultaneously in the Republic of Ireland.

As it happens, the next Census in Northern Ireland is next year: on Sunday 27th March 2011 to be precise. Next year also happens to be the first time the Census will take place in the same year North and South of the border since 1991 (on Sunday 10th April 2011 in the South). The 2011 census in Northern Ireland (and the UK as a whole) will be the first in which people will be able to complete the census online. So the results will be out quickly ...

In the event that the 2011 census revealed a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland, then the Northern Secretary would certainly come under pressure to hold a referendum within a year or two of the results. Assuming a majority approved the re-unification of Ireland in simultaneous referenda in the North and in the South (the Republic's constitution requires that a majority in both jurisdictions approve re-unification), then a few more years of procedural and legislative arranging could see a united Ireland ... by 2016.

So it's one to watch. If there is a referendum on a united Ireland in the next few years then its advocates might note that the 1998 act also requires that the Northern Secretary does not hold another poll for seven years after the previous one. We might be looking at 2018-2019 for the sequel. In which case analyses of the North's school age populations by blogger Ulster's Doomed! (you get the drift) suggest every likelihood of a Catholic majority later in the decade.
http://www.turbulenceahead.com/2010/03/united-ireland-by-2016.html

Great article.
I would love to actually see a proper analysis of it all done by Northern Ireland and Republic together.


Roman Catholic 605,639
Presbyterian 336,891
Church of Ireland 279,280
Methodist 59,517
Other Denominations 122,448
None 59,234
Not stated 114,827

POINTBREAK

"The province currently receives around £16.5 billion from the Treasury each year for public expenditure. However, only about half that amount is generated from taxation within Northern Ireland, meaning that if the province was an independent country it would have one of the worst budget deficits in the world and would quickly collapse in debt."
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"Citing one report which calculated that 77.6 per cent of economic activity in Northern Ireland was dependent on government spending.
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From memory 180,000 people are on Benefits and 60,000 are signing on the dole. That's 240,000 not working or roughly one in four of the population.
-

---

Tell me you still want it.........and better still tell me why.

POINTBREAK

caseyann wrote: »

The protocol for deciding on a united Ireland is clear enough. Under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Northern Secretary may "by order direct the holding of a poll ... if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland". A similar poll or referendum would have to take place simultaneously in the Republic of Ireland.

As it happens, the next Census in Northern Ireland is next year: on Sunday 27th March 2011 to be precise. Next year also happens to be the first time the Census will take place in the same year North and South of the border since 1991 (on Sunday 10th April 2011 in the South). The 2011 census in Northern Ireland (and the UK as a whole) will be the first in which people will be able to complete the census online. So the results will be out quickly ...

In the event that the 2011 census revealed a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland, then the Northern Secretary would certainly come under pressure to hold a referendum within a year or two of the results. Assuming a majority approved the re-unification of Ireland in simultaneous referenda in the North and in the South (the Republic's constitution requires that a majority in both jurisdictions approve re-unification), then a few more years of procedural and legislative arranging could see a united Ireland ... by 2016.

So it's one to watch. If there is a referendum on a united Ireland in the next few years then its advocates might note that the 1998 act also requires that the Northern Secretary does not hold another poll for seven years after the previous one. We might be looking at 2018-2019 for the sequel. In which case analyses of the North's school age populations by blogger Ulster's Doomed! (you get the drift) suggest every likelihood of a Catholic majority later in the decade.
http://www.turbulenceahead.com/2010/03/united-ireland-by-2016.html

Great article.
I would love to actually see a proper analysis of it all done by Northern Ireland and Republic together.


Roman Catholic 605,639
Presbyterian 336,891
Church of Ireland 279,280
Methodist 59,517
Other Denominations 122,448
None 59,234
Not stated 114,827

You are making a serious mistake in thinking all Catholics are Nationalists. Its easily done though. The loyalist murder gangs made the exact same mistake.

caseyann

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people just don't get it do they? I mean, it really isn't even about just the Union or the crown. The Protestants in general in Northern Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists consider themselves different people from the people in the republic.

Its the love of the land which is Ulster. Many of us see Ulster as a different country and i am talking about the 9 counties of Ulster. One day i hope we can unite our 3 counties with the 6. Its a simple case of a country for a different people.

We don't believe in the Irish republic. Simple really.

Tell you what get a big hack saw and cut off the parts you want and float away Sorted lol

You dont seem to get it there is hundreds of thousands of Irish who are living there to and want to be apart of republic.
Your ancestors got that land through war and murder and oppression and stealing.
We are willing to forget that move on and accept yous as apart of our land even if you dont see yourself as Irish which is kind of odd since this is Ireland.But that is your right as a human being and we wouldn't be forcing you to say otherwise,Also your unionists would be in government and you wouldnt have to fear being oppressed .But you have no right to force the Irish who want to be a republic to have to live under British rule to appease you anymore.
Sorry thats how i feel.
Irish put up with the whining and crap and bigoted oppression of possibly your ancestors for decades.

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Unionists are a scurge? According to who? You can't simply label people with a different political opinions to you as "scurge". If that was the case I would label Republicans as "scurge", the American type not the Irish type. Also ithe term is British Isles, get over it.

We have a history of labeling ordinary decent prodestents "black" in this country, we have a history of violence where prodestents were targeted based on their supposed political connections, we have a history of armed violence when we don't get our way. We are hardly in the position of loking down on the British from some sort of metaphorical high ground.

We'll have to wait and see the results of the coming elections for the last bit.

According to the Irish and British people. Britons who I'm in college with would absolutely love to see Northern Ireland removed from the Union. It is a huge burden on them (between 6 and 12 billion pounds depending on which source you believe). They need to stop the bigotry and allow nationalists to learn Irish in their schools if they so wish.

These people aren't political opponents to me; I don't label Fianna Fáil the scurge of the Irish people. Let's be reasonable here.

I have Protestant blood in my family and over simplifying Unionists as Protestants, especially in an Irish example, is completely wrong.

We have a history of armed violence backed up by political support. Hence the 1910s and early 1920s IRA had support while the 1980s and 1990s IRA did not.

I don't usually correct grammar or spelling mistakes on here, I think it's lame, but for God's sake will you learn how to spell ProTestant. It's highly embarrassing and ignorant!

Oasis_Dublin

POINTBREAK wrote: »

Yes but the Irish language is of little or no importance to most Catholics in NI.

It's culturally significant. It would be naive to claim anything otherwise.

Guy:Incognito

POINTBREAK wrote: »

"The province currently receives around £16.5 billion from the Treasury each year for public expenditure. However, only about half that amount is generated from taxation within Northern Ireland, meaning that if the province was an independent country it would have one of the worst budget deficits in the world and would quickly collapse in debt."
-

So we'd only have to stick €19B a year in to it for a return of about €9B? Brilliant.

So basically a bank bailout every 7 years. Cant see why people would have a problem with that.

I hope everyone thats lookign for a united Ireland referendum is upfront and tealls everyone those figures.

Oasis_Dublin

Adrian009 wrote: »

But its not just those up north. Everyone down south will have to have a say in it too. I don't see any urgency in the south for an overnight expansion of their country.

What you have to ask yourself is, what's in it for me?

I would realistically still see it being a Yes vote from us in the south. It would be closer than some republicans on here think but I do feel victory for a 32 county republic would be achieved.

Oasis_Dublin

Adrian009 wrote: »

If that's the way you feel, then its clear you and unionist should not be in the same country. Thus, no united Ireland.

That's foolish. Not everyone in everyone society is supposed to agree with Unionists on every matter, 100% of the time.

gurramok

POINTBREAK wrote: »

You are making a serious mistake in thinking all Catholics are Nationalists. Its easily done though. The loyalist murder gangs made the exact same mistake.

And you are making a serious mistake assuming a significant portion of Catholics are Unionists with fantasy figures.

Fact remains that 40%+ and growing of the electorate have voted for Nationalist parties that want a UI, that's the real poll that counts. Respect it.

gurramok

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So we'd only have to stick €19B a year in to it for a return of about €9B? Brilliant.

So basically a bank bailout every 7 years. Cant see why people would have a problem with that.

I hope everyone thats lookign for a united Ireland referendum is upfront and tealls everyone those figures.

Err the British govt right now is going to cut back at least 3bn from public expenditure in NI. They are doing the ground work on the cost front already.

caseyann

POINTBREAK wrote: »

You are making a serious mistake in thinking all Catholics are Nationalists. Its easily done though. The loyalist murder gangs made the exact same mistake.

How am i assuming that? I made no such comment.I added the numbers in relation to religion as per the referendum.As it may called for when the catholic numbers are of high proportions.As per census says higher.And i am under no assumption of anything.I am sure loads of protestant etc.. Irish.
I am not a thick with a bomb or a gun thanks very much

PatsytheNazi

POINTBREAK wrote: »

2007 335888 293767 42121

Doesn't look right to me
2007
DUP 36 +6 207,721 30.1 +4.4
SF 28 +4 180,573 26.2 +2.6
UUP 18 -9 103,145 14.9 -7.7
SDLP 16 -2 105,164 15.2 -1.8
AP 7 +1 36,139 5.2 +1.6
I make that 285.700 Nationalist votes..........NOT 293700.

From your own table :
DUP 207,721 + UUP 103,145 = 310,866
SF 180,573 SDLP 105,164 = 285,737
The difference been 310,866 - 285,737 = 25,129

The orginal stats below were divided between nationalist and unionist which included minority parties on both sides such as RSF, PUP etc
Year Unionism Nationalism Margin

2003 342907 280305 62602
2007 335888 293767 42121
2011 329000? 307000? 22000?

Adrian009

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

That's foolish. Not everyone in everyone society is supposed to agree with Unionists on every matter, 100% of the time.

Exactly.

POINTBREAK

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

According to the Irish and British people. Britons who I'm in college with would absolutely love to see Northern Ireland removed from the Union. It is a huge burden on them (between 6 and 12 billion pounds depending on which source you believe). They need to stop the bigotry and allow nationalists to learn Irish in their schools if they so wish.

WTF are you talking about? IRISH LANGUAGE is on the curriculum of most Catholic Grammar and Secondary schools in NI.
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Re Subvention: Most British (English) people would also like to see Scotland and Wales dumped for the same reason.

Adrian009

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I think the timing is a bit poor. Wait until McGuinness becomes NI First Minister (which should happen after the election) and until the results of this years UK and NI census to come out before doing anything rash. A united Ireland will happen, despite what the Unionists and soupers up the north may believe.

But its not just those up north. Everyone down south will have to have a say in it too. I don't see any urgency in the south for an overnight expansion of their country.

What you have to ask yourself is, what's in it for me?

Adrian009

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I would realistically still see it being a Yes vote from us in the south. It would be closer than some republicans on here think but I do feel victory for a 32 county republic would be achieved.

I honestly don't see any need for it. Its just a dogma that's past its time. Not worth killing anyone over.

Adrian009

celtictiger32 wrote: »

look there is loads of minority groups all over this island that have their little get togethers some people will always find something wrond with them. i do believe when we have a ui that these parades etc will become less and less contentious

Why?

Adrian009

caseyann wrote: »

Tell you what get a big hack saw and cut off the parts you want and float away Sorted lol

You dont seem to get it there is hundreds of thousands of Irish who are living there to and want to be apart of republic.
Your ancestors got that land through war and murder and oppression and stealing.
We are willing to forget that move on and accept yous as apart of our land even if you dont see yourself as Irish which is kind of odd since this is Ireland.But that is your right as a human being and we wouldn't be forcing you to say otherwise,Also your unionists would be in government and you wouldnt have to fear being oppressed .But you have no right to force the Irish who want to be a republic to have to live under British rule to appease you anymore.
Sorry thats how i feel.
Irish put up with the whining and crap and bigoted oppression of possibly your ancestors for decades.

So what about our ancestors?
They're DEAD.
There's thousands of Irish in the USA, Australia, Canada .... should we annex those parts of the world too? Why not certain parts of Manchester and London?

A united ireland is more trouble than its worth. And certainly not worth a single life. Unless you think so ..?

gurramok

Adrian009 wrote: »

A united ireland is more trouble than its worth. And certainly not worth a single life. Unless you think so ..?

The status quo produced about 3,500 deaths in 30 years.

POINTBREAK

gurramok wrote: »

And you are making a serious mistake assuming a significant portion of Catholics are Unionists with fantasy figures.

Fact remains that 40%+ and growing of the electorate have voted for Nationalist parties that want a UI, that's the real poll that counts. Respect it.

My "fantasy figures came from a well respected source funded by among others Martin Mc Guinness in his role as DFM. You need to accept that the 400,000 who do not vote for any of these idiots will not be voting for a UI.

PatsytheNazi

POINTBREAK wrote: »

My "fantasy figures came from a well respected source funded by among others Martin Mc Guinness in his role as DFM. You need to accept that the 400,000 who do not vote for any of these idiots will not be voting for a UI.

" a well respected source " The unionist version of Godwin’s Law - the Northern Ireland Life and Times survey And of course he adds non voters to unionism

POINTBREAK

Adrian009 wrote: »

But its not just those up north. Everyone down south will have to have a say in it too. I don't see any urgency in the south for an overnight expansion of their country.

What you have to ask yourself is, what's in it for me?

There would have to be two votes in effect. The people in the North would have to vote in favour and the People in the South would have to do the same.

Savage Tyrant

Adrian009 wrote: »

Can't we just have it now and get it over with????:rolleyes:

If it was up to me we'd have it tomorrow... But it won't be "over with" until it returns a United Ireland. Which it will.

PatsytheNazi

Adrian009 wrote: »

So what about our ancestors?
They're DEAD.
There's thousands of Irish in the USA, Australia, Canada .... should we annex those parts of the world too? Why not certain parts of Manchester and London?

A united ireland is more trouble than its worth. And certainly not worth a single life. Unless you think so ..?

We don't want to annex other parts of the world, we just want our own country back. Ever hear of the right of nations to self determination ? It's one of the basic principles of international law.

gurramok

POINTBREAK wrote: »

My "fantasy figures came from a well respected source funded by among others Martin Mc Guinness in his role as DFM. You need to accept that the 400,000 who do not vote for any of these idiots will not be voting for a UI.

Never accept fantasy figures based on crazy assumptions. What happened to the 900,000, its now reduced to 400,000? Did you do a Red C poll with them?

POINTBREAK

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

" a well respected source " The unionist version of Godwin’s Law - the Northern Ireland Life and Times survey And of course he adds non voters to unionism

Look Patsy, I am just telling you how it is. There is hardly any support in NI for a United Ireland. If you lived in a Republican community, you would think everyone wants it. They don't. They know the reality is that without the British support they would starve. 240,000 getting a weekly payout courtesy of the Brit Government, no jobs even for those that want them, free healthcare. Even free prescriptions. Nearly 600,000 people rely on the Government for work........do you seriously think they will vote themselves into poverty and unemployment????
Get real Man.

Adrian009

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people just don't get it do they? I mean, it really isn't even about just the Union or the crown. The Protestants in general in Northern Ireland and Loyalists/Unionists consider themselves different people from the people in the republic.

Its the love of the land which is Ulster. Many of us see Ulster as a different country and i am talking about the 9 counties of Ulster. One day i hope we can unite our 3 counties with the 6. Its a simple case of a country for a different people.

We don't believe in the Irish republic. Simple really.

I don't think most people in Ireland (as opposed to Ulster) would have a problem with that. Would it really be such a terrible thing to let the two alone? How does not haveing a UI make my life any worse???

POINTBREAK

gurramok wrote: »

Never accept fantasy figures based on crazy assumptions. What happened to the 900,000, its now reduced to 400,000? Did you do a Red C poll with them?

400,000 don't vote.......... 900,000 do not vote for Parties that support a UI.
I know you don't like the figures but they are factual.

Adrian009

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

If it was up to me we'd have it tomorrow... But it won't be "over with" until it returns a United Ireland. Which it will.

I doubt it, because the island of Ireland was never a unified soverign state.

PatsytheNazi

POINTBREAK wrote: »

Look Patsy, I am just telling you how it is. There is hardly any support in NI for a United Ireland. If you lived in a Republican community, you would think everyone wants it. They don't. They know the reality is that without the British support they would starve. 240,000 getting a weekly payout courtesy of the Brit Government, no jobs even for those that want them, free healthcare. Even free prescriptions. Nearly 600,000 people rely on the Government for work........do you seriously think they will vote themselves into poverty and unemployment????
Get real Man.

So why do they vote for nationalist parties such as SF and SDLP ? :rolleyes:

KeithAFC

caseyann wrote: »

Tell you what get a big hack saw and cut off the parts you want and float away Sorted lol

You dont seem to get it there is hundreds of thousands of Irish who are living there to and want to be apart of republic.
Your ancestors got that land through war and murder and oppression and stealing.
We are willing to forget that move on and accept yous as apart of our land even if you dont see yourself as Irish which is kind of odd since this is Ireland.But that is your right as a human being and we wouldn't be forcing you to say otherwise,Also your unionists would be in government and you wouldnt have to fear being oppressed .But you have no right to force the Irish who want to be a republic to have to live under British rule to appease you anymore.
Sorry thats how i feel.
Irish put up with the whining and crap and bigoted oppression of possibly your ancestors for decades.

Just another typical response of opressed and all that nonsense. Truth is the majority of Protestants on this Island WANT to remain within the United Kingdom.

gurramok

POINTBREAK wrote: »

400,000 don't vote.......... 900,000 do not vote for Parties that support a UI.
I know you don't like the figures but they are factual.

Then where did you get 500,000 who vote Unionist and the other 400,000 who would vote Unionist? Thought it was about 300,000?

You're figures are not facts, they are wild assumptions.

KeithAFC

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So why do they vote for nationalist parties such as SF and SDLP ? :rolleyes:

They might be republicans these people but they aren't stupid.

KeithAFC

gurramok wrote: »

Then where did you get 500,000 who vote Unionist and the other 400,000 who would vote Unionist? Thought it was about 300,000?

You're figures are not facts, they are wild assumptions.

Do you know how many Unionists there is in N.I?

Cakes.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Just another typical response of opressed and all that nonsense. Truth is the majority of Protestants on this Island WANT to remain within the United Kingdom.

How can the Island remain part of the Union if the Island is not part of the Union ?

gurramok

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do you know how many Unionists there is in N.I?

How many?

Adrian009

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

We don't want to annex other parts of the world, we just want our own country back. Ever hear of the right of nations to self determination ? It's one of the basic principles of international law.

... which means that unionists have a right to stay in the union, and Ireland has the right to leave out Northern Ireland.:D

KeithAFC

Cakesofrice wrote: »

How can the Island remain part of the Union if the Island is not part of the Union ?

I meant the majority of Protestants in N.I. Those want to remain in the UK.

PatsytheNazi

Adrian009 wrote: »

... which means that unionists have a right to stay in the union, and Ireland has the right to leave out Northern Ireland.:D

No, indeed the exact opposite. Ireland was coerced into partition, the six county statlet was based on a sectarian head count to gerrymander the country.

Adrian009

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

No, indeed the exact opposite. Ireland was coerced into partition, the six county statlet was based on a sectarian head count to gerrymander the country.

Yes, back then. Now a vote held tomorrow would have to get consent of a clear majority. That's not gonna happen if over 50% vote no.

And even after all that, what if the public down in Ireland votes against unification with Northern Ireland? THAT would put a stop to it!;)

caseyann

KeithAFC wrote: »

I meant the majority of Protestants in N.I. Those want to remain in the UK.

Well sorry tuff when the votes are counted on both sides of the border it will be in favour of being united.UK doesnt want the North anymore.You will have to accept that when it happens.
And at least you get a vote on it.

caseyann

Adrian009 wrote: »

Yes, back then. Now a vote held tomorrow would have to get consent of a clear majority. That's not gonna happen if over 50% vote no.

And even after all that, what if the public down in Ireland votes against unification with Northern Ireland? THAT would put a stop to it!;)

They wont down south vote against it the polls have proven it.;)