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Judaism & Islam
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Brown Bomber wrote: »So your assuming that I am assuming?...Well this is productive. . I am not assuming he is Jewish. He is ethnically Jewish but it is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Having said that his political leanings could be a factor but I don't believe so.
Segments of political Zionism are fully behind the spread of Islamaphobia
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/09/the-connection-between-zionism-and-organized-islamophobia-the-facts/
It was even written about in the (anti-semetic?) Jewish daily Forward just last year.
Some Zionist Groups Stoke Fear Of Islam for Political Profit
Read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:38BVq0SNJjkJ:www.forward.com/articles/131502/+%22Some+Zionist+Groups+Stoke+Fear+Of+Islam+for+Political+Profit%22&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.se#ixzz1L43DBLso
But back to the point. My opinion on his actions are based solely on his actions (or lack of). I've explained this in some detail already.
Your opinion on him seems solely based on your ignorance of his writing and the assumption that he is part of some Zionist movement because his mother is Jewish.
Oh what was that, you just happened to be mentioning Zionism on a completely unrelated point ... right
Brown Bomber wrote: »Well it's either a soft spot and he is lying by omission or he doesn't even know it exists because as far as I can tell he is yet to ever mention it. Which do you think it is?
I think the central problem here is the "as far as I can tell" bit.Brown Bomber wrote: »Yes. I am sure he does. When was the last time he referred to it in a interview or otherwise as the Hebrew Bible or The Tanakh?
When was the last time any non-Jewish person did that? The vast majority of people refer to the Jewish books at the Old Testament. I regularly refer to it as the Old Testament. Does that mean I am supporting Zionism? :rolleyes:Brown Bomber wrote: »He was asked a question about Christianity and Islam.
He was asked a question about Judaism and Christianity. The question he was asked is the bit in bold. He brought up the Qua'ran and proceeded to say that the Old Testament is far worse.Brown Bomber wrote: »What was he supposed to say? "No comment"?
What would you have liked him to say in order to keep with the stereotype you have of him? That the Old Testament is a book of peace but the Qua'ran is a book of war and violence? Would that have made more sense to you? :PBrown Bomber wrote: »That was a total of two sentences. Lets take his immediately prior point. What chance he is demonising Islam?
Harris thinks Islam is a hugely damaging and destructive religious and political force. But you aren't complaining about that. You are complaining that he supports Judaism and Zionism because he is never critical of these either.
So here you go, he is being critical of Judaism, saying that the Old Testament is far worse than anything you find in the Qur'an.Brown Bomber wrote: »Number of times Talmud mentioned: 0
He refers to the Talmud as the Old Testament. As most non-Jews do.
Perhaps this is the source of your misunderstanding?Brown Bomber wrote: »But the Qur'an, virtually on every page, is a manifesto for religious intolerance. I invite readers of your website who haven't read the Qur'an to simply read the book. Take out a highlighter and highlight those lines that counsel the believer to despise infidels, and you will find a book that is just covered with highlighter.
No one is pretending Harris likes the Qur'an. He doesn't.
Are you changing your complain from saying Harris is hypocritical to just simply that he criticizes the Qur'an? Are you a Muslim?Brown Bomber wrote: »No it's not. You are the only one interested in his ethnicity. I am not. I am interested in what he says/does and the broader impact that has on the world we live in. The only stereotypes involved are the facist ones portrayed by Harris of Muslims as evidenced by the poster here who "jokes" about Muslims being sub-human.
You have no evidence that Harris supports Judaism or Zionism except for the fact that you personally have not been satisfied that he criticizes them enough. :rolleyes:
You assume he supports Zionism because you believe he is secretly Jewish. You assume he should refer to the Old Testament as the Talmud because you believe he is secretly Jewish.
Remove your assumptions and things become a lot clearer.
LOL :rolleyes:Brown Bomber wrote: »1 - To clarify one way or the other my suspicions of Harris based on what I'd seen of him from people whom I wrongly it seems assumed would have the inside track.
You were shown a quote of Harris criticizing the Old Testament and you said he didn't refer to it as the Talmud so it doesn't count, when you only think he should refer to it as the Talmud because you think he is Jewish :PBrown Bomber wrote: »2 - I had rather hoped that atheists who present themselves as champions of reason would rationally be able to critique the work of Harris if presented from a different perspective.
Instead we rationally critiqued you. Must be annoying.0 -
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Brown Bomber wrote: »I wouldn't say personally offended any more than I am offended by the same rhetoric of more openly bigoted Islamaphobes like Pam Geller. I object to his demonisation of Islam, I think he is driven by hate of all religiion. I object to his pro-war cheerleading and I think he is dangerous because he seems to be a pied-piper of sorts.
In answer to your question as promised - I am neither Arab or Muslim. However, I have lived in a Moslem majority country and I work with immigrants/refugess who are primarily Arab and/or Muslim here in Sweden (a direct consequence of the wars Harris fetishes over). So I have some personal experience to know that Harris is full of **** when he speaks generally about Muslims.
Including Judaism?
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Insist? Absolutely not. I asked a question of you. This is by no reasonable definition insisting.Yet you insist that Harris should not refer to it as the "Old Testament" but instead as the Talmud?
See...When was the last time he referred to it in a interview or otherwise as the Hebrew Bible or The Tanakh?
While I have no particular expectations of an anonymous pseudonymn on the internet to know what The Talmud is it is ridiculous to consider that Harris, an "expert" who has researched and written extensively on the folly of religion and who has a stated aim of "destroying religion through science" would be waging his crusade on a whim and not actually know of the Talmuds existence.Why exactly, when you yourself have had to explain exactly what the Talmud is a number of times.
Therefore it must be concluded that he is lying through omission with his apparent zero mentions of The Talmud as it's influence (as explained) on Jewish fundamentalism is undeniable.
Why? That's the only part I am not sure of.
Based on this!?And based on this you claim to know that when Harris criticizes the Old Testament he is not talking about the Talmud? That he in fact supports the Talmud?
I can't imagine how you possibly came to your conclusions. It's like we aren't speaking the same language.
And Odd? No. A great many people know a great many things about cultures and religions that they are not themselves a part of.
I genuinely amn't trying to be patronising here but please learn the difference between The Torah and The Talmud. You clearly don't know the difference and you are using them interchangeably.
This is the different language thing again. There is nothing to deny but empty claims. This is what I'd said:Actually what you said was Harris is politically motivated and was like David Yerushalmi, a Jewish, anti-Islamic, white supremacist.
Are you denying that now?Moderate Islam is getting attacked from all angles. The hydra has many heads: grassroots, ignorant and mainly working class - EDL, BNP, Geert Wilder "Eurabia" types, and then you have Jewish supremacists like Dershowitz and Pipes, The Christian right/teaparty in the US, Islamaphobic politicians like Pete King, white nationalists/supremacists and then you have Islamaphobia for and by "intellectuals" with Sam Harris leading the way and then you have organisations that seem to be setup to only demonise Moslems like the Clarion Fund and SITE.
All the above converge more often than not on Islam.
I'll give you an example - David Yerushalmi.
A Jewish, anti-Islamic, white supremacist. David Yerushalmi
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/ti...ewish-fascist/
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...-ban-tennessee
In the above link he is campaigning against Sharia Law in the US, something that doesn't exist meanwhile there is (little known) Halachic arbirtration courts already in existence
http://www.bethdin.org/services.asp
Like Har'ris total hypocrisy on Judaism vs Islam.
I'd said that Harris' views on Islam converge with openly bigoted/racist/ xenophobic views of others.
I'd also said this:
Having said that his political leanings could be a factor but I don't believe so.
How on earth from that you got "Harris is a Jewish Zionist" is anyones guess but it's cool, write any old fabricated nonsense and Nodin and King Mob will thank you
It's not backtracking. I don't mean any disrespect but your questions literally don't make any sense because you don't actually know what you are talking about.And the back tracking begins ...
...More back tracking.You were given examples of Harris criticizing the Old Testament as something worse than the Qu'ran and you complained he didn't mention the Talmud specifically.
Firstly, I was given an unsourced example, singular. Secondly, I've already explained that you are not actually being critical of Jewish ideology by criticising the Old Testament unless The Rabbinical interpretations in The Talmud are taking into account. This part doesn't seem to actually be getting through so I'll try to explain by analogy.
Let's pretend you are studying the ideology of the Egyptians in the Pharonic eras and will be doing this by studying hieroglyphics (Old Testament). Unfortunately you haven't got the first clue about hieroglyphics and their meaning. On your desk is a book written by the highest authorites over centuries and it is claimed before that was passed down orally from the time of the very first hieroglyph (Talmud) which translates the meaning of symbols, you choose to ignore this entirely and critique your own interpretation of the symbols instead and superimpose this onto the Egyptian ideology.
Regardless, you write books, articles and give lectures on the barbarism of the anchient Egyptians based on your reading and interpretation the Hieroglyphics.
Let's pretend I am also studying the ideology of the same Egyptians and have access to the same hieroglyphics and the same translation book. I study the hieroglyphics together with the translation book.
Now of the two who is actually critiquing Anchient Egyptian ideology?
Like I said your question makes no sense. There is no definition of a "bad Jewish, Zionist" so I don't know how you can expect me to answer.I am. Like I said Harris makes a pretty bad Jewish Zionist, doesn't he?
As I already said I've no idea if he is culturally Jewish or not and to be honest I couldn't care less.So you admit Harris is not culturally Jewish.
Eh no. Never said that. The simple answer is that I don't know. It requires more reading.You admit Harris is not a Zionist.
Apparently he has said it, yes. The link was dubious but I accept it. As I said previously that was two sentences. Harris has said a lot more to contradict these two sentences.You admit Harris has criticized the Old Testament and Judaism saying it was worse than the Qu'ran.
Well no. I never even came close to saying this.You admit that it is not surprising that he didn't mention the Talmud specifically as you have had to explain to everyone here exactly what it is.Your search - site:samharris.org Wasael ush-Shia - did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.
Try fewer keywords.
Guess you were wrong about him and Islam, weren't you
That is pretty desperate. There are many books of Hadith and you have chosen a single one.
Apples and oranges. I think now you are being dishonest to deflect away from the fact that there is not a single mention of "Talmud" in the whole of Harris' entire site.
The only honest comparison that can be made to The Talmud would be it's actual Islamic equivalent the ahaditha. So let's see what Harris has to say about the ahaditha from the very same site...the Koran is one of the least promising documents ever written—despite the few lines that, read in isolation, seem to counsel patience, charity, tolerance, etc. And the hadith is even worse. It is a mainstream belief among Muslims that apostasy (the repudiation of Islam by a Muslim) should be punished by death (granted, this rule is only made explicit in the hadith).Rather than continue to squander precious time, energy, and good will by denying the role that Islam now plays in perpetuating Muslim violence, we should urge Muslim communities in the West to reform the ideology of their religion. This will not be easy, as the Koran and hadith offer precious little basis for a Muslim Enlightenment, but it is necessary.When one reads the Koran and the hadith, and consults the opinions of Muslim jurists over the centuries, one discovers that killing apostates, treating women like livestock, and waging jihad—not merely as an inner, spiritual struggle but as holy war against infidels—are practices that are central to the faith.According to a literalist reading of the hadith (the literature that recounts the sayings and the actions of the Prophet) if a Muslim decides that he no longer wants to be a Muslim, he should be put to death. If anyone ventures the opinion that the Koran is a mediocre book of religious fiction or that Muhammad was a schizophrenic, he should also be killed.for while the Qur’an does not explicitly demand the murder of apostates, the sacred literature of the hadith does, repeatedly and without equivocation.
Is it getting through yet?
Doesn't it say something to you when you have to distort and obfuscate just to justify yourself to yourself?0 -
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Brown Bomber wrote: »The Talmud's only importanc here is Harris wifully ignoring it. Otherwise I have little or no interest in it.
No the only thing of importance here is your willfully admission that you believe Sam Harris is a Jewish Zionist.
Whats that? You never said that?
But Brown Bomber, you don't have to say it. It is what you don't say that is important. Right?
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The penny clearly hasn't been dropping with you so I thought I would speed things along a bit by that prompting. Look back over this thread and see how many times you replied to me saying "I never said that"?
Not so much fun when you are on the receiving end, is it. But I guess people on the internet aren't real people so you can say what ever you like about them.0 -
Either reread the thread or stop with the fabrications. From my first post I said that my position is based on Harris' statements on the Talmud i.e. he has none and my position has been consistent throughout.You asked for evidence of Harris attacking religions other than Islam. You were given this and you insisted that only examples where he attacked the Talmud specifically would demonstrate him attacking religions other than Islam.
Are you now changing your mind?You seem to be spectacularly missing the point. I've no doubt that Harris knows the Talmad. We (the general public) don't.
You don't have a point. By your own admission you are ignorant of what we are talking about. What possible point could you have?
And because you yourself are ignorant of something everybody else must be? And if you are ignorant of a subject it is illogical that you could expand your mind by learning from a well researched author in I dunno... a book?
If the great unwashed are ignorant of a subject - which you by your own admission are it is better to ignore this subject? Is that really what you are saying? Because it is complete nonsense.
Think...Obviously he should be referencing both texts to comprehensively "attack" Judaism. Then if you knew what the Talmud was you would know this already.If Harris was to attack Judaism why reference a book no one has ever heard of, rather than say oh I don't know the Old Testament
Another point which you will doubtlessly ignore and attack more strawmen instead.Face it you got caught out. Your insistence that he should be attacking the Talmud or he isn't attacking Judaism at all is just stupid.
1. I never said he hasn't attacked Judaism. My argument is that he is a con man who uses secularism as his cover to promote hatred of an already persecutedy minority, Muslims , in the majority (if not all) of the lands of his target audience . He is Robert Spencer in a shirt and tie. His apparent denial of even the existence of The Talmud is a simple way of proving his selectivity.
2. By your own admission you don't even know what the Tamud is so to say that "Your insistence that he should be attacking the Talmud...is just stupid" Is just stupid.
I have done. Numerous times. You seem to be blind to facts that don't suit your view so I'll reduce it to a single word to see if that can get through.Again explain to my why he would attack Jewish fundamentalism by referencing the Talmud, a book no one has heard of, instead of what he actually died was by referencing the Old Testament.Ha·la·cha or Ha·la·khah also Ha·la·kah (hä
lä-
ä
, hä-lä
, -lô-) n. Judaism The legal part of Talmudic literature, an interpretation of the laws of the Scriptures.0 -
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No the only thing of importance here is your willfully admission that you believe Sam Harris is a Jewish Zionist.
Whats that? You never said that?
But Brown Bomber, you don't have to say it. It is what you don't say that is important. Right?
The penny clearly hasn't been dropping with you so I thought I would speed things along a bit by that prompting. Look back over this thread and see how many times you replied to me saying "I never said that"?
Not so much fun when you are on the receiving end, is it. But I guess people on the internet aren't real people so you can say what ever you like about them.
Awww, an emotional defense of Harris. :pac: So basically you've been trolling? It's not so much that it wasn't "much fun" more frustrating because I thought you were a bit slow and couldn't follow the conversation but your little game was pointless and achieved nothing.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7IPcgksDQMThis discussion has been closed.
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