12,50 an hour for qualified electricians

mattjack

beanie10 wrote: »

So there is only good electricians on €20 per hour!!!!As a contractor myself Ive come across my fair share of useless tits demand €1,000 per week.Im all for doing a job well and every one get paid (staff,suppliers,directors).Its about time that electricians in this country realise that there is no contractor getting €55 per hour to supply a qualified electrician, a more realistic figure is €30 per hour (which reduces to €25 per hour after 4 hours) and believe me if a contrtactor gets that he is lucky.

thats nowadays....I,ve seen those tits on site who tell you they can do anything...and I,m well aware that contractors often use subbies who pay thier own employees a differant rate...I,d agree with ya bout the 55 euros an hour thats gone now.. but 4 or 5 yrs ago that was what was being asked for...and I understand what you are saying about employer prsi,paying wholesalers,insurance and employing ancillary staff in offices

2011

Mattjack:

As far as I know the union rate now for an industrial electrician is 22 euros approx , employers about 55 euros an hour providing electricians...remember now... if you pay peanuts you,ll get monkeys....

The rate is the same for industrial and domestic electricians.
At the moment employers get nowhere near €55 an hour even in the industrial sector (even on day works). Part of my job is to review tenders from E & I contractors.

Speaking as a qualified electrician I feel that in general electricians deserve the TEEU rate, pension etc.
The problem is (in my opinion) this rate is not financially viable in most cases (not all). For example, when you think about it there is only so much that a contractor can charge for domestic work.

When I was an electrical contractor like many other contractors I made the decision very early on that I could not afford to employ an electrician, so I only had apprentices.

Irish electrical contractors are trying to compete electrical contractors from northern Ireland now too. You can be sure that their electricians do not get the same rate. I am sure you have seen the vans on the road.

average industrial wage: 36,000

20euro p/h * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/yr = 40,000

throw in the fact you wouldn't be working consistantly, it may drop a bit. So it's probably about right.

The rate is €2 per hour higher than that. You have to add in country money/travel money (this can be an extra €160 extra per week), pension entitlements, not to mention overtime at time and a half and double time.
Again, like I said I think electricians deserve this it just isn't affordable anymore.

At the moment we have a massive oversupply of electricians

2011

mattjack wrote: »

I,m well aware that contractors often use subbies who pay thier own employees a differant rate

Yes, this is true. In many cases the only way an electrician can get work is to go the subbie route. I fear that pretty soon the only employed electricians will be subbies. Then every electrician will be on whatever rate he can negotiate. Contractors can hire and fire with impunity and not have to worry about giving notice or paying into a pension. A real race to the bottom! The only upside to this is that the low quality cowboy waster electricians (a minority, but there are plenty of these) will get minimum wage!

Contractors will argue that they are forced into this position, and many may think that there is some merit in that argument.

.G.

beanie10 wrote: »

Its not an excuse and if you really believe that why dont you go out and set up your own business pay your tax, prsi, pension, insurance, suppliers, wages etc., look for a contract and you will get some awakening as to the real state of affairs in this country.
Average of 5 electrical contractors price each job and you would be surprised at the value of the winning contract. Guarantee you with your attitude you wont get within an ass`s roar of it.

My own boss gets 28 quid an hour on one of his contracts so I'm fully aware of the state of play,which is why I'm not my own boss nor will I be anytime soon.Nobody forced you or him into becoming a contractor did they,you knew the score when you and the thousands of other contractors joined the bandwagon during the boom and now have got caught with your pants down in a radically reduced market fighting against all the others who did it too.Such is life,if you don't like it find a new career.Its become a them and us exercise,you and all the other contractors against us the sparks.You can't get rid of your excessive number of competitors so you join together to attack your workforce in time honoured fashion.I'm am very good at my job,I take pride in my work,I've excelled in every exam I undertook and I would not accept such a drop at the end of it.I'd rather work in McDonalds.Such an approach will guarantee that the only people you will get working for that money is exactly the type of sparks that those in the NECI and yourself complain about having to pay top wack to,ie the rubbish ones.A resonable drop is to be expected and should be embraced by all involved, not a 50% drop however

beanie10 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong the rate shouild be €22 per hour but in recession the private sector gets hit first and hardest.The banks has no money therefore the people have no money, we have too many electricians in this country(thats FAS fault). If you are a qualified electrician and are offered €12.50 per hour grab it with both hands, you wont get an offer like it again.
The government has alot to answer for too in relation to public tenders as no matter what the cheapest gets it, and we end up with situation like Pierse Construction where no subcontractors get paid but dont worry the subcontractors staff get there wages.

During the boom companies couldnt get enough cheap labour via registering new apprentices,not FAS's fault at all,what were they supposed to do refuse employers they staff they wanted?

However I agree it has left us with an oversupply of sparks,however the same can be said for contractors,over 4000 in a small country like this! Fine during the boom,not so now.

Its a typical one sided argument from employers that you bring,cut wages then we'll be fine blah,blah,blah.Fact is,sad for those involved as it would be,if a few thousand contractors go to the wall it will help those still surviving,harsh,but reality.For our side like I said above we must be willing to accept "reasonable,sustainable" cuts to our wages,but since the price of nothing else is dropping,a 50% odd cut to our wages is ridiculous

EDIT:just reading the other replies since I typed this and I feel the oversupply of electricians is overstated.We have too many electricians AND too many companies fighting for massively reduced amounts of work.We need to shed plenty of both.

2011

superg wrote: »

My own boss gets 28 quid an hour on one of his contracts

That sounds about right. As you can imagine there is not much profit from that once the proper rate is paid (+travel etc.) as well as all of the associated costs (van, insurance etc...). What also has to be factored in is all of the jobs where the contractor simply can't get paid by the customer! Contractors can also spend a lot of time pricing jobs that they never get and time is money! Worse still is when a job is under priced...

Such is life,if you don't like it find a new career.

This is what many electricians and contractors are doing.

I'm am very good at my job,I take pride in my work,I've excelled in every exam I undertook and I would not accept such a drop at the end of it.

I agree with you 100%. The wage drop described by the OP is simply not acceptable. However the wages sought are not affordable. There has to be a balance.

Such an approach will guarantee that the only people you will get working for that money is exactly the type of sparks that those in the NECI and yourself complain about having to pay top wack to,ie the rubbish ones.

True

A resonably drop is to be expected and should be embraced by all involved, not a 50% drop however

Exactly, because if a contractor is charging €28 per hour for an electrician he will not make any money by paying the full rate as it is now.
The key phrase is "reasnoble drop in pay".

However I agree it has left us with an oversupply of sparks,however the same can be said for contractors,over 4000 in a small country like this! Fine during the boom,not so now.

+1 there is a massive over supply. 4000 sounds like a lot but many of the contractors are one man bands.

beanie10

superg wrote: »

My own boss gets 28 quid an hour on one of his contracts so I'm fully aware of the state of play,which is why I'm not my own boss nor will I be anytime soon.Nobody forced you or him into becoming a contractor did they,you knew the score when you and the thousands of other contractors joined the bandwagon during the boom and now have got caught with your pants down in a radically reduced market fighting against all the others who did it too.Such is life,if you don't like it find a new career.Its become a them and us exercise,you and all the other contractors against us the sparks.You can't get rid of your excessive number of competitors so you join together to attack your workforce in time honoured fashion.I'm am very good at my job,I take pride in my work,I've excelled in every exam I undertook and I would not accept such a drop at the end of it.I'd rather work in McDonalds.Such an approach will guarantee that the only people you will get working for that money is exactly the type of sparks that those in the NECI and yourself complain about having to pay top wack to,ie the rubbish ones.A resonable drop is to be expected and should be embraced by all involved, not a 50% drop however



During the boom companies couldnt get enough cheap labour via registering new apprentices,not FAS's fault at all,what were they supposed to do refuse employers they staff they wanted?

However I agree it has left us with an oversupply of sparks,however the same can be said for contractors,over 4000 in a small country like this! Fine during the boom,not so now.

Its a typical one sided argument from employers that you bring,cut wages then we'll be fine blah,blah,blah.Fact is,sad for those involved as it would be,if a few thousand contractors go to the wall it will help those still surviving,harsh,but reality.For our side like I said above we must be willing to accept "reasonable,sustainable" cuts to our wages,but since the price of nothing else is dropping,a 50% odd cut to our wages is ridiculous

EDIT:just reading the other replies since I typed this and I feel the oversupply of electricians is overstated.We have too many electricians AND too many companies fighting for massively reduced amounts of work.We need to shed plenty of both.

Who said i became a contractor during the boom time?Bit of an assumption there, I havent been caught with my pants down either. By the esounds or it you have been caught with your pants down cause for €28 an hour you couldnt be getting union rate unless your boss is paying you out of his own pocket.
50 % is a big drop but its a sign of the times, when things were good everyone was happy but the money and work isnt there anymore.You cant squeeze blood from a stone

beanie10

One of your bosses contracts is for €28 an hour wich is a 50% reduction and business running costs are going up, yet you reckon its not worth it if your wages is cut 50%.

mattjack

beanie,2011 ..appreciate all your comments

2011

mattjack wrote: »

beanie,2011 ..appreciate all your comments

Thanks

.G.

beanie10 wrote: »

Who said i became a contractor during the boom time?Bit of an assumption there, I havent been caught with my pants down either. By the esounds or it you have been caught with your pants down cause for €28 an hour you couldnt be getting union rate unless your boss is paying you out of his own pocket.
50 % is a big drop but its a sign of the times, when things were good everyone was happy but the money and work isnt there anymore.You cant squeeze blood from a stone

Regardless of when you went into business the REA existed and its terms were clear,you can't cry foul now just cos its face no longer fits.I've acknowledged the need for reasonable change to it but thats not the whole argument as I have already pointed out.Thanks for doing the usual and focussing on the money an employee is earning rather than the other valid points in my argument.Its not all about what we earn,far from it.Its all our fault you're struggling don't you know.NECI and their mates should be celebrating each time one of their competitors goes to the wall,instead they whine like banshee's and spout that the only way to save the world is to slash and burn on wages,One eyed view IMO but I expect nothing less from contractor's

Wile E. Coyote

mattjack wrote: »

what do you think is a fair rate..?

How much work would you get done in an hour that would justify me paying you €20+ for it?

mattjack

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

How much work would you get done in an hour that would justify me paying you €20+ for it?

be more specific ? give me an example of what particular work ? routine maintenance,verify and testing...mechanical containment etc...? cabling armour or pvc...?

Wile E. Coyote

Well what's the most basic every day call an electrician would get? Say something like a loose conection or fault wiring in a light switch. Not saying you shouldn't get paid €20+ just want to see how you justify it.

Wheelie King

Bill Electrical Aprentice wrote: »

a company i use to work for in ireland a fairly large electrical company, i heard last week are only paying qualified electrican's 12,50 an hour no lodge no travel is this possible ?? there based in the south thats all im saying i could be wrong but thats what i heard.

Good work if you can get it. I'm on minimum wage and wish to god i was on that sort of money.

.G.

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

How much work would you get done in an hour that would justify me paying you €20+ for it?

On the flip side,how much profit per hour would you be happy with making on the hourly charge for your electrician and how much would you have the charge the customer to get it?

I'd be interested in any contractors views on this

If you could provide a breakdown of what it costs you to provide a sparks for an hour I'd very interested.It seems to me it would cost you his wages,pension contribution,prsi and your companies insurance bill for that hour but that is then offset as a business expense which reduces its cost.

this is how the negotiations on a reasonable rate would take place I'm sure,you show what it costs,we say how much we would like and then a deal is thrashed out

You can disregard travel pay and the like cos its a fallacy that companies pay it,they didnt in the boom and they certainly don't now.Disregard the cost of gear as thats always charged extra,plus a premium on top for supplying it. We can disregard transport and tools costs too,Every job I've ever seen since I've been in this trade and certainly more recently clearly states "Own transport + tools essential"

Bruthal

Electrical work is a mugs game especially in recent years, nothing more. It can be very skilled, and im sure plenty of sparks believe they are great at it, but its still a mugs game, probably made worse by the boom years. Like i said earlier, if a supermarket shelf stacking job and an electrical job had the same rate, who would want to do the electrical? I wouldnt anyway. Also a local supermarket job at €10 an hour would be better than an electrical one at €12.50 an hour with 20 miles driving to it.

.G.

Me neither.

beanie10

superg wrote: »

Regardless of when you went into business the REA existed and its terms were clear,you can't cry foul now just cos its face no longer fits.I've acknowledged the need for reasonable change to it but thats not the whole argument as I have already pointed out.Thanks for doing the usual and focussing on the money an employee is earning rather than the other valid points in my argument.Its not all about what we earn,far from it.Its all our fault you're struggling don't you know.NECI and their mates should be celebrating each time one of their competitors goes to the wall,instead they whine like banshee's and spout that the only way to save the world is to slash and burn on wages,One eyed view IMO but I expect nothing less from contractor's

whos blaming the employees? Nobody in this thread has blamed employees. If you read my posts I clearly lay the blame on the recession and too many electricians and not enough work. You are looking for a contractor/employee based argument where one doesnt exist.
My point is in this recession where business is down 50% €30 an hour has to cover alot of costs inc rising insurance and fuel. In boom times electricians wages were 40% of contractors hourly charge(€22.00 per hour employee €55 per hour contractor). If the same reasoning is used today where the contractor is getting €30 an hour, the employee gets €12 an hour. An employee is doing well to get that as costs are higher today compared to 5 years ago. Running cost are not "business expenses" that mean nothing, it has to be covered in the €30 an hour.
If you are not happy with one eyed contractors go get a job in a supermarket, you probably find a way to give out about the bosses there.

Doom

Well if the rate is that low all the good electricans will leave the trade, and watch the quality drop and house fires increase

Bruthal

beanie10 wrote: »

If you are not happy with one eyed contractors go get a job in a supermarket, you probably find a way to give out about the bosses there.

Im not disagreeing with your comments, but a €10 an hour job in the local supermarket would be better than a €12 an hour site 20 miles away. An electrical job might be seen as above a supermarket checkout personel job, but once the wages are on a par, its no better.

As for giving out about bosses, is there anyone that doesnt?

mattjack

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Well what's the most basic every day call an electrician would get? Say something like a loose conection or fault wiring in a light switch. Not saying you shouldn't get paid €20+ just want to see how you justify it.

nevermind justifying the rate....if an electrician finds your loose connection or so called " faulty wiring "...in an hour , 20 euros is very inexpensive for something so dangerous...you tell us what its worth ?

Bobeagleburger

Anyone that complains about 12.50 per hour atm has their head in the sand.

The economy is likely to slide alot more and umemployment is only at the tip of the iceberg.

2011

superg wrote: »

On the flip side,how much profit per hour would you be happy with making on the hourly charge for your electrician and how much would you have the charge the customer to get it?

I'd be interested in any contractors views on this

I am no longer a contractor, but I would expect to have to get in the region of €32 per hour to break even.

If you could provide a breakdown of what it costs you to provide a sparks for an hour I'd very interested.It seems to me it would cost you his wages,pension contribution,prsi and your companies insurance bill for that hour but that is then offset as a business expense which reduces its cost.

You can do a break down yourself. All of the cost you listed above are valid as well as whatever you allowed for the following:

1) Accountant + bookkeeper (cost me about €1,800 a year).
2) All costs associated with keeping a van on the road (tax, insurance, servicing etc.)
3) Whatever you allow for the customers that refuse to pay part or all of the bill.
4) Company mobile phone(s).
5) Advertising costs.
6) Whatever is allowed for lost time due to pricing jobs you don't get, hanging around due to being let down by materials not arriving, job held up etc....
7) Power tools and test equipment replaced, serviced, stolen etc...
8) Office stuff, stationary, ETCI certs, test records, Bank charges, computer, broadband, landline, postage
9) Holiday pay.
10) RECI / ECSSA membership
11) Safepass course (I had to pay for this for myself and employees)
11) All PPE and safety statement
12) Legal costs.
13) Company set up costs.
14) Call backs to customers due to "teething problems" such as failure of materials/equipment. There is never any payment for this, but to have any hope of return buisness this has to be done.
15) Corperation tax.
16) Lost/stolen/broken materials
17) Mistakes made by electricians / employer / apprentices. It happens!


As you point out many costs can be offset as a buisness expense, but the money has to be earned (within the hourly rates) and lodged into the company account first. Not always as easy as it sounds.

this is how the negotiations on a reasonable rate would take place I'm sure,you show what it costs,we say how much we would like and then a deal is thrashed out

Exactly, sounds fair to me.

You can disregard travel pay and the like cos its a fallacy that companies pay it,they didnt in the boom and they certainly don't now.

The TEEU would not agree with you on this. I got it as an electrician before and during the boom (mostly country money). This is all part of the deal that the TEEU are insisting on so it has to be allowed for. If you are going to ignore it what else are you prepared to ignore???

Disregard the cost of gear as thats always charged extra,plus a premium on top for supplying it.

The problem here is that the price of materials has gone up significantly. However the customer expects to pay less for all materials as he/she believes that there is a recession on now so every price is up for negotiation.
You would not believe the increase in costs of cable over the last 10 years. Copper prices have gone nuts, yet the price of installing a socket/shower is experiencing sownward pressure.

We can disregard transport and tools costs too,Every job I've ever seen since I've been in this trade and certainly more recently clearly states "Own transport + tools essential"

Sorry no can do. The TEEU will not allow electricians to bring their own power tools on to site. I saw an electrician get into trouble over this with the union shop steward. If you are self employed this does not apply, but neither does the rate!

2011

rarnes1 wrote: »

Anyone that complains about 12.50 per hour atm has their head in the sand.

Sorry, I don't agree. That is only slightly above minimum wage and it is skilled work that carries quite a lot of responsibility by its nature.

The economy is likely to slide alot more and umemployment is only at the tip of the iceberg.

True, but there is a limit. If I were to work for €12.50 per hour I would choose to do something easier!

Ihaveanopinion

2011 wrote: »

Sorry, I don't agree. That is only slightly above minimum wage and it is skilled work that carries quite a lot of responsibility by its nature.


True, but there is a limit. If I were to work for €12.50 per hour I would choose to do something easier!

Not to be pedantic - but minimum wage is €7.65 per hour. €12.50 is over 50% greater than minimum wage - not 'slightly' above it

2011

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

Not to be pedantic - but minimum wage is €7.65 per hour. €12.50 is over 50% greater than minimum wage - not 'slightly' above it

OK, fair point. But I think the new government has said it is reinstating the previous of €8.65 ??

I have to agree with many of the electricians here and say that €12.50 is simply not an option. No electrician of any quality will work for that.

Japer

I know a polish electrician who works for 8 euro an hour. Why would anyone pay 50% more ? The economy is ******. A lot of skilled self employed people would be glad to get 10 or 12 an hour, never mind 12.50.

2011

Japer wrote: »

I know a polish electrician who works for 8 euro an hour.

€8 per hour for an electrician is exploitation.

Why would anyone pay 50% more ? The economy is ******.

Because perhaps you want quality work that is certified that won't result in damage to property, death / serious injury......

A lot of skilled self employed people would be glad to get 10 or 12 an hour, never mind 12.50

I doubt it.

mattjack

Japer wrote: »

I know a polish electrician who works for 8 euro an hour. Why would anyone pay 50% more ? The economy is ******. A lot of skilled self employed people would be glad to get 10 or 12 an hour, never mind 12.50.

8 euros an hour........ terrible...

.G.

2011 wrote: »

I am no longer a contractor, but I would expect to have to get in the region of €32 per hour to break even.



You can do a break down yourself. All of the cost you listed above are valid as well as whatever you allowed for the following:

1) Accountant + bookkeeper (cost me about €1,800 a year).
2) All costs associated with keeping a van on the road (tax, insurance, servicing etc.)
3) Whatever you allow for the customers that refuse to pay part or all of the bill.
4) Company mobile phone(s).
5) Advertising costs.
6) Whatever is allowed for lost time due to pricing jobs you don't get, hanging around due to being let down by materials not arriving, job held up etc....
7) Power tools and test equipment replaced, serviced, stolen etc...
8) Office stuff, stationary, ETCI certs, test records, Bank charges, computer, broadband, landline, postage
9) Holiday pay.
10) RECI / ECSSA membership
11) Safepass course (I had to pay for this for myself and employees)
11) All PPE and safety statement
12) Legal costs.
13) Company set up costs.
14) Call backs to customers due to "teething problems" such as failure of materials/equipment. There is never any payment for this, but to have any hope of return buisness this has to be done.
15) Corperation tax.
16) Lost/stolen/broken materials
17) Mistakes made by electricians / employer / apprentices. It happens!


As you point out many costs can be offset as a buisness expense, but the money has to be earned (within the hourly rates) and lodged into the company account first. Not always as easy as it sounds.


Exactly, sounds fair to me.



The TEEU would not agree with you on this. I got it as an electrician before and during the boom (mostly country money). This is all part of the deal that the TEEU are insisting on so it has to be allowed for. If you are going to ignore it what else are you prepared to ignore???



The problem here is that the price of materials has gone up significantly. However the customer expects to pay less for all materials as he/she believes that there is a recession on now so every price is up for negotiation.
You would not believe the increase in costs of cable over the last 10 years. Copper prices have gone nuts, yet the price of installing a socket/shower is experiencing sownward pressure.



Sorry no can do. The TEEU will not allow electricians to bring their own power tools on to site. I saw an electrician get into trouble over this with the union shop steward. If you are self employed this does not apply, but neither does the rate!

Thanks for the breakdown.Interesting reading and the kind of information that is needed if we are to have a proper rate of pay determined.

As for travel pay,I'm sure it is allowed for in pricing but its hardly ever passed on.Every single contractor I've worked for didnt pay it and still don't.Only the big companies paid it from what I've learned from talking to other lads throughout my apprenticeship.It was never a problem for me anyway as long as I got my correct hourly rate.I'm not greedy:D.

Power tools yes do tend to be supplied but again these days people have their own and use them.This is another area thats needs addressing in whatever new REA can be agreed.

€32 euro an hour is not a lot just to breakeven,for profit You want how much more? Even at that rate its is difficult price to achieve right now but as I've said before,thats as much down to oversupply of contractors as it is oversupply sparks.lots are going abroad or looking at other careers while contractors are going to the wall,sad as it is, if that trend continues we will eventually get to a stage where supply no longer massively outstripes demand then we will see the true worth of our services.if the construction industry can agree that their rates must drop by 7.5% then they must believe that is a sustainable rate,ours should be similar.

As it is now I'm looking at leaving myself for a few years till things settle down as I agree with the other tradesmen on here,I would never work in this game for the rates being discussed on here.I'm sure plenty of lads who spent 4 years doing tray or pulling cables would happily work for it,and its those lads the contractors don't want.Pay peanuts.....:p