How much will PS pay be cut by ?

Flashgordon197

Sleepy wrote: »

Personally, I'd see the mess as having being created by a lack of regulation, incompetent (or corrupt) governance, the Irish hysteria for property ownership, faulty remuneration systems in the higer echelons of the private sector (I'd link all director level salaries to 10 year share options forcing long-term rather than short-term strategies) and the socialisation of private losses.

My point is less that there's a lot of useless public sector staff, more that the unions prevent those that are useless from being removed and the hiring policies being woeful (and hugely nepotistic in many areas).

Well, I know from talking to private sector friends that many have used this downturn to clear out useless staff. Useless staff that have been employed for years. Dont get me wrong the turnover of useless staff would be higher in the private sector but the way its presented here you would think all private sector businesses are utilitarian paradises. Again I dont buy this myth of the efficient private sector. Its not that easy to fire people as any employer should know.
As to incompetence-selling property that is grossly over priced without checking your " valuations" against well documented history is pure and utter incompetence. As for the nepotism allegation-thats pure bull. Too often on this site anecdotes becomes generalisations and I would include my own in that criticism.

Flashgordon197

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

What do you think the corporation tax should be raised to?

I dont have a particular figure in mind but we seem to have endless threads on public sector salaries and practically none on corporation tax. The Independent newspaper group keeps churning out article after article on the public sector because our conditions are there for all to review while many private sector corrupt practices remain under radar and only come out when something moves into state ownership-the banks/bonuses

The Independent is a corporation-its within its interests that no debate occurs and Tony O'Reilly must be laughing to review threads like this. Laughing.

ShowMeTheCash

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

I dont have a particular figure in mind but we seem to have endless threads on public sector salaries and practically none on corporation tax. The Independent newspaper group keeps churning out article after article on the public sector because our conditions are there for all to review while many private sector corrupt practices remain under radar and only come out when something moves into state ownership-the banks/bonuses

The Independent is a corporation-its within its interests that no debate occurs and Tony O'Reilly must be laughing to review threads like this. Laughing.

Well the danger of increasing corporation tax is a lot of the multi-nationals might up and leave. If it was increased to say the same as the UK I think it would officially kill any chance of economic growth as we would see a mass exodus of large corporations. Microsoft and Intel I think both indicated that if corporation tax was to be increased they would go.

OK with the exception of the banks what corrupt practises do you refer to?
Not forgetting that the Banks are suppose to be regulated by the financial regulator.

Sleepy

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

Well, I know from talking to private sector friends that many have used this downturn to clear out useless staff. Useless staff that have been employed for years. Dont get me wrong the turnover of useless staff would be higher in the private sector but the way its presented here you would think all private sector businesses are utilitarian paradises. Again I dont buy this myth of the efficient private sector. Its not that easy to fire people as any employer should know.

No, not easy to get rid of them, but you're not forced to give them pay raises every year, you can demote them, move them to an area of the organisation where they can cause least damage or to the less attractive jobs that might persuade them to look elsewhere. The Public Sector Unions and political environment make this virtually impossible in their sector.

As to incompetence-selling property that is grossly over priced without checking your " valuations" against well documented history is pure and utter incompetence.

I'd agree with this.

As for the nepotism allegation-thats pure bull. Too often on this site anecdotes becomes generalisations and I would include my own in that criticism.

I've seen it far too many times to regard the generalisation as being without foundation tbh.

eigrod

Sleepy wrote: »

I've seen it far too many times to regard the generalisation as being without foundation tbh.

Have you some examples of nepotism in public service appointments ? (I'm not talking about TD & Minister secretaries here). I'd be interested to know.

Flashgordon197

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Well the danger of increasing corporation tax is a lot of the multi-nationals might up and leave. If it was increased to say the same as the UK I think it would officially kill any chance of economic growth as we would see a mass exodus of large corporations. Microsoft and Intel I think both indicated that if corporation tax was to be increased they would go.

OK with the exception of the banks what corrupt practises do you refer to?
Not forgetting that the Banks are suppose to be regulated by the financial regulator.

If you follow your logic -then why are not all multi nationals based here because our rate has to be close to the bottom. Dont get me wrong-its obviously attractive but it has a price-the price being we pay more tax to allow the Independent newsgroup pay an effective tax rate below 10% We need a real debate -one they hardly want to see but they as stated must be delighted at the ground hog day repeat of threads attacking the public sector and little against their interests.

As for the regulator-he is not solely to blame for the banks. The banks themselves were allowed by law to lend recklessly without security. The failure to pass such laws against reckless lending-lending that results in the stare pissing twenty billion into Anglo shows that the elite write the laws. Corruption. Amazing how many anti public sector threads but hoiw many on the pissing of twenty billion on Anglo?? AIB?? BOI?
If that's not corruption-the failure to have laws in place to make sure when bank crashes happen-we all suffer(chief executives developers auctioneers) -if that not corruption I Dont know what is. Bank directors and all are laughing at you and these threads.

Sleepy

eigrod wrote: »

Have you some examples of nepotism in public service appointments ? (I'm not talking about TD & Minister secretaries here). I'd be interested to know.

I have friends and acquantinces who've gotten jobs in particular schools, councils, publicly owned transport companies etc. because family members "put in a word for them".

In fairness, it's hardly uncommon in the Private Sector, particularly in the legal profession but I think most (all?) of us would agree that public appointments *should* be made on the basis of the best candidate.

eigrod

Sleepy wrote: »

I have friends and acquantinces who've gotten jobs in particular schools, councils, publicly owned transport companies etc. because family members "put in a word for them".

In fairness, it's hardly uncommon in the Private Sector, particularly in the legal profession but I think most (all?) of us would agree that public appointments *should* be made on the basis of the best candidate.

Fair enough. I would be reasonably confident that Public posts that are filled through advertising in the national media and on publicjobs are merit based. However, where human beings are judging other human beings for appointment, you will never have a perfect system - be it private or public. Unfortunately, nobody's come up with a better system yet.

sarumite

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

Amazing how many anti public sector threads but hoiw many on the pissing of twenty billion on Anglo?? AIB?? BOI?

I think most people agree about the shocking state of irish banks so there is little discussion only people agreeing with the OP. Such threads die pretty soon as there is very little to discuss. However the same cannot be said for discussion on the Public sector where the opinion is divided thus those threads remain active as there is a lot of discussion.I would suggest that its not amazing at all and is actually quite unremarkable.

maryk123

totally agree sarumite, people think slashing PS wages by ridiculous amounts are going to solve this problem. What people forget is if this happens how are the PS workers going to live and pay their mortgages like everyone else.

ShowMeTheCash

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

If you follow your logic -then why are not all multi nationals based here because our rate has to be close to the bottom. Dont get me wrong-its obviously attractive but it has a price-the price being we pay more tax to allow the Independent newsgroup pay an effective tax rate below 10% We need a real debate -one they hardly want to see but they as stated must be delighted at the ground hog day repeat of threads attacking the public sector and little against their interests.

As for the regulator-he is not solely to blame for the banks. The banks themselves were allowed by law to lend recklessly without security. The failure to pass such laws against reckless lending-lending that results in the stare pissing twenty billion into Anglo shows that the elite write the laws. Corruption. Amazing how many anti public sector threads but hoiw many on the pissing of twenty billion on Anglo?? AIB?? BOI?
If that's not corruption-the failure to have laws in place to make sure when bank crashes happen-we all suffer(chief executives developers auctioneers) -if that not corruption I Dont know what is. Bank directors and all are laughing at you and these threads.

Look I understand that banks have gotten away with murder here, during the boom any regulation was met with "you are getting in the way of progress" but this is where we needed strong leadership in Government... We did not have it. Our politicians sold us down the river... You think I want to point the finger at the PS, I can accept that the banks who basically where in bed with the politicians and developers caused the hype around the property boom, but Government and regulators basically bought into the same bullsh1t as everyone else there was pockets to be lined and money to be made short term.

As for corporation tax... I remember listening to the radio and I forget who it was now but they where talking about Intel and the reason they came to Ireland. Intel employs over 5000 and it Intel's biggest site outside the USA... (I used to work there)

He basically listed 10 reasons back in the early 90s to why US giants like Intel Microsoft would come to Ireland - High standard of education, politically stable, English speaking, low corporation tax, lower labour costs among a few others.

We went on to say now in 2011 the only reason left among the original list is low corporation tax.

Our labour costs have ballooned, education had a two fold impact 1. People doing less of what he called engineering type degrees and 2. The rest of the world India / China have simply gotten better over the last 20 years now surpassing us. Country now is in a state...

Here is a link where US tech firms warn about the corporation tax

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/11/22/ireland_bail_tech/

We could test this bluff... But large corporation are ruthless, they think they can do it cheaper somewhere else they will go!

Sleepy

eigrod wrote: »

Fair enough. I would be reasonably confident that Public posts that are filled through advertising in the national media and on publicjobs are merit based.

Don't be so sure they're open to all applicants though... I've personally been told "well, we'll have to put it up on publicjobs.ie but that's just a formality" about a job I was offered. Granted, I'd be fully qualified for the role, and think I would have done a good job at it, but it should still have been open to competition.

Gambl

Sleepy wrote: »

Personally, I'd see the mess as having being created by a lack of regulation, incompetent (or corrupt) governance, the Irish hysteria for property ownership, faulty remuneration systems in the higer echelons of the private sector (I'd link all director level salaries to 10 year share options forcing long-term rather than short-term strategies) and the socialisation of private losses.

Those factors may have created bubble-friendly conditions but it was the addition of artificially and inappropriately low interest rates that created a monumental bubble. The bursting of that bubble led to some extremely difficult economic challenges that have so far been responded to by politicians in a manner that redefines ineptitude. Public and private sector salaries and employment levels will have to be decimated as a result, simply because of the reduced amount of capital available in both sectors to pay the wages - people might try and dress this in political terms or present it as a conscious decision to reform this or that service or business but while the impulses that lie behind the decision making process might sadly be driven by human nature (e.g. politicians playing to the gallery of jealousy about perceived benefit levels in various public sector jobs) the fact of the matter is that thse decisions and these cuts have to be made anyway because of the reduction in available funding in both public and private sectors. Public and private cash flows have shrunk massively - the discussion in each case probably ought to start from how to allocate these shrunken pieces of pie rather than about entitlements or about setting the public sector up against private sector, tempting as that may be to do.....

ShowMeTheCash

Gambl wrote: »

Those factors may have created bubble-friendly conditions but it was the addition of artificially and inappropriately low interest rates that created a monumental bubble. The bursting of that bubble led to some extremely difficult economic challenges that have so far been responded to by politicians in a manner that redefines ineptitude. Public and private sector salaries and employment levels will have to be decimated as a result, simply because of the reduced amount of capital available in both sectors to pay the wages - people might try and dress this in political terms or present it as a conscious decision to reform this or that service or business but while the impulses that lie behind the decision making process might sadly be driven by human nature (e.g. politicians playing to the gallery of jealousy about perceived benefit levels in various public sector jobs) the fact of the matter is that thse decisions and these cuts have to be made anyway because of the reduction in available funding in both public and private sectors. Public and private cash flows have shrunk massively - the discussion in each case probably ought to start from how to allocate these shrunken pieces of pie rather than about entitlements or about setting the public sector up against private sector, tempting as that may be to do.....

I am in agreement that politicians may try and play down the currently climate and the public and private sector are undoubtably going to see more cuts / closures etc...

However things get complicated when we try and as you say to allocate the shrunken pieces of pie.

The pubic and private sector are two very different animals.

The private sector for the most part (excluding banks) tend to adjust a whole lot faster. Companies close, have massive lay-off's cut costs to survive. Not too many business can hemorrhage for too long.
But the private sector in some areas also need to be competitive in a global sense or even with the UK being NI is just up the road.

I think we will see the private sector adjusting to be more compensative with the UK.

Gambl

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I am in agreement that politicians may try and play down the currently climate and the public and private sector are undoubtably going to see more cuts / closures etc...

However things get complicated when we try and as you say to allocate the shrunken pieces of pie.

The pubic and private sector are two very different animals.

The private sector for the most part (excluding banks) tend to adjust a whole lot faster. Companies close, have massive lay-off's cut costs to survive. Not too many business can hemorrhage for too long.
But the private sector in some areas also need to be competitive in a global sense or even with the UK being NI is just up the road.

I think we will see the private sector adjusting to be more compensative with the UK.

To some extent but the United Kingdom of Austerity and Budget Cuts is not likely to recover for a very long time - as a market it will shrink and its own domestic input costs will have to be cut. So Ireland's and everyone else's competitiveness needs to be much sharper and much more flexible - it has to sell globally at competitive rates - that's the rub
The cuts will come quicker in the private sector but public is tied to that by an invisible rope...

Godge

Sleepy wrote: »

I have friends and acquantinces who've gotten jobs in particular schools, councils, publicly owned transport companies etc. because family members "put in a word for them".

In fairness, it's hardly uncommon in the Private Sector, particularly in the legal profession but I think most (all?) of us would agree that public appointments *should* be made on the basis of the best candidate.

I find this hard to believe.

For a start, nepotism is endemic in the private sector. The vast majority of the private sector consists of small businesses. Whether it is a small shop that needs some part-time staff, a larger retail store that needs some summer relief, a small solicitor/accountant/doctor/dentist's practice that needs a secretary, a tradesman who needs extra help, these posts are invariably filled by someone in the know, most often a family member, friend or someone close to one of those.

In the public sector, any post filled through the Public Appointments Service is above reproach. Obviously, those in the public service will spot ads, hear about competitions and tell their friends/relations to apply, but that is a long way from being a corrupt process. There is still a process of exams and interviews to go through which cannot be fixed. Just knowing about a job is therefore of little help.

You may have a point about posts filled outside of the PAS, e.g. a post in a small rural school. In those cases, there may well be nepotism, but that reflects the way small business and society operates in Ireland as I show above and is not a particular reflection of the public service.

I doubt that you or anyone else could produce any hard evidence of a post through the PAS being filled by nepotism or favouritism.

maryk123

google"nepotism hse" and see the results - this happened last year