USA shooting ranges with blanks?

unreggd

Howayas!

Saw somethin like this on TV YEARS back, but it was like a SFX place for films, where you can go in and use mega machine guns and all, with blanks

Would be interested in that as opposed to a standard shootin range
(Ok, Ill prob do both..... :P )

Anyone got any idea if anything like this still exists?

Cheers!

silja

Is it important to you that they are blanks? Because all the places I know use normal ammunition. But yes, such places exist- many shooting ranges have guns you can "try before you buy" including big ones. A friend went to this place a couple of years ago, they have assault rifles and sub machine guns: http://www.laxrange.com/rentals.htm

Look up gun ranges where you will be visiting, and they should be able to help- each will have their own policies and types of guns available. You will likely need to be over 21.

InTheTrees

Blanks? You dont want to waste time with blanks.

You'd probably find out more on the firearms forum but as far as I know its nevada or florida where you can hire a fully auto machine gun. In the other states you would have to join a club.

http://www.thegunstorelasvegas.com/gunrental.html

http://www.lasvegasgunrange.net/RangeRentals.aspx

http://www.acesindoorshooting.com/Range_Rentals.html

InTheTrees

silja wrote: »

You will likely need to be over 21.

My dear, its the land of the free and the home of the heavily armed (and I dont think the NRA would tolerate age restrictions.)

I've taken family friends with kids as young as eight to the gun range and there wasnt any restrictions.

Sparks

Moved out of Target Shooting and into Shooting.
This comes up a fair bit from time to time in here - the fast answer is that you can't do this with pistols or rifles in Ireland because of the laws surrounding licencing, but you can do it with shotguns and several places cater to that with clay pigeon shooting, including Courtlough, Hilltop, and several dozen others.

InTheTrees

Oops. Except this topic started in the USA Travel forum but its moving so fast I cant keep track!

bigred

InTheTrees wrote: »

Blanks? You dont want to waste time with blanks.

You'd probably find out more on the firearms forum but as far as I know its nevada or florida where you can hire a fully auto machine gun. In the other states you would have to join a club.

Pennsylvania has some Title III dealers with ranges. You can try an MP5 or M-4 if you pockets are deep enough for all the ammo you'll go through. All I needed was my Irish passport and a wad of cash!

InTheTrees

bigred wrote: »

All I needed was my Irish passport and a wad of cash!

It goes really really fast. I was amused by this from the las vegas place:

M249 SAW w/40 Rds

I wonder what fraction of a second it takes to burn up those 40 rounds?

firefly08

Anyone travelling to the US who wants to do this kind of thing, you should be aware of that if you do not have permanent US residency, you will be what the US State Dept. calls a "non immigrant alien". US Federal Law prohibits non immigrant aliens from possessing firearms and/or ammunition unless said aliens meet certain exemptions.

You can read the detailed version here at the ATF's website but the short version is: legally you must meet one of the exemptions listed on that page, and by far the easiest is to have a valid hunting license issued from a US state. The easiest way to do that is to buy Alaska's small game license from their website (costs about $20). It's valid for a year. Many states charge an arm and a leg for licenses especially if you're not a resident of that state, but Alaska is very cheap. It doesn't matter what state you're going to be shooting in...this is just to satisfy the requirement of Federal law that you meet one of the exemptions listed above - otherwise you may not possess firearms or ammunition!. You could try getting in under item #2 in the above list but you will probably need documentary proof.

Don't bother asking dealers and shooting range operators for advice about this, they will not know anything about it. This is between you and the US Government, and it's 100% your responsibility to get it right! I have never heard of anyone being caught out for it but trust me you don't want to become the test case for the sake of $20.

Manic Moran

Unconvinced. You have to look at the definition of 'posession.' If the range never cedes control of the weapon to the tourist, does the tourist posess it?

You don't have to look too far to see an identical wording. It is illegal in the US to posess a machinegun unless you have an appropriate permit from the ATF. Even if you're American. If you want to use the definition of "Posess" as "have it in your hands under the supervision of the owner", then every single person, American or otherwise, who goes to the range such as in Las Vegas to rent out a machinegun without the (relatively convoluted ATF process) permit is in violation of that law. The entire business model would be illegal.

NTM

Sparks

Manic Moran wrote: »

You have to look at the definition of 'posession.' If the range never cedes control of the weapon to the tourist, does the tourist posess it?

Don't know about the US, and it's a fairly different judicial system there, but over here the answer is a very solid yes and it's such a basic definition I'd be puzzled as to how the US courts could differ from it that substantially. You have it in your hand => you possess it. Unless the US courts list "possession" as being the same thing as "ownership" and then how do they describe the act of being caught while holding stolen goods in your hands?

InTheTrees

I'd say a full 60% of the people standing in line at the las vegas place when I was there were brits. And there were other europeans too.

I cant imagine why the nevada atf would decide to close or curtail that business.

firefly08

Fair point Manic. On the other hand, consider the situation of a convicted felon. They are prohibited under the very same section of the law (USC Title 18 section 922). I am pretty sure that it would be considered possession in their case. The reason that I think that is that such people can be charged with possession just by being in a vehicle or house where there is a firearm that they might be able to get hold of. The only thing is, I don't know if that works under Federal law or if the cases I have heard of were state law issues. But Sparks is right, if the Federal courts regard "possession" as requiring anything more than having the gun in your hand, then they are quite unique, even in America.

EDIT: Just came across this. Sounds like the guy was convicted in a state court - but then a lot of states have laws that mirror the Federal law regarding firearms, so it's may still be applicable.

And this

Summary:

Prosecutors say a felon or other person legally barred from having a gun is breaking the law by handling one and could be charged. But they need proof.

"They can go and play with a gun, handle it, fire it, even take pictures with it to intimidate other people and nobody is going to know about it," said Joseph J. Vince Jr., a retired supervisor from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

I know neither of these are concrete but it certainly looks risky to me.

firefly08

OK this settles it

Q: I’m a nonimmigrant alien who is coming to the United States for two weeks to go hunting. Can I rent a firearm in the United States to use on this trip? What if I want to go to a shooting range one day — can I rent a firearm there as well?
As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful. The hunting license does not have to be from the State where you will be possessing the guns and ammunition.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5) and (9), 922(g)(5)(B) and 922(y)]

I rest my case yer honour

Grizzly 45

IOW Uncle Sam is gypping another 25 dollars out of the tourist trade with buying a FLA ,AZ or wherever liscense so you are ligit in going down to a range to fire a title/class3 firearm.:D
Like whats 25/50 dollars on a trip to the USA,and if you are going to shoot a FA thats all of a clip of ammo anyway:D:D

Sparks

firefly08 wrote: »

But Sparks is right

Whoa there, stall the digger. I'm not right, I'm genuinely puzzled. Any correctness on my part here is purely random and unintentional in nature!

Manic Moran

firefly08 wrote: »

OK this settles it

I rest my case yer honour

Not so fast, my good man. What if it's not just a range, but a shop which has a range?

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-377950.html

An FFL can rent or loan a firearm to "any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" unless disqualified under paragraph (1) or (2). A non-FFL does not get the benefit of this exception and also is not bound by the quoted section either.

Plus, the the exemption is on people "admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;"

It doesn't say that the sporting purpose need be firearms related. "I'm in the US for an elephant spotting trip, thought I'd check out the range while i was here." It doesn't say that you need a hunting license, it says "or is in posession of a hunting license"

Here is the actual text of the legislation, by the way.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922, go to (y) (2).

Finally, and here's the big bit for Irish purposes and where whoever wrote the ATF web page really screwed up in its generalisation, Irish people aren't described as having: "been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)))"; given that they fall under http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc_sec_08_00001187----000-.html Title 8 Sec 1187: The visa waiver program. Waived visa requirement, so you didn't enter under a non-immigrant visa, so the prohibition doesn't apply.

NTM

Stercus Accidit

I rented two pistols at a gun range in Minnesota without any trouble, all I needed was ID. I remained on the range at all times, and returned the firearms after my session was over. The state laws may dictate that you cant use a pistol as I found out in NYC, but the gun range knows its local laws best, and tourists are a regular sight at these ranges.
A specifically designed blank firer doesn't even constitute a firearm in the US, I could buy one and shoot it at home. Don't waste your time with it, the skill and enjoyment comes from the shooting, the target and the skill required. A blank firer makes a noise and that's it, why not just clap some pans together and be done with it in that case.
If you decide not to be silly and have a good time, rent a real gun and buy some real ammo and read up on shooting techniques, even a quick scan of some tips makes it a more enjoyable experience and I was a natural straight away. I can't recommend it enough, get a friend too and have a little competition, great fun.

firefly08

An FFL can rent or loan a firearm to "any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" unless disqualified under paragraph (1) or (2). A non-FFL does not get the benefit of this exception and also is not bound by the quoted section either.

As far as I can tell, the poster put then text in themselves. It's not in http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922. You'll find no shortage of forum threads dealing with this issue with people giving their opinion on whether or not it's legal, but I would not take their word for it. Under that system, a felon would not be prohibited from renting or borrowing a gun - but I know that is not the case.

It doesn't say that the sporting purpose need be firearms related. "I'm in the US for an elephant spotting trip, thought I'd check out the range while i was here." It doesn't say that you need a hunting license, it says "or is in posession of a hunting license"

That is true - but then your reason for being admitted into the country will be recorded at immigration. If you turn up looking to get in on the visa waiver program and give "sporting purposes" as your reason, you may be asked to provide proof. It's a good point though, this approach may be a viable alternative.

The visa waiver program. Waived visa requirement, so you didn't enter under a non-immigrant visa, so the prohibition doesn't apply.

That's interesting...I was under the impression that it included the VWP. But you may be right there. It seems you would in fact be a "non immigrant visitor" (since that is a condition of being elligible for the VWP):

in the case of an alien who meets the following requirements:
(1) Seeking entry as tourist for 90 days or less
The alien is applying for admission during the program as a nonimmigrant visitor (described in section 1101 (a)(15)(B) of this title) for a period not exceeding 90 days.

but technically you were not admitted under a visa at all...

All the same, my point is I wouldn't want to be the test case.

The state laws may dictate that you cant use a pistol as I found out in NYC, but the gun range knows its local laws best, and tourists are a regular sight at these ranges

They may know the local laws best but you should still be careful because they might not be breaking the law, but you might.

Manic Moran

firefly08 wrote: »

Under that system, a felon would not be prohibited from renting or borrowing a gun - but I know that is not the case.

There he points out that the FFL 'exemption' doesn't apply in the cases of people covered under paragraphs 1 and 2 of the section, criminals and fugitives from justice. The text, unfortunately, is kindof convoluted and difficult to read. However, if he is correct, then that provides the leeway for businesses like The Gun Store to conduct their operatinos as they currently do legally.

That is true - but then your reason for being admitted into the country will be recorded at immigration. If you turn up looking to get in on the visa waiver program and give "sporting purposes" as your reason, you may be asked to provide proof. It's a good point though, this approach may be a viable alternative.

Just say "Holiday." Sport, by definition, means 'fun' which is the sort of thing you do on holiday. (Actually, from dictionary.com: "diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime." As long as you don't say you're over for a business trip, you're fine.

All the same, my point is I wouldn't want to be the test case.

Over-concern, I think. It may be the State laws you want to be more concerned with.

NTM

FISMA

Stercus,
You were spot on when it comes to state vs federal law. However, you had better watch out when saying

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

A specifically designed blank firer doesn't even constitute a firearm in the US, I could buy one and shoot it at home.

I am willing to bet that is not true in at least one of the following: NY, NJ, CA, MA, Chicago, or DC.
http://www.airgundepot.com/blank-gun-safety-restrictions.html

In some states, there is no difference in buying a BB rifle or a full bore 30-06 hunting rifle. Also, if you wanted a BB handgun, it would be the same as a Glock in 40S&W.

Some of the anti states/places are bad. There are restrictions on slingshots as well.

I had a friend who wanted to buy a flare gun and was told that he had to obtain a special permit.

Also, keep in mind that there are places that replicas cannot go. In some states anything that looks like a gun is considered a gun when it is taken onto properties such as a school - even a water pistol. Zero tolerance.

It is actually worse than that in the People's Republic of New Joisey. In that "state" children have been suspended from school for drawing a stick figure gun and playing cops and robbers - with their fingers!

Hard to believe?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21397455/ns/us_news-education/

firefly08

There he points out that the FFL 'exemption' doesn't apply in the cases of people covered under paragraphs 1 and 2 of the section, criminals and fugitives from justice

Paragraphs 1 and 2 deal with minors and people prohibited by State law respectively - no mention of people already covered by a blanket Federal prohibition.

Just say "Holiday." Sport, by definition, means 'fun' which is the sort of thing you do on holiday. (Actually, from dictionary.com: "diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime." As long as you don't say you're over for a business trip, you're fine.

Fair enough...maybe I'm being over cautious.

InTheTrees

The thing is the culture is totally and completely different.

I cant see anyone really caring. A 22 rifle is considered a kids gun, you dont need any license at all to buy an AK47, there's gun ranges all over the place.

I cant imagine any gun range owner being so officious that they'd turn away tourists.

And another thing the relationship between the ATF and gun dealers is not a particularly friendly one, they'd probably scoff at the regulation if they even knew about it.

FISMA

InTheTrees wrote: »

A 22 rifle is considered a kids gun, you dont need any license at all to buy an AK47, there's gun ranges all over the place.
I cant imagine any gun range owner being so officious that they'd turn away tourists.

InTheTrees,
Are you referring to a specific state? This comment is not true in general across the states.

In fact, as mentioned above, there are states where you will have to wait for months to obtain a license to purchase an AK74 BB gun.

Additionally,

InTheTrees wrote: »

I cant imagine any gun range owner being so officious that they'd turn away tourists.

Try going to NY, NJ, CA, MA, Chicago, and the like. In some cases the law is written and states that in order to possess a firearm, you must have a license. Some places take possess to mean more than ownership, but to even hold in your hand. I have been to stores that asked me for licenses even when all I wanted to do is hold the firearm and feel how it fit in my hands.

When it comes to turning people away, it has happened to me several times. Would you risk your business for one sale?

Again, it depends on what area of the country you are talking about. If one of the anti areas, you must understand that the liberals are out in force to shut down ranges and stores by whatever means necessary.

Sparks

FISMA wrote: »

Are you referring to a specific state? This comment is not true in general across the states.

It is kindof funny the way the US is usually painted as being incredibly relaxed with regard to gun laws, but with one or two exceptions, most places in the states have more restrictive firearms laws than some places in Europe (Finland and Switzerland jump to mind immediately).

FISMA

Sparks wrote: »

It is kindof funny the way the US is usually painted as being incredibly relaxed with regard to gun laws, but with one or two exceptions, most places in the states have more restrictive firearms laws than some places in Europe (Finland and Switzerland jump to mind immediately).

Agreed.

Ireland is more liberal than the states when it comes to getting a moderator, aka silencer in the states.

In the states, mods are accessible to those that have a Class 3 license, which take into account other items such as "machine guns" - fully automatic.

I doubt the states I have mentioned before would ever allow an individual to own a mod.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the plethora of sites that allow you to buy guns online. True, I can bid on and pay for them, but that does not mean they will send it to you or that you are allowed to possess it at all.

The next step is receiving the gun, which is another story altogether.

Manic Moran

Try going to NY, NJ, CA, MA, Chicago, and the like. In some cases the law is written and states that in order to possess a firearm, you must have a license

Without speaking for the other States, here in CA no license of any sort is requied to own a rifle. (Though I will use my driver's license for the proof of residency requirement, other forms of proof like utility bills are acceptable).

NTM

firefly08

Query sent to the ATF. It'll probably take a while, but I will post the answer here when it comes.

Manic Moran

Out of curiousity, how did you phrase the question?

NTM

firefly08

I didn't want to put it like "so I have this...friend, right..."

...so I wrote this, even though I do have a visa:

Could you clarify this point for me please: I sometimes travel to the US from Ireland on the Visa Waiver Program. When I do that, I am not admitted into the country on a non immigrant visa, - there is no visa at all required. Does this mean that I am not prohibited from possession of firearms and ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(b) - since that specifically refers to people "admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa". I would in fact be a legal nonimmigrant, but would not have been admitted under any type of visa.

My understanding of this is that I would therefore be able to visit a shooting range, as a tourist, and rent firearms for use at that range without having to meet any of the exemptions listed in your FAQ http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html#nonimmigrant-possession

I'd appreciate it if you could confirm this.

They have an email address specifically for firearms related queries : ipb@atf.gov so that's where I sent it.

Manic Moran

That was a rather well phrased question.

NTM