Nice to see money well spent

PARKHEAD67

Any opinions on this article from the Champion? What a sad state of affairs:(
http://http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5980:traveller-housing-costs-unsustainable&catid=74:general&Itemid=60

Traveller housing costs 'unsustainable' Written by Dan Danaher THE average cost of maintaining Traveller accommodation group scheme units in Clare is seven times higher than the unit cost of standard local authority accommodation, it emerged this week.
For the current year, Clare County Council has budgeted €910,288 providing maintenance of its standard 1,550 local authority housing units across the county, compared to over €492,019 looking after just 65 Traveller accommodation units.
In 2009, the county council spent €565,000 on maintenance and management of Traveller accommodation sites and this figure increased to €628,000 in 2010.
Additional expenditure on refurbishment resulting from vandalism in 2010 at Beechpark, Ballymaley and Ballymurtagh amounted to €90,000.
Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee chairman, Councillor Brian Meaney warned the current cost of maintaining Traveller group housing is “unsustainable” and has to be drastically reduced.
Even though Traveller accommodation funding can be recouped from the Department of the Environment, Councillor Meaney stressed it is wrong to expect the taxpayer to continually pay for this bill.
“We have to ask the question, do we need to educate people how to live in houses?” he said.
Councillor Meaney recalled that Traveller housing provided in Lees Road, Ennis in the ’70s was vandalised once before a refurbishment programme, only to have dwellings substantially damaged again.
However, when the houses were made available to the general public, Councillor Meaney claimed there were no major problems and residents now live in a thriving community.
Following consultation with the Local Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee (LTACC), the Housing Directorate submitted an integrated package of pilot initiatives to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Govenrment (DoEHLG) for funding.
It is proposed to install closed-circuit television (CCTV) cameras in three Traveller sites – Beechpark and Ashline in Ennis and Ballymurtagh in Shannon.
The main aim of this project is to promote and develop capacity building, community development and responsible and sustainable tenancies and neighbourhood relationships, including resourcing the positive accommodation actions contained in the adopted Clare Traveller Plan 2010-2013.
It also wants “to counter the illegal and adverse activity in Traveller estates”, which detract from quality of life and sustainability and to resource the enforcement actions contained in the plan.
Pending an assessment of the civil works on each site and completion of a tender process, which will be initiated in the coming weeks, it is estimated the CCTV cameras will cost in the region of €100,000. They should be in place by the end of June.
The new measures also include a tenancy management officer, community development resource and additional maintenance resource.
In the 2010 LTACC annual report, the committee expressed concern about the “inordinate cost of maintenance of newly constructed Traveller accommodation and the unsustainability of this expenditure”.
“The large-scale breaches of tenancy agreements and the levels of anti-social behaviour and poor quality of life that were being experienced also received much attention at the committee.
“The Traveller Accommodation Programme commitment to quality in the accommodation was not working as envisaged and it was felt that, in particular, group schemes were not working at various levels including cost,” the report outlined.
Councillor Joe Arkins said Traveller group housing is not working and suggested efforts should continue to try and accommodate Travellers in the private rental market. He suggested the entire programme should be reviewed to establish if the council is getting value for money.
Committee member Colette Bradley acknowledged there are problems on Traveller accommodation sites, which in some instances are being caused by feuding.
However, Ms Bradley pointed out some Travellers living in housing and halting sites are not engaging in any anti-social behaviour and their accommodation provision is working well. She stressed the actions of a minority of Travellers tarnish the reputation of those who are primarily law-abiding citizens.
She welcomed the provision of CCTV in three Traveller accommodation sites “as some residents lacked a sense of security in their own dwellings” and hopes it will “act as a deterrent against the threat of violence, which left some Travellers living in fear”.
She added the whole Traveller accommodation issue is very complex and it isn’t easy to come up with solutions that suit all interested parties.
Traveller representative, Heather Rosen claimed the high cost of maintaining Traveller accommodation is linked to the feeling of isolation and segregation felt by Travellers living in complexes surrounded by high concrete walls and barriers, which militate against easy access for emergency services and where tenants don’t have the keys to remove them in emergency cases.
Ms Rosen alleged that when some Traveller families vacate unsuitable group housing accommodation, they are taken off the social housing list and are forced to leave the county as they are no longer entitled to rent allowance. She said the inordinate cost of Traveller accommodation also needs to be examined as a matter of urgency.

CptSternn

That means the local authority spends about €587.28 per family in council houses per year versus €7965.52 per family living in halting sites in Clare. Thats 13.5 X more per family.

It is amazing that 65 families get more than half of what 1,550 families get in a year to pay for their accommodations.

Clareman

It would depend how many families are in each "Traveller accommodation units" (also known as halting sites)

Clareboy

Anyone, Travellers or settled, who vandalise or abuse housing that has been provided for them by the local authorities should not be rehoused anywhere else in the state. I am sure that it is the same story in every other county. That would cut all this nonsense and save the state millions.

CptSternn

Clareman wrote: »

It would depend how many families are in each "Traveller accommodation units" (also known as halting sites)

Am I missing something here? Each unit houses one family. A unit would not be a full halting site.

Why would they break down housing units into families in a home and then designate a whole halting site as a single unit?

Halting sites have multiple little houses (dunno the proper name for them) there. I am pretty sure each dwelling is a separate unit.

Clareman

I thought that a unit was a halting site, same as a unit is a house, but I might be wrong, as with a lot of journalism in Ireland it is left vague enough for people to jump to conclusions (on either side)

Shapey Fiend

At the very least there should be some sort of 3 strikes rule where you get banned for a few years. Just some sort of system to stop people blatantly taking the p*ss.

Stuxnet

nice 2010/11 kitted out Transits parked out the front also !

we're the bigger fools for putting up with it !

angelfire9

I live 3 doors down from a family from the traveller community
Its like living in a halting site
Rubbish all over the place
Kids running riot (including wandering in my front door when ever I forget to lock it)
Nappies thrown in the middle of the road
2 Nasty nippy little dogs that chase anything on 2 or 4 legs in the neighbourhood
7 kids (2 are babies the rest are brats)
3 vehicles outside the door an 07 People Carrier, a 2011 Passat and an 02 Pickup

And they live off social welfare! :mad:

User Friendly

angelfire9 wrote: »

I live 3 doors down from a family from the traveller community
Its like living in a halting site
Rubbish all over the place
Kids running riot (including wandering in my front door when ever I forget to lock it)
Nappies thrown in the middle of the road
2 Nasty nippy little dogs that chase anything on 2 or 4 legs in the neighbourhood
7 kids (2 are babies the rest are brats)
3 vehicles outside the door an 07 People Carrier, a 2011 Passat and an 02 Pickup

And they live off social welfare! :mad:

for ****s sake:(

How do you know they are on social welfare?

what business is of yours what Reg vehicle they drive? whats your point?

funny enough,i have a dog that chases cats in my neighborhood,its what dogs do!!

7 kids...... so ****in what,i have 7 siblings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whats your point????



its the ****ing councils job to keep the streets clean.

Clareman

If you have a problem with a users post, use the Report Post function.

Guy:Incognito

User Friendly wrote: »

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS anglefire!!

What goes on in your community is very much your business. Especially when it affects you. If they keep to themselves thats fine, but any sort of negative interaction at all then makes it very much your business.

As for the rest of it, do taxpayers not deserve a say in how their money is spent?

angelfire9

User Friendly wrote: »

for ****s sake:(
How do you know they are on social welfare?

Mmmm cos they don't work maybe? :rolleyes:

User Friendly wrote: »

what business is of yours what Reg vehicle they drive? whats your point?

How does a family living on welfare afford a 2011 Passat?
That is my point

User Friendly wrote: »

funny enough,i have a dog that chases cats in my neighborhood,its what dogs do!!

Their dogs are on the street 24/7
They have bitten me (luckily I was wearing leather boots and therefore they broke no skin
The dogs run riot and are not under control which is ILLEGAL
The dog warden will not deal with them as he has was assaulted by another traveller family in Ennis recently and therefore will not even visit the area
I assume that you as a reasonable person keeps your dogs under control
My neighbours next door have a dog that chases our cat which I have no problem with cos he only does it within the confines of his own garden
Dogs do not belong on the roads unrestrained!

User Friendly wrote: »

for ****s sake:(
7 kids...... so ****in what,i have 7 siblings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whats your point????

The kids are all brats (bar the 2 babies)
They harass the other kids in the neighbourhood (including my 9 year old with name calling (oink oink is particularly annoying for a cop's kid), the cycle their bikes on the road like they own the place, they have dented my car which is parked in my own driveway with their shennanigans
They put red paint on my next door neighbour's front door
The 3 (approx) year old regularly strips off and drops her nappy in the middle of the road
When getting out of the car they will try and get into it to see what you have, when bringing in shopping they will try and pull it off you, if your front door is open or unlocked they waltz right in
This would be bad enough for 1 child but multiplied by 5 its a nightmare
Driving into our cul de sac is a nightmare cos they deliberately run out in front of the car! :mad:

User Friendly wrote: »

for ****s sake:(
its the ****ing councils job to keep the streets clean.

If the rubbish is in their front yard it is NOT the council's problem (environmental health aside)
The estate is private (not taken over yet) so the council won't set foot in the estate anyway

Answer me honestly User Friendly would you want to live in what is essentially a siege situation
I cannot go outside my front door without being accosted for money or cigarettes
My daughter cannot play outside the front of our house without having her hair pulled or being called names

And it is all being paid for by the HSE as this particular family left one of the council halting sites due to "family differences" and ended up being re-housed beside me!

angelfire9

I would like to state categorically that I do not have any problem with travellers in general just this particular family
I have a friend who lives beside the nicest family you'd ever meet, they cut her lawns for her last summer when she broke her keg, the kids fetched messages for her from the shop and the lady of the house used to call over every day while she was on crutches to ask if she needed anything
They even hung out the laundry for her, and they were travellers too!

My neighbours are a nightmare
I'd feel the same if they were Lesbians or Librarians, if they were from New York or Nigeria if they were decent people I'd welcome them to the neighbourhood but they aren't and that's the bottom line!

It is people/ families like my neighbours who give all travellers a bad name

It's not a case of "give a dog a bad name...."
They are genuinely a bloody nightmare

They vanish for 6 weeks every summer and it is the only time of the year the kids in our cul de sac can play at the front if our houses!
Thats a fact and User Friendly if you don't believe me you should come and see for yourself (I believe you are Ennis based?)

maiden

Angelfire, I would honestly say I live in the same estate as you do except for the fact, the car types are different!

This problem is everywhere! And anyone who lives near this behaviour has an awful life because of people who dont give a s**t!

For the likes of 'user friendly', I bet he/she doesnt have neighbours like this, because they automatically assume you are 'traveller bashing'!!! I got from your posts not someone who is traveller bashing but someone who cares for their family and estate and is pi**ed off at the way both are being treated!

NO ONE should have to put up with this behaviour, I put up with it for years in a council area and then bought a house and am still putting up with it!!! Its a neverending nightmare!

I would like to point out that we had a campervan in our estate for a few weeks, the travellers then moved on and left bags of rubbish behind on a green area. Within in days the rubbish was all over the estate and when we rang the council, they said it wasnt their problem and we had to clean it up ourselves!

golfball37

No need to justify yourself or apologise AF, your story has been repeated all over the country sadly. Its a crying shame what certain scumbag families can get away with.

Bad parenting and bad attitude of anybody should be called to task and of course their means should be questioned without fear of being labelled a racist.

maiden

User Friendly wrote: »

its the ****ing councils job to keep the streets clean.

What kind of attitude is that? Yeah let whoever f**k their rubbish all over the place as its the councils job to pick it up!! Seriously????

Clareman

Folks,

I don't like the way this thread is going, I'm fine with people debating/discussing whatever they want (I particularly like the Librarians/Lesbians quote and will be using it again), but I will repeat (for the last time), if you have a problem with someone's post, use the report post function. Please get back in topic or I will lock the thread.

angelfire9

Clareman wrote: »

(I particularly like the Librarians/Lesbians quote and will be using it again),

:D:D

I do have moments of inspiration occassionally
That would be the 2nd time in 2 days that I have been complemented on my use of alliteration to make a point on boards


Thank you kind sir!

/bows

User Friendly

Clareman wrote: »

If you have a problem with a users post, use the Report Post function.

If i have a problem with someones post....i will certainly use the report button function clareman.

havin a different opinion,being passionate and standing up for minority groups,in this case Irish men,women and children doesnt need to be reported to a moderator.

I would love to respond and debate all the points youve made Anglefire,from the childs hair being pulled to the dogs roaming free but some of my previous post was deleted so there is little point if this editing of posts continues.

Clareman

Get off your high horse User Friendly and stop trying to act the martyr, I edited your post where you shouted at another poster while tell them to mind their own business, this would have led to an infraction in a lot of other forums on here, in fact another poster quoted the part I edited out of the post, I left that there.

angelfire9

User Friendly wrote: »

If i have a problem with someones post....i will certainly use the report button function clareman.

havin a different opinion,being passionate and standing up for minority groups,in this case Irish men,women and children doesnt need to be reported to a moderator.

I would love to respond and debate all the points youve made Anglefire,from the childs hair being pulled to the dogs roaming free but some of my previous post was deleted so there is little point if this editing of posts continues.

I do not discriminate against minorities, race, colour, creed, ethnic origin make no difference to me

There are two types of people as far as I'm concerned
Decent and scumbag
End of...

dr.fuzzenstein

angelfire9 wrote: »

There are two types of people as far as I'm concerned
Decent and scumbag
End of...

Now that's true. Doesn't matter where they come from, what color they are, if they are settled or not, that's what it breaks down to.

Testament1

User Friendly wrote: »

havin a different opinion,being passionate and standing up for minority groups,in this case Irish men,women and children doesnt need to be reported to a moderator.

I'm sick of that type of pandering sh*te. Fair enough you can stand up for a minority if they are being abused etc however if someone is acting like a scumbag and making life hell for others then they dont deserve any moral crusaders such as yourself sticking up for them.

Theres a difference between being a minority and being a c*nt. I have no problem with anyone, minority or not, if they are decent, honest people. If on the other hand they are absolute scumbags then f*ck them they dont deserve sympathy from anyone.

PARKHEAD67

Testament1 wrote: »

I'm sick of that type of pandering sh*te. Fair enough you can stand up for a minority if they are being abused etc however if someone is acting like a scumbag and making life hell for others then they dont deserve any moral crusaders such as yourself sticking up for them.

Theres a difference between being a minority and being a c*nt. I have no problem with anyone, minority or not, if they are decent, honest people. If on the other hand they are absolute scumbags then f*ck them they dont deserve sympathy from anyone.

I'll testify to that Mr. Testament.

PARKHEAD67

angelfire9 wrote: »

I live 3 doors down from a family from the traveller community
Its like living in a halting site
Rubbish all over the place
Kids running riot (including wandering in my front door when ever I forget to lock it)
Nappies thrown in the middle of the road
2 Nasty nippy little dogs that chase anything on 2 or 4 legs in the neighbourhood
7 kids (2 are babies the rest are brats)
3 vehicles outside the door an 07 People Carrier, a 2011 Passat and an 02 Pickup

And they live off social welfare! :mad:

We had nearly the same problems in the(private?) estate where I am.Nearly word for word whats happening to you. They were eventually evicted though. House is still vacant so we will wait and see who(or what) moves in. And further down the road we had Limerick drug dealers moved in to a house. They were evicted after a week however.their kids were out the back playing at 1am while the cops raided the house.Parents were cutting up drugs in the kitchen.:(. Thats where our PAYE goes. To fund these parasites.

Lady Chatterton

TV3's Midweek are covering this story at the moment. If you miss it, it should be available on the TV3 player.

angelfire9

MrsD007 wrote: »

TV3's Midweek are covering this story at the moment. If you miss it, it should be available on the TV3 player.

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=midweek&tv3_preview=0&video=35415

Lady Chatterton

angelfire9 wrote: »

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=midweek&tv3_preview=0&video=35415

Thanks Angelfire9 for posting the link.

The first 17 mins approx. is given over to discussing the cost of traveller accomodation, this includes a seven minute report from Ennis (Beechpark).

Dan Danaher and Jessica Quinn also have a further report in this week's Clare Champion.

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6123:traveller-committee-a-waste-of-time&catid=41:politics&Itemid=60


Traveller committee 'a waste of time'


THE chairman of a committee designed to address issues surrounding Traveller accommodation in Clare has described it as a “fantastic waste of time” because there are currently no Travellers involved.

Councillor Brian Meaney, chairman of the Local Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee claimed “plea after plea” has been made in a bid to get Travellers involved but to no avail. There are three places available on the committee for representatives of the Traveller community.
Councillor Meaney was speaking at a meeting of Ennis Town Council where he commented that Clare County Council has “bent over backwards” to try and facilitate Traveller engagement with the committee, which the local authority is legally obliged to establish.
Members of the Travelling community were contacted by The Clare Champion to enquire why they are not being represented on the committee.
Ennis Traveller John Mongan stated that he would be interested in joining the committee. Others at St Joseph’s Education Centre in Ennis, which works with Travellers, have also expressed an interest. Mr Mongan, whose family live in Knockanean, noted many Travellers are hesitant to be seen as speaking for the entire community. He added that the needs of Travellers in relation to accommodation are complex.
“Every Traveller has their own way of life and dealing with accommodation is not simple. Some want to live outside of town while others want to live in houses in estates. I am surprised that there is nobody involved with the committee, as many Travellers are involved with the council in different ways. I would definitely be interested in attending the next meeting of the group, I do think it’s very important that Travellers are involved,” he commented.
Brian Crossan, director of St Joseph’s Education Centre, said he believes one of the reasons Travellers have not got involved is that many are not comfortable with the terminology used at meetings. He added that the issue of Traveller accommodation is “complex, one size does not fit all.” He confirmed there has been some interest in joining the committee from members of the Travelling community in St Joseph’s.
At this week’s meeting of Ennis Town Council, Councillor Meaney said, “Clare County Council amended its rules to have representatives from each area on the committee. The committee has sat without Traveller representation despite plea after plea.”
According to the LTACC annual report for 2010, Ennis Community Development Project (CDP), in association with the Irish Traveller Movement, worked to secure Traveller nominees to the LTACC. At the time of the report, two Travellers were “interim members”. It was proposed by the CDP that increasing the number of Travellers to three might encourage participation and could provide geographical Traveller representation from Shannon, Ennis and Ennistymon. This was brought to Clare County Council as a recommendation and the council at its June 2010 meeting, agreed to increase the number of Travellers on the committee to three. However, no other Travellers approached the committee.
Councillor Meaney said there is now no member of the Travelling community involved, adding that unless there is Traveller engagement with the committee, he believes there is “no point in continuing with it, we are talking to ourselves”.
“We shouldn’t be wasting time with fanciful notions of providing places on a committee when they are not engaged. We could find other means of spending public funds.
“Clare County Council is meeting its legal obligations; the problem here is not with Clare County Council. We are engaging in a fantastic waste of time,” he said.
Councillor Frankie Neylon believed Travellers “are better looked after then a lot of local people in social housing”. He advised that the LTACC make decisions “for the betterment of everyone, not just one group”.
Councillor Paul O’Shea described the situation of having a Traveller committee without representation from that community as “fundamentally wrong”.
Councillor Michael Guilfoyle warned against “putting people into boxes”.
“There are a lot of good Travellers out there and a lot of bad. We can’t spend our time working on their behalf if they won’t engage,” he commented.
Meanwhile, Councillor Meaney has also expressed concern about the expenditure of €2,800 a week on the provision of 24-hour security at the Beechpark Halting Site, Ennis since it was extensively damaged in April 2010.
He hoped the introduction of CCTV cameras at the site on the Kilmaley Road would result in the suspension of security at this location.
He said constituents had asked him why the army or the armed response unit was not drafted in to try and curb the ongoing feuding involving some Travelling families in Ennis.
He said once again, people are questioning the huge disengagement between members of the Travelling community and the rest of society, which is resulting in a disproportionate spend on security for Traveller accommodation.
“A number of people have asked me why the army or the armed response unit haven’t been asked to provide security at halting sites. This is a very drastic step but it is something that the council may have to consider if new security measures, such as the introduction of closed-circuit television, don’t prove to be effective.
“I think the recent introduction of a mediator to try and curb the feuding between Traveller families was a positive measure to deal with this problem.
“I have been battling to try and get funding for communities for public lighting, footpaths and a host of different local projects. I appreciate resources are limited but it is hard to see community groups being refused grants or funding when the council is spending so much on security for Traveller accommodation.
“I am aware that vital culture and community projects can’t get the go-ahead due to lack of funds. Funding for Traveller accommodation can be recouped from the Department of Education.
“I would like to see a situation where funding for community projects could be recouped by the Department of Environment,” he said.
Clare County Council spent €565,000 on maintenance and management of Traveller accommodation sites in 2009 and this figure increased to €628,000 in 2010.
Additional expenditure on refurbishment resulting from vandalism at Beechpark, Ballymaley, Ennis and Ballymurtagh, Shannon, amounted to €90,000.
The Beechpark Halting Site was opened in July 2004 at a cost of approximately €2 million. Extensive damage to the site sparked outrage in the community in April 2010, with some residents calling for a total closure of the site.