From today I can call myself an atheist

Beruthiel

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Well seeing as the majority if people in Ireland are Christian they do believe so I suppose I am speaking for most people .

For a long time, the majority of people thought it perfectly ok to keep slaves.
That doesn't make it right or correct.

tfitzgerald

Beruthiel wrote: »

For a long time, the majority of people thought it perfectly ok to keep slaves.
That doesn't make it right or correct.

And because a few people do not believe in something does not make there opinion right either but on here you wouldn't think that and I have reread my post I can't see any inconsistencies

MagicMarker

tfitzgerald wrote: »

And because a few people do not believe in something does not make there opinion right either but on here you wouldn't think that and I have reread my post I can't see any inconsistencies

So answer the question posed to you. If you think people need something to believe in to get through tough times then how is it people who don't believe get through tough times?

seamus

My Dad is still kicking the religious football around in his head somewhat. As part of the older but pre-pension group he'd be one of the last generations to experience priests having absolute control and Catholicism being the be-all and end-all. He's atheist, but still has difficulty making the mental leap to admittance due to the length of time he spent under the Catholic whip.

He asked me the same question last week - "What do you turn to when times get tough?"

My answer was "Nothing. I just get on with it."

Through my earlier teens I spent a lot of time in superstition land. Early enough on I realised that praying to God never resulted in any favourable outcome. For a while I believed that if I really wanted something to happen, it wouldn't. So I made a mental effort to tell myself that I didn't really want something, and it would happen and I would be happy. Confirmation biase at it's best.
But then I grew up a little more and realised that all of the hoping and wishing in the world was incapable of altering the outcome. Que sera sera, I realised, and I could only influence things which I had a direct hand in.

Praying or "turning to" any superstition is just a convoluted form of wishing. If anything my mental well-being improved a lot (i.e. I lost a lot of the teeange angst) when I realised that there is no "grand plan" conspiring for or against me and all the bad and good things were the simple result of random chance. And there's no point in getting upset about random events.

tfitzgerald

MagicMarker wrote: »

So answer the question posed to you. If you think people need something to believe in to get through tough times then how is it people who don't believe get through tough times?

So some people go true life not needing anything or anyone. That's great for them . I never said you HAD to believe in something

wingnut32

Why not believe in family and your closest friends, they are the ones I turn to in times of need. Thing is I can see them, I can feel them, and as an added bonus they communicate back to me.

Very different from sitting there like an eejit praying to something I cant see, cant feel, and never talks back..why? Because it doesnt exist!

tfitzgerald

wingnut32 wrote: »

Why not believe in family and your closest friends, they are the ones I turn to in times of need. Thing is I can see them, I can feel them, and as an added bonus they communicate back to me.

Very different from sitting there like an eejit praying to something I cant see, cant feel, and never talks back..why? Because it doesnt exist!

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

Beruthiel

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Also the people here who believe in nothing

Nobody here said they believed in nothing. I believe in plenty.
I believe in myself, my family, my friends, the beauty of nature and the universe.

are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

You are in here in the Atheist forum trying to defend and convince us of the belief in a sky fairy.
Who's trying to convince who exactly...?

tfitzgerald

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

I would love some examples of the defensiveness

wingnut32

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

Convince? Your the one in the atheist forum...What did you expect to achieve by posting in here?

tfitzgerald

bluewolf wrote: »

I would love some examples of the defensiveness

Sky fairy ,idiots,superstitious beings, oh and I did not know that because it's an atheist forum I was not allowed post , I have enough of this attitude "agree with me or else". But look let's leave this on a good note I wish ye all the best and I will be sure to put in a good word with the sky fairy

robindch

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I did not know that because it's an atheist forum I was not allowed post

You're always welcome to post in A+A once you stick to the fairly relaxed forum rules.

That said, you shouldn't really expect everybody to have the same level of respect for religion as you seem to have yourself.

Galvasean

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

So, you come in to an atheism & agnosticism forum expressing a view that they by their very definition disagree with and you just expect them to nod in agreement and not question you when they disagree?
Imagine if I went into a Christian forum and was surprised when the Christians disagreed with my assertion that their God clearly does not exist. Are they allowed to disagree with me or should they just agree with me for fear of being labeled 'very defensive about there[sic] thoughts'?

Beruthiel

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Sky fairy ,idiots,superstitious beings, oh and I did not know that because it's an atheist forum I was not allowed post ,

Nobody said you were not allowed to post here. What we said was that you cannot come to this forum to try and convince us the sky fairy exists without getting an honest response.

I will be sure to put in a good word with the sky fairy

I don't need your good word, please refrain from putting any 'good words' in for me thanks.

Galvasean

Beruthiel wrote: »

I don't need your good word, please refrain from putting any 'good words' in for me thanks.

Have you ever noticed when a theist gets their ass royally handed to them in a discussion they usually claim they will put in a 'good word' with their man upstairs?
What's that all about?

The Mad Hatter

Galvasean wrote: »

Have you ever noticed when a theist gets their ass royally handed to them in a discussion they usually claim they will put in a 'good word' with their man upstairs?
What's that all about?

My dad's bigger than your dad?

Beruthiel

Galvasean wrote: »

What's that all about?

I don't know, but I find it extremely condescending.

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

Have you ever noticed when a theist gets their ass royally handed to them in a discussion they usually claim they will put in a 'good word' with their man upstairs?
What's that all about?

"I'm telling on you!!"

pH

Galvasean wrote: »

Have you ever noticed when a theist gets their ass royally handed to them in a discussion they usually claim they will put in a 'good word' with their man upstairs?
What's that all about?

It's a big part of Catholicism (and perhaps some Protestant faiths) that I've never fully understood the logic of.

At its heart there seem to be two contradictory beliefs in aspects God, one the belief that it's your works/beliefs/faith etc that gets you into heaven, and another about God answering people's prayers.

So what does happen if you pray (to God) for someone else's soul? Is it a bit like voting? even if uncle Charlie was a rotten person who did some bad stuff, if enough people plead with God can you get him to change his mind?

I'm more amazed about praying for dead people, as if there's some sort of afterlife American Idol vote, but it applies to living one's too.

Do people honestly believe in a God, that's ignoring Aunt Mabel's cancer, but based on request from you will intervene and cure it? Really, he's letting her die from cancer until someone asks him not to and then saves her? Do people really believe in that God or have they just never thought things through?

tfitzgerald

Beruthiel wrote: »

I don't know, but I find it extremely condescending.

You find it condesending do you I offered my opinion and only my opinion on this forum I never said I anything disparaging about anyone and I have being handed my ass royally disagree here and get insulted left right and center . Also I will say a prayer for everyone here and ye can even come round to my house where I intend to sing Kumbaya and toast marshmallows by the campfire so keep Saturday night free

Ash.J.Williams

I was under the impression that the whole evolution/creation argument was an american thing...and irish priests do not believe such nonsense???

tricky D

tfitzgerald wrote: »

You find it condesending do you I offered my opinion and only my opinion on this forum I never said I anything disparaging about anyone and I have being handed my ass royally disagree here and get insulted left right and center . Also I will say a prayer for everyone here and ye can even come round to my house where I intend to sing Kumbaya and toast marshmallows by the campfire so keep Saturday night free

You feel you need to say a prayer for us 'lost souls' and think that ethics and morality are derived from religion, but reckon you're not condescending and insulting. Hmmmm.

Galvasean

tricky D wrote: »

You feel you need to say a prayer for us 'lost souls' and think that ethics and morality are derived from religion, but reckon you're not condescending and insulting. Hmmmm.

Maybe we should write a letter to Richard Dawkins in the hope that the mega-pope may help him find reason?

liamw

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Also I will say a prayer for everyone here and ye can even come round to my house where I intend to sing Kumbaya and toast marshmallows by the campfire so keep Saturday night free

Please don't bother saying a prayer for me. I reckon your time would be better spent unwinding a ball of string and winding it back up again.

Zillah

tfitzgerald wrote: »

But look let's leave this on a good note

They're optimistic, these theists, I'll give them that.

swampgas

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts [...].

Actually, I find that religious people are very sensitive to the accusation that they are believing in superstitious nonsense, because it's a bit like being accused of still believing in Santa - the religious person understands just how silly their beliefs must appear to an atheist, and nobody likes being laughed at.

Sorry, but if you believe the unbelievable, don't get upset if some people choose to laugh a little at your crazy beliefs.

irishconvert

wingnut32 wrote: »

Well today is the day after about two years of hard thought and experience I can truly be comfortable with the fact that there is no god. Its strange really because its taken 36 years to get to this point which is probably to do with my sometimes intense fear of death.

I suspect like many posters here I was raised a catholic coming from a catholic family and like most in later years stopped going to mass a good few years ago and became a non practicing catholic. As the years passed I really didnt question my religion too much as it provided me with a comfort for my fear. That changed two years ago when I started to watch a program about the Universe.

I couldnt believe the sheer scope, size, distances, make up and evolution of life the whole thing. What really struck me was the age of the earth and then the age of the Universe itself. One of those nights after watching the program it struck me, what the hell was god doing for 15 billion years? Why does the church not address evolution?And then it started and snowballed. I suppose for the first few months I questioned everything in my mind without really talking about it to anyone.

Then I saw the god delusion which made me feel silly and a little angry at the same time for accepting the fairytale and being so ignorant for not questoning it sooner. Anyway the important thing is through the last two years of reasoning, reading and educating myself Ive accepted that death is a natural part of life and this life we have shouldnt be wasted, not one second of it, particularly on man made fairytales.

Well thats me, and today is the first day of the rest of my life and I dont have to thank god for that...:D

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of. It's a bit like only ever knowing Jazz music, not liking it and coming to the conclusion that all music is rubbish when you have never heard rock/pop/blues/etc. How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

CerebralCortex

irishconvert wrote: »

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of. It's a bit like only ever knowing Jazz music, not liking it and coming to the conclusion that all music is rubbish when you have never heard rock/pop/blues/etc. How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

I'm guessing you're a Muslim right?

liamw

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm guessing you're a Muslim right?

Hopefully a Christian jumps in now and argues with IrishConvert. We can put our feet up and enjoy the hypocrisy.

irishconvert

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm guessing you're a Muslim right?

Yes I am.

strobe

irishconvert wrote: »

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of. It's a bit like only ever knowing Jazz music, not liking it and coming to the conclusion that all music is rubbish when you have never heard rock/pop/blues/etc. How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

The same arguments against the truth claims that there is an interventionist god apply across the board IC. The varying religious hoopla is just window dressing. First you have to provide evidence of the interventionist god. Then we can focus on the veracity of specific descriptions of it.

Although I will give Islam one thing. It doesn't have to overcome the problem of evil the way Christianity does. At least you guys admit Allah is a bit of a prick.

userod

tfitzgerald wrote: »

You find it condesending do you I offered my opinion and only my opinion on this forum I never said I anything disparaging about anyone and I have being handed my ass royally disagree here and get insulted left right and center . Also I will say a prayer for everyone here and ye can even come round to my house where I intend to sing Kumbaya and toast marshmallows by the campfire so keep Saturday night free

That actually sounds like good craic...

AhSureTisGrand

irishconvert wrote: »

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of. It's a bit like only ever knowing Jazz music, not liking it and coming to the conclusion that all music is rubbish when you have never heard rock/pop/blues/etc. How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

I'd compare it to not liking jazz music because you don't enjoy listening to patterns in sound — it's a fundamental issue and applies by definition to all of music.

Beruthiel

irishconvert wrote: »

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of.

You do realise that deciding to not buy into believing in a god means any and all gods, not just one?
Considering how much worse (IMO) the Islamic religion is and the grief it is now causing in some parts of this world, how in Thor's name could Islam be more attractive?

How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

Fairy tales dressed up in different clothes doesn't stop them from being fairy tales.

tfitzgerald wrote:

You find it condesending do you I offered my opinion and only my opinion on this forum

I was not referring to your opinion, I was referring to the fact that you offering to pray for me is condescending.

Also I will say a prayer for everyone here

I don't want you to, do you not understand that?

irishconvert

Beruthiel wrote: »

You do realise that deciding to not buy into believing in a god means any and all gods, not just one?
Considering how much worse (IMO) the Islamic religion is and the grief it is now causing in some parts of this world, how in Thor's name could Islam be more attractive?



Fairy tales dressed up in different clothes doesn't stop them from being fairy tales.

My question is for the OP actually, thanks.

Beruthiel

irishconvert wrote: »

My question is for the OP actually, thanks.

Should I take from this comment that you have no answer to my questions?

irishconvert

Beruthiel wrote: »

Should I take from this comment that you have no answer to my questions?

You didn't really ask me any serious questions. In any case, I'm working and don't have time for a pointless debate where neither of us will change our opinions.

wingnut32

irishconvert wrote: »

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of. It's a bit like only ever knowing Jazz music, not liking it and coming to the conclusion that all music is rubbish when you have never heard rock/pop/blues/etc. How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

Although I dont have a great knowledge of all the other religions I know that they are mostly based around gods that created us and everything else.

I dont believe in this, I believe that life has been created from space dust and life has been evolving ever since then. There is no super being in the sky, there is only man with a truly brilliant imagination and a story to comfort him when he dies.

irishconvert

wingnut32 wrote: »

Although I dont have a great knowledge of all the other religions I know that they are mostly based around gods that created us and everything else.

I dont believe in this, I believe that life has been created from space dust and life has been evolving ever since then. There is no super being in the sky, there is only man with a truly brilliant imagination and a story to comfort him when he dies.

Thanks for your reply.

Ok, you dimiss the idea of a God that created everything, fair enough.

Do you dismiss the possibility that there is intelligent life on other planets? If there is other life, more intelligent and advanced than us, could we have been created by these "beings"? Perhaps we are a big experiment. Do you think that is a possibility, even a remote possibility?

virmilitaris

irishconvert wrote: »

Just curious, you are basing your disbelief in God on your knowledge of only one religion which you know of.

I think I can be fairly confident when I say that the majority of Atheists are not atheist because of any particular beliefs of any particular religion. That is to say that it's not the finer points, nor even the rougher beliefs of any religion which causes disbelief.

I don't believe in a supernatural magic sky daddy regardless of any other beliefs you wish to append to it.

I don't disbelieve Christianity because of Jesus' immorality, pedophile priests, the genocide and murder in the bible, human sacrifice, homophobia nor any other reason specific to Christianity.

I don't disbelieve Islam because Mohammad was a child rapist or that his 'visions' were quite possibly the result of epileptic fits. I don't disbelieve it because of the way it treats women or it's homophobia or any other particulars of Islam.

I don't believe Judaism because of circumcision, homophobia, silly hats, petty jealous deities etc etc.

I don't disbelieve any of them because it would entail worship of a petty jealous genocidal malevolent dictator. Or any other particulars of any religion.

I don't believe it because it falls at the first hurdle, there is no reason to believe it. There is no evidence for it. I don't believe it for the same reason I don't believe in fairies or leprechauns.

It's a bit like only ever knowing Jazz music, not liking it and coming to the conclusion that all music is rubbish when you have never heard rock/pop/blues/etc.

No it's not.

Not liking something and not believing something are very different things.

I don't believe in your god, nor do I like him. If you could prove his existence to me I still wouldn't like him but I would believe in him.

You're also not comparing like with like. Atheism is against theism which would be 'music' in your example, not a particular kind of music.

How can you be sure there is no God when you have not looked into other religions sufficiently?

Go on then. Please explain how Islam is different from Christianity ? How is it 'unique' ? If you can do that then you've got a point.

What makes Islam different from Christianity or Judaism ?

irishconvert

virmilitaris wrote: »

I think I can be fairly confident when I say that the majority of Atheists are not atheist because of any particular beliefs of any particular religion. That is to say that it's not the finer points, nor even the rougher beliefs of any religion which causes disbelief.

I don't believe in a supernatural magic sky daddy regardless of any other beliefs you wish to append to it.

I don't disbelieve Christianity because of Jesus' immorality, pedophile priests, the genocide and murder in the bible, human sacrifice, homophobia nor any other reason specific to Christianity.

I don't disbelieve Islam because Mohammad was a child rapist or that his 'visions' were quite possibly the result of epileptic fits. I don't disbelieve it because of the way it treats women or it's homophobia or any other particulars of Islam.

I don't believe Judaism because of circumcision, homophobia, silly hats, petty jealous deities etc etc.

I don't disbelieve any of them because it would entail worship of a petty jealous genocidal malevolent dictator. Or any other particulars of any religion.

I don't believe it because it falls at the first hurdle, there is no reason to believe it. There is no evidence for it. I don't believe it for the same reason I don't believe in fairies or leprechauns.



No it's not.

Not liking something and not believing something are very different things.

I don't believe in your god, nor do I like him. If you could prove his existence to me I still wouldn't like him but I would believe in him.

You're also not comparing like with like. Atheism is against theism which would be 'music' in your example, not a particular kind of music.



Go on then. Please explain how Islam is different from Christianity ? How is it 'unique' ? If you can do that then you've got a point.

What makes Islam different from Christianity or Judaism ?

As I said to Beruthiel, I'm not interested in a pointless debate where neither of us will change our opinions. I am just interested in the OP's reasons for his decision.

BTW, the level of smugness in here is choking me, terms such as sky daddy, fairy tales, etc. Actually I think it weakens your point when you have to resort to this. They are designed to make the religious perso feel or look stupid and not a constructive form of debate IMO.

wingnut32

irishconvert wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

Ok, you dimiss the idea of a God that created everything, fair enough.

Do you dismiss the possibility that there is intelligent life on other planets? If there is other life, more intelligent and advanced than us, could we have been created by these "beings"? Perhaps we are a big experiment. Do you think that is a possibility, even a remote possibility?

Considering how little we know of the wider universe there is always the possibility that earths situation could be replicated somewhere else based on science and what we know of earths creation. As for the rest, no.

Beruthiel

irishconvert wrote: »

BTW, the level of smugness in here is choking me, terms such as sky daddy, fairy tales, etc. Actually I think it weakens your point when you have to resort to this. They are designed to make the religious perso feel or look stupid and not a constructive form of debate IMO.

I view religion in the same way I view the tooth fairy. For me, the most accurate way to describe it is as a fairy tale.
If you find that smug or not very constructive, then it is because your belief system is being undermined and it bothers you.

virmilitaris

irishconvert wrote: »

As I said to Beruthiel, I'm not interested in a pointless debate where neither of us will change our opinions. I am just interested in the OP's reasons for his decision.

Well why don't you explain further what you meant by talking about looking at other religions.

BTW, the level of smugness in here is choking me, terms such as sky daddy, fairy tales, etc

And whys that ? You believe I should treat religious beliefs with respect ?

On a related note do you know what the Chinese characters for 'god' are ? (At least as in some versions) They literally translate as "Sky Father" so I think 'sky daddy' isn't too much of a stretch now is it ?

Actually I think it weakens your point when you have to use terms such as this. They are designed to make the religious perso feel or look stupid and not a constructive form of debate IMO.

I'll forego using them again in this thread if you answer my last post.

Boulevardier

I consider Deism to be the most reasonable position. The universe cannot have created itself. There must therefore be a higher, but not necessarily personal, being.

The organised religions ask people to beleive too many nonsensical things. Deism, on the other hand, is a product of reason and of reasonability. I commend it to others.

Here is a link:

www.deism.com

robindch

irishconvert wrote: »

terms such as sky daddy, fairy tales, etc [...] are designed to make the religious perso feel or look stupid [...]

No, they are describe the reality of religious belief to an atheist. Much as, I would imagine, belief in the Ancient Greek deities must look to you.

It's entirely up to the religious person reading the descriptions if he/she wishes to self-identify with the religious beliefs concerned to the extent that an insult of the one means an insult of the other.

Dades

irishconvert wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

Ok, you dimiss the idea of a God that created everything, fair enough.

Do you dismiss the possibility that there is intelligent life on other planets? If there is other life, more intelligent and advanced than us, could we have been created by these "beings"? Perhaps we are a big experiment. Do you think that is a possibility, even a remote possibility?

I think it's quite possible other life forms exist - possibly more intelligent than ourselves (I mean look at the way people treat each other - would that be difficult? )

Could we have been 'spawned' by some alien race? Sure - it's a possibility. Though I doubt that alien race would care if women never wore material to cover their heads or if we ate sea creatures on an arbitrarily chosen revolution of the planet.

Boulevardier wrote: »

I consider Deism to be the most reasonable position. The universe cannot have created itself. There must therefore be a higher, but not necessarily personal, being.

Why? Because you said so or because you can't get your head around the idea?

That kind of thinking sounds remarkably like "humans couldn't have evolved from pond scum".

liamw

irishconvert wrote: »

As I said to Beruthiel, I'm not interested in a pointless debate where neither of us will change our opinions. I am just interested in the OP's reasons for his decision.

Why only the OP? The majority of atheists here rejected the religion into which we were indoctrinated. Surely the opinions must interest you...

BTW, the level of smugness in here is choking me, terms such as sky daddy, fairy tales, etc. Actually I think it weakens your point when you have to resort to this. They are designed to make the religious perso feel or look stupid and not a constructive form of debate IMO.

Try giving us some good reasons to think your religion is not a fairytale, and perhaps we will come to respect your religious beliefs? You must have some!

dead one

Beruthiel wrote: »

it is because your belief system is being undermined and it bothers you.

so it means you have superior belief system. Would you kindly brief it? What makes your belief superior.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

Go on then. Please explain how Islam is different from Christianity ? How is it 'unique' ? If you can do that then you've got a point.

What makes Islam different from Christianity or Judaism ?

Please, First tell me what do you know about Islam?