From today I can call myself an atheist

oldrnwisr

irishh_bob wrote: »

sweeden has a high rate of suicide , im agnostic but personally i believe that a believer is less likely to commit suicide for the simple reason that believers were traditionally told that committing suicide would result in eternal damnation

First of all, Sweden doesn't have a particularly high suicide rate. It ranks 26th out of 103 nations as a measure of total suicides per capita. Ireland doesn't come far behind in 35th place and in fact has a higher rate of male suicides than Sweden.
Secondly, it would be better to understand the factors in determining suicide before using it as some guide to the benefit of religion. In fact most, if not all studies which examine indicators of societal health such as teen pregnancy, divorce etc. show a strong negative correlation with religion.

This meta-study in particular shows that religiosity leads to higher social distress and greater inefficiency in turning wealth into cultural and physical health.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Canis Lupus

doolox wrote: »

society would break down and people would go for each other and make life miserable for most people.

We should also highlight the old chestnut of how worrying a thought that religious people need a manual book on how to be decent people (edit) by your logic anyway.

Bloody Nipples

Congratulations you have now become enlightened :pac:

tfitzgerald

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get true the tough times in there lives

MagicMarker

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get true the tough times in there lives

You think wrong.

tfitzgerald

MagicMarker wrote: »

You think wrong.

Don't think so . But look whatever floats your boat

Zillah

tfitzgerald wrote: »

But look whatever floats your boat

"Whatever floats your boat" refers to subjective opinion, such as "I like chocolate" or "That movie was fun". Applying such logic to factual claims is one of the main reasons that people with ridiculous notions are able to make themselves feel less ridiculous.

People do not need religion to get through hard times, as all of the non-religious people who have made it through hard times demonstrate. This is not a matter of "what floats your boat", you are in error.

Zillah

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get through the tough times in their lives.

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I don't think so. But look, whatever floats your boat.

*sighs in relief*

tfitzgerald

Zillah I am not going to argue with you I will stick to my ridiculous beliefs and you stick to yours even if they are a bit bitter and go on now and have another sigh of relief

tricky D

doolox wrote: »

Pat Kenny had guy on who wrote a book called the Good Book about ethics, philosophy and values but trying to explain them without God and religion.

Ethics without religion - that's easy enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

Religion is only mentioned once, and even then as a speculative and more aptly, a wishful-thinking 7th stage. However, due to its dogma and other characteristics, religion has trouble getting past the 4th stage and nevermind other aspects of religion which are rooted in the initial, basic stages.

irishh_bob

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get true the tough times in there lives

i was a devout catholic for the 1st 21 years of my life , i grew up in a dysfunctional home with an uncaring father , a weak mother and a brother who was mentally handicapped , i asked god for help on a regular basis , i went abroad when i was 21 but it was a not a success due to the fact that i was the victim of extreme bullying in the workplace , this triggered depression which i have to this day , believing in something did absolutley nothing for me and while it might not be the most rationale way to decide one is no longer a believer , i see no reason to ask for help from someone - something which never ever delivers , oh and dont bother replying in the usual christian way by telling me that i wasnt looking in the right places for signs of gods help , if i order steak , i dont want bacon

Galvasean

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get true the tough times in there lives

I think people are better off believing in themselves than asking a deity that probably doesn't exist for help/

robindch

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get true the tough times in there lives

You're referring here to Plato's notion of the Noble Lie, a foundational idea or myth which is asserted true by the power-brokers within a society to help ensure harmony and conformity, regardless of whether the idea is actually true or not.

It's a terribly dishonest tactic to use, but it does have the benefit of being tried and tested.

tfitzgerald

I didn't tell anyone what to think . I gave my own opinion which I think is right I would never force my views on somebody else anyway irishh_Bob I hope things go ok for you from now on

MagicMarker

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I didn't tell anyone what to think . I gave my own opinion which I think is right I would never force my views on somebody else anyway irishh_Bob I hope things go ok for you from now on

So if you think that's true how do people who don't believe get by in life?

tfitzgerald

MagicMarker wrote: »

So if you think that's true how do people who don't believe get by in life?

Unlike other people I only speak for myself how would I know

MagicMarker

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Unlike other people I only speak for myself how would I know

O RLY?

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think people need to believe in something to give them strength to get true the tough times in there lives

Not ''I think I'', but ''I think people''.

Do you see the difference? So can you clarify which you meant? Because it sounds to me like you're speaking for everyone.

tfitzgerald

Do you see the difference? So can you clarify which you meant? Because it sounds to me like you're speaking for everyone.[/QUOTE]

Well seeing as the majority if people in Ireland are Christian they do believe so I suppose I am speaking for most people . This is my final post on this matter because I hate dealing with sarcastic know it all's. And I did say " I think" not I know I was giving my opinion but it looks as if the church bashing crowd are not even going to allow us to have an opinion now

MagicMarker

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Well seeing as the majority if people in Ireland are Christian they do believe so I suppose I am speaking for most people . This is my final post on this matter because I hate dealing with sarcastic know it all's

This is your last post on the matter because you realise that hole you're digging is getting a little too deep.

tfitzgerald

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Well seeing as the majority if people in Ireland are Christian they do believe so I suppose I am speaking for most people . This is my final post on this matter because I hate dealing with sarcastic know it all's

I'm glad that asking for clarification and pointing out inconsistencies is being a "sarcastic know it all".
:rolleyes:

Beruthiel

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Well seeing as the majority if people in Ireland are Christian they do believe so I suppose I am speaking for most people .

For a long time, the majority of people thought it perfectly ok to keep slaves.
That doesn't make it right or correct.

tfitzgerald

Beruthiel wrote: »

For a long time, the majority of people thought it perfectly ok to keep slaves.
That doesn't make it right or correct.

And because a few people do not believe in something does not make there opinion right either but on here you wouldn't think that and I have reread my post I can't see any inconsistencies

MagicMarker

tfitzgerald wrote: »

And because a few people do not believe in something does not make there opinion right either but on here you wouldn't think that and I have reread my post I can't see any inconsistencies

So answer the question posed to you. If you think people need something to believe in to get through tough times then how is it people who don't believe get through tough times?

seamus

My Dad is still kicking the religious football around in his head somewhat. As part of the older but pre-pension group he'd be one of the last generations to experience priests having absolute control and Catholicism being the be-all and end-all. He's atheist, but still has difficulty making the mental leap to admittance due to the length of time he spent under the Catholic whip.

He asked me the same question last week - "What do you turn to when times get tough?"

My answer was "Nothing. I just get on with it."

Through my earlier teens I spent a lot of time in superstition land. Early enough on I realised that praying to God never resulted in any favourable outcome. For a while I believed that if I really wanted something to happen, it wouldn't. So I made a mental effort to tell myself that I didn't really want something, and it would happen and I would be happy. Confirmation biase at it's best.
But then I grew up a little more and realised that all of the hoping and wishing in the world was incapable of altering the outcome. Que sera sera, I realised, and I could only influence things which I had a direct hand in.

Praying or "turning to" any superstition is just a convoluted form of wishing. If anything my mental well-being improved a lot (i.e. I lost a lot of the teeange angst) when I realised that there is no "grand plan" conspiring for or against me and all the bad and good things were the simple result of random chance. And there's no point in getting upset about random events.

tfitzgerald

MagicMarker wrote: »

So answer the question posed to you. If you think people need something to believe in to get through tough times then how is it people who don't believe get through tough times?

So some people go true life not needing anything or anyone. That's great for them . I never said you HAD to believe in something

wingnut32

Why not believe in family and your closest friends, they are the ones I turn to in times of need. Thing is I can see them, I can feel them, and as an added bonus they communicate back to me.

Very different from sitting there like an eejit praying to something I cant see, cant feel, and never talks back..why? Because it doesnt exist!

tfitzgerald

wingnut32 wrote: »

Why not believe in family and your closest friends, they are the ones I turn to in times of need. Thing is I can see them, I can feel them, and as an added bonus they communicate back to me.

Very different from sitting there like an eejit praying to something I cant see, cant feel, and never talks back..why? Because it doesnt exist!

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

Beruthiel

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Also the people here who believe in nothing

Nobody here said they believed in nothing. I believe in plenty.
I believe in myself, my family, my friends, the beauty of nature and the universe.

are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

You are in here in the Atheist forum trying to defend and convince us of the belief in a sky fairy.
Who's trying to convince who exactly...?

tfitzgerald

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

I would love some examples of the defensiveness

wingnut32

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Then the majority of people are eejits because they do believe in a higher power . But that's just the ejects being superstitious. Also the people here who believe in nothing are very defensive about there thoughts . I wonder who they are trying to convince

Convince? Your the one in the atheist forum...What did you expect to achieve by posting in here?