Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

rom

LSR, I just can't do it. I run at 8 min miles always. I am not out of breath doing it. I know I can run faster. have ran 7 mins miles (short distance) but my legs really like running at 8 mins. Did my Sunday run and was 1hr 12, 5 secs. I know its not a pace I can do for the full race but I can do it for 1/2 marathon and then slow a bit after that. Also I feel the first 3/4 miles are very hard and then I feel like I could go all day if I have a sip of water now and again. Run about 600 miles so far this year. Had a very low millage month in Jan with 60k but pretty steady since then. I was running 3 times a week 12 miles each time. Didn't realize that you shouldn't do that if your trying to build up the distance. Presently I am happy at running a 8 mins miles. Will try to increase my speed post marathon but is what I am doing a good thing running at a single pace all the time ? Only starting to learn like my first 10 mile race. 1 hr 22 mins. Didn't take on any water till mile 8. A bit silly. First 1/2 didn't eat at all. I seem to learn the hard way. Have ran 1/2 marathon distance without water or gels in under 1hr 50 mins in training. Was testing out Nike + (which I binned a few weeks later). A bit mad. I have also stopped wearing an ipod as I think slow songs slow you down and fast songs speed you up too much. Going to take camelpak on long runs now and take first get after 45 mins with 1/2 hr intervals after that. Do people take a gel before the race starts ? As I would have to eat early not to get a cramp. What do you think ?

ger664

Rom

Looking at the 10 mile race time and your half training time I think you should be aiming for a sub 4 hour marathon. You may even be 5 or 10 minutes quicker but lets set the bar at this until you become more comfortable with the LSR's
This gives you a race pace thats over 9 min miles and so your LSR should be done and no faster then 9:45 min miles. I agree with you about ditching the Ipod.


Gels in training and races

Part of LSR's training is to improve our bodies ability to obtain its energy requirements from Fat stores. This is achieved by running down its current fuel store (glycogen depletion). The taking of gels too early in training runs will hamper this process. Think of it like a petrol tank, when the yellow light comes on then we put in a bit of fuel.

The point at which the yellow light comes on varies from person to person and how effective their aerobic systems is. IMO most runners should be able to do a 14 mile LSR without requiring a gel. Yes you will feel shagged and slow down but this is because the body has to, in order to facilitate the generation of energy from fat stores. You should not need more the 1-2 gels on runs between 16-20 miles and do not take them until the later end of the runs.

It is more important to fill the tank back up after the run.

Races are different, we like to keep the tank topped up as much as possible. So we take on some form of simple carbs(gels, jelly babies, bannas whatever) as early as possible in the race and continue this process until the later stages or end if you can still stomach food at this point.

RayCun

menoscemo wrote: »

Plan the races to coincide with a 'drop back week', so that they can count as that week's LSR. If you are particularly dedicated (or advanced) you could also do the LSR during the week or even the day after the race instead.

Or just do a few miles recovery run the next day - it will increase your weekly mileage, get you used to running on tired legs, and help your legs recover, without putting them under the stress that an LSR would.

elvis jones

Planning my LSR this evening of 15 miles. I am thinking of using 2 gels on the road with water stashed after about 7 miles........thoughts.

It was mentioned above about getting fuel into you as soon as you finish but i can stomach is choc milk, snickers and lucozade sport.

Also what are at the aid station in DCM, water etc i mean ???

RayCun

elvis jones wrote: »

Planning my LSR this evening of 15 miles. I am thinking of using 2 gels on the road with water stashed after about 7 miles........thoughts.
It was mentioned above about getting fuel into you as soon as you finish but i can stomach is choc milk, snickers and lucozade sport.
Also what are at the aid station in DCM, water etc i mean ???

As ger said above, I try to stick to one gel on training runs - enough to get you round but little enough that your body gets better at burning fat.
Can you eat bread? Fruit? Cereal bars?

There are aid stations every 3 miles on the marathon route. Water at every station, sports drinks at 9, 12, and 18, gels at 15 and 18. I have to say, the only thing I saw last year was the water, nothing else registered.

elvis jones

RayCun wrote: »

As ger said above, I try to stick to one gel on training runs - enough to get you round but little enough that your body gets better at burning fat.
Can you eat bread? Fruit? Cereal bars?

There are aid stations every 3 miles on the marathon route. Water at every station, sports drinks at 9, 12, and 18, gels at 15 and 18. I have to say, the only thing I saw last year was the water, nothing else registered.

I've eaten a banana so i'll try that, bread is a no go and haven't tried cereal bars. I try a cereal bar and a banana tonight and see how it goes.

What gels are they, might be good to stay with what they use. I've used power bar in the past and they were ok.

ecoli

rom wrote: »

LSR, I just can't do it. I run at 8 min miles always. I am not out of breath doing it. I know I can run faster. have ran 7 mins miles (short distance) but my legs really like running at 8 mins. Did my Sunday run and was 1hr 12, 5 secs. I know its not a pace I can do for the full race but I can do it for 1/2 marathon and then slow a bit after that. Also I feel the first 3/4 miles are very hard and then I feel like I could go all day if I have a sip of water now and again. Run about 600 miles so far this year. Had a very low millage month in Jan with 60k but pretty steady since then. I was running 3 times a week 12 miles each time. Didn't realize that you shouldn't do that if your trying to build up the distance. Presently I am happy at running a 8 mins miles. Will try to increase my speed post marathon but is what I am doing a good thing running at a single pace all the time ? Only starting to learn like my first 10 mile race. 1 hr 22 mins. Didn't take on any water till mile 8. A bit silly. First 1/2 didn't eat at all. I seem to learn the hard way. Have ran 1/2 marathon distance without water or gels in under 1hr 50 mins in training. Was testing out Nike + (which I binned a few weeks later). A bit mad. I have also stopped wearing an ipod as I think slow songs slow you down and fast songs speed you up too much. Going to take camelpak on long runs now and take first get after 45 mins with 1/2 hr intervals after that. Do people take a gel before the race starts ? As I would have to eat early not to get a cramp. What do you think ?

Variety is one of the key aspects of training and progressing as an athlete. An athlete is only as good as their weakest link. If you spend all your time training at one pace, your body will adjust and become efficient at running at that pace, try to run quicker and its a shock to the system. While this might be a bit of an oversimplication the principle stands through

I had an athlete similar to you who ran all his runs at 7 min pace yet he could never quite get to the sub 3 hour mark (6.52 mile pace). Those eight seconds provided too much of a shock for him that his body was not able to cope in the latter stages of the race. I got him to slow his easy runs down by roughly 30-40 seconds per mile and got him to focus on working hard on specific days. In the space of one marathon training cycle (6 months) he went from 3.08 to 2.56.

My advice would be to slow your runs down as ger said above 8.45-9.15 would be a decent enough range for your easy run. If you want to push the pace i reckon once or twice a week add more steady state running (8 min pace or quicker) or even a progression run (getting progressively quicker). One good and simple run I have found is a midweek run with 1/3 at easy pace, 1/3 Marathon pace and the final third down at Half Marathon pace

Also my advice would try to shorten two of these runs if you can maybe do 4x6 mile runs and one LSR rather than 3 Longer runs. You will find more benefit on breaking up the mileage in terms of recovery as well as aerobic development

Think of mileage as a shoe on ice. If it is compressed into few days its like a stilettos. the fact that the pressure is focused on a smaller surface (ie more mileage less days) there is more of a chance of the ice cracking compared to pressure being well spread out (in this analogy the ice is your body in terms of breaking down with injury)

One long run is sufficent a week after this its the weekly mileage rather than higher mileage per day

run44

ecoli wrote: »

One good and simple run I have found is a midweek run with 1/3 at easy pace, 1/3 Marathon pace and the final third down at Half Marathon pace

Apologies for my ignorance. I'ver been looking back through the thread for info about half-marathon pace but can't seem to find any definition of how this relates to marathon pace. Would I be right in thinking its somewhere between easy pace and marathon pace?

Thanks

rom

Thanks guys. This week I am doing C,4,7,4,R,7,14. I am aiming for sub 4 but will be happy to finish tbh as its my first one. I know maybe I can go faster but I did the bantry bay run ( very hilly 1/2) in may and I ran too fast for the first half of it and burned out. Did the first 1/2 of it in like 46 mins so I have kindof run since then at a pace that I feel I can go all day at. I have done no speed sessions since then as my goal is just distance at the moment. I would like to get faster but I have many years left to do that. Someone was saying to me I should have a good first half as I will lose a lot of time in the last 5/6 miles. Is this good or bad advice ? I think I could slow down to like 8:30 a mile but any slower then that I'd find it very hard to do.

fluffball

Just came across this now...Fantastic help and advice many thanks.

RayCun

elvis jones wrote: »

What gels are they, might be good to stay with what they use. I've used power bar in the past and they were ok.

The gels are High 5, the standard ones, not isotonic.
The drink is the Spar isotonic sports drink, the one you get in your goodie bags after the race series.

ecoli

run44 wrote: »

Apologies for my ignorance. I'ver been looking back through the thread for info about half-marathon pace but can't seem to find any definition of how this relates to marathon pace. Would I be right in thinking its somewhere between easy pace and marathon pace?

Thanks

its actually quicker than marathon pace

Many people used the following calculators to try and figure out their paces (I would warn though these should only be used as a rough guide)

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
(most popular)
http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/training/pace

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm
(Threshold pace is in fact roughly HM pace for many people)

rainbow kirby

rom wrote: »

Someone was saying to me I should have a good first half as I will lose a lot of time in the last 5/6 miles.

Bad advice. Best way to run the marathon is to aim to run even splits (first half and second half) in roughly the same time. You still might lose time at the end, but you should be at least aiming to run even splits.

RayCun

rom wrote: »

Someone was saying to me I should have a good first half as I will lose a lot of time in the last 5/6 miles. Is this good or bad advice ? I think I could slow down to like 8:30 a mile but any slower then that I'd find it very hard to do.

If you try to bank time in the first half you are guaranteeing that you will lose a lot of time in the last few miles. You should try to run an even pace throughout. The last few miles will be harder, but if you haven't burned yourself out at the start you should be able to work through those miles without slowing down.

Mr Slow

rom wrote: »

Did my Sunday run and was 1hr 12, 5 secs. I know its not a pace I can do for the full race but I can do it for 1/2 marathon and then slow a bit after that.

Just picking up on this, if you run the first half of the marathon too fast you'll deplete your glycogen stores at a quicker rate and crash and burn in the second half. Even paced is the way to go!

ecoli

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Bad advice. Best way to run the marathon is to aim to run even splits (first half and second half) in roughly the same time. You still might lose time at the end, but you should be at least aiming to run even splits.

+1 on this. The fact you are aiming for completion rather than specific time means that even splitting is the best approach. Fact is if you go out too hard for the first half without the extra aerobic capacity of yeas of training you will find you will lose more time by positive splitting than you would with even paced running (or atleast aiming to) and then slowing in the second half. Positive split marathons for the majority of people is probably the worst approachand not one I would advocate to many marathon runners especially in their first

RayCun

rom wrote: »

I think I could slow down to like 8:30 a mile but any slower then that I'd find it very hard to do.

If you can run with a group you'll find it easier to keep a slower pace. You should be able to hold a conversation on your LSRs, so if you really are holding a conversation...

rom

RayCun wrote: »

If you can run with a group you'll find it easier to keep a slower pace. You should be able to hold a conversation on your LSRs, so if you really are holding a conversation...

Wouldn't be that relaxed doing it Hard to run with a group due to work/college/etc have a Garmin so will give it a go over the weekend. Thanks

RayCun

rom wrote: »

Wouldn't be that relaxed doing it

Well, there's the thing. LSR pace should be relaxed and easy, for a while at least.

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

Well, there's the thing. LSR pace should be relaxed and easy, for a while at least.

Hints in the name Long SLOW Run

jamesmurphy1

Hi lads I am following this thread its brilliant I am running my 2nd DCM was going great last year but the last 5 miles draggred out was hoping for 4.30 ended up 4.57. Doing the 10mile in the park soon done it lasy year in 94 mins finished very fast last mile as i THNK i paced myself well Q what time should I hope for the 10mile if I would like a 4.30 DCM using HH novice 2 in week 11 a little ahead of myself as i would like to get 2 X 20 mile runs if possible is this a bit to over the top

Mr Slow

jamesmurphy1 wrote: »

Hi lads I am following this thread its brilliant I am running my 2nd DCM was going great last year but the last 5 miles draggred out was hoping for 4.30 ended up 4.57. Doing the 10mile in the park soon done it lasy year in 94 mins finished very fast last mile as i THNK i paced myself well Q what time should I hope for the 10mile if I would like a 4.30 DCM using HH novice 2 in week 11 a little ahead of myself as i would like to get 2 X 20 mile runs if possible is this a bit to over the top

Based on your Clontarf half you should be going for sub 90 mins for your 10 mile. Did you run with the pacers in Clontarf?

elvis jones

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Bad advice. Best way to run the marathon is to aim to run even splits (first half and second half) in roughly the same time. You still might lose time at the end, but you should be at least aiming to run even splits.

I'm aiming for 4 x 10km with a 2 km finish to glory :D

ger664

Unless you have a lot of running under your belt, most on-line race predictor calculators are going to spite out a marathon time that's too quick for most first timers. This will make you go out too fast and no have a very pleasent experience for the last 6 miles.

Hals formulae of 5 times your recent 10K time is a much better time to use. You can always stick your half/10 mile time into McMillan Calculator and use the resulting 10K time * 5 as well.

RayCun

Twice your half marathon time plus 10% seems reasonable too.

ecoli

ger664 wrote: »

Unless you have a lot of running under your belt, most on-line race predictor calculators are going to spite out a marathon time that's too quick for most first timers. This will make you go out too fast and no have a very pleasent experience for the last 6 miles.

Hals formulae of 5 times your recent 10K time is a much better time to use. You can always stick your half/10 mile time into McMillan Calculator and use the resulting 10K time * 5 as well.

I think you are right here which is why you should use them as rough guides. The fact is that your short distance times are going to spit out faster marathon times yet because many novice athletes havent the aerobic capacity built up to be fully trained for the marathon mean there will always be significant drop off which these calculators do not allow for.

Calculators are predictors of what you should be running for each event if you are training specifically for that event.

You are not going to develop enough aerobically in one marathon cycle to run to your potential and as such you must make allowances for this when dictating pace.

Mr Slow

RayCun wrote: »

Twice your half marathon time plus 10% seems reasonable too.

Someone said to me once 'Twice your half plus a half hour' to run a conservative first marathon.

jamesmurphy1

Mr Slow wrote: »

Based on your Clontarf half you should be going for sub 90 mins for your 10 mile. Did you run with the pacers in Clontarf?

I ran clontarf in 02.01 which I was very happy with I tried to keep up with the 2 hour pacers but found them a bit to fast in the early stages

jamesmurphy1

ger664 wrote: »

Unless you have a lot of running under your belt, most on-line race predictor calculators are going to spite out a marathon time that's too quick for most first timers. This will make you go out too fast and no have a very pleasent experience for the last 6 miles.

Hals formulae of 5 times your recent 10K time is a much better time to use. You can always stick your half/10 mile time into McMillan Calculator and use the resulting 10K time * 5 as well.

Thanks for your help the more times I hear the more confusing it gets I did a 10K this year in 49.11 could not have finished any quicker as a ready reconer that would put my marathon at 04.10 I know I have no hope of this actually I enjoyed the first one so much I will be just happy to finish my real interest in time is so can pace myself early thanks again for all the help

Mr Slow

jamesmurphy1 wrote: »

I ran clontarf in 02.01 which I was very happy with I tried to keep up with the 2 hour pacers but found them a bit to fast in the early stages

We ran even splits for 1:59:30!

I thought we may have chatted early on but it must have been someone else.