Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

Mr Slow

RayCun wrote: »

Not really
The Higdon plan has 4,9,5 before the first 18 miler, and 5,10,5 before the 20 miler. There's no drop off in the midweek miles until the taper starts.

I'm worried now, of late my advice has gone unchallenged!:eek:

run44

RayCun wrote: »

Not really
The Higdon plan has 4,9,5 before the first 18 miler, and 5,10,5 before the 20 miler. There's no drop off in the midweek miles until the taper starts.

Great, thank you!

Younganne

RayCun wrote: »

Not really
The Higdon plan has 4,9,5 before the first 18 miler, and 5,10,5 before the 20 miler. There's no drop off in the midweek miles until the taper starts.

Ray, I'm following HH novice 2, just a question regarding the mileage, before the 20m LSR the weekly milage is 5, 5, 5 whereas the novice 1 is 5,10, 5. why is there a difference, is it to do with midweek run being at PMP, or am i missing something?.

Can you clarify what pace i should be training at?

Tuesday - 4.29m @ 10.41 avg pace
Wednesday - 7.09m @ 10.15 avg pace
Thur - 4.22m @ 9.21 avg pace
My last LSR was 12.1m @ 11.05

I tried today to go a lot slower and managed 4.23m @ 10.39 avg pace
To sum up - I know midweek is at PMP (10 min p.m for 4.30 marathon)
and LST should be at about 11 - 11.30 pace, but what are tue & thur paces....

One more question:o I'm aiming for 4.30 in DCM, so what should i be aiming for the 1/2 marathon...i was hoping to improve on 2.03.50 from last yr

all advice gladly welcomed!:D

run44

Younganne wrote: »

Ray, I'm following HH novice 2, just a question regarding the mileage, before the 20m LSR the weekly milage is 5, 5, 5 whereas the novice 1 is 5,10, 5. why is there a difference, is it to do with midweek run being at PMP, or am i missing something?.

Ah yes, thats where I got this from! I've been mixing HH1 and HH2 Novice plans.

RayCun

Younganne wrote: »

To sum up - I know midweek is at PMP (10 min p.m for 4.30 marathon)
and LST should be at about 11 - 11.30 pace, but what are tue & thur paces....

One more question:o I'm aiming for 4.30 in DCM, so what should i be aiming for the 1/2 marathon...i was hoping to improve on 2.03.50 from last yr

The Tuesday and Thursday runs should be at an easy pace, around the same pace as your LSR.
I'd go for sub-2 hours in the half. Twice that +10% is 4.24, close enough to your marathon target, plus you get the benefit of pacers and the boost of a PB.

PDCAT

Hi Folks

This is a question for the more experience runner's that may be reading this. I'm training for first Marathon using HH Novice 1.
Have reached this far (week 10) without missing any run's.
However, this past couple of weeks, my legs have started to feel tired.

It came to a head this week, whereby i delayed my long midweek run from Tuesday to Wednesday and ran on Grass to help the legs.
Last night was running on treadmill and my legs are really tired & weak and could barely complete at recovery pace.

It's not an injury as i've encountered this before. Normally it has occurred after my mileage has increased or i have been running alot on the road.

Basically, my lower legs (both right & left), shin & ankle seem really weak as if their is no strength in them. This makes it very hard/uncomfortable to run on them. At times i feel like i'm shuffling along.

As i said, it's not an injury. I'm just not sure why legs feel like this.
Couple of question's.

Can Leg strengthening exercises improve this?
Can better Nutrition improve this?
Could this be a case of my legs not recovering sufficiently from previous run's.

I have a 15 Miler tomorrow morning (unfortunately can't do this run on Sunday or Monday). At the moment, i can't see how my legs could possibly complete even 5 miles. Contemplated trying to run this on Grass but again not sure if i could complete this.

Should i take a few day's off and rest the legs?
Should i just get on with it and try and run the 15 miler?

Thanks

macinalli

PDCAT wrote: »

I have a 15 Miler tomorrow morning (unfortunately can't do this run on Sunday or Monday). At the moment, i can't see how my legs could possibly complete even 5 miles. Contemplated trying to run this on Grass but again not sure if i could complete this.

Should i take a few day's off and rest the legs?
Should i just get on with it and try and run the 15 miler

It's not an easy one to answer. Marathon training is pretty demanding and there's a chance that you could be simply run down from the mileage (well done on not missing any sessions!). If it's a case of just being very tired, then I'd say that's par for the course and just get on with it. If you think it might be more than that, then it could be wise to take a few days off & recover. There's no point burying yourself, picking up some sort of infection (v common with run-down runners) and being out for 2 weeks instead of 2 days.

A couple of things you suggested above:
Nutrition - v important. It's not just a case of eating lots of carbs, make sure you have lots of fruit & veg as well. If you are tired a lot, then you need to make sure not to become anaemic - have lots of iron-rich veg with your meals (spinach, cabbage, broccoli, chickpeas, lentils etc)
Strengthening - also important, but you need to know what needs strengthening. As this is your first marathon you could well be carrying some niggles at this stage and a trip to the physio might not be a bad idea. Check out this forum for tips/recommendations on finding a good physio - make sure you get one that understands running!

tHE vAGGABOND

I ran for *ages* with both iPhone [Nike Plus App] and the Garmin - I have almost 700 miles on the nike plus app.

Eventually I kept the phone with me, as I had so many miles on it, and I liked the way it records your record times, and the tacky "that was your fastest 10k good job" messages it gives you - sad I know, but positive reinforcement works

But alas I started to want to leave phone behind as I dont want to be contactable when running, as Im contactable in 10 ways every other minute of the day and the straw which broke the camels back for me was that I do more training running now with no music, since all races are done like that...

Im now Garmin only, and phone is at home

[I throw my Garmin stuff up onto DailyMile.com - and that breaks down the fastest this and best that stats for me - Im a nerd and like that stuff ]

BobMac104

PDCAT wrote: »

Hi Folks

This is a question for the more experience runner's that may be reading this. I'm training for first Marathon using HH Novice 1.
Have reached this far (week 10) without missing any run's.
However, this past couple of weeks, my legs have started to feel tired.

It came to a head this week, whereby i delayed my long midweek run from Tuesday to Wednesday and ran on Grass to help the legs.
Last night was running on treadmill and my legs are really tired & weak and could barely complete at recovery pace.

It's not an injury as i've encountered this before. Normally it has occurred after my mileage has increased or i have been running alot on the road.

Basically, my lower legs (both right & left), shin & ankle seem really weak as if their is no strength in them. This makes it very hard/uncomfortable to run on them. At times i feel like i'm shuffling along.

As i said, it's not an injury. I'm just not sure why legs feel like this.
Couple of question's.

Can Leg strengthening exercises improve this?
Can better Nutrition improve this?
Could this be a case of my legs not recovering sufficiently from previous run's.

I have a 15 Miler tomorrow morning (unfortunately can't do this run on Sunday or Monday). At the moment, i can't see how my legs could possibly complete even 5 miles. Contemplated trying to run this on Grass but again not sure if i could complete this.

Should i take a few day's off and rest the legs?
Should i just get on with it and try and run the 15 miler?

Thanks

I feel your pain man. I am pretty fecked myself. Like you I have been pretty diciplined in sticking to what I want to get done during the week.It is taking it toll and it does knock the confidence a bit.

A sports massage may not be the worst thing for ya. A day off running where you eat alot get a massage and go to bed early may be in order and you could reasess after that.

ger664

PDCAT wrote: »

Hi Folks

This is a question for the more experience runner's that may be reading this. I'm training for first Marathon using HH Novice 1.
Have reached this far (week 10) without missing any run's.
However, this past couple of weeks, my legs have started to feel tired.

It came to a head this week, whereby i delayed my long midweek run from Tuesday to Wednesday and ran on Grass to help the legs.
Last night was running on treadmill and my legs are really tired & weak and could barely complete at recovery pace.

It's not an injury as i've encountered this before. Normally it has occurred after my mileage has increased or i have been running alot on the road.

Basically, my lower legs (both right & left), shin & ankle seem really weak as if their is no strength in them. This makes it very hard/uncomfortable to run on them. At times i feel like i'm shuffling along.

As i said, it's not an injury. I'm just not sure why legs feel like this.
Couple of question's.

Can Leg strengthening exercises improve this?
Can better Nutrition improve this?
Could this be a case of my legs not recovering sufficiently from previous run's.

I have a 15 Miler tomorrow morning (unfortunately can't do this run on Sunday or Monday). At the moment, i can't see how my legs could possibly complete even 5 miles. Contemplated trying to run this on Grass but again not sure if i could complete this.

Should i take a few day's off and rest the legs?
Should i just get on with it and try and run the 15 miler?

Thanks

Sounds very like your Iron levels are down to me. Get them checked by your GP and make sure he/she checks both your hemoglobin and serum ferritin levels.

Others things to help with this,

Add lean red meat or dark poultry to your diet
Replace coffee/tea at mealtimes with Vit C drink of your choice

PDCAT

Yeah Bob. Only occurred to me this morning regarding sports massage. Might look into see, if i can get one tomorrow.

It's frustrating as apart from the two lower legs, i'm feel in great shape and ready to go. It's just they keep letting me down. They just feel really weak, not strength in them.

Haven't decided yet what to do this weekend. I'm afraid to miss the LSR as tomorrow was the step up for me in my plan.
Previously my farthest run was 12.25 miles. I was really looking forward to the 15miler. Not sure if missing this would set me back too far.

Having said that, i don't want to run this and be fecked for a longer time.

Might see how the legs are tomorrow and decide. Was thinking would it be a good idea to run 15 miler tomorrow and take a week off and rest the legs completely.
Hopefully come back refreshed.

PDCAT

ger664 wrote: »

Sounds very like your Iron levels are down to me. Get them checked by your GP and make sure he/she checks both your hemoglobin and serum ferritin levels.

Others things to help with this,

Add lean red meat or dark poultry to your diet
Replace coffee/tea at mealtimes with Vit C drink of your choice

Thanks Ger. My diet isn't the best. Don't eat enough fruit and Veg. Also drink a bit of tea.

Regarding Iron Levels - possibly something i should look at. My energy level's are actually high - it's just my lower legs that seem to be lacking any strength. Is it possible that i'm not recovering quick enough from my run's or my calf muscle's are just weak.

BobMac104

You probably dont need a whole week off. If you feel able for the 15 miler then go for it. After your weekend is over just do a very slow 3 miles recovery run and see how you are.

at a risk of repeating myself though i think we must remember to eat properly. my shiney new garmin told me i burned ~1700 calories last night add that to 2 500 and i am realising that iam not eating nearly enough.

run44

BobMac104 wrote: »

i ordered one myself aswell yesterday. amazon for 97 pounds. hoping it will get here by the weekend though as i am off on holidays and it would be very handy.

I resisted getting one long enough thinking that all the great runners never had access to one, but i caved as they seem to be very handy for someone training on their own

BobMac, did your Garmin arrive in time? Just got mine this morning, so glad that I'll have it for the LSR tomorrow. Will likely be playing with it to try to figure it out for the rest of today!

RayCun

It's a tough call.
Marathon training is exhausting, it's as simple as that, so even if everything is going perfectly you are going to be tired. This month is the worst - you're getting close to peak weekly mileage, and you have a lot of miles in the legs already, so your energy levels will be at their lowest. (You'll be reducing the distances again in the weeks coming up to the marathon, and getting some energy back)
On the other hand, if you push too hard you will make yourself weaker, not stronger. You're better off starting the marathon a little bit undertrained than a little bit overtrained, so taking an extra recovery week isn't really a big deal. Most people will miss some runs along the way and still do fine.

Looking at your training log, you ran the Frank Duffy two weeks ago, followed by a 4 mile last weekend, and you tried a tempo run yesterday. Maybe you just need to keep your paces slow and easy for a while?

PDCAT

RayCun wrote: »

It's a tough call.
Marathon training is exhausting, it's as simple as that, so even if everything is going perfectly you are going to be tired. This month is the worst - you're getting close to peak weekly mileage, and you have a lot of miles in the legs already, so your energy levels will be at their lowest. (You'll be reducing the distances again in the weeks coming up to the marathon, and getting some energy back)
On the other hand, if you push too hard you will make yourself weaker, not stronger. You're better off starting the marathon a little bit undertrained than a little bit overtrained, so taking an extra recovery week isn't really a big deal. Most people will miss some runs along the way and still do fine.

Looking at your training log, you ran the Frank Duffy two weeks ago, followed by a 4 mile last weekend, and you tried a tempo run yesterday. Maybe you just need to keep your paces slow and easy for a while?

Yeah thanks Ray. I was doing fine up until the Frank Duffy. After that 10 mile run at race pace for me, my legs haven't been the best and i have kept to the plan for fear of missing any miles.
I ran 4 mile race last week with 4 miles warm up/down (8 in total). Again, running at race pace has taken alot out of the legs.

Will make a decision tomorrow morning and see how the legs are.
If they are fine (which i doubt), i will run the 15miler on grass and re assess my plan's for next week. If leg's are still the same tomorrow morning, i may take a few day's off from running in order for them to get refreshed.

Got a pair of Compression Socks yesterday. Will try them out on my next run. Don't think, they will help the legs as it looks like my legs are just really tired/weak.

pistol_75

Would have to agree with Ray. There is nothing easy about marathon training. I would treat the LSR as the most important run of the week so I wouild try and get this in even if it is slower than normal.

Very often you will feel like crap and stiff for the first couple of miles of your LSR but as the time passes your legs improve as well.

If you feel you need to take a rest I would be inclined to give one of the shorter runs during the week a miss.

Mr Slow

PDCAT wrote: »

Got a pair of Compression Socks yesterday. Will try them out on my next run. Don't think, they will help the legs as it looks like my legs are just really tired/weak.

Get thee into an ice bath to detoxify and refresh your legs, when you get out put on the compression socks and leave them on for a few hours, this will force fresh blood through your tired muscles aiding recovery. It's even worth throwing them on when you go to bed!

BobMac104

run44 wrote: »

BobMac, did your Garmin arrive in time? Just got mine this morning, so glad that I'll have it for the LSR tomorrow. Will likely be playing with it to try to figure it out for the rest of today!

Yes it did! It actually arrived yesterday morning. Very speedy delivery! Its very easy to use in fairness. I was able to display the data i wanted for my run last night and i set up the lap function so it told me my pace for the previous mile etc. Very cool. I had overall time , distance , pace and last lap pace. I think i will change the last lap pace to average pace maybe.

when i started running last night I did feel a bit like robocop i must admit and yes i was looking at the thing every 200 yards! but after 4 or 5 miles i was only looking at it when the buzzer went off.

in terms of making me run smarter.....it didnt do much last night. went out at a nice controlled pace and for whatever reason i must have tried to "make up the time that i lost from marathon pace" in the second half of the run so ended up doing the first half of the run at 9.30 9.40 pace then the second half was high 8 40 8 50's. I partially blame the fact that i couldnt find the light and couldnt read the thing untill i met a street light (which is very rare where i run) so maybe that was it.I figured it out after though.

overall happy out!! It will be very handy to have on holidays in places where i dont know.

rom

Mr Slow wrote: »

Get thee into an ice bath to detoxify and refresh your legs, when you get out put on the compression socks and leave them on for a few hours, this will force fresh blood through your tired muscles aiding recovery. It's even worth throwing them on when you go to bed!

Drink lots of fluid also to flush out the lactic acid.

Mr Slow

rom wrote: »

Drink lots of fluid also to flush out the lactic acid.

Generally lactic acid is gone a few hours after exercise, D.O.M.S. is the soreness people feel in the few days after strenuous exercise, I find ice baths invaluable for this also.

rom

Mr Slow wrote: »

Generally lactic acid is gone a few hours after exercise, D.O.M.S. is the soreness people feel in the few days after strenuous exercise, I find ice baths invaluable for this also.

I missed that part. I though it was a few hrs after.

PDCAT

Mr Slow wrote: »

Generally lactic acid is gone a few hours after exercise, D.O.M.S. is the soreness people feel in the few days after strenuous exercise, I find ice baths invaluable for this also.

Thanks Mr Slow. That link gives some interesting insight. Might try the ice bath tonight along with compression socks in the leaba and see how the legs are in the morning.

RayCun

BobMac104 wrote: »

I partially blame the fact that i couldnt find the light

on a 305? The power button

BobMac104

RayCun wrote: »

on a 305? The power button

Ha I know i figured it out when i got home!! I just didnt want to go pushing buttons while i was out especially not the power button:pac:.

Younganne

When I got my Garmin 305 last year, I used it 2 or 3 times before the Race series - Half Marathon and I thought I knew how to use it,… but when I put it on for the race I couldn’t find the reset button and didn’t want to ask anyone and look like a fool, so just let it add to my previous run……mentioned it in work the following week to one of the lads that had one and he laughed and pointed to the “reset” button…..it couldn’t be any clearer but with nerves and everything I couldn’t see it on the day ……:eek:

RayCun

Name|Sessions Completed|This Week|Total so far|Comments
Vagga|||232 miles||
Nules10|| |294.5||
liamog|||203.7 miles||
Concerned2|||405.74 miles||
cr17|| |167 miles| |
Househunter| | |330.7 miles| |
Mr Abbey|||164miles| |
PDCAT| ||180.6m|
TomD101| | |138.1miles since 04/07| |
ShivDCM|||226m||
BobMac104| | |270.05 ||
red face dave|||100||
Younganne|||127m||
rom| |1 |235.16 miles| |
TiptoeMushroom|| |163km since June 22nd. | |
special1977| | |122| |
mazken| | |159.8 miles||
run44 (Aoife)|||330.7m total||
jamesmurphy1|||240miles| |
dylbert|||128.5||
maggiemissy|||176 miles||
specialk1977|||122| |

RayCun

Monday | Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
rest|4m/6.5k|8m/13k|4m/6.5k|rest|16m/26k|cross


Another long LSR coming up, but at least you can look forward to the recovery week afterwards...

run44

Name|Sessions Completed|This Week|Total so far|Comments
Vagga|||232 miles||
Nules10|| |294.5||
liamog|||203.7 miles||
Concerned2|||405.74 miles||
cr17|| |167 miles| |
Househunter| | |330.7 miles| |
Mr Abbey|||164miles| |
PDCAT| ||180.6m|
TomD101| | |138.1miles since 04/07| |
ShivDCM|||226m||
BobMac104| | |270.05 ||
red face dave|||100||
Younganne|||127m||
rom| |1 |235.16 miles| |
TiptoeMushroom|| |163km since June 22nd. | |
special1977| | |122| |
mazken| | |159.8 miles||
run44 (Aoife)|4|35.8 miles|366.5 miles total|Long 18m run today, knackered afterwards but felt good to survive it!|
jamesmurphy1|||240miles| |
dylbert|||128.5||
maggiemissy|||176 miles||
specialk1977|||122| |

shivDCM

Name|Sessions Completed|This Week|Total so far|Comments
Vagga|||232 miles||
Nules10|| |294.5||
liamog|||203.7 miles||
Concerned2|||405.74 miles||
cr17|| |167 miles| |
Househunter| | |330.7 miles| |
Mr Abbey|||164miles| |
PDCAT| ||180.6m|
TomD101| | |138.1miles since 04/07| |
ShivDCM|4|35|261m||
BobMac104| | |270.05 ||
red face dave|||100||
Younganne|||127m||
rom| |1 |235.16 miles| |
TiptoeMushroom|| |163km since June 22nd. | |
special1977| | |122| |
mazken| | |159.8 miles||
run44 (Aoife)|||330.7m total||
jamesmurphy1|||240miles| |
dylbert|||128.5||
maggiemissy|||176 miles||
specialk1977|||122| |